Re: Turning Point Church World Outreach Center-Tell Your Story
Posted by:
Saddened
()
Date: July 25, 2011 07:09AM
Quote
TurningPointReject
Villamor siting in Marysville....
Hide the silver.
To Braveheart and Ostracizedone,
Not everyone is going to agree with you on everything. That includes the role of women in the church. You have your views and other people have theirs. Do not belittle or put down someone for not believing what you believe, after all isn't that what the Villamors and their minions did to us and the Tony Cunningham did? I think when we get to Heaven we will find out that not a one of us was completely right and God loves us anyway even though we didn't have it all exactly correct. None of us have read or can read the original Bible in its original language. The translations that we have are translations of translations of translations so unless you know the original and can translate it correctly you don't know anything more than D of D or myself. We suffered enough for daring to move beyond TPC and its false teachings and we don't need anyone telling us we are wrong or what to think or believe. Those are matters best left to us and our families.
Saddened
Re: Turning Point Church World Outreach Center-Tell Your Story
Posted by:
ostracizedone
()
Date: July 25, 2011 11:07AM
Quote
SaddenedQuote
TurningPointReject
Villamor siting in Marysville....
None of us have read or can read the original Bible in its original language. The translations that we have are translations of translations of translations so unless you know the original and can translate it correctly you don't know anything more than .....................................................................................anyone else?
Small change to your post adds a whole lot of peoples "opinions" to your statement yas/no?
Re: Turning Point Church World Outreach Center-Tell Your Story
Posted by:
BraveHeart
()
Date: July 25, 2011 08:41PM
Dear Saddened, my heart goes out to you as I recognize you have seen the hurt fist hand
you said;
Not everyone is going to agree with you on everything. I'm not asking people to agree with me, I am simply pointing people to what the Bible teaches.
I hope you are not waffling in your faith to trust and believe the bible. As I continue to study the word of God it is constantly challenging my sinful nature and bringing correction to my heart. We can read our Bible and conclude several things to be true, historically this was an issue in the early church and many church leaders came together agreeing upon what we know today as the Niacin Creed. I appreciate these people because they came together to resolve differences by going to the bible.
the Father Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
and of all things visible and invisible;
And in one Lord Jesus Christ,
the only begotten Son of God,
begotten of his Father before all worlds,
God of God, Light of Light,
very God of very God,
begotten, not made,
being of one substance with the Father;
by whom all things were made;
who for us men and for our salvation
came down from heaven,
and was incarnate by the Holy Ghost
of the Virgin Mary,
and was made man;
and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered and was buried;
and the third day he rose again
according to the Scriptures,
and ascended into heaven,
and sitteth on the right hand of the Father;
and he shall come again, with glory,
to judge both the quick and the dead;
whose kingdom shall have no end.
And I believe in the Holy Ghost the Lord, and Giver of Life,
who proceedeth from the Father [and the Son];
who with the Father and the Son together
is worshipped and glorified;
who spake by the Prophets.
And I believe one holy Catholic and Apostolic Church;
I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins;
and I look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. AMEN.
The desire to know God through his word is a constant growth. I would hope that through all our church experience you would recognize, the Christian Church is under constant attack. The roll of the church is to equip the believers (sheep) however, in many circles the church has been changed from a safe place to feed the sheep, to a Free-for-all entertainment package for Goats and Sheep. Pastors riding in on a Harley trying to be relevant, hip and cool, but mostly drawing attention to them selves. The sheep come to church and discover a watered down junk food message geared towards the Goats or in our case we discovered a wolf in the pulpit.
That includes the role of women in the church. You have your views and other people have theirs. My friend, the question is what does the bible say?? Yes there are great women of the bible; "D of D" presented a good example of New Testament Women of the faith. However not one of these women were pastors! that’s the bottom line! Don't go down that slippery slope of adding to, or redefining what "you think" a passage says by taking it out of context or conjecturing a meaning based on incomplete or inconclusive information.
Do not belittle or put down someone for not believing what you believe, after all isn't that what the Villamors and their minions did to us and the Tony Cunningham did? NO!
What the Villamors and the Cunningham did was just that, redefine the nature of God redefine what the bible says, going against the bible, adding new rules, traditions, and lists of what one must do to be (saved) accepted into their inter circle. They abandoned orthodox Christianity buy embracing Hersey's and false teachers. These people have hurt many and still continue to so.
what I think when we get to Heaven we will find out that not a one of us was completely right and God loves us anyway even though we didn't have it all exactly correct. Be very careful about what "you think"
None of us have read or can read the original Bible in its original language. The translations that we have are translations of translations of translations so unless you know the original and can translate it correctly you don't know anything more than D of D or myself.
Have you ever studded the history of the bible? Out of all books ever published or transcribed the Bible is the most accurate to it's original text, that in and of it's self is amazing! Especially when comparing to other ancient writers like Archimedes, Aristotle, Herodotus, or Homer.
Here is a brilliant presentation regarding the authenticity of the bible, please view these videos and consider the arguments and evidence presented within this video. The Authenticity Of The Bible, part one by Josh McDowell part 1
The authenticity of the bible part 2
The authenticity of the bible part 3 (I believe you will relay enjoy this one)
The authenticity of the bible part 4
The authenticity of the bible part 5
and part 6
We suffered enough for daring to move beyond TPC and its false teachings and we don't need anyone telling us we are wrong or what to think or believe. Those are matters best left to us and our families.
Saddened
Many have been hurt by the false teachings, coercion and manipulation of Mike and Tony. The church needs to get back to the preaching of the Gospel of Jesus Christ the rock . that is all I am pointing you to, the bible.
you said;
Not everyone is going to agree with you on everything. I'm not asking people to agree with me, I am simply pointing people to what the Bible teaches.
I hope you are not waffling in your faith to trust and believe the bible. As I continue to study the word of God it is constantly challenging my sinful nature and bringing correction to my heart. We can read our Bible and conclude several things to be true, historically this was an issue in the early church and many church leaders came together agreeing upon what we know today as the Niacin Creed. I appreciate these people because they came together to resolve differences by going to the bible.
I believe in one God,Quote
Niacin Creed
the Father Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
and of all things visible and invisible;
And in one Lord Jesus Christ,
the only begotten Son of God,
begotten of his Father before all worlds,
God of God, Light of Light,
very God of very God,
begotten, not made,
being of one substance with the Father;
by whom all things were made;
who for us men and for our salvation
came down from heaven,
and was incarnate by the Holy Ghost
of the Virgin Mary,
and was made man;
and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered and was buried;
and the third day he rose again
according to the Scriptures,
and ascended into heaven,
and sitteth on the right hand of the Father;
and he shall come again, with glory,
to judge both the quick and the dead;
whose kingdom shall have no end.
And I believe in the Holy Ghost the Lord, and Giver of Life,
who proceedeth from the Father [and the Son];
who with the Father and the Son together
is worshipped and glorified;
who spake by the Prophets.
And I believe one holy Catholic and Apostolic Church;
I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins;
and I look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. AMEN.
The desire to know God through his word is a constant growth. I would hope that through all our church experience you would recognize, the Christian Church is under constant attack. The roll of the church is to equip the believers (sheep) however, in many circles the church has been changed from a safe place to feed the sheep, to a Free-for-all entertainment package for Goats and Sheep. Pastors riding in on a Harley trying to be relevant, hip and cool, but mostly drawing attention to them selves. The sheep come to church and discover a watered down junk food message geared towards the Goats or in our case we discovered a wolf in the pulpit.
The over all health of the church in America has been greatly harmed by teachings of prosperity, Name it and Claim it, word faith heresy's, or the Universalism found in books like "The Shack" or Universalist teachings from Rob Bell and others. Turning Point is still under that attack with the current connection to Casey TreatQuote
John 10:11-18
“I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep. He who is a hired hand, and not a shepherd, who is not the owner of the sheep, sees the wolf coming, and leaves the sheep and flees, and the wolf snatches them and scatters them. He flees because he is a hired hand and is not concerned about the sheep. I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me, even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd. For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it again. No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This commandment I received from My Father.”
That includes the role of women in the church. You have your views and other people have theirs. My friend, the question is what does the bible say?? Yes there are great women of the bible; "D of D" presented a good example of New Testament Women of the faith. However not one of these women were pastors! that’s the bottom line! Don't go down that slippery slope of adding to, or redefining what "you think" a passage says by taking it out of context or conjecturing a meaning based on incomplete or inconclusive information.
Do not belittle or put down someone for not believing what you believe, after all isn't that what the Villamors and their minions did to us and the Tony Cunningham did? NO!
What the Villamors and the Cunningham did was just that, redefine the nature of God redefine what the bible says, going against the bible, adding new rules, traditions, and lists of what one must do to be (saved) accepted into their inter circle. They abandoned orthodox Christianity buy embracing Hersey's and false teachers. These people have hurt many and still continue to so.
what I think when we get to Heaven we will find out that not a one of us was completely right and God loves us anyway even though we didn't have it all exactly correct. Be very careful about what "you think"
None of us have read or can read the original Bible in its original language. The translations that we have are translations of translations of translations so unless you know the original and can translate it correctly you don't know anything more than D of D or myself.
Have you ever studded the history of the bible? Out of all books ever published or transcribed the Bible is the most accurate to it's original text, that in and of it's self is amazing! Especially when comparing to other ancient writers like Archimedes, Aristotle, Herodotus, or Homer.
Here is a brilliant presentation regarding the authenticity of the bible, please view these videos and consider the arguments and evidence presented within this video. The Authenticity Of The Bible, part one by Josh McDowell part 1
The authenticity of the bible part 2
The authenticity of the bible part 3 (I believe you will relay enjoy this one)
The authenticity of the bible part 4
The authenticity of the bible part 5
and part 6
We suffered enough for daring to move beyond TPC and its false teachings and we don't need anyone telling us we are wrong or what to think or believe. Those are matters best left to us and our families.
Saddened
Many have been hurt by the false teachings, coercion and manipulation of Mike and Tony. The church needs to get back to the preaching of the Gospel of Jesus Christ the rock . that is all I am pointing you to, the bible.
Re: Turning Point Church World Outreach Center-Tell Your Story
Posted by:
ostracizedone
()
Date: July 25, 2011 10:06PM
Quote "Many have been hurt by the false teachings, coercion and manipulation of Mike and Tony. The church needs to get back to the preaching of the Gospel of Jesus Christ that is all I am pointing you to, the bible."
Hey Braveheart,If you point this out to someone,for free,after they have been misled by those that were supposed to be the "pros" that charge a "FEE" at what point do you throw your hands up and just think to yourself, well I guess you can show a horse to the water but if he is used to drinkin' koolaid,it ain't gonna drink.
If you do not consider the Bible to be the infallible word of God then in your estimation there is nothing to compare the teachings of all the fallible men that are "shaking down the sheep" to.
Quote"None of us have read or can read the original Bible in its original language. The translations that we have are translations of translations of translations so unless you know the original and can translate it correctly you don't know anything more than D of D or myself. "
Are you supporting a political agenda to remove the bible as the official word of God as in it should no longer be used to teach from?Do you want them to remove "In God We Trust" from our currency or "one nation under God" in the pledge of allegiance.Interesting,do you support gay marriages?Would you suppory gay women pastors?How far are you willing to go to discredit the infallible word of God ?
So if the BIBLE IS NOT EVEN UNDERSTANDABLE DUE TO THE FACT THAT IT CANNOT BE READ is it your opinion that we have been abandoned to blindly trust fallible men and their CULTS OF PERSONALITIES for our salvation? Sorry sister,It aint that I'm not a fan of your koolaid,I just wanna know what you put in it!
Hey Braveheart,If you point this out to someone,for free,after they have been misled by those that were supposed to be the "pros" that charge a "FEE" at what point do you throw your hands up and just think to yourself, well I guess you can show a horse to the water but if he is used to drinkin' koolaid,it ain't gonna drink.
If you do not consider the Bible to be the infallible word of God then in your estimation there is nothing to compare the teachings of all the fallible men that are "shaking down the sheep" to.
Quote"None of us have read or can read the original Bible in its original language. The translations that we have are translations of translations of translations so unless you know the original and can translate it correctly you don't know anything more than D of D or myself. "
Are you supporting a political agenda to remove the bible as the official word of God as in it should no longer be used to teach from?Do you want them to remove "In God We Trust" from our currency or "one nation under God" in the pledge of allegiance.Interesting,do you support gay marriages?Would you suppory gay women pastors?How far are you willing to go to discredit the infallible word of God ?
So if the BIBLE IS NOT EVEN UNDERSTANDABLE DUE TO THE FACT THAT IT CANNOT BE READ is it your opinion that we have been abandoned to blindly trust fallible men and their CULTS OF PERSONALITIES for our salvation? Sorry sister,It aint that I'm not a fan of your koolaid,I just wanna know what you put in it!
Re: Turning Point Church World Outreach Center-Tell Your Story
Posted by:
nooneofanyimportence
()
Date: July 25, 2011 11:45PM
I just want to chime in here, I dont see braveheart lifting himself up, or thinking himself an authority on the bible, I see no selfseeking in his posts. all I see is a guy sickened by the twisting of Gods word by self promoter, liars, and those trying to make a profit off of Gods truth. tuniningpoint has mixed so many lies with the truth, it takes time for the truth to be revealed. we need to stop argueing about who is right and who is wrong. like what we believe is real or the truth.Like I have always said many people believed the earth was flat, and lived their lives according to that truth they believed.. but it was not fact. I cant get over the statement that an elder or overseer should be the husband of one wife. it doesnt say or wife of one husband. the fact is at turningpoint we were taught so much about honoring leaders, that it caused a class seperation. like one group is better then the other, so its easy to carry that lie into other aspects of our lives, becsue in our hearts we know the truth, and Gods word says ALL the parts of the body are equal. in fact we should honor the unmentionable parts, the unseen parts , not to lift them above the rest but to let them know they are just as important. Its not about men better then women or visa versa , its about equal but different , with different roles. the foot doesnt perfom like the spleen, but both are important, I think our problem is we need to find out what part of the body we are and be the best at that , instead of trying to be the most seen part, and I mean the most seen by man, cause God sees all parts. we need to quit trying to dictate what we believe as the way it is, and start letting God didtate to us what HE would have us be.
Re: Turning Point Church World Outreach Center-Tell Your Story
Posted by:
Saddened
()
Date: July 27, 2011 04:28AM
I didn't put anything in my koolaid nor did I offer to give you any or even give you my recipe. All I said is that I do not agree with you and that I am entitled to my opinion. I also don't feel after leaving TPC that I want to accept anyone's interpretation of the Bible as the right one. That means yours or anyone elses. I think I will rely on my own discernment, as DOD said she wanted to do, and God's still small voice to tell me what he wants me to know. With all the different Christian denominations and their different beliefs and practices, I discern that all of them cannot have interpreted the word of God correctly and so when we get to Heaven we will find out that none of us was 100% correct in our beliefs. I will not get into a debate with anyone about gender and the Church. I have my opinions and beliefs on that subject and I am entitled to them. You have your opinions and beliefs on that subject and you are entitled to them. Just don't try to stuff them down my throat and I won't try to stuff mine down yours.
Saddened
Saddened
Quote
ostracizedone
Quote "Many have been hurt by the false teachings, coercion and manipulation of Mike and Tony. The church needs to get back to the preaching of the Gospel of Jesus Christ that is all I am pointing you to, the bible."
Hey Braveheart,If you point this out to someone,for free,after they have been misled by those that were supposed to be the "pros" that charge a "FEE" at what point do you throw your hands up and just think to yourself, well I guess you can show a horse to the water but if he is used to drinkin' koolaid,it ain't gonna drink.
If you do not consider the Bible to be the infallible word of God then in your estimation there is nothing to compare the teachings of all the fallible men that are "shaking down the sheep" to.
Quote"None of us have read or can read the original Bible in its original language. The translations that we have are translations of translations of translations so unless you know the original and can translate it correctly you don't know anything more than D of D or myself. "
Are you supporting a political agenda to remove the bible as the official word of God as in it should no longer be used to teach from?Do you want them to remove "In God We Trust" from our currency or "one nation under God" in the pledge of allegiance.Interesting,do you support gay marriages?Would you suppory gay women pastors?How far are you willing to go to discredit the infallible word of God ?
So if the BIBLE IS NOT EVEN UNDERSTANDABLE DUE TO THE FACT THAT IT CANNOT BE READ is it your opinion that we have been abandoned to blindly trust fallible men and their CULTS OF PERSONALITIES for our salvation? Sorry sister,It aint that I'm not a fan of your koolaid,I just wanna know what you put in it!
Re: Turning Point Church World Outreach Center-Tell Your Story
Posted by:
UndeniablyLivid
()
Date: July 27, 2011 05:54AM
Well I said I was going to sign off this dang board but could not do it for long. Saddened's comments pretty much sum up what went wrong at TPC. I think I will rely on my own discernment, as DOD said she wanted to do, and God's still small voice to tell me what he wants me to know.
That is exactly what got Mike into trouble "relying on his own 'discernment'." Honestly, there are scholarly theologians who practice higher theological criticism. Down through the ages many of the well-respected scholars all agree on certain theological issues. Personally, I trust the Holy Spirit, of course, but I also trust men who have devoted their lives to higher criticism and have a firm grasp on orthodox historical Christianity and are fluent reading the original texts. I don't know how you can take "the husband of one wife" and "it is not permitted for a women to exercise authority over a man" and prove to me that that was NOT in the original texts.
Saddened, get to a good church because, like it or not, you have the same attitude in your heart that the Villamors had! You seem to be too proud to seek out what the scriptures really are saying because your "opinions" are so strong on this issue. The scourge of TP is still not exorcised from our thinking.
That is exactly what got Mike into trouble "relying on his own 'discernment'." Honestly, there are scholarly theologians who practice higher theological criticism. Down through the ages many of the well-respected scholars all agree on certain theological issues. Personally, I trust the Holy Spirit, of course, but I also trust men who have devoted their lives to higher criticism and have a firm grasp on orthodox historical Christianity and are fluent reading the original texts. I don't know how you can take "the husband of one wife" and "it is not permitted for a women to exercise authority over a man" and prove to me that that was NOT in the original texts.
Saddened, get to a good church because, like it or not, you have the same attitude in your heart that the Villamors had! You seem to be too proud to seek out what the scriptures really are saying because your "opinions" are so strong on this issue. The scourge of TP is still not exorcised from our thinking.
Re: Turning Point Church World Outreach Center-Tell Your Story
Posted by:
WonderingNow
()
Date: July 27, 2011 06:27AM
I agree with your thoughts, Undeniably, but not your delivery-- a little harsh. John MacArthur had a very informative series entitled "God's High Calling for Women." It was the best treatise I've ever heard on a woman's role in the church and family. It made so much sense to me after he explained it biblically. I understood God's intent and design. It helped me to have it explained instead of coming up with my own beliefs based on my culture-tainted desires and opinions. I know that deep down, true believers in the gospel of Christ want Truth on all matters of faith and theology -- especially those of us tainted by false teachings. This series helped me get de-programmed from that stupid cult on this issue that they still wrongly practice to this day. Let's move beyond all those false teachings at TP.
Here's the link.
[www.gty.org]
Here's the link.
[www.gty.org]
Re: Turning Point Church World Outreach Center-Tell Your Story
Posted by:
Saddened
()
Date: July 27, 2011 08:49AM
I'll look into it.
Saddened
Saddened
Quote
WonderingNow
I agree with your thoughts, Undeniably, but not your delivery-- a little harsh. John MacArthur had a very informative series entitled "God's High Calling for Women." It was the best treatise I've ever heard on a woman's role in the church and family. It made so much sense to me after he explained it biblically. I understood God's intent and design. It helped me to have it explained instead of coming up with my own beliefs based on my culture-tainted desires and opinions. I know that deep down, true believers in the gospel of Christ want Truth on all matters of faith and theology -- especially those of us tainted by false teachings. This series helped me get de-programmed from that stupid cult on this issue that they still wrongly practice to this day. Let's move beyond all those false teachings at TP.
