Compromising scripture has been a big part of the demise of TPC and RLc, it is their blueprint they keep following. By embracing false teachings of Tony Cunningham, In SOMA Cunningham would site heretics like Charles Finny or modern day false teachers Heretics like Brian D. McLaren and Rob Bell. For TPC to position its self as being politically correct by licencing a woman to be a pastor they will continue to build there foundation of a CULT.

1 Timothy 2:11-13 Its clear "A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve."

"You have to look at this whole thing from a historical perspective."

I think in a nutshell this sums up what has been and most likely still is the problem.Look at it from a biblical perspective or you are against God!Pretty basic!

Quote
BraveHeart
Compromising scripture has been a big part of the demise of TPC and RLc, it is their blueprint they keep following. By embracing false teachings of Tony Cunningham, In SOMA Cunningham would site heretics like Charles Finny or modern day false teachers Heretics like Brian D. McLaren and Rob Bell. For TPC to position its self as being politically correct by licencing a woman to be a pastor they will continue to build there foundation of a CULT.

1 Timothy 2:11-13 Its clear "A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve."

You are entitled to your opinion just as I am entitled to mine. I have respected your right to state your opionion on this forum but I draw the line at your gender right to insult mine.

The Role of Women in the Church
“Bloom Where You’re Planted” March 2001
I. Some examples of women who led or served spiritually
A. Old Testament
1. Women who served at the entrance to the Tabernacle - Exodus 38:8,
1 Samuel 2:22
2. Miriam - a leader and prophetess, Exodus 15:20, Micah 6:4, who stood by
bulrushes watching Moses in the basket. She spoke to Pharaoh’s daughter, offered to
go get a nurse for the baby, and brought Moses’ mother.
3. Deborah - a leader, prophetess and judge, saved Israel from the Canaanites. Barak
would not go into battle without her, and forfeited the glory of his victory over Sisera
to have Deborah with him. Judges 4,5
4. Jael - the woman who killed Sisera, a warrior who compromised her family and
safety by driving a tent stake through his head. Judges 4,5
5. Ruth - participated in the Christ-line, because she stayed with Naomi in spite of
great personal risk. Her following of Naomi’s God and obedience to Naomi’s
guidance led her to Boaz, with whom she had Obed, father of Jesse, father of David.
Book of Ruth - the kinsman-redeemer.
6. Hannah - Samuel’s mother, who was barren, sought the Lord for a child and vowed
to dedicate him for service to the Lord. 1 Samuel 1:1-2:11
7. Abigail - married to a fool, Nabal, who raised David’s ire to the point that David
threatened to kill his entire household and servants. She interceded and prevented
David from the sin of unwarranted bloodshed. 1 Samuel 25
8. The wise woman - who confronted Joab, who was laying siege to the city of Abel
Beth Maacah to kill Sheba who was hiding there. She urged him not to destroy the
city, and delivered him the head of Sheba. 2 Samuel 20:14-22
9. Huldah - a prophetess whose counsel was sought by Hilkiah the priest and an
entourage of the king’s officers, at the king’s instruction. 2 Kings 22:14,
2 Chronicles 34:22
10. Singers and musicians in worship - Ezra 2, Nehemiah 7, Psalm 68
11. Esther - who saved the Israelites in captivity from utter destruction, preserved the
Christ-line, and paved the way for the rebuilding of Jerusalem. Book of Esther
B. The Gospels
1. Mary - mother of Jesus, “blessed among women.” The four Gospels
2. Elizabeth - mother of John the Baptist, the voice crying in the wilderness who
prepared the way for Christ. The four Gospels
3. Anna - prophetess and widow who served in the temple in Jerusalem. Luke 2:36-38
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4. The Samaritan woman who spoke with Jesus at the well - convinced the men of
the city of Samaria to go see him. John 4
5. The women disciples - mentioned throughout the Gospels who followed Jesus,
ministered to him, heard his teachings, and served him and the apostles in various
ways.
6. Zebedee’s children and others who stood by the cross – followed Joseph of
Arimathaea as he put Jesus’ body in a tomb. Matthew 28:55ff, Mark 15:40ff,
Luke 23:55ff
7. Mary Magdalene, Joanna, Mary the mother of James, and others - first
witnesses of the empty tomb. Mary Magdalene was the first to see and speak to the
resurrected Christ. They all were witnesses of the resurrection to the disciples.
John 20:1-18, Luke 24, Mark 16, Matthew 28
C. Acts and the Epistles
1. Priscilla - a fellow-laborer with Paul, who laid down her own neck for him with her
husband Aquila. Acts 18:2,18,26; Romans 16:3ff, 1 Corinthians 16:19
2. Lydia - a seller of purple dyes in Thyatira, to whom Paul witnessed, and who
welcomed Paul into her home after his release from prison there; also had a church in
