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BraveHeart

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bjw

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BraveHeart
What do you mean by "Lordship Commitment"?

& BJW
What part of the gospel message are you rejecting? Or maybe you could explane, what your understanding is of how people can be saved by God. The reason I say this, is in many churches people use phrases that end up having multiple meanings. I'm asking this in an effort to understand and have clarity.

This is a good example of what I was talking about. I do not reject any of the gospel because John MacArthur does not teach the gospel. It is a counseling cult that masquerades as Christianity, with a merit, works-based system in which one must do more and more, getting better and better all the time or else they are not saved.

BJW Im sure I now understand where you are coming from. That's like saying
"BJW, its so good to hear that you stopped beating your wife, kids & the dog and you stopped smoking pot."
I understand you are rejecting Jesus, because of something that happened at John MacArthur's church.

Right, and I never did reject Jesus, only MacArthur's theological system. I do not blame Jesus for what I went through there.

It's like I was saying about my friend that quit GCC 6 months before I did. He was shocked when I told him that all his friends at GCC were told that he renounced Christianity when he left. This wasn't the truth at all, he just went back to his old church.

Let's go back to this conversation with MacArthur:

I talked to John MacArthur about George's views in his office and he told me that he knew I loved my father, but it was time I made a choice.

What prompted this conversation?

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isitacult?
Let's go back to this conversation with MacArthur:

I talked to John MacArthur about George's views in his office and he told me that he knew I loved my father, but it was time I made a choice.

What prompted this conversation?

At the time my roomates were concerned about my salvation because I was reading the Bob George books that my father was sending me, and I was having more and more doubts about MacArthur's views. I was also getting fed up with other students/members telling me I wasn't saved, so I decided to make an appointment to talk to MacArthur personally, and this situation also concerned MacArthur because my roomates knew that Bob George was a personal friend of my father's.

John MacArthur surprised me because he asked me a series of questions and said based on what I told him he thought I was saved. He did say that my father was caught up in a belief that says "Let go and let God" and was a false doctrine. He said he knew I loved my dad but it was time I made a choice. My father was outraged by this and wanted me to leave then, which I should have. One good thing was that Macarthur telling me I was saved gave me some ammo against his followers that continously told me I wasn't, but unfortunately that didn't last long. There were still many that kept telling me I was lost. I think this shows the cultic nature of this group.

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archaeologist
i find it dangerous to label individual churches as cultic. yes the evangelicals tend to elevate their spiritual leaders to a high status but that doesn't mean they have gone cultic for many of those leaders would and do refuse such promotion.

sometimes the leader gets too big a head and just needs a good head slap to help him regain his proper perspective. then in reading some of these posts, i wonder if those complaining abolut a church is just responding to a slight and wants to get even. i do not know much about MAcarthur but have seen him on larry king live and was not impressed with his answers but then toomany christian leaders play politics with their responses and do not present the truth in those interviews.

In my opinion what makes this church a cult is not necessarily its doctrine or the fact that they have elevated MacArthur to such a high status, but is the way the doctrine is presented and how the church and college is ran. I think if they would be up front and open with potential students and members about what they teach, what will be expected of them in the group, and how John MacArthur and his teachings are viewed, it would be less cultlike and more like a standard religion. I think the whole mind-control process, the way you are slowly indoctrinated, and the authoritarian way that every aspect of your life is controlled by the group is what makes it a cult.

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bjw
One good thing was that Macarthur telling me I was saved gave me some ammo against his followers that continously told me I wasn't, but unfortunately that didn't last long. There were still many that kept telling me I was lost.

That is interesting. His followers were more "MacArthurish" than MacArthur! And that makes me wonder if his followers are more cultic than he is himself. Maybe he's unintentionally created a monster and what we see here is the law of unintended consequences? Or maybe he is inconsistent. Maybe he didn't really exactly change his theology with Angelica, but the reality is that the theology that seems so logical and seems to work so well on paper and in the classroom fails when it must be applied in real life. By all rights he should have said you were not saved if you were "unrepentant" in reading Bob George who teaches false doctrine and an allegedly unsaving gospel. He should have at least questioned it until you showed the proper "fruit".

Do you have any ideas on why MacArthur has this kind of effect on people, that his organization would be cultic? What is it about him that causes this? What is the dynamic? And how do you think it was that you were protected from being caught up in it?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/13/2010 05:25AM by isitacult?.