Here's the link.
[www.gty.org]
Re: Turning Point Church World Outreach Center-Tell Your Story
Posted by:
BraveHeart
()
Date: July 27, 2011 09:42PM
Once again relying upon your own discernment is very scary as we are like sheep so easily led astray.
Friends we have all experience much from Turning Point or Radiant Life, many of us can share our testimony as to how we were affected or lead astray by the false teachings. Sure, some people have said “I am trying to forget about it,” “it’s time to move on,” or worse, “I will have nothing to do with church or God, and then blaspheme the name of God.” I can understand a frustrated statement like that and some times sweeping it under the carpet seams to be the path of least resistance, but for someone to turn there back on God. Ouch that must hurt the heart of God. My prayer for all these false teachers, staff & church members who were lead astray, to recognize that they have sinned against God first and foremost. Because of there sin they will be judged by God. We should all shake and tremble by understanding God's wrath against sinners, hell, eternal punishment.
In Luke 19:1-10
We can constantly bring to the table and discuss peripheral issues, or topics that are important but not foundational in the faith in Christ. Reflecting back over the postings here I am reminded to consider what is Gods will is for his believers and his church? Are we doing that today? Is the church fulfilling the great commission?
Don't loose your fist love!
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/27/2011 09:46PM by BraveHeart.
The bible is our light and guide book.Quote
Psalm 119:105
Your word is a lamp for my feet,
a light on my path.
Friends we have all experience much from Turning Point or Radiant Life, many of us can share our testimony as to how we were affected or lead astray by the false teachings. Sure, some people have said “I am trying to forget about it,” “it’s time to move on,” or worse, “I will have nothing to do with church or God, and then blaspheme the name of God.” I can understand a frustrated statement like that and some times sweeping it under the carpet seams to be the path of least resistance, but for someone to turn there back on God. Ouch that must hurt the heart of God. My prayer for all these false teachers, staff & church members who were lead astray, to recognize that they have sinned against God first and foremost. Because of there sin they will be judged by God. We should all shake and tremble by understanding God's wrath against sinners, hell, eternal punishment.
In Luke 19:1-10
I pray that they would have the heart like Zacchaeus willing to reconcile all they have wronged. You see that is what repentance is, a remorseful and changed heart. We don’t see that kind of fruit from these leaders so they should be put outside the church. If the elder board does not have the authority to do that then the church bylaws are corrupt.Quote
Zacchaeus
Jesus entered Jericho and was passing through. A man was there by the name of Zacchaeus; he was a chief tax collector and was wealthy. He wanted to see who Jesus was, but because he was short he could not see over the crowd. So he ran ahead and climbed a sycamore-fig tree to see him, since Jesus was coming that way.
When Jesus reached the spot, he looked up and said to him, “Zacchaeus, come down immediately. I must stay at your house today.” So he came down at once and welcomed him gladly.
All the people saw this and began to mutter, “He has gone to be the guest of a sinner.”
But Zacchaeus stood up and said to the Lord, “Look, Lord! Here and now I give half of my possessions to the poor, and if I have cheated anybody out of anything, I will pay back four times the amount.”
Jesus said to him, “Today salvation has come to this house, because this man, too, is a son of Abraham. For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost.”
We can constantly bring to the table and discuss peripheral issues, or topics that are important but not foundational in the faith in Christ. Reflecting back over the postings here I am reminded to consider what is Gods will is for his believers and his church? Are we doing that today? Is the church fulfilling the great commission?
If we are not excited to Go out into the world and preach then have we become luke-warm? Or have we become like the church in Ephesus (Revelation 2) Jesus said; I hold this against you: You have forsaken the love you had at first. Consider how far you have fallen! Repent and do the things you did at first. If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place. Read Revelation chapters 2 & 3Quote
The Great Commission
Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.” Matthew 28:16-20
Don't loose your fist love!
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/27/2011 09:46PM by BraveHeart.
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