her home. Acts 16
3. Philip’s daughters - prophetesses. Acts 21:9
4. Phoebe - a deaconess of the church at Cenchrea, and helper of Paul and many
others. Romans 16:1,2
5. Mary - a laborer for Paul and his company. Romans 16:6
6. Junia - a kinsman and fellow-laborer of Paul. There is a textual question as to
whether she was an apostle or was noted among the apostles. Romans 16:7
7. Tryphena, Tryphosa and Persis - laborers in the Lord. Romans 16:12
II. Absence of enumeration of gender-specific tasks in the Church Epistles
A. In the sections of Scripture that list giftings and ministries, there is an absence
of reference to gender. Some examples are:
Romans 12:4-8
1 Corinthians 12:12-31
Ephesians 4:11-13
B. In the context of living by the law vs. living by faith, the Word of God states,
“You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, …There is neither Jew nor
Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus…
and heirs according to the promise.” Galatians 3:26-29. (NIV)
C. Two sections that might be sighted as gender-specific, but are not meant to
limit the service of women:
Titus 2:4 - lists topics elder women are to teach younger women
Timothy, Titus – qualifications of a leader, “husband of one wife”
3
III. Exclusion or limitation of women in leadership
There are more than 100 passages in the Bible that affirm women in leadership and fewer
than 6 that appear to oppose it. What, then, is the origin of the idea that women should be
excluded from spiritual leadership?
A. Difficult Scriptures
1. 1 Timothy 2:11-15
a. A woman should learn in quietness and full submission.
• KJV translates “quietness.” Elsewhere hesuchia, is “tranquility,”
“peacefulness.” In a time when Hebrew, Greek and Roman cultures excluded
them, Paul’s statement was an invitation to women to become educated. In
each of those cultures, all students were to learn in peacefulness and
submission to the instructor.
b. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be
silent.
• “Silent” is again hesuchia, “peaceful.”
• “To teach or have authority over” is didaskein…oude authentein.
Authentein has 4 meanings in Greek literature: “to begin or author,” “to
usurp,” “to rule or dominate,” or “to claim authorship or origination.” There
are no other Biblical occurrences of the word by which to determine its
meaning.
Examining its context, immediate and remote, reveals at least 22 references to
false doctrines or myths in 1st and 2nd Timothy. Some examples are:
1 Timothy 1:3,4,6
1 Timothy 4:1,3,7
1 Timothy 5:13,15
1 Timothy 6:3,4
2 Timothy 2:14,16,18,23,24
2 Timothy 3:6-8, 13
2 Timothy 4:3,4
It is evident that the overriding purpose of 1st and 2nd Timothy, written to him
while he was at Ephesus, was to clarify sound doctrine from erroneous and
damaging myths, teachings, and practices that were infiltrating the church at
Ephesus. These myths, which stem primarily from Gnosticism, are both generally
and specifically addressed in 1st and 2nd Timothy. Some examples are:
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• The 1945 discovery of Gnostic writings in Egypt reveal frequent
occurrence of nonsense syllables, gibberish, which may explain
Paul’s references to meaningless talk (1 Timothy 1:6) and godless
chatter (1 Timothy 6:20; 2 Timothy 2:16).
• 1 Timothy 5:13, busybodies, periergoi, elsewhere “workers of
magic.”
• 1 Timothy 4:7, old wives tales, actually Gnostic myths kept alive
by older women.
• Some Gnostics sects taught that women could produce offspring
without a male. They were pre-occupied with knowledge of
origins, and “endless genealogies,” referenced by Paul in
1 Timothy 1:4.
Acts 18, 19, 20 lend some perspective of the intensity of the opposition to Paul’s
ministry at Ephesus, and the stronghold of idolatry and mythology there.
By context, the correct definition of authentein for this section of Scripture is “to
claim authorship of.” The meaning of the phrase is “to teach or claim authorship
of.” Oude in this case is conjunctive, not disjunctive, meaning it links the idea of
teaching and claiming authorship of. In other words, an appropriate
understanding is “do not allow a woman to teach or claim that she is the author of
man.” The statement specifically refutes Gnostic myths that held woman (Eve) as
the author of man (Adam).
c. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived…
• Aside from Gnostic mythology, v. 12 appears to make no logical sense. If
there is a causal relationship between v. 13 and v. 12, i.e., Eve must be silent
because Adam was formed first, then why not prohibit women from a vast
array of activity for the same reason – singing, working, cooking, driving,
running errands?
• By the order of creation, women would be less superior than all the fish and
animals, but this contradicts Genesis 1:26ff.
• Many versions of Gnostic myths circulated Ephesus. One presented Satan as
beneficent and God as evil because He created the material world. Satan