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isitacult?

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bjw
One good thing was that Macarthur telling me I was saved gave me some ammo against his followers that continously told me I wasn't, but unfortunately that didn't last long. There were still many that kept telling me I was lost.

That is interesting. His followers were more "MacArthurish" than MacArthur! And that makes me wonder if his followers are more cultic than he is himself. Maybe he's unintentionally created a monster and what we see here is the law of unintended consequences? Or maybe he is inconsistent. Maybe he didn't really exactly change his theology with Angelica, but the reality is that the theology that seems so logical and seems to work so well on paper and in the classroom fails when it must be applied in real life. By all rights he should have said you were not saved if you were "unrepentant" in reading Bob George who teaches false doctrine and an allegedly unsaving gospel. He should have at least questioned it until you showed the proper "fruit".

Do you have any ideas on why MacArthur has this kind of effect on people, that his organization would be cultic? What is it about him that causes this? What is the dynamic? And how do you think it was that you were protected from being caught up in it?

There were times that I even fell for it, but I questioned it most of the time. MacArthur has a very charismatic personality, and very easily charms his followers. He also makes himself seem very intelligent by using Greek/Hebrew and theological terms. He makes people think that Christianity is headed down the wrong path and that he's attempting to get it back to the way it was originally, and he's very good at "hopscotching" through Bible verses to get people to believe this. It is definitely a very carefully crafted scheme that is good at suckering people in.

I also believe that MacArthur has many accomplices in how this cult is ran, such as the Nouthetic counseling in which I know he recruited several different authors to staff the counseling department at the college that teaches the Nouthetic Counseling classes, some have extensive psychology backgrounds, and I'm sure a lot of the counseling ideas were borrowed from L. Ron Hubbard and Scientology. Dianetics and Nouthetic both contain the Greek root word "Nous" and I know Scientology claims that Dianetics comes from the Greek "Dia" and "Nous" which is also the root of "Nouthetic." While Dianetics deals with healing mental illness by ridding the mind of past "abberations," MacArthur's brand of Nouthetic counseling deals with healing mental illness by going through the mind's past experiences and searching for unconfessed sin, and ridding the mind of it by confessing the sins. So, it really is a similar concept in confronting past experiences. Also, both make the person sign a release and forsake any kind of psychology or psychiatry, and both see these as a conspiracy.

I'm not sure how he came up with the ideas for the salvation doctrines, but I can imagine it was carefully crafted to gradually take over a person's freedom and scare them into obedience. They probably looked at many different cults and were careful about making sure they don't spring the doctrine on someone all at once. From what I hear about the Jehovah's Witnesses and Scientologists it seems like there are similarities, like requiring so much work on the part of the church member, not allowing anyone to question doctrine or leaders, shunning unbelievers or those who disobey leaders, punishing disobedience through shunning until repentance, making people constantly question their salvation and/or spirituality. It seems like the Lordship Salvation/Nouthetic Counseling views of MacArthur are like a "best of" of what various cults teach with some Christianity thrown in or misinterpreted to fit the doctrine.

I believe he has a complex and is hungry for the power his followers give him. He always came across to me as very arrogant and feels he is the ultimate authority on everything. What makes him dangerous is all the people that will follow him no matter what.

Hi bjw-

I have no idea how it happened but somehow I missed the email that informs me of a new post on this thread. I had been waiting all this time to hear from you and just came on to send you a PM to see if you were still in the conversation, and here I see there is this post from you from almost 2 weeks ago!!

So I apologize for being so long in responding. I guess I'd better pay better attention to my in box. I any case I am sorry for my delay.


As for the nouthetic counseling, I know it is bad news. I know a person who got trained in it and he changed dramatically and not for the better. He became harsh, dogmatic, almost brutal, was on his kids for every little infraction, and had a total disdain for psychological drugs like anti depressants. I gave him an account of someone I knew who was on a psych drug and he was a different man when he took his meds. He could be in real relationship with his wife and kids and they felt like they had a husband and father. I am not sure why an outcome like that should be disdained. After watching this nouthetically trained man and how he dealt with his kids and the psych drug issue I couldn't like him anymore. He just wasn't a good guy anymore.

