I asked my Introduction Leader and Seminar Leader wannabe ex-girlfriend (yes she is now officially my ex- for those who read my other posts) why Landmark is concentrated over 3 days fro, 9 am to midnight sitting on uncomfortable chairs in an uncomfortable room etc... that results in physical discomfort and sleep deprivation.

She answered very simply “because their defenses collapse” !!!

This confirms the Forum leader does it deliberately and knowingly, but she thinks it’s for their own good, so that the participant can get the message that will transform their life for the better. I insisted that if she cares for people, she should also look at the detrimental effects Landmark has on many people before enrolling more and more, but she objected aggressively and refused to listen to anything (this is not the first time). I told her firmly that I consider Landmark as a cult, and that I will not get trapped by their close system of logic and techniques. She kicked me out of her apartment after trying some more enrolling tricks on me that didn’t work.

The more I learn about all of this, the more I am outraged.

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midonov123
I asked my Introduction Leader and Seminar Leader wannabe ex-girlfriend (yes she is now officially my ex- for those who read my other posts) why Landmark is concentrated over 3 days fro, 9 am to midnight sitting on uncomfortable chairs in an uncomfortable room etc... that results in physical discomfort and sleep deprivation.

She answered very simply “because their defenses collapse” !!!

This confirms the Forum leader does it deliberately and knowingly, but she thinks it’s for their own good, so that the participant can get the message that will transform their life for the better. I insisted that if she cares for people, she should also look at the detrimental effects Landmark has on many people before enrolling more and more, but she objected aggressively and refused to listen to anything (this is not the first time). I told her firmly that I consider Landmark as a cult, and that I will not get trapped by their close system of logic and techniques. She kicked me out of her apartment after trying some more enrolling tricks on me that didn’t work.

The more I learn about all of this, the more I am outraged.

Good for you for sticking to what you have found to be true. Reality eventually trumps the denial of what is real.

-- Caligari

Hi Michael,

[She kicked me out of her apartment after trying some more enrolling tricks on me that didn’t work.]


If you look at the bizarre effects of Landmark taking over the minds and personalities of many of their followers, you realize that the "new" personalities, the ~transformed~ selves, the ~aware~ and "improved" minds are reflections or often replicas of Werner Erhard's. Amazing, but even after all these years and all the evidence, Landmark is still churning out little carbon-copies of their "founder," a low-life slicko who resorted to temper tantrums, screaming fits of rage, and the most abusive and cruel types of insults you can imagine. If you follow along the path of Landmark "logic," you'd think these people would be above that sort of nasty, childish, reaction, but because Werner Erhard set the bar for behavior, and Landmark is in no way a real "enlightenment" or "wisdom" "program," it is the same level as his own. Even though he is, supposedly, long out of the picture, his presence is very real in the followers of his "work." What's most disturbing is how very easily some "normal" people can assume these traits or come to believe that these tactics are acceptable. There must be a very immature slot in a lot of people's minds into which Landmark can insert its extremely malicious bit of code. The more friends and family you alienate, the more dependent you will be on them and their group for social and emotional support and the more they can mold (coach) you into a servant for Werner.


Ellen

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She answered very simply “because their defenses collapse” !!!

I am surprised she said that, when I was training to be an introduction leader we were always told the "real" reason was because people wanted to do the course with out taking to much out of their life.

having said that her answer is the actual truth, the seating, the time frame, everything is designed to break your defences.

I remember reviewing the forum as a staff member and I was very sick with the flu, I remained in the room the whole time, with a big box of tissues and other cold stuff. (I hate to think who got sick because of me)

I look back and think how freaking crazy was I that I refused to leave the room to go to the bathroom, I sat in (the most uncomfortable) chairs for 12 hours a day feeling miserable to keep my integrity????

I should have been at home in bed with a hot water bottle but I didn't pull out and do that I stayed and completed the Forum again.

just wanted to thank everyone for their replies. lots of helpful info, personal accounts, advice, links--all good stuff. thank you. will take some of you up on your offers to email you personally. i need support as i sort through this and figure out whatever i'm supposed to be getting from this experience.

i do remember in the forum how we were told if we left the room, even for a little bit, they weren't to be held responsible for anything we missed, results we didn't achieve, whatever. that gave me pause, but because i was dealing w/a back injury, i got up whenever i felt the need. being an rn, i've been trained to ignore my body's distress signals and have suffered the consequences, so i wasn't about to injure or torture myself. although i'd informed them beforehand that i might need breaks from time to time, i felt i could sense disapproval, like maybe i appeared to be not taking it seriously enough.

i'm at work, so i can't post much more right now, but really am grateful for everyone sharing their experiences and thoughts. :)

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sonnie_dee
I am surprised she said that, when I was training to be an introduction leader we were always told the "real" reason was because people wanted to do the course with out taking to much out of their life.

I was surprised to. A few months ago, she said exactly what you say above - that it's because that's waht people want or something like that. Now she's telling the truth!!!

I think maybe I was able to "transform" her but just a tiny bit by my way of reasoning or perhaps "resisting". Enough for her to admit the above, and surprisingly, enough for having her to admit that "maybe Landmark is a cult". But then she says "It's the best cult on earth"!!!

But the ultimate challenge was to have her read a chapter of the book "Cults in our midst" by Margaret Singer (the uncensored chapter "Intruding the Workplace" available on rickross website). She said she read it after I insisted we could sit down and talk after she did, but she send me an email saying only:

"I read it. I know this is what you think Landmark is. It is not."

My answer was that, with all due respect, I trust Dr. Singer analysis way better than hers.

Does anyone think progress was made on this person? Is it possible that I was on the way to debrief her? I've actually given up on her to save myself, but I can only notice a shift in her discourse which is indicative that "something" is going on in her mind (she's been fighting her denons).


Michael D.

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elena
If you look at the bizarre effects of Landmark taking over the minds and personalities of many of their followers, you realize that the "new" personalities, the ~transformed~ selves, the ~aware~ and "improved" minds are reflections or often replicas of Werner Erhard's.
Ellen

Elena,

Your analysis is much interesting and scary! It reminds me of the movie "The invasion of the body snatchers". Here we should change the name to "Invasion of the mind snatchers".

It looks as if the human brain is very fragile, like the rest of our body and organs. There is something in your analysis that is remarquable. I think it should be developed and published in scientific journals. I will do some research to see if I can find anything similar along those line that has already been published. Wow. You are brilliant!

Michael D.

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maidynfall
just wanted to thank everyone for their replies. lots of helpful info, personal accounts, advice, links--all good stuff. thank you. will take some of you up on your offers to email you personally. i need support as i sort through this and figure out whatever i'm supposed to be getting from this experience.

i do remember in the forum how we were told if we left the room, even for a little bit, they weren't to be held responsible for anything we missed, results we didn't achieve, whatever. that gave me pause, but because i was dealing w/a back injury, i got up whenever i felt the need. being an rn, i've been trained to ignore my body's distress signals and have suffered the consequences, so i wasn't about to injure or torture myself. although i'd informed them beforehand that i might need breaks from time to time, i felt i could sense disapproval, like maybe i appeared to be not taking it seriously enough.

i'm at work, so i can't post much more right now, but really am grateful for everyone sharing their experiences and thoughts. :)

Thank you for taking your own well-being and mind seriously. Remember that it is your own life and future. I encourage you to act in your own interest and what you determine as real and true, rather than what others tell you to see, think and feel.

Good luck,

Caligari

[It looks as if the human brain is very fragile, like the rest of our body and organs. There is something in your analysis that is remarquable. I think it should be developed and published in scientific journals. I will do some research to see if I can find anything similar along those line that has already been published. Wow. You are brilliant!

Michael D.[/quote]


LOL...Thanks, but I haven't written anything that hasn't been said before, said better than I can, and said by people who know a whole lot more about it than I do. "Snapping" comes to mind. Flo Conway and Jim Siegelman sniffed out this bit of cult programming in est long before most others did. Also, Mark Brewer, Jesse Kornbluth, Peter Marin, and many others. It's hard to start a cult without a charismatic leader, and the effect of these "leaders" can be overwhelming to some people. In "The Wrong Way Home," Deikman talks about the universal (and immature) need for a father-figure, or the "strong father" so many feel the lack of. And also Steven Pressman talks about the tendency of many est insiders to mimic Erhard's style, mannerisms, and personality. He demanded it. Those who balked or resisted or tried to maintain their own style had a very tough time. Some ex-members have talked about using tapes and video and rehearsing endlessly in the mirror to "re-create" his every move and inflection. It's nothing specific to est, of course. The narcissism of most cult leaders demands this type of reflection.

It's not for nothing that the metaphors of mind-virus and mind-rape have persisted. Both carry an implication that part of the "guru" is taken in and retained by the follower.


Ellen

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Does anyone think progress was made on this person? Is it possible that I was on the way to debrief her? I've actually given up on her to save myself, but I can only notice a shift in her discourse which is indicative that "something" is going on in her mind (she's been fighting her denons).

My experience is that it takes a lot of little things to finally break through.. but one little thing like what she said "because their defences will collapse" show that underneath the 'landmark speak' she still has some of her own critical thinking

I found that when I was becoming more and more unhappy about what I saw, i fought against myself while at the same time spoke what I saw was the truth about landmark. It takes a long time (for me it was years) before the last thread was broken and until that time i still believed everything I had been taught.

Elena

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Some ex-members have talked about using tapes and video and rehearsing endlessly in the mirror to "re-create" his every move and inflection

this is interesting because this is something they still do! although not to erhard, they use senior landmark forum leaders and of course Harry Rosenberg (erhards brother) to make the tapes and videos etc.