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Re: Turning Point Church World Outreach Center-Tell Your Story
Date: March 04, 2009 12:55PM

On a different note: This thread started October 18, 2008. It took about four months for this thread to reach 10,000 views. Something has changed in the last month. Just in one month this thread has experienced an additional 10,000 views. More and more people are taking time to read this thread. More and more people are asking questions and beginning to wonder about the teachings of TPCWOC.

When I began this thread, I really wasn't sure if there were any others who were concerned about the influence of Tony C on Mike V. I am not really sure, still, what to make of the sudden increase of interest in this thread but it is real. Maybe its just a bunch of lookie loos who have not connection to TPCWOC at all or maybe more and more people at TPC are beginning to wonder about what they are witnessing and experiencing and are wanting to know what others have experienced. But something has definitely caused a greater interest in this thread the last month.

For those new viewers who have started reading this thread in the last 30 days, I want to welcome you. I invite you to join the dialog when you find the time is right.

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Re: Turning Point Church World Outreach Center-Tell Your Story
Posted by: doesntmatter ()
Date: March 04, 2009 02:13PM

Thank you Braveheart, I agree with what you have had to say about the posts.

and TPR: I have acknowledged that more and more people from TP are finding the website, some don't believe it, and some actually research more into it! and find out that it is actually true what is going on, because really why would anyone; or everyone on here lie about the church? I'm excited and happy that the truth has come out and I praise God that everyone on here continues to write and share their experiences. :)








Quote
TurningPointReject
On a different note: This thread started October 18, 2008. It took about four months for this thread to reach 10,000 views. Something has changed in the last month. Just in one month this thread has experienced an additional 10,000 views. More and more people are taking time to read this thread. More and more people are asking questions and beginning to wonder about the teachings of TPCWOC.

When I began this thread, I really wasn't sure if there were any others who were concerned about the influence of Tony C on Mike V. I am not really sure, still, what to make of the sudden increase of interest in this thread but it is real. Maybe its just a bunch of lookie loos who have not connection to TPCWOC at all or maybe more and more people at TPC are beginning to wonder about what they are witnessing and experiencing and are wanting to know what others have experienced. But something has definitely caused a greater interest in this thread the last month.

For those new viewers who have started reading this thread in the last 30 days, I want to welcome you. I invite you to join the dialog when you find the time is right.

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Re: Turning Point Church World Outreach Center-Tell Your Story
Posted by: Timetospeak ()
Date: March 04, 2009 02:24PM

God did not give you a spirit of timidy, but a spirit of power love and sound mind. Read your bylaws and confront the church leadership as a group and in public. Don't be afraid. You are dealing with men nothing more and nothing less, sinners in need of a savior. If spiritual abuse is present then they have no spiritual right or authority in your life. If you think a little abuse is OK then you will find yourself in VERY deep trouble and you are putting your family, your wife, your son, your daughter, your motther, father or whatever your case, in DEEP spiritual danger. If there is nothing found to be wrong then stay, but if you find defensiveness, pride, arrogance, manipulation and you see bad fruit then LEAVE.

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Re: Turning Point Church World Outreach Center-Tell Your Story
Posted by: BraveHeart ()
Date: March 04, 2009 02:47PM

TPR You make a good point We have seen about 300+ views since early this morning!

YES people are asking questions and the tactic that leadership will take is this:

If you ask someone on staff or ask Mike directly at church with many witness with a specific question or concern...
for example, lets ask the question "is it possible for me to look at the church budget?" you will be immediately be interrogated regarding your motives.
Maybe you could ask a more specific question like
"Mike can you give me a statement of your faith?
Mike Do you embrace the teaching of Spiritual Parenting? are you not a spiritual son to Tony Cunningham? are you not practicing and embracing that ritual?
can you explain why you believe that your an apostle?
He will immediately start interrogating you as to who put you up to the question, who have you been talking to, are you reading the website etc. etc. and his sycophant elders will come to you and escort you out of the church building.

we know he is starting to read it more and more.

