CGJ wrote: "The sad and horrifying part is that the next time you have any struggle or tempation you immediately think your prayer time didn't take and that you lacked faith. So you get more prayer...the prayer time becomes your source of salvation, not Jesus. Also, you live in fear that a leader is going to prophetically "get something" on you. One of their favorites is to use "rebellion" or "disbelief" if you question ANYTHING a leader says."

That was my experience with New Song also, in the last few months I attended. And there was definitely a lack of acceptance of 'outsiders.' Fellowship there wasn't based entirely on a common faith in Christ as Lord and Savior but on embracing (without prayerful examination) personal 'revelations' from the Holy Spirit about individuals. I no longer attend New Song or have any real contact with people who do.

Also would like to add that I have several friends in the Tacoma area who no longer attend NS.

I first attended NewSong, while it was meeting at the Congreational Church, by Group Health. It was called, "The Congo." When I found out that NS was a ministry of Clover Creek, I was very taken back. Back in the 1970's, Clover Creek, was a Baptist church, associated with the "Regular Baptist churches"--GARBC. Very fundamentalist, separtist, etc. Warren Riches, was associate pastor, under Duane Wells (whose daughter, married Mike Riches). The story has been told, out of one of Mike Riches books, how his wife was visited by two angels. As Mike Riches started preaching deliverance from strongholds and other demonic activity, I understand that a number of people left Clover Creek--I believe that I was told, about half of the congregation left. NS, started, with Brian Brennt, teaching a informal Bible study at Pacific Lutheran University. I believe that the core of the leadership, came from PLU. Aaron Barker, (who would head up the music program), was one who became part of a "closed" cligue of people. I understand from Mike Riches, that he decided that Brian was called to youth ministry, and basically allowed him to become the official leader of NS. When I caught up with NS at the "Congo", the church was packed out, to a point, where two services were required. The music was so loud, it was like being at a rock concert. With all the youth (mostly high school to college), jumping up and down, the sanctuary vibrated and shook. It was during that time, I became aware of Chris Hippe, who was at the time, a car salesman, but, part of the quasi-official staff. Brian Brennt said at one time, he wanted Chris to be full-time at the ministry. Besides Aaron Barker and Chris Hippe, Bruce Buskirk, an attorney, was also on the leadership team. Brian's wife, Christie, was able to attend, and lead a woman's fellowship conference, held at the Congo. There were times, that she could not attend--I believe because of chronic headaches. It would be later revealed, through the unoffical grapevine, that Brian Brennt's hands were pratically worthless. He did not shake hands, as it caused him too much pain. He never addressed it publicly, as far as I know. I went to one of the men's retreats, at Miracle Ranch. Men were put into various sub-groups, with a appointed leader. In these groups, accountability was taught, along with the confession of all sins, revealed in the small groups, or in the meetings at large. Chris Hippe, Evan Thomas, were the primary teachers and leaders. NS moved from the Congo, to First Baptist church on 9th & Market. It was at this time, I was invited to visit the Crossing Church, pastored by Jon Graciano (His brother, Rod, was one of my Mom's pastors--and Rod and Jon, did not see eye-to-eye on theology and ministry). I had gone through the class, Living Free, where I had been assigned a mentor. This mentor, strongly encouraged me to go to the Crossing Church, as I was experiencing financial difficulties. Jon Graciano and his wife, Kathy, prayed for me. Out of that prayer, came a "direction from God" to move in with my mentor, who had his own house. The house was unfinished upstairs where the bedrooms were. All the windows were out. There was no heat upstairs. I froze at night, even with tons of blankets on top of me. For this "camping" experience, I had to pay over $300 a month. I was rather sick at the time, and my Doctor did not want me living there, wiith all that cold freezing air. I approached Jon Graciano, and expressed my concerns. He told me that my concerns were not relevant; as "God" had made it clear that this is where I was supposed to be. I stayed there for about three months, before moving out on my own. My moving out was seen as rebellion to church authority. My Mentor, was part of the quasi-leadership circle; having met Brian Barker and Brian Brennt, while NS was at PLU. I would later be asked to join the Crossing, and become a "member" and submit to the authority of Jon Graciano, and a subordinate of his, Scott Baker, who supervised, Crossing Ministries (clothes, haircuts, food) were supplied to people coming off the streets. It was made clear that before receiving services, that the "client" receive prayer from one of the authorized individuals (who had gone through Living Free, as well as the prayer training classes). If an individual refused prayer, they could be asked to leave without receiving any clothes, food, etc. It was during my time at the Crossing, that I was asked to consider going to the Dream Center in Los Angeles, as a volunteer team. I was to raise my own funds to go. I raised the funds, and thought that all was well, until Jon Graciano and his assistant, Garret Walsh, confronted me after church, and accused me of all kinds of sin, including rebellion. I was told I could not go to the Dream Center. Jon's wife Kathy, who also joined her husband and Garret, told me that the real reason why I was not going, was that I had not made any attempt to raise money to go. I was taken back, because I knew two people who contributed funds for me to go. I had proof, and when I provied blank copies of the checks written out to Crossing, in my name, Jon and Garret told me that I could not go, because "God" said I was in sin and rebellion. I was totally taken back. Even though I had proof that I had raised money to go, Kathy Graciano, made it clear that the church never received those funds. Even though the copies of the check, showed that the monies from the checks, had been deposited in the Crossing Church bank account, Kathy still denied that they had received them. I would later become disillusioned with the Crossing and leave. I was still attending NS, and was asked to move into a house, with other NS men. I was about to become homeless, so I agreed to move in. I was confronted with all kinds of rules. I shared a room, with one of the house leaders. The two house leaders, constantly struggled against sexual thoughts/lust. No matter how much they prayed, they could not appear to become free and gain victory. The house leader that I shared a bedroom with, told me that his brother is homosexual, and that sexual sin runs in the family. He and the other house leader prayed, every day; for themselves and the house. No matter how much they prayed and denounced spiritual authorities of darkness, they could not become free from their lusts. It was as though a spirit of perversion, hung over the house. All the men, including myself, could feel a sense of heaviness. So, the leaders started pointing fingers at the others of us in the house. The house was turned upside for any evidences of porn; "evil" music, video's, etc. It was later determined that one of the residents of the house, had music cd's in the basement, which were the cause of much of the spiritual oppression. The house member was asked to pack up his things and leave the house--only because he asked why he had to get rid of the music. After he was gone, the house went back to usual business, but the lust and perverse "spirits" were still in the house. The two male house leaders, could not appear to get victory for themselves. The house eventually disbanded. I left NS, around late 2007/early 2008. Before I left, one of the older men at NS, wrote a public letter, accusing NS of financial misconduct. About the same time, NS, the Crossing and Destiny, went their separate ways. Crossing Church, fell under the umbrellla of Destiny (formely Clover Creek). I heard that Crossing and Destiny, accused NS of several different financial issues, and so there was a split. Trying to get information from any of the quasi-leadership, as to what really happened, was almost impossible. I talked to Gabriel VW, who has posted several comments on this blog. I was confronted and told to "trust" the leadership. A few months ago, I dropped in on Crossing Church, as a visitor. Jon Graciano's face "froze" when he saw me. I felt so uncomfortable that I left immediately after the service. I have not had any contact with NS, or Destiny, since I left. My visit with the Crossing Church, confirmed for me, just the bitter taste that I have in my mouth. Some of the former NS people, attend, Life Center Church, where one of the original Clover Creek staff, was fired, and is now a ministry leader at Life Center. I hope this does not appear as sour grapes. I have tried to be as objective as possible; realizing that I am speaking from my own perspectives, opinions, etc.