I don't know about the Scientology connection. That is a new one on me. All I know about where Nouthetic counseling comes from is that it was developed by Jay Adams, who wrote a book called Competent to Counsel where he asserted that psychology was not Biblical and all that was needed to help people be mentally well was the Bible, rightly applied. He put a heavy emphasis on applying the Mosaic law to the believer and relied very heavily on "rebuking" for success. It is very confrontational. I guess that is why the guy I knew was on his kids for every little thing. Rebuke and confrontation. But that is all I know about Nouthetic counseling. However, regardless of whether there really is a Scientology connection as such, what you have shared about how it is used to control people is of deep concern.

I did want to ask you about your nouthetic counseling experience and how it is used at the college. Were all the students required to have such counseling as a matter of course, or was it just by suggestion if you were having a problem?

And I am sending you a PM.

Hi I am new to this forum. I have a lot of questions but I want to start with nouthetic counseling.
I have looked at a number of sites on it and it is used widely in it seems all types of denominations. It is widely praised.

At first glance you wonder why it would be a bad thing to try to heal yourself from scripture.

But then I read what you said about the father being overly strict.

Do you think that would be considered legalism. Like if you don't do it this way then you are in sin and won't be saved.

Is that what is wrong with it or are there other levels? Why do so many churches seem to be following this route?

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wanda larose
Hi I am new to this forum. I have a lot of questions but I want to start with nouthetic counseling.
I have looked at a number of sites on it and it is used widely in it seems all types of denominations. It is widely praised.

At first glance you wonder why it would be a bad thing to try to heal yourself from scripture.

But then I read what you said about the father being overly strict.

Do you think that would be considered legalism. Like if you don't do it this way then you are in sin and won't be saved.

Is that what is wrong with it or are there other levels? Why do so many churches seem to be following this route?

There's nothing wrong with using your religion to heal you from spiritual problems, that's why we have freedom of religion in this country. What is wrong is convincing people they can be healed from physical illnesses by denying themselves medical treatment. Modern psychiatry has now proven that Depression, BPD, Schizophrenia, etc. and other mental illnesses are caused by an improper balance of chemicals in the brain, not spiritual problems. Medicines like prozac, remeron, etc. are made to correct the balance of these chemicals.

MacArthur and other charlatans falsely claim that psychiatry is involved in some big conspiracy to destroy religion and that it is a false science. They make people deny medical treatment that could potentially cure them of their illnesses. The real reason cultists don't want people to see psychiatrists is that any psychiatrist would spot these fakes immediately as mind-control cults. I think spiritual counseling has a place for spiritual problems (sin, relationship with God, etc.) but no religion has any business making people neglect medical treatment that could cure them in favor of spiritual counseling.

What further is wrong with this counseling is that they use deceptive methods to lure people in, not telling them everything that is really believed up front. If I would have known how they believed when they sent their recruiter to my high school, I would never have went to ther college. Once you are there you are pressured into accepting everything they teach or you are shunned. Even Scientology is more up-front with what they believe, if you go on their website they flat-out tell you up front you'll be doing counseling, they reject psychiatry and medical treatments, etc. People should always have a choice with what to believe before they commit to something.

I am a deeply concerned man, from Ireland, who has seen his younger brother (18) become heavily involved
in right-wing fundamental Christianity. He has began to express an interest in trying to get scholarships to the States
and study theology at Master's in California. The only universities that my family ( being so far away) would have heard of in California
would be Berkeley and UCLA, so I decided to do some research in to 'Master's'/John MacArthur.

Over the last 24 hours I have become more and more concerned. My brother led me to believe that he was only involved in moderate religion, but it seems to me that MacArthur is anything but moderate. His viewpoints upon the world are of a far-right position and some of his teaching is just plain crazy. One of his transcripts online was titled 'Extreme Tolerance'! There are lots of extraordinary speeches and 'teachings' about Harry Potter, C.S Lewis, rock music and even a bizarre attack upon 'Santa Claus Is Coming To Town'! Probably the scariest thing is the rejection of psychology, though. Really, really....off the wall.

All of this smacks of Sarah Palin, involving religion in politics, lunatics thinking Obama is the anti-Christ, that Creation Museum, self-righteous crazies judging everyone...all thinks that we have always had a good chuckle at! Now my brother is involving himself in it!!

We have lots of wonderful universities in Ireland and the U.K ( Trinity, D.C.U, Manchester, UCL etc etc) where my brother, who is a clever lad, could study a degree. Now he has been brain washed by this lot....

Please advise!!!!