Then stand back and listen to him denigrate demonize anyone posting on this website.

With 492 posts and over 20,302 views

YES people are reading this Forum and they are also reading the

"Has Anyone Ever Heard of Radiant Life Church in Sacramento?" Forum

"SOMA NORTHWEST Are they still connected to Tony Cunningham?" Forum


BraveHeart

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Re: Turning Point Church World Outreach Center-Tell Your Story
Posted by: Brokenhearted ()
Date: March 04, 2009 11:02PM

The word says to test and weigh all the spirits. So take my advice for what it is. Test it and weigh it.

If you attend TP and are considering leaving, then I recomend that you do NOT go to the very people that you mistrust for guidance and councel. Go, instead, to the word of God, go to the Lord himself in prayer and worship. Ask God to answer your questions, then go to the word to find the answers.

There are many, many questions listed in this forum that you should ask. I believe that they are all answered in the word. I do NOT believe that a non-answer is a yes, or a grey area.

For example, Jesus did apoint Apostles. He did. Not one person can or will dispute that. But, what authority did He give them? What qualificiation were there for an Apostle? What outline is there in the word for an apostolic ministry? What are the signs, of a false apostle? How is one to determine the difference between a *real* apostle and a false one? What is to be gained by following an apostle? What is to be lost by following a false apostle?

Or, you could look into the curch of Acts. How does TP compare?

Or, spiritual authority?

Or grace verses acts of service?

What do the bylaws of your church say today? What did they say six months ago? Did you know that they changed? Did your leaders offer this info to you? If not, what are tehy hiding, and what else are they hiding?

What is the vision and mission of TP? Do these things ring true? (Does TP pursue the lost sheep, or is there a common practice of "let them go"?)

This is certainly not an exhaustive list. I'm certain that the Holy Spirit has given you your own set of questions. Don't squelch the Spirit. Trust what He has put in you. Ask the questions, expect the answers.

You are in my prayers.

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Re: Turning Point Church World Outreach Center-Tell Your Story
Posted by: Mville04 ()
Date: March 04, 2009 11:30PM

Hello to all of you here and especially those who are neighbors in Marysville.
I am the one who posted the “Cult” videos about TPC. I have also thought about removing them on several occasions since they were in my mind rather abusive in their own right. However, each time I was about to, I would then be given another piece of information that validated the videos or validated what I considered their necessity. I felt that a counter point to TPC spiritual mapping and spiritual assaults was needed as a flint to start a fire. The fire is burning now. I take no satisfaction in this because people are still afraid, angry, hurt by the church and in some respect by my videos. It is still obvious that Mike does not have regard for the Christian community here. His plan is the one that matters most to him. He is what matters most. It’s as if he is grabbing at any balloon to give him rise without knowing where it is going to.
Now, after the new SOMA video was released and posted on You Tube it is apparent that the marching orders for the flock have strengthened. That, with other new information tempts me to create a new video. I am not sure that this is the right course.
I am wondering if the dividing rod between us is so much the church or I.
Some input would be welcome.

A piece of information; I know that the Everett Herald will be interviewing several people about TPC today. A fire is burning.


Mville04

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Re: Turning Point Church World Outreach Center-Tell Your Story
Posted by: M&M ()
Date: March 04, 2009 11:36PM

There is a very interesting article my wife's uncle sent me. In the RLC forum Deja Vu cited a description of narcissism 7-08-08.

This one hones in on what happens when that person is a minister.

This is an extensive article and like many of these things does not entirely apply to Mike and Cyndi. I have copied here some things that stand out. If true this is much harder to address then I would have thought. Of course I am not a professional therapist. I make no claim to diagnosing Mike or Cyndi. Those of you on staff at TP or are a subordinate minister may relate to much of this.

To those on staff or are pastors please read the section of the article that deals with how to relate to this person. The author says many of you may be feeling enormous stress and suggests ways to deal with it. Also, I concluded with a statement in the article that applies to you who are elders and pastors. I hope you will prayerfully consider what it says.

Just google Narcissist's in the Pulpit to get the full article. I have put Roman numberals by quotes from the article and then followed by specific examples. Many of you have already read these examples but I know many of you haven't. Feel free to add your own examples or, as always, if you believe I am mistaken or erroneous please correct me.

I. "When you enter the web of the Narcissist, you leave yourself behind."  (Hotchkiss, p.62

II. 5. Feels entitled. Expects unreasonable or special & favorable priority treatment. Demands automatic and full compliance with his or her expectations.

One of the odd experiences I had with Mike was that one time we came to his house for discipleship. We didn't see him in the living room where we usually met and so one of the guys figured he was asleep. A bunch of us gathered outside as we had done before when suddenly he appreared. He was irritated at us because he was in the other room worshipping God and thought we should have come in. He didn't apologize or say that he should have told us where he was. He expected us to know.

III. Exaggerated descriptions of Self: The simplest way to identify the narcissist it to note how they show their exaggerated sense of self by talking about family, work, and life in general as if there is not one else in the picture.

This I believe explains the videos on youtube. The idea that Mike feels comfortable having himself videoed going to his son's school as the ultimate parent. Totally unaware of how self serving and exalting he is being.


IV. The power of the NPD person to bring you into unconscious agreement with her belief that she is truly extraordinary is possibly the most remarkable feature of the narcissist. Before you know what is happening you may be following her lead, enjoying her charisma, or perhaps intimidated by her persuasiveness, power, and authority....the narcissist's belief that you too are special because he has selected you to associate with him is also a compelling force at work. (Payson Page 38).

This was one of the most powerful quotes in the article to me. In one of the first video's on SOMA they use words like this school will go “beyond your wildest dreams” or that “This is the closest thing we have to the book Acts right now” or Cyndi saying that the students taking her speech class will improve their skills 90% by the time they were donewith her class. I have also experienced the power of going into Mike's office with a very clear perception of what an issue was and within minutes totally doubting anything I thought.



V. Contradictory Statements: Another telling thing that narcissists do is contradict themselves. They will tell you one thing, and later tell you that they told you something
and deny that they said the first thing. The narcissist pastor will say something to one group of people in the church and then say something completely different to another group or individual. When confronted about this contradiction they will question your sanity with, “I never said any such thing. How could you think that?” The scariest part of this is that the narcissist will believe his lies.

To you who are elders or assistantants to Mike and Cyndi have you ever experienced this? Have you ever been under the impression they were promising you something and then they deny it? Or give you instructions and then reverse themselves and blame you???


VI. Dattner also points out that the NPD leader will tend to select and defer to loyal and uncritical staff. Loyalty will be valued far more that truth speaking. The narcissistic pastor will attempt to stack the board, the elders or committees that he has to deal with, with people who he perceives as loyal.


I believe this is consistent with the reality at TP. How many of the elders are on staff or spouses are on staff? How many have their salaries and sense of worth determined by Mike and Cyndi?

VII. “The victim of a narcissist is traumatized. There are biochemical changes in the body and structural changes in the brain. Thought patterns change, memories are lost, immune system strongly affected, brain cells die, there is chest pain, muscle pain, feelings are intense and emotions chaotic. Victimization is never deserved. (Bradley)
The stress created can not be underemphasized.

To you staff members, do you related to this statement? I have reason to believe this has been your reality for awhile now. If it is you are not alone. You don't have to be alone. There is more in the article to help you.


VIII. Some narcissists seek to imitate or even emulate their (ever changing) role models. It is as if by imitating the object of his envy, the narcissist becomes that object. So, narcissists are likely to adopt their boss' typical gestures, the vocabulary of a successful politician, the dress code of a movie star, the views of an esteemed tycoon, even the countenance and actions of the (fictitious) hero of a movie or a novel.”

I have seen this with Mike in many ways. It was only years later that I discovered that many of the things Mike did were because Tony did them. I remember Tony came up once and was dressed in a really weird type shirt. The next time I saw Mike he was wearing the same type of shirt. I believe now that is what is happening with the prosperity churches that is their new mark of identification.

IX. Realize that the narcissist has shifting values and what is good to him at one moment is not the next—everything hinges upon what they feel is best for them at the time. It is extremely hard to get a narcissistic pastor to create long term rules (policies and procedures/flow charts of authority etc) as they would much rather autocratically make decisions arbitrarily and not have any restrictions placed upon themselves. They will just wish to pleasure those who are loyal and make them look good, and punish all who they feel who do not. It therefore becomes important for the church leadership to make sure that policies and procedures get put in place and followed. Again it will be important to make sure strong leaders are involved in setting these policies and then get these in writing and distributed accordingly.

Pastor Mike preached the sermon on healing that began their becoming of Word of Faith church without consulting or informing anyone. Nor did he feel he needed to even explain as he preached the new doctrine why he was changing his views. This seemed bizarre to me until I read this. The person teaching SOMA was not even ordered to change the curriculum. They had to ask him later as he hadn't thought that far ahead.

X. 1.  Poor Interpersonal Boundaries - Equilibrium for Narcissists is a state of fusion with others who have something they need.  Whether the Narcissist deliberately sets out to undermine your autonomy or just ignores your separate existence, that predisposition to fusion means that you will not only be expected to do what the Narcissist wants but also to know what that is, to want it yourself, and - this is important - to be able to produce it.....If the Narcissist wants you for something, you become an extension of her Self, like an extra arm on her body.  She may flatter you, offer you rewards, or otherwise try to seduce you to get you into her web.  If she already has power over you, she may shame or manipulate you to keep you under her thumb.  Her goal is to annihilate the boundaries between you, to own you, as it were.  Separateness will be viewed as a threat, and you will experience repeated violations of your personal boundaries....Personal boundaries are seen as an obstacle to complete control and are routinely violated.  

Twice I made appointments with staff members and was speaking with them and they were interupted. The staff member had to get out and tend to Mike. There was no thought that the person who was serving on staff or the person coming to the office was important in the eyes of God also. The feeling was “The MIKE wants me The MIKE gets me.”


XI. Entitlement. Spend a few days with a narcissist out and about and you will quickly identify this trait:
“The narcissist immediately asks for "special treatment" of some kind. Not to wait his turn, to have a longer or a shorter therapeutic session, to talk directly to authority figures (and not to their assistants or secretaries), to be granted special payment terms, to enjoy custom tailored arrangements - or to get served first. The narcissist is the one who – vocally and demonstratively – demands the undivided attention of the head waiter in a restaurant, or monopolizes the hostess, or latches on to celebrities in a party. The narcissist reacts with rage and indignantly when denied his wishes and if treated equally with others whom he deems inferior.” (Vaknin)

I believe this is at the core of the Villamoors being able to buy a house in an exclusive neigherhood almost immediately after a massive fund drive. Mike called upon people to sacrifice and give and not indulge in things like crown molding. Yet had no compunction about buying a house far in excess of anything the vast majority of his congregants were sacrificing.







XII. A Key Conclusion
Realize that a narcissistic pastor is a very real danger both to himself and to the church life. According to Dattner Consulting LLC if the NPD pastor is able to accumulate too much power and prestige, and if others in the church are not able to moderate the narcissist’s destructive impulses, success can soon lead to failure.



Unfortunately, the leadership of the church will most likely make an attempt to help the pastor, or curb excess by rules and boundaries, but these simply delays the inevitable. Sooner or later the leadership of the church must react and respond pragmatically or accept things the way they are and give the narcissist free reign. A decision has to be made weighing out the positive and negatives of keeping the narcissistic pastor in the pulpit. Personally, I believe it is a no-brainer, but in reality this may become a very difficult decision. It will be very hard for some to accept the evidence of what they see before them. Some others may be caught up in the benefits of aligning themselves with the narcissist and his plans etc. In all the confusion, the greatest tool of the devil—that of causing disunity will rear its ugly head. Leadership must work at establishing unity and trust, particularly within itself, and then make the tough decision. It will be important to properly document the deficiencies as it related to absent skill sets that the pastor is lacking, as well as to list the abuses of power etc. that are being manifest. It would be prudent to as quickly as possible have a formal evaluation of the pastor done, and the notes entered into the personnel file in case their is the need for dismissal, and the pastor counters with a law suit. Make sure you have crossed all the t's and dotted your i's. When possible consult with your district leadership about proper process for dismissal. The best scenario is to convince the narcissist how it is in his best interests to resign and find other employment

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Re: Turning Point Church World Outreach Center-Tell Your Story
Posted by: wherefromhere ()
Date: March 04, 2009 11:39PM

i am so saddened by all that has happened. saw a memo in the office the other day that said "we need to be very careful what we say to people on the phone or at the desk. Here is a list of topics we are NOT to talk about. pastor jackie, tony cunningham, apostolic ministry, newspaper interviews, youth on school campuses. take a msg and give to kari lewis or jeff barnes." then it says "please understand we are NOT trying to keep secrets. There are other staff persons far more equipped to handle these types of topics and issues, and they are aware of the WHOLE story, we are NOT. " What is the whole story? Why the gag orders to staff of Turning Point? Is there more to pastor jackie leaving? whats up with tony c? if the apostolic ministry is all good why doesnt the staff understand it? and how scary that no one can talk to the newspaper. again i say what is the WHOLE story that only kari lewis or jeff barnes know.

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Re: Turning Point Church World Outreach Center-Tell Your Story
Posted by: Brokenhearted ()
Date: March 05, 2009 12:13AM

Interesting article M&M. Here are some of my experiences with these issues.

I. "When you enter the web of the Narcissist, you leave yourself behind." (Hotchkiss, p.62

II. 5. Feels entitled. Expects unreasonable or special & favorable priority treatment. Demands automatic and full compliance with his or her expectations.

One of the odd experiences I had with Mike was that one time we came to his house for discipleship. We didn't see him in the living room where we usually met and so one of the guys figured he was asleep. A bunch of us gathered outside as we had done before when suddenly he appreared. He was irritated at us because he was in the other room worshipping God and thought we should have come in. He didn't apologize or say that he should have told us where he was. He expected us to know.


Special treatment? Pastor Mike will not meet with teh general public, only city or school officials, elders or pastors.

III. Exaggerated descriptions of Self: The simplest way to identify the narcissist it to note how they show their exaggerated sense of self by talking about family, work, and life in general as if there is not one else in the picture.

This I believe explains the videos on youtube. The idea that Mike feels comfortable having himself videoed going to his son's school as the ultimate parent. Totally unaware of how self serving and exalting he is being.


I would add that it is also seen in the way that Mike promotes his wife and kids...in every venue.

IV. The power of the NPD person to bring you into unconscious agreement with her belief that she is truly extraordinary is possibly the most remarkable feature of the narcissist. Before you know what is happening you may be following her lead, enjoying her charisma, or perhaps intimidated by her persuasiveness, power, and authority....the narcissist's belief that you too are special because he has selected you to associate with him is also a compelling force at work. (Payson Page 38).

This was one of the most powerful quotes in the article to me. In one of the first video's on SOMA they use words like this school will go “beyond your wildest dreams” or that “This is the closest thing we have to the book Acts right now” or Cyndi saying that the students taking her speech class will improve their skills 90% by the time they were donewith her class. I have also experienced the power of going into Mike's office with a very clear perception of what an issue was and within minutes totally doubting anything I thought.


Has anyone ever disagreed with Mike, only to discover that after having a conversation with him, they find themselves actually agreeing?

VII. “The victim of a narcissist is traumatized. There are biochemical changes in the body and structural changes in the brain. Thought patterns change, memories are lost, immune system strongly affected, brain cells die, there is chest pain, muscle pain, feelings are intense and emotions chaotic. Victimization is never deserved. (Bradley)
The stress created can not be underemphasized.

To you staff members, do you related to this statement? I have reason to believe this has been your reality for awhile now. If it is you are not alone. You don't have to be alone. There is more in the article to help you.


I can't be too specific about this, but I have witnessed this with my own eyes. I have seen staff members brought to tears, b/c of Mike's treatment of other staff, in order to bring everyone into compliance. I have heard (hear say only, I have not witnessed) that there is a huge amount of *pressure* for elders to come into unity, and an elder that is not in unity prayed for until they come into unity with the vision that Pastor Mike has set forth.

VIII. Some narcissists seek to imitate or even emulate their (ever changing) role models. It is as if by imitating the object of his envy, the narcissist becomes that object. So, narcissists are likely to adopt their boss' typical gestures, the vocabulary of a successful politician, the dress code of a movie star, the views of an esteemed tycoon, even the countenance and actions of the (fictitious) hero of a movie or a novel.”

I have seen this with Mike in many ways. It was only years later that I discovered that many of the things Mike did were because Tony did them. I remember Tony came up once and was dressed in a really weird type shirt. The next time I saw Mike he was wearing the same type of shirt. I believe now that is what is happening with the prosperity churches that is their new mark of identification.


I too noticed this With Tony. I think that this explains much of the physical transormation that we've seen in Mike and Cyndi over the years.

X. 1. Poor Interpersonal Boundaries - Equilibrium for Narcissists is a state of fusion with others who have something they need. Whether the Narcissist deliberately sets out to undermine your autonomy or just ignores your separate existence, that predisposition to fusion means that you will not only be expected to do what the Narcissist wants but also to know what that is, to want it yourself, and - this is important - to be able to produce it.....If the Narcissist wants you for something, you become an extension of her Self, like an extra arm on her body. She may flatter you, offer you rewards, or otherwise try to seduce you to get you into her web. If she already has power over you, she may shame or manipulate you to keep you under her thumb. Her goal is to annihilate the boundaries between you, to own you, as it were. Separateness will be viewed as a threat, and you will experience repeated violations of your personal boundaries....Personal boundaries are seen as an obstacle to complete control and are routinely violated.

Twice I made appointments with staff members and was speaking with them and they were interupted. The staff member had to get out and tend to Mike. There was no thought that the person who was serving on staff or the person coming to the office was important in the eyes of God also. The feeling was “The MIKE wants me The MIKE gets me.”


Again, I have witnessed this many times. I shared with my spouse just a couple of days ago, that when Pastor Mike says to jump, the staff doesn't even ask "how high?", they are expected to know. They drop EVERYTHING to accomplish what ever it is that Mike wants, regardless of how unrealistic his request may be.

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Re: Turning Point Church World Outreach Center-Tell Your Story
Posted by: Brokenhearted ()
Date: March 05, 2009 12:23AM

saw a memo in the office the other day that said "we need to be very careful what we say to people on the phone or at the desk. Here is a list of topics we are NOT to talk about. pastor jackie, tony cunningham, apostolic ministry, newspaper interviews, youth on school campuses. take a msg and give to kari lewis or jeff barnes."

Wasn't there a staff meeting just a couple of days ago to clear up all of this info, and to help the staff know how to respond to these questions? Or was the staff meeting held only to issue the gag order?

Was anyone there who would speak up and let us know if these things were addressed?

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