whatajoke: Thank you for sharing that list of cultic tendencies.

Iserve one God: Big Worship's statement started out with "at best Tony should not be" that clearly means that is not what has happened, but that is the least the Elder's should me be doing.

Guess Who: The "fly in the ointment of Thomas' instruction is that Christ not men is the one who's authority we come under. Thomas' instruction was talking about coming under the covering of human authority. However the Ecclesia has one head that is Christ. It is that authority covering that Tony C has come out from under and chosen to walk independent of.

The scripture most often used Matt 8:9 & Luke 7:8 where the centurion referred to himself as being under authority...indicating he recognized that Jesus was one who walked under authority and therefore all Jesus needs to do is say the word and... However the authority Jesus came under was that of the Father not that of man. Just as the Father was the authority Jesus walked under by choosing to submit to Him (Even though Jesus God the Son is equal to God the Father) Jesus is the one whose authority covering we must walk under.

Nevertheless even though it is my understanding of New Testament Scripture that Institutionalizing something and calling it Church is unbiblical and therefore the hierarchical leadership structure of RLC and all other Institutional Churches is unbiblical since that is what is in place at RLC then it is not that Tony is not under human authority it is that those in authority are not properly and effectively exercising authority for the the good of the people of RLC. The "Elder's of RLC are putting Tony, before the good of the rest of the flock.

At this point I strongly urge all others who have been the victim of Tony or Elder abuse, neglect, betrayal etc. at RLC to come forward and share your story. And those who came and left, because they recognized that destructive cult like teachings and practices where being taught and practiced at RLC by Tony, Elders's and others please come forward and share your experience and what you recognized. Perhaps as a result others will come to their senses and leave or the Elder's will finally do the thing that they are finding so difficult and remove Tony C from RLC as the Senior Pastor, Apostle or whatever.

Also other's who have already shared in vague none specifics unless you have family, friends, or others you need to protect, or some other understandable reason please be more explicit about exactly what happened to you so that neither Tony or the other's can deny or hide from the truth of actual explicit facts. If not here than tell your story to the Elder's directly as choosing to remain anonymous can unless you are certain what you will say will identify you full to the Elders and others can encourage a false idea that what is shared did not really happen. If you are not comfortable or for some other reason don't want to go in person to the Elders please consider writing a letter and actually signing it.

Hi Everyone!!
I've been reading this for sometime but I wasn't sure that I had anything valid to say.... but I think that was just old protection instinct going on in me.... so screw that!

First, I want to say that it is really sad in regards to the leadership at RLC when people are afraid to get blacklisted or recieve backlash to there expressed opinions at CHURCH.... The one place that you should feel safe, secure and loved no matter what you have done... but it has been said over and over again that people don't want to give out thier names or tell their stories because of fear of what will happen at RLC or by people from RLC.... that just grieves my heart and makes me very angry! Some of the people have become so preoccuipied with "protecting their leader" that they are forgetting just basic human decency....

I have been witness to the mistreatment of people by high up authority in leadership at RLC... I didn't question it for a long time thinking that there was always something wrong with me.... like I was what was broken and if I could only try hard enough and be Godly enough then I would understand... Or that they were coming from a loving place.... even though it didn't seem loving at all.. but I would make excuses for them...

In Soma I just couldn't handle it and that was one of the reasons that I dropped out was because everytime anyone would question something they were humiliated and laughed at... unless it was a question that led the teachers to the direction that they were going.... Or you would just get yelled at for the whole class time about how horrible you were and that you were going to hell unless you did these specific things... and always came back to honor your human authorities and don't waste their time on your petty issues.... Not saying that all SOMA was bad because there were certain teachers that would capture your heart and you knew that they had captured Gods heart as well... But alot of it was very one sided... the RLC side... not general ministry

I was firtshand in some of those leadership meetings where Tony would talk about people "anonymously" and then go to integrate what stupid thing they did into his teaching... I am only now coming to find out who some of those people were and that the stories were totally inaccurate..... and some were blatent lies...

Alot of this has made me incredibly frustrated with myself because I knew that it felt wrong and looked wrong but because of how I had been conditioned and taught I always just let it go on with out speaking up..... I was given a brain for a reason!!! And I'm just mad that I failed to use it alot in my time at RLC....

I was on the worship team.... once again started out great, but the end...gonna need some therapy for that..... It was all a popularity contest... and the most popular people were given the most attention, the most lead parts, etc... even if you didn't buy into it.... then you weren't invited to as many dinners or whatever... or you just weren't on the inside.... the last half of my time there I just felt very detatched from alot of the team because they all catered to certain people to ensure their position and I didn't.... so therefore I wasn't given a position or a very minimal one.... which was fine with me in that aspect because personnally the people that were "popular" were mean and hurtful and didn't give a damn about anyone but themselves....so I wasn't jumping to be there friend...

Then there was big Drama with my brother that was pretty much covered up..... because nobody said anything to me about it... I knew what was going on because of my sister-in-law but from everyone else I was just told that the team was gone... but there was really no acknowledgment of any wrong doing... by anyone... So I was kinda done.. because I had been at the church for 11 years and on the team for 7-8 years.. just seemed like everything was swept prettily under the rug... and all accountability along with it...

So my husband Sean and I left.... he had alot of issues with leadership that I won't go into but if your ever curious ask him..

We weren't as "connected" in the end so we just stopped going... and I have regretted that because I didn't say anything you know... I just left instead of standing up and saying something about it...

I really respect alot of you for that because you have been bold as lions in the face of something that at times can be really scary...especially if you ever bought into the whole power in authority thing in regards to Tony...which I did for a while so I was scared to confront when we left... Scared of being opposed... which was dumb but.... i was
So I figured this is a good place to say something...
And if I get the opportunity I want to be able to say that I stood up in the face of lies and injustice so I figured this was a good starting ground to get me warmed up=)

Thanks for listening to my story and I have really enjoyed everyone's personal stories and how you have come out of all of this....

I feel like I know myself alot better and that I can have my own relationship with God and just be with him and not be so concerned with all the stuff wrong with me.. but just enjoy him...

Michelle Burke

In regards to the comment made by Iserve one God to Worship_Big--I believe the point is that at the very least Tony needs a leash. Somebody needs to pay attention what he says and how he says it. Even if the elders can figure out what to do with Tony they should pay attention to what he is doing.

In regards to Guess Who--That is a question I have asked many times, no one seems to have an answer for.

If a leader teaches that one of the marks of a good leader is to be submisive to those in authority over you, how can you be a good leader if you are not submission to anyone. Thomas also preached in that same setting that everyone needs someone to tell you "no." I have noticed that there are those who don't have someone telling them no. We have to recognize the fruit by its tree. Look at all that has happened and the trail of hurt and brokeness left behind. Obviously either no one was saying no, or someone just wasn't listening.

By the way to RLCers reading this, please note this fact. The main teaching to leadership for many years has been modeling is the highest form of teaching. As a leader we do what we want others to do; it is how we teach. So for it to be said all that is happened is not because of the teaching but in the application something is very wrong. We need to hold accountable the standard of God's word, if you know people aren't doing what the word says but are walking in aborhant practices, the Word plainly states it is our responsiblity to correct them immediately, not 3-5 years later. Continue to ask questions, it is call thinking for yourself. It is extremely important to get your own facts and not just what is fed to you by those in leadership who either don't know what is going on or don't want you to know what is going on.

Truth is our responsiblity, God wants to show us truth, we must respond to the truth God shows us. How we respond determines whether we repent or recycle lies.

Once again, why does anyone have to discredit to be creditable. It makes no sense in the kingdom of God. If anything we are to turn the other cheek in the face of adversity and let God be our defense.

Ah..I fogot. As a former leader I know very well we are taught only to do what we have seen done by our upline, that is where we find our DNA or our way of life. That way of life start in one place alone and has filtered down. Modeling started somewhere. There is but one authority in the body of RLC. We all know who that is. Everyone else walks in borrowed authority. Start thinking for yourselves; there is only one true authority, that is Jesus and He won't condemn you, talk about you, or discard you.

Dear Iserve one God,
My last post was out of frustration toward a bunch of men/women who are supposed to be the "Fathers" of the church, standing watch over and protecting those entrusted under their care, the Elders at RLC; who inspite of testimonies and evidence presented to them have apparently, once again, bought into the cover ups and half truths of a pastor who has a history of verbal and spiritual abuse and neglect toward anyone who either questioned his authority or failed to perform at the expected level. Their inaction or delays in action are giving this man opportunity to circle his wagons, build up his defenses/justifications and attempt to discredit those who have broken free of the cultish influence and are beginning to breathe fresh, non toxic air.

At this point the muddy waters of truth are beginning to clarify and it can be seen that the "majority" of the Elderboard either;
1. have no idea of what is really happening via lies, deception or denial
2. have their heads so far up Tony's arse they cannot move without him moving them
3. are financially/emotionally or in some other way, tied to Tony
4. some combination of the three
Whether they know it yet or not, they are running out of time and are beginning to be identified with the psychophant leader.

Quote
timeforchange
By the way to RLCers reading this, please note this fact. The main teaching to leadership for many years has been modeling is the highest form of teaching.

timeforchange this is possibly the most important point that can be made that you!

In the 12 years I attended RLC on many many occasions I heard this from Tony also. I also heard from him that Jesus is the definition of normal. I also heard him say that Jesus' relationship with the 3, 12, and 70 is our example of how to make disciples. And you know what all that is truth.

However I've never observed Tony or any of the RLC Elders or Pastors model any of that.

My supposed discipleship relationship with Dan Flory consisted of biweekly meetings where in I told him about what God was saying to me to me, being asked how my prayer life and bible reading was Going, me asking Dan's advice on various life topics, praying together, and Dan sharing with me from scripture what God has been speaking to him. I've spent years reading, meditating upon, and studying the Gospels in depths and that is the smallest part of th the example I see in Jesus' relationship with his disciples.

With regard to Tony's Modeling if I were to follow his example:

I would act like the CEO of a major corporation.

I would have a team of people surrounding me that serve me hand and foot.

When in public gatherings I would stop and make a limited number of obligatory short conversations with as few people as possible that our outside the specially chosen few to make it appear as if I'm approachable.

I would stand in front of People and tell them how to live for Jesus without modeling it first. Modeling requires people actual see you doing it.

Outside of public settings I would make it a habit of practicing the opposite of everything I have invested great amounts of time and effort teaching others with great explicitness what to and not to do as a follower of Christ.

To all who are reading:

Can anyone with complete validity answer this question?

Q. Does anyone know why the message from last Sunday has not been posted on the RLC website yet? I know there were a lot of "blame shift" apologies and other things spoken on Sunday morning, but I am not sure why the whole message has not been posted. If you have the truth of it, please respond. Otherwise...Please keep your assumptions to yourself. I want to know the truth.

-Ryan-

How Can I Discern Whether I'm in a Healthy or Abusive Fellowship?
Abusive fellowships are often the most exciting Christian gatherings around -- filled with dedicated, committed, enthusiastic leaders and members. Do not let enthusiasm and sincerity be the basis for approval. More often than not, abusive fellowships cannot be recognized by mere outward appearance. By discrediting facts, the leaders of such gatherings control information. Leaders may deny these practices -- or marginalize them in some way. It is important to investigate any fellowship thoroughly.

Abusive fellowships often change the meaning of words. In these fellowships, "unity" commonly means agreement with the leaders opinions. Members are often told that they are "out of unity" when they disagree with the leaders' opinions. Healthy fellowships understand that true unity means that

There is one body and one Spirit -- just as you were called to one hope when you were called -- one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. (Ephesians 4)

Every healthy fellowship will have disagreements, and yet be in unity in the Biblical sense as brothers and sisters in Christ.

In healthy fellowships members commonly maintain friendships when friends leave the group. Abusive fellowships tend to view almost everyone who leaves as a backslider and they view most other Christians as not committed or saved. Healthy fellowships do not consistently tell derogatory stories about those who leave.

In healthy fellowships the leaders prove themselves to be trustworthy in order to be trusted. In abusive fellowships the leaders must be trusted because they are the leaders. To not trust them is to sin.

In healthy fellowships we are admonished to imitate the Christ-like virtues seen in others. In abusive fellowships the leaders are imitated in many more ways than just their virtues. In fact, members take on many of the personal characteristics (personality) of the leaders in a manner that appears unseemly. This is particularly true of those being groomed for "ministry."

In healthy fellowships commitment to the Lord Jesus Christ, and to Apostolic teaching, is absolutely necessary. In abusive fellowships members must be equally committed to the group and to its practices and peculiar beliefs. Some even have members sign "covenant" documents, much like marriage vows.

In healthy fellowships we are exhorted to obey clear Biblical mandates. In abusive fellowships we are exhorted (or pressured) to obey the leaders' opinions --even when our conscience says "no."

In healthy fellowships the confession of sins and "bearing of one another's burdens" is a personal matter that takes place in the context of a larger "family" relationship with other Christians. In abusive fellowships sins are exposed by (or to) leaders and pressure is often applied to confess to the group.

In healthy fellowships secrecy and independence in personal matters -- before God -- are acceptable as long as sins are confessed in private. In abusive fellowships secrecy or independence in personal affairs are scorned, and all areas of life are to be exposed -- even those that do not touch moral issues.

In healthy fellowships we are encouraged to love and bless our enemies. In abusive fellowships showing hatred for our enemies and speaking defamatory of them is acceptable. And often the occasion for "rallying the troops."

Abusive leaders seldom practice this scripture:

"...when ridiculed, we bless; when persecuted, we endure; when slandered we respond gently..." (1 Cor 4:12, 13)


Non-abusive leaders rebuke members only for grave public sins, as a last resort (Matthew 18:17). Abusive leaders often publicly rebuke or ostracize members who simply disagree with leaders' opinions. Usually vis-à-vis sermon illustrations or applications, etc.

Non-abusive leaders do not encourage people to leave the fellowships because of differences of opinion. Abusive leaders often assume the right -- unilaterally -- to tell or encourage members who do not agree with leaders' opinions to leave the fellowship.

Non-abusive leaders do not view members as "lacking spiritually" simply because they do not participate in numerous fellowship activities. Abusive leaders view as "spiritually lacking" those who fail to attend most all their fellowship activities. Some even mandate the number of meetings members MUST attend.

Non-abusive leaders do not discourage members from reading information critical about the group. Abusive leaders often control negative information about the group by either discrediting it or by dissuading members not to read it.

Non-abusive leaders do not judge your hearts, but they leave that to God. Abusive leaders constantly judge hearts, motives, and intents. They basically assume -- rather, usurp -- the place of God.

A good man in a bad system will not misuse his authority. A good system can deal with a bad man and get rid of him. A bad man in a bad system is an untouchable pope simply because he is protected by the system. He may be the worst of tyrants, but nothing can be done by anyone. A sincere sheep has only one option in such a case.


The option is to leave.

Here is a link on a blog that discusses How to Ruin a Church. The pattern discussed may be recognized by those who have attended RLC for a long period of time.

[emerginggrace.blogspot.com]