I am looking for any one who was in Clover Creek the day half of the congregation walked out. I need to hear first hand what actually happened. I am being told that a woman (labeled by Mike and Cindy Riches as demonic) walked around the service growling then she levitated and floated down the middle of the church toward the stage fixating on Mike Riches. During that same service a man got on the stage and picked up one of the ushers (260 pounds) up over his head and threw him across the room. This explanation came right from the Riches mouths to a person I love dearly. This person is being soaked to the bone financially by the Riches. They have put their "demonic fear based" beliefs right in his/her wallet! Cindy has actually told this person that she sits across the table from God in the flesh and holds his hands almost daily. She only "chooses" special people she can trust with this information. The Riches also said they had to research "demonic possession" extensively since that day so they now know what to do if it happens again .. I say bull. If you were there that day I would like to hear the correct story.

Let me tell you what I know. Revelasio "ministry" had an office downtown Tacoma, in the UW district. On Thursday mornings, at 6am, a bunch of NS guys, met for a time of teaching by Mike Riches. Mike said that every since Cindy had the vision of the two angels, they both have been under severe demonic attack. He also said that after that angel incident, that both he and Cindy, started speaking out about demonic warfare. As a result, he said that many people felt as though a seance was occuring, and, about 1/2 of the congregation left, because they said, "demonic activity" only happened in the book of Acts. They were uncomfortable with Mike and Cindy's revelations. Mike did not directly talk about any demonic activity during a service. What I can tell is, I went to school with several of Mike's siblings. There is about a six or seven year age difference between Mike and the next sibling. Anyway, the next sibling, and I have had some talks about CC. He told me that he could not attend CC, due to what he called "bizarre" teachings and activities, going on. He said he told his brother, that CC was on the fringes of cult-like activity. The first time I had a chance to meet Mike Riches, I told him that I went to school with his siblings. Mike said, "oh?" and turned away. There are two additional siblings: a boy and a girl. Neither one lives in the area, but when they come to visit their Mom and Dad (who both attended CC), they would not go to CC. I asked Warren Riches one day about that. Warren, would not answer. Margaret Riches, smiled at me, sweetly and said, "They just have not received the same vision. They will, some day."

I wish I could tell you more, or confirm what you heard. I have no doubt that what you have been told, is absolutely correct. By the way, Mike Riches and Brian Brennt, did have a falling out. After Mike supposedly was going to become an international evangelist, Brian was going to do the same. They both know all the same people, and, well, some bad-mouthing, turned the two into rivals. BB was supposed to have stepped aside from NS. Chris Hippe, and another older man (forget his name right at the moment), were talking over the reins, with BB, preaching if he was in town. Adam Narcisso, was also preaching--although, he was primarily focused in on the youth. Jerry Frye, I think is the name of the older man, and he, I have been told, is known around the world. Since I left, I can only tell you what I have heard.

I believe Adam Narcisso heads Catalyst Program. "Youth" really means....young adults that somehow make their way to Tacoma to live in housing and go through this program. It costs thousands of $ which a student must come up with themselves and are not able to tie the money to the church in any way at all. If any of you read my earlier posts, my daughter took off to go through this program in the summer of 09. ...etc...It's now 2010..and I can say this..I am glad she is back home in Calif. My biggest fear is that she'll return there. They will suck her back in...and the thought of that makes me want to barf. I'm too bitter to write any more right now, plus too cold. Thanks for listenting..:)

This is Newmama10 I just lost that login info so here I am under a different name, I suppose in this day and age when you have so many log in's it is hard to remember, especially if you don't get on here much but anyway hope you are all well....

To answer some questions, because I do still have contact with some people who go to City Central I will start by saying that yes Adam Narciso does in fact run Catalyst. It is a sketchy situation, it is not City Central Mission Base, and they are not calling themselves a church? I wonder if that is due to some financial issues they would like to hide maybe?

Myspacethirdbase, I pray your daughter DOES NOT go back there! I am glad to hear she didn't stay! That is interesting about the siblings to Mike Riches because their mother, Margarete (bless her soul) passed away and I went to the memorial. Mike led the memorial, didn't say much to memorialize his mother. Then his siblings at a seperate time and without him got up and spent some time talking about their mom. After the memorial at the fellowship time they didn't talk to each other that I saw, it was clear that they are not close. I find it interesting that they are also able to see what is going on.

The story about what happened that day years ago at Clover Creek, that is NOT the story I heard from the mouth of Mike and Brian. It is partially the same story but some big details were different. I wish I could tell you exactly what happened though, as it sounds like at least two stories are going around.

mgmintac- I am sorry to hear your story although I can totally relate! I am glad that you got out of their too. They claim to preach about the bible and loving people as Jesus would but let me tell you what, they don't! Brian Brennt and Chris Hippe are two of the most hypocritical people I know!!

When I was at that memorial I faced more rejection again, I was glad I went for some closure for myself but I was amazed at how the people I used to be close friends with and who I had given 10 years of my life were so willing to reject me just because my life is different today than they agree with. Amazing to me how QUICKLY they are to throw the first stone.

Whoa.

mgmintac...sadly, no surprise from me. I don't know what else to say other than I'm not surprised. I knew Jon and Kathy Graciano were ruthless, but sheesh!

JHH...we started attending right after the infamous Super Bowl Sunday "manifestations". One woman did exhibit odd, growling behavior...but LEVITATING?!? No. And the man at the evening service threw chairs, not people. That Mike and Cindy Riches are bilking your friend for money make me SOOOO UPSET!!!

myspace...I've been wondering how you and your daughter are doing. I really hope your daughter reads this thread and sees the phonies for what they are.

mgm, again...Jon Graciano is no longer with the Crossing. There was a huge falling out between him and Destiny, so he's started up his own church in Tacoma somewhere. Something to do with a river. Brian Brennt is in Hawaii...I came across a blog of his (1 entry) and he basically takes credit for starting something called Call2All Generations. He claims he and Christy had a vision for this offshoot of Call2All in early 2009. I looked it up. Call2All Generations was started in 2007. Typical Brian Brennt. Warren is darling and loyal. Margaret was the sweetest thing! She went home to Jesus New Year's Day. I was at the funeral and it was lovely. Oddly, Mike didn't say anything to memorialize his mom at all!! Two friends gave eulogies and the rest of the siblings spoke...Mike merely acted as emcee. The officiant, Jerry Larson, was wonderful. The other odd thing was that is was held at Real Life (the old Clover Creek building). I guess that, despite the fact that Mike's parents attended Destiny, the fallout between Mike Riches, Kurