I'm not following you, DoD.

How could a person's salvation be in jeopardy when standing up for Christ and His gospel against lies and pretensions? We are called to take such stands. Turning Point's offense is first and foremost against the Truth, and only God can forgive them for that. As for me, I'm going to keep on speaking out against blatantly false doctrine, heresy, and perversion of the Gospel wherever/whenever I find it in the church. It's not a matter of forgiving; it's a matter of warning, and that is the most loving thing I can do for the people who have been deceived or who might be deceived or who are becoming undeceived.

Maybe I've misunderstood your meaning. Perhaps you could clarify as to how you are suggesting we apply the words of this prayer to the situation at hand.

Also, could you explain to me how/why you feel your salvation might be hanging in the balance? I am not an advocate of "eternal security," per se, but I'm also not of the persuasion that we forfeit our salvation by speaking out against heresy, even if it may seem "unkind" to do so.

As to whether or not defrauded persons feel free in their conscience to seek to hold the leaders of TP (former and current), responsible for their underhanded, illegal, immoral, and ungodly handling of church funds, is up to them. I don't believe anyone will be condemned for calling these church leaders--especially Mike and Cyndi--to account. We're called to keep each other accountable in the church. We can require accountability and extend forgiveness at the same time, just as when as a kid I was corrected and held accountable for my wrongdoing--including consequences--and yet was still extended forgiveness so that it was "let go" once dealt with on the human plane of justice. (Those consequences are what helped me realize/learn that the stuff I did that hurt other people wasn't trivial, nor was it OK to keep doing.)

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Daughter of Dorcas
The Lord's Prayer Words
(traditional)

Our Father, who art in heaven,
hallowed be thy name.
Thy Kingdom come,
thy will be done,
on earth as it is in heaven
Give us this day our daily bread.
And forgive us our trespasses,
as we forgive those who trespass against us.
And lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from evil.
For thine is the kingdom,
the power and the glory,
for ever and ever.

Amen.

Think about this in terms of what we have all been through and make your own choices. But remember, we will all be accountable to the Lord for our actions and our failures to act. I choose to do what the Lord would have me do. I will not risk my salvation.

D of D

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/20/2010 05:40AM by LearningPoint.

STEPS: I think one of the most painful pieces of this puzzle is when you find people in abusive situations and they are unable to leave, unable to make healthy choices. Just as spouses in violent relationships sometimes return again and again to be abused, people who are in spiritually abusive relationships often find it very difficult to leave.

Jeff: The phenomena of not being able to leave has two parts. First, if you are outside a spiritually abusive system, you are the enemy. And secondly, although it is very easy to get in, it is very difficult to get out once you are in. It is exactly the same as in any very dysfunctional family. The fear is that if a person gets out of the family, they might tell the secret. So there is a lot of incentive to keep people inside the system. People in abusive systems think that the inside of the system is the only safe place. If you associate with or connect to people outside the system, that is not safe. You can get hurt doing that. So just stay in here where it is safe. Those people out there will lead you away from God or from the things God wants. So it’s safest to stay in here with the leaders, who are the only ones who really know what God wants. The paranoia is that any kind of break from “us” and return to “them” would be disastrous. What makes this even more hurtful is that an individual’s relationship with God is taken hostage. It’s not just that the leader is worried that you are going to fall from grace if you associate with outsiders—or that you might tell outsiders what it’s like in here. It’s more like if you do tell the truth, you will be wrong and God will get you for that. God will be the enforcer. Bottom line: Stay in here or God will punish you.

STEPS: People in spiritually abusive systems have usually invested a lot in the system.

Jeff: Sure. You invest so much—and you are required to invest so much—in abusive systems that your world becomes pretty small. Sometimes people forget relationship skills that are necessary for relating to people outside the system. After a while you don’t have anybody outside the system that you are close to. So that makes the dependence on the system even stronger. On a human level, when we invest a lot, we hate to lose our investment. So we sometimes invest more to try to get a return on the original investment. Which means we have more to lose. Which means there is an even higher incentive to invest more. Some people have invested incredible amounts of their money, their emotions, their time and their energy in abusive systems.A family I worked with recently was part of a small network of families. They only had associations with people in this small network. Their kids took piano lessons from someone in the group. If they leave that group, their kids lose their piano teacher. They lose the contacts with their sports teams. They lose not just the investment in the system—all the energy, time, money and emotions that they invested in getting the group to function—but they also lose all their social contacts and all the extracurricular things that are dependent on the group. This is very similar to the reason why a woman who is being battered doesn’t leave. If she leaves she has nothing. Going from something, albeit abusive, to nothing can be even more terrifying than staying where you are. So you stay, hoping it will turn around. Even if it is irrational to outsiders, the desire to stay put is very powerful when you are facing the loss of everything you know.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/20/2010 10:14AM by TurningPointReject.