released Eve from her deception and she became the mediator who brought
true knowledge to mankind. Another taught that Eden was ruled by a lesser
deity who kept Adam and Eve in ignorance. Satan gave Eve gnosis,
knowledge, which she gave to Adam. Others have Eve pre-exisiting Adam;
some have Adam coming from Eve.
• Refutes Gnostic myths, which asserted that Eve was created before Adam and
that the creator was a goddess; not God. Also, that Eve was all-wise.
• Gnostics did not originate the idea of woman’s responsibility for the sins of
the world. The earliest known recording of the myth of Pandora’s box dates
to 850 BC. The idea continues through Apocryphal writings of approximately
250 BC: Ecclesiasticus, or The Writings of Ben Sira, “From woman a
beginning of sin and because of her all die.” The Babylonian Talmud
contains the “10 Curses of Eve.”
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d. But the women shall be saved through childbearing.
• Appears to contradict Romans 10:9,10. Cannot possibly define salvation for
women.
• Gnostics taught that anything corporeal was to be despised, and the physical
body was evil. They believed that the soul was trapped in a body, as a “spark
of the divine.” Their great goal was to re-unite all the sparks, restoring
completeness to the great god. Childbearing was a deterrent to this goal. They
taught that women led to marriage, marriage to birth, birth to destruction.
Some Gnostic sects forbid marriage, held their women in common, and
forcibly aborted women found pregnant (sometimes in a ritualistic manner).
So, while in doctrine exalting woman as the dispenser of wisdom, they
denigrated her in life.
In its proper interpretation, this is a tremendously compassionate and freeing
section of Scripture. Unfortunately, it has been used throughout the ages as a
curse and restraint to women. The early Church Fathers have used these verses to
teach that women are more easily deceived than men, are responsible for all sin,
and are therefore condemned to subservience. This flies in the face of the many
scriptures that teach of salvation for all by Jesus Christ. It also contradicts the
scriptures that specifically pin the responsibility for sin on Adam. “To make
women subservient while exalting Adam to rule is to dishonor the atonement of
Christ.” (Bushnell)
This section of 1 Timothy has been used to cut off women’s sphere of influence in
the Church, by limiting it to bearing children. “The woman taught once, and
ruined all. On this account, let her not teach…the whole female race
transgressed…Let her not, however, grieve. God hath given her no small
consolation, that of childbearing.” John Chrysostom, early Church Father, 400
AD.
While bearing and raising children is a great delight and privilege, this section of
Scripture was never intended to command a limit on a woman’s Christian service.
e. Practical problems that arise from interpreting this as not allowing women to
teach
The practical difficulties of applying an interpretation that says “women should not
teach” are akin to the difficulties of determining how one should be water baptized!
Churches and scholars disagree about the meaning of “teach,” who the pupils
should be, and what the proper setting is. The various interpretations contradict
other sections of Scripture.
6
• Is Paul commanding women not to teach in any setting?
Titus 2:4-5
• Is Paul forbidding women to teach men?
Acts 18:24-26, Priscilla teaching Apollos
Lois and Eunice teaching Timothy
• Is Paul forbidding women to teach in a church service?
1 Corinthians 14; Acts 21:9
• Does Paul mean women can speak in church only if they are not speaking
authoritatively? How does one determine “authoritatively”?
• Is Paul’s instruction a blanket command for a woman never to hold any
authority over a man? How would that notion be practically applied in
secular life? Should a woman decline any job offer that puts her in a
supervisory role over a man?
• Some churches teach that a woman needs to have a man “validate” her
authority, but allow for exceptions if one isn’t available, e.g., the mission
field.
• Some churches dispute where a woman is allowed to address a group -
behind the pulpit, in front of the pulpit, not in the “sanctuary,” in a Sunday
school room.
• Some churches uphold that a woman can’t teach or preach from the pulpit,
but make allowances for Sunday school, women’s ministry, etc.
Incidentally, these are usually areas of short-staffing, so exceptions are
made.
2. Other difficult Scriptures
a. 1 Corinthians 11:11,12
b. 1 Corinthians 14:34,35
(See the references cited below for thorough and accurate understanding of these
Scriptures.)
B. Translations that “water down” the significance of women or alter the
meaning altogether.
• The translating of “Junias” in Romans 16:12 as a masculine form of the name,
even though no masculine form is found elsewhere in the Bible or in secular
writings.
