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Re: Turning Point Church World Outreach Center-Tell Your Story
Posted by: Brokenhearted ()
Date: March 07, 2009 03:59AM

I've given this much thought and prayer since Learning point last posted. There does seem to be much confusion surrounding the apostle thing. I think perhaps, I may have identified where some of the confusion stems. Please feel free to add to my thoughts, and discuss them, debate them, etc. It is my hope that there will be discussion around this issues that may bring the truth to light.

There is much conflicting information surrounding an apostolic ministry, from reputable sources. Some don't believe that modern day apostles (MDA) exist at all. Others outline the roles of an apostle. I think, for many at TP, who've seen Pastor Mike walk in the role of an apostle, it's difficult to comprehend the idea that mda's don't exist. And scripture confirms that Jesus appointed apostles.

I'll be completely honest here and say that I'm not convinced one way or the other. But, what I am sure of is that there are people who have an apostolic gifting, and I believe that at the very least, Mike does posses this gift. I do believe that there is an apostolic role in the church. (I'm sure that my beliefs here are debatable, so debate away!)

I think that the issues facing TP are a direct result of Pastor Mike losing focus, having been blinded by his own sin (falling into the temptaion of pride, among others). Whether an apostle, or just a man with a gift, Pastor Mike is not currently functioning as an apostle. I'm confident that all of the other details and problems that TP is facing right now, and has been facing for the last few years, are rooted in this loss of direction.

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Re: Turning Point Church World Outreach Center-Tell Your Story
Date: March 07, 2009 04:56AM

Quote
Brokenhearted
I've given this much thought and prayer since Learning point last posted. There does seem to be much confusion surrounding the apostle thing. I think perhaps, I may have identified where some of the confusion stems. Please feel free to add to my thoughts, and discuss them, debate them, etc. It is my hope that there will be discussion around this issues that may bring the truth to light.

There is much conflicting information surrounding an apostolic ministry, from reputable sources. Some don't believe that modern day apostles (MDA) exist at all. Others outline the roles of an apostle. I think, for many at TP, who've seen Pastor Mike walk in the role of an apostle, it's difficult to comprehend the idea that mda's don't exist. And scripture confirms that Jesus appointed apostles.

I'll be completely honest here and say that I'm not convinced one way or the other. But, what I am sure of is that there are people who have an apostolic gifting, and I believe that at the very least, Mike does posses this gift. I do believe that there is an apostolic role in the church. (I'm sure that my beliefs here are debatable, so debate away!)

I think that the issues facing TP are a direct result of Pastor Mike losing focus, having been blinded by his own sin (falling into the temptaion of pride, among others). Whether an apostle, or just a man with a gift, Pastor Mike is not currently functioning as an apostle. I'm confident that all of the other details and problems that TP is facing right now, and has been facing for the last few years, are rooted in this loss of direction.

Hi BrokenHearted,

Please help those who might engage in this discussion/debate by defining a few items:

How is a "modern day apostle" different from a "historical apostle"?
Jesus appointed apostles. Please describe what mission or purpose Jesus gave to "historical apostles".
Please define what skill sets make up the "apostolic gifting" ?


Thanks

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Re: Turning Point Church World Outreach Center-Tell Your Story
Posted by: LearningPoint ()
Date: March 07, 2009 10:09AM

Quote
Brokenhearted
I've given this much thought and prayer since Learning point last posted. There does seem to be much confusion surrounding the apostle thing. I think perhaps, I may have identified where some of the confusion stems. Please feel free to add to my thoughts, and discuss them, debate them, etc. It is my hope that there will be discussion around this issues that may bring the truth to light.

There is much conflicting information surrounding an apostolic ministry, from reputable sources. Some don't believe that modern day apostles (MDA) exist at all. Others outline the roles of an apostle. I think, for many at TP, who've seen Pastor Mike walk in the role of an apostle, it's difficult to comprehend the idea that mda's don't exist. And scripture confirms that Jesus appointed apostles.

I'll be completely honest here and say that I'm not convinced one way or the other. But, what I am sure of is that there are people who have an apostolic gifting, and I believe that at the very least, Mike does posses this gift. I do believe that there is an apostolic role in the church. (I'm sure that my beliefs here are debatable, so debate away!)

I think that the issues facing TP are a direct result of Pastor Mike losing focus, having been blinded by his own sin (falling into the temptaion of pride, among others). Whether an apostle, or just a man with a gift, Pastor Mike is not currently functioning as an apostle. I'm confident that all of the other details and problems that TP is facing right now, and has been facing for the last few years, are rooted in this loss of direction.


Hi, Brokenhearted!

I so agree with you about the lost focus on Jesus and His gospel. It used to be all about Jesus himself and people coming to know Him. It's so sad what has happened.

Now, as to apostles, also agree with you, I think. See if you agree with this further clarification or not, which, of course, if you don't that's OK. It's not one of those things explicitly explained in scritpure, but there is enough evidence to support the conclusion most of the (protestant) church of Jesus Christ has reached, and which I, too, have reached through trusted sources, including first the scriptures, then various online sources (it helps to know the credible ones), and also Bible college professors who knew the scriptures inside and out and who had a very balanced view of things (that is, they were not from traditions that predisposed their theology to any one point of view, such as Calvinism or Charismatic doctrines.)

And just for the record, most who believe in the modern-day OFFICE of apostle are abberant charismatic churches, who have embraced the five-fold ministry and the New Apostolic Reformation, as well. Neither the scriptures, nor church history, nor the church fathers show us a pattern of successive leaders (after the original Apostles) assuming this office. Scripture itself reveals the true apostles and the church rejecting those who CLAIMED to be apostles and were not. These imposters merely wanted the authority of an apostle, but they had not been appointed by the Lord. Oh! there's that word. Mike has a preoccupation with AUTHORITY. There's a clue: false apostles seek to have authority that does not belong to them, authority that belongs only to Christ and those to whom He grants it.

I do believe there are apostles (lowecase "a" might be a good way to identify these in writing) in the sense that the word means "sent ones"--ones who are called by God, sent by the church to spread the gospel through missionary work, planting churches near and far. This is the FUNCTIONAL role of apostle you were describing, and Mike very well may be one of these.

However, the OFFICE of an Apostle (capital "A") has to do with those Apostles specifically appointed by Jesus. Only these men were equipped by the nature of their experience of being with Jesus and by being appointed by Him, to lay that church's foundation, declaring Christ to be the cornerstone of that foundation. (Once a foundation is laid, though, it doesn't need to be laid again.) So the OFFICE is obsolete, but as you observed, there are still men and women who do the type of work these first Apostles did, though without that official, foundational aspect.

This OFFICE of Apostle is what Mike and Tony are talking about when they call themselves apostles. Because they seek to take to themselves this office, which only Jesus could confer, these are the false apostles we are warned about in Scripture--ones who self-appoint (or gratify each other's egos by appointing one another). They want the same authority that Peter, James, Paul, John, etc., had. They are deluded into believing that they are an ultimate authority in the church, that their words are tantamount to God's words. THIS IS VERY DANGEROUS, AND WE HAVE BEEN WARNED IN SCRIPTURE ABOUT THESE SORTS OF MEN AND WOMEN.

It seems surreal to me that I am witnessing a man being lured into this kind of thinking, into lust for authority and power to such a degree that he would begin to believe he has the same authority as a foundational Apostle. I wonder if he can feel the difference between how he used to be and how he is now. I wonder if he ever feels like there's something lost or missing. I wonder...

Anyway, I don't know if that made anything more or less clear, or if it persuaded you at all, but I know that the main point you talked about--about the loss of focus--is really how it all got off track. In my exit interview with an elder, that's exactly what I said as one of my concerns...that the focus had gotten off of Christ. Amen, Brokenhearted! May Turning Point find that focus again one day, and may it not be long from now.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/07/2009 10:24AM by LearningPoint.

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Re: Turning Point Church World Outreach Center-Tell Your Story
Posted by: BraveHeart ()
Date: March 07, 2009 10:31AM

Brokenhearted
you said
Quote

I think, for many at TP, who've seen Pastor Mike walk in the role of an apostle, it's difficult to comprehend the idea that mda's don't exist.
In all sincerity....
Can you account for, or give us, what evidence there is, that would support the apostolic claim for Mike?

Is there and evidence that would support the apostolic claim for Tony?

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Re: Turning Point Church World Outreach Center-Tell Your Story
Posted by: BraveHeart ()
Date: March 07, 2009 02:09PM

I am serious when I ask the question...
"Can you account for, or give us, what evidence there is, that would support the apostolic claim for Mike?"
Is there any evidence that would support the apostolic claim for Tony Cunningham?


If people can not come onto this blog and give any testimony that could support ether of these two guys and there claims of being an apostle...then you have just smoke and mirrors.

BraveHeart

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Re: Turning Point Church World Outreach Center-Tell Your Story
Posted by: Mville04 ()
Date: March 07, 2009 03:20PM

As was mention before in this forum, Mike And Cindy had met with Bill Johnson while on sebatical and has invited him to speak at TPC. Bill Johnson is an Apostle anointed under Peter Wagner who began the new Internation Coalition of Apostles movement. Peter Wagner preaches that there exsists a recognized authority for God here on earth. He discribes the authority structure begining with Christ then on to the Apostle, Senior members, etc. The qualifications of being an Apostle includes the size and wealth of the church. That is one of the main qualifiers. Mike has obviously conected with these people and I think he sees himself in this, so called, misistry.

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Re: Turning Point Church World Outreach Center-Tell Your Story
Posted by: Brokenhearted ()
Date: March 07, 2009 11:51PM

In the early years of TP, Pastor Mike's *calling* was to pursue the lost and plant churches. He was a humble man that served others. He had vision and execution. Jesus Christ was central to it all, and not a mere ornament.

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Re: Turning Point Church World Outreach Center-Tell Your Story
Posted by: Brokenhearted ()
Date: March 08, 2009 12:02AM

Turningpoint reject ~ I am sorry that it has taken so long to get back to you. I've had to give this careful consideration, as like I said in my original post, I'm not quite sure yet what exactly I believe when it come to mda's vs historic apostles.

I want to thank Learningpoint for expanding on these things. My spouse and I have discussed this much over the last several weeks, and while it has been difficult for each of us to articulate exactly what we think, this does help to clarify, some of the issues.

Braveheart, I cannot currently give you any evidence of Mike's claim, as I do not believe that he is walking in his gifting. He is leading himself, not being lead by the spirit.

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Re: Turning Point Church World Outreach Center-Tell Your Story
Posted by: Brokenhearted ()
Date: March 08, 2009 12:10AM

Quote
Mville04
As was mention before in this forum, Mike And Cindy had met with Bill Johnson while on sebatical and has invited him to speak at TPC. Bill Johnson is an Apostle anointed under Peter Wagner who began the new Internation Coalition of Apostles movement. Peter Wagner preaches that there exsists a recognized authority for God here on earth. He discribes the authority structure begining with Christ then on to the Apostle, Senior members, etc. The qualifications of being an Apostle includes the size and wealth of the church. That is one of the main qualifiers. Mike has obviously conected with these people and I think he sees himself in this, so called, misistry.

I've been reading up on this movement. I think it's disturbing, at best. I did not realize that Bill Johnson was invited to speak at TP. The idea that size and wealth would be qualifiers for anything when it comes to ministry is appauling. I hope that those who still consider TP to be their home will look into this movement, and judge it with a humble spirit. Is there ANY scriptural support for this? It's frightening to think that Pastor Mike has SO missed the mark on this.

TP, my dear friends and family, you continue to be in my prayers.

~BH

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Re: Turning Point Church World Outreach Center-Tell Your Story
Posted by: Mville04 ()
Date: March 08, 2009 12:52AM

For anyone who is interested. Here is a link about C. Peter Wagner, his history, a list of his book and so on. When you start looking into his works you will begin to see a very familiar calling.

[en.wikipedia.org]

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