STEPS: Let’s change the focus a bit and talk about how to recover from spiritual abuse. First, what about recovery for perpetrators of spiritual abuse? People in general don’t tend to be very hopeful about perpetrators of any kind of abuse. And for some good reasons. What’s your take on that?

Jeff: I think that pessimism is justified. First of all, in order for someone to recover from something, they have to realize that there is a problem, something to recover from. And when you have so much invested in being “right,” in being the one who “knows,” and you have led so many people down the road—well, it takes us back to the equity issue. Perpetrators of abuse have a major equity investment in the system. It’s hard to lose that. Also, it would have to be a horrifying realization to recognize that many of the things you have been doing for God have really hurt people. There is an incredible amount of equity that would be lost by admitting the need for help in this area. God will always offer grace. That is not the issue. The issue here is whether or not a perpetrator has a capacity to receive grace. Most don’t even think they need it. Grace just bounces off. It’s just like with any other issue. If the person who needs help doesn’t think they need help, then no one can help them.

STEPS: What is it that breaks through these kinds of barriers to receiving grace?

Jeff: It can just be tiredness that finally gets us to the point where we are ready to receive help. Sometimes all the pretense and denial is just too exhausting to continue, and we give it up. My instinct about what Jesus would say to perpetrators is that he would say, “Try harder.” He would say, “Be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect.” Then maybe a few would say, “I can’t.” And there would be hope for those folks. But most would say, “Okay, I can do that.” They would just try hard, try harder, try their hardest to be better, to be more correct. And maybe later they would be tired enough to understand what Jesus was really saying to them.

STEPS: It’s kind of like in early AA when people who came to meetings and were asked, “Have you lost your marriage yet?” or “Have you lost your job yet?” And if the answer was no, some old-timers would say, “Well, you probably still need some more experience with alcohol. Go out and get some more experience.” If you are not yet sick and tired of being sick and tired, then the cure won’t work.

Jeff: Yes. So go do some more, and if you get tired, we’ll still be here to help out. When Jesus interacted with the rich young ruler he told him, “Do everything that the law requires.” And the guy said, “I’ve done that already.” He should have said right away, “I haven’t and there’s no way I can do that.” But he was still deep in denial. So Jesus gave him a task that he couldn’t do: “Give up everything and follow me.” That he couldn’t do. Now some people look at that text and see it as just about selfishness—that the man was too selfish to give up his wealth. But I don’t think that text is about selfishness at all. The man should have answered, “I can’t” to Jesus’ first question. If he had said “I can’t” then there would have been grace. But when he was still that deep in denial, Jesus said in effect, “Well, you must need more experience before you will be ready to receive the help you need.”

STEPS: Just to be clear, you are not pessimistic about recovery for people who have abused others but who recognize what they have done and repent and seek healing.

Jeff: That’s right. I’m not pessimistic about recovery for anybody, for anything. I’m hopeful. That’s why I do what I do. But I am aware of the track record and of how difficult it is for spiritually abusive people to see what’s real and to change that pattern.

For more click on this link: [www.spiritualabuse.com]

Forgiveness is not dependent on someone asking for it. Forgiveness is the Lord's requirement for each of us so that we do not end up like those he wants us to forgive. Standing up to leadership is not something I have shyed away from. I don't know about everyone but my husband and I have asked for our Stewardship campaign donation we made to be refunded to us. The Stewardship moneys were not spent for the purpose we donated it or way we would have approved had they asked, which they did not, a church's failure to use funds for the purpose the donation was made is illegal. So we requested the return of the money we donated. But I forgive Jeff Barnes for not standing up to Mike Villamor and Tony Cunningham. I also forgive him for giving Mike $50,000.00 from the stewardship fund to get out of town so he can go to another state and do the same thing to someone else.

Will the leaders of TPC come to a place where they can admit and confess that they were living life as a cult? Will they be able to bring themselves to speak that word? Or will they dance around the edges...in order to escape the grasp of grace and salvation? Only time will tell.

TPC is the only church that Jeff has ever really known. He has a lot of equity invested in the lie that is TPC. Its teachings and its actions are deeply ingrained in his heart and in his mind. I think they referred to it as "DNA". DNA is at the very core of who you are. Is Jeff willing to look at and confront his core? Does Jeff have the capacity to receive Grace? Time will tell.

I do know that God is willing and able...is Jeff?

Why did Jeff and the Elders choose to enable Mike by giving him money so he could leave town?

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TurningPointReject
Why did Jeff and the Elders choose to enable Mike by giving him money so he could leave town?

And where did he go?
Even now, the Elders protect and support him. Even after everything went sour. This black fungus has gone all the way down into the roots and it's not coming out until you pull up the tree and have a look. Jeff and the others can post speach after speach and flower them up as much as they want but the truth is evident and they see your forgiveness as weakness. They WILL take advantage of it.

Forgiveness does not mean that we take everything at face value. I am no longer angry with J&K, or the leaders at TP. I will be honest though, and say that I still don't trust them. Trust is something that has to be earned, and it will take time....

I've heard rumblings that things are happening, that reconcilliation is coming, but I don't know the details. It would be nice if TP leaders would be open about what's going on, and not so secretive. That would go a long way towards rebuilding trust.

Quote
Mville04

Quote
TurningPointReject
Why did Jeff and the Elders choose to enable Mike by giving him money so he could leave town?

And where did he go?
Even now, the Elders protect and support him. Even after everything went sour. This black fungus has gone all the way down into the roots and it's not coming out until you pull up the tree and have a look. Jeff and the others can post speach after speach and flower them up as much as they want but the truth is evident and they see your forgiveness as weakness. They WILL take advantage of it.

First, Mike & Cyndi were asked to separate from the church.... the money, i dunno. Second, Mike and Cyndi live in Texas (I may be wrong, but I'm pretty sure)

TPCWOC sermon for Sunday Sept. 19th by Jeff Barnes is now online. Awaken :Creativity. Last Sunday was Awaken courage. Jeff has his courage now and he is going to have more creativity. Jeff says, God does not want to control you. He is not a controlling God with his thumb on you. God does not shove you in this box and this is who you are going to be. God wants to liberate you. He wants to free you. He wants to make you that person outside that cage. There are two kinds of people , there are bacony people and then there is basement people. Bacony people encourage you and basement people are the critics who bring you down. Jeff says, the day they shut your casket you will look around and say God use me to impact people. The enemy does not want this to happen. And the devil is like a roaring lion. Don,t be selfish. Stand up against the enemy. Make choices like how to spend your money? Who to be generous too? You have a limited amount of resources. You have a choice to make.( That is the reason Jeff gave false Apostle Mike the 50k to leave town, Jeff was just practicing creativity with the limited amount of money left in the church bank account ) Jeff goes on to teach you a misconception in the church a big one. Its that children of God are to have the mind of Christ to be Christ like. Like little Christ. Heres the deal , it is promoted in the church that we are suppose to be just like each other. Follow the way I am. Follow my style, look like me. Wierd things happen. ( Like a self proclaimed Apostle who wants your double honour ) The problem with the church is that we want every one alike.We want to domesticate the church. We want a sanitize version. Its really boring. Jeff likes eccentric people. Jeff does not want you to line up like cattle any more when you come to church. Jeff says, that some people are nuts and God loves nuts. ( you got rid of one big nut ) Jeff says we are not to be like a Zoo.Jeff says that a judgemental attitude is a nightmare.( Jeff has had a hard time sleeping lately ) Jeff says people have been missing lately and his pastoral red light has been going off. Jeff shares a personal note, we are rebuilding and it is a exciting time. What can I do to help? If you want to go the negative route then they do not build statues of critics. I have had people come up and say did you know that. Hey,thank you for explainng that problem for the 10 time over and over again. Well its still a problem. So you will have a solution in you. Its going to be fun to see. What is God going to do thru this next phase. For those of you who are not here. That is cool. God bless them. I just don't think people are suppose to be here where we are traveling and going. Jeff says he had a talk with the consultant on Friday. I hope that Jeff has the courage and creativity to do everthing that the consultant tells him to do . And not to ignore his advice.