• The translation of presbutis in Titus 2:3 and 1 Timothy 5:2 as “aged women.”
The word is most frequently translated “elder”, with emphasis on dignity,
wisdom, and office or ministry.
• The translation of hagnos in Titus 2:4-5 as “chaste” in the KJV, “pure” in the
NIV. It is typically translated “holy.”
• The translation of oikouros as “busy at home” in the NIV. “Keepers at home”
in the KJV is thought to better convey the idea. This is the word’s only
occurrence in Scripture.
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• The translation of sophrosunes in 1 Timothy 2:15 as “propriety” or “modesty”
when referring to women, but “goodness” when referring to men.
• The translation of kosmios as “modest” when referring to women, but “of
good behavior” when referring to men.
• The translation of oikodespoteo in 1 Timothy 5:14 as “manage their homes”
NIV or “guide the house” KJV. It means “to rule or master the house.”
• The translation of Deborah as “mother” in Judges 5:7, while the Hebrew word
used really means “female chief.”
• The consistent translation of the Hebrew word cha-yil as “virtuous” with
respect to women. Proverbs 12:4, 31:10, Ruth 3:11. Elsewhere, the word is
translated “army” or “war” 58 times; “host” or “forces” 43 times; “might” or
“power” 16 times; “goods,” “riches,” “substance,” and “wealth” 31 times;
“valor” 28 times; “strength” 11 times. “Powerful” or “capable” would also be
appropriate translations.
Such translation patterns have come from erroneous theology with roots
in mythology, Talmudic tradition, and Gnosticism that infested Christian
teachings and blinded the minds of Church Fathers, translators, teachers, and
ministers such as St. Augustine, Thomas Aquinas, Origen, Jerome, Tertullian,
Martin Luther, John Knox, and others up to our current time.
C. Confusing the role of women in the Church with the role of women in
marriage and family.
1. Genesis 3:16, “your desire will be to your husband and he will rule over you.”
• Understood to be God’s will rather than a statement of the consequences of
Adam’s disobedience and Eve’s deception.
• Generalized to the Church and society, though it is a statement about
marriage.
• Leadership and accountability of the husband vs. unwarranted oppression.
Genesis 1:26-31; 2:18-25, Old Testament Law and the Church Epistles
indicate that the man is the head of the family, but accountable to lead with
love. The wife is accountable to submit to his leadership.
2. Old Testament Law – Does the Old Testament law support the servitude of
women in society?
• Punishment for adultery same for men and women.
• Offering same for a male child as female.
• Women inherited property when there were no sons – Numbers 27:1-7.
• Many of the laws interpreted to support subservience really addressed
protection and provision.
8
• Polygamy in question –
• Practiced for protection and provision of otherwise destitute
women.
• Tolerated by God, but not written into the Law. Several passages
indicate God’s acceptance of it.
• Levitical law consistently addresses “wife,” not wives.
3. Old Testament cultures – Was a woman totally restricted socially and
spiritually?
• She met and conversed with men in public.
• She could travel in a foreign country without suspicion of their character.
• She could appear in court.
• She entertained guests with banquets, etc, sometimes without her husband
Present.
• She conferred with her husband regarding the marriage of their children.
• She had access to and use of the family resources.
• She managed great wealth and directed households with many servants.
• She heard from the Lord directly and acted on His instruction independently.
of her husband.
• She spoke with angels.
• She held office and took part in matters of public interest.
IV. God’s Call to Women, as to any believer
Acts 2:17
Isaiah 32:9-15
Colossians 3:16,17,23,24
Author’s personal note: I do not believe that chauvinism or feminism has any
place in the Church. I believe that, there is neither male nor female in service or
calling. I believe that in a marriage relationship, both husband and wife have a
commitment to each other and each must carry out his/her Christian service in
light of that commitment.
Richard and Catherine Kroeger closed their book, I Suffer Not a Woman, with a
salute to mothers as the great evangelists, because of their ability to instruct and
influence the future leaders of the Church. I agree. Truly, motherhood is not a
woman’s salvation nor her limitation. It is an awesome privilege, as are all her
giftings in service to Christ.
9
References:
In addition to research tools such as Hebrew and Greek lexicons, Bible Dictionaries,
concordances, and interlinears, the following books were invaluable:
10 Lies The Church Tells Women, J Lee Grady, Creation House, 2000
God’s Word to Women, Katherine C. Bushnell, Good Shepherd Ministries, 1923
I Suffer Not a Woman, Richard Clark Kroeger and Catherine Clark Kroeger, Baker Book House
Company, 1992

D of D:

You go girl. I agree with you on this one. You presented it so much better than I could have. God Bless

To whom it may concern:

The subject of this thread is "Turning Point Church World Outreach Center"

It is not women and their role within the church.

This is not a thread for theological debate.

Please stay on topic.

Villamor siting in Marysville....

I am sorry for my delay; I have been driving over the road into Canada and Washington, unable to access the computer till yesterday as I'm back home in California.

D of D, based upon what you have posted over the past 2+ years I believe you and I would agree on many foundational theological topics such as God, Jesus, Salvation, the Trinity, the Cross, yet I am not sure where you are on "the inspired (God breathed) word of God, the bible?" or the doctrine of imputation?
Maybe we should back up and touch on these fundamental and foundational theologies via PM to better understand each other.
I know some people get all stressed out when using the word “theology” but theology is simply a way of defining what one believes. Theology is what the bible teaches about it’s self, or what the book of Mormon or the Koran teaches about itself.

I simply question the bases of your theology.
However, reading your rebuttal………………
…..WOW! WAS THAT EVER WORDY!
what was it you said about gibberish?
Yes, we can have a since of humor, and it is good to take a big step back and get a good look at the big picture. Certainly not to some author who has an ax to grind, or promoting a political agenda. The authors opinions sited above are just that, OPINIONS, and seriously, that is some shaky ground to be standing on, because this author is interjecting an assumption and or promoting an agenda without giving a clear biblical examples of Right and Wrong. The twisting of scriptures interjecting the authors agenda vs. seeking the will of God through the study and reading His word.

Don't you see, it is "OPINIONS" that have gotten Turning Point church and Radiant Life church OFF TRACK and into the ditch of being a CULT!
Look back at all the twisted scripture that came out of TURNING POINT & RADIANT LIFE, look at all the false teachings like Spiritual Parenting, Covenant Relationships, SOMA, the failed leadership models that were taught by Tony and Mike.
The only way for these church groups to turn around is to Stop Mangling and Twisting Scripture, Stop embracing the heresy of Universalism, Polygamy and Repent! Go to all the people they have wronged and apologize and make restitution. Go back to the Gospel of Jesus and trust in him.

I am sorry you took something like 1 Timothy 2:11-13 out of context. I was simply stating what the word of God teaches and I’m good with that. This passage does not in any way diminish the testimony of any of the great women of the bible. To imply there is contradiction in the bible with out and evidences is wrong. Furthermore for anyone to add a new meaning or interject a new definition to the word of God is wrong!

The answer is Pretty Simple:
1. THE GREAT WOMEN OF THE BIBLE WERE NEVER PASTORS OF A CHURCH!

2. WHEN AN OLD TESTAMENT WOMAN LED, IT WAS TO THE NATION OF ISRAEL’S SHAME!

Regardless of a person’s gender,
Our testimony should be in the fact that we were filthy shreds of human debris, proud to the thinking we are good. Especially faced with the holiness of God and his judgment, we deserve his wrath and punishment in Hell! Using the simple 10 commandments as a mirror so see how we measure up to God's standard, no not one of us is good!
The wonderful demonstration of God’s love is he gave his only Son to shed his blood for our sins. Just the thought of this should cause us to fall to our knees in repentance. Accessing God's grace, is done by Repenting of our sins, turning and Trusting in Jesus for our salvation.

I was hoping the best for TPCWOC after running into Tp people who told me that there have been alot of changes. What I don't understand is why last wednesday they had a false word-faith movement teacher show up to teach at the one 80 youth group.It was reported that word-faith movement pastor Jeremy Carpenter from Casey Treats north end word-faith movement church, christian faith center ,came there to teach the young people. Jeremy Carpenter also studied at word-faith movement Rhema bible training school. Why would TP let this false teacher teach the young people? Why does pastor judy like false word-faith-movement teacher Creflo Dollar. Does she really believe what he teaches on prosperity?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/24/2011 02:53PM by buddy.

Quote
buddy
I was hoping the best for TPCWOC after running into Tp people who told me that there have been alot of changes. What I don't understand is why last wednesday they had a false word-faith movement teacher show up to teach at the one 80 youth group.It was reported that word-faith movement pastor Jeremy Carpenter from Casey Treats north end word-faith movement church, christian faith center ,came there to teach the young people. Jeremy Carpenter also studied at word-faith movement Rhema bible training school. Why would TP let this false teacher teach the young people? Why does pastor judy like false word-faith-movement teacher Creflo Dollar. Does she really believe what he teaches on prosperity?

buddy its obvious that those who remain at turningpoint are not interested in the truth. when leaders were found to be dishonest, their followers still honored and followed them, when other leaders who now remain, found the truth about the so called evidence against Jackie, they did not publicly proclaim Mikes munipulations of facts, and his lies and slander towards her. being open and honest are NOT principals tp leadership grasps, but the worlds principals of covering up, smoothing over and making things look nice. If you talk to many members of tp you will hear things about how good the music is. how loving people are to them. how they feel like they belong to a community. Its all about them and how they feel. so the word of faith stuff fits perfect with their selfcentered worship. Its all about them, not HIM, its what make them feel good about themselves, and gives them worldly hope, such as prosperity, abundance, and so on. but as we know this world and all its stuff will fade away. that true happiness comes from loveing God and trusting Him, even when we dont get the stuff, by practicing Godly principals not worldly ones... of course Gods ways are not that popular with man.

Braveheart,

Please clean out your PM box I cannot respond to your PM until you do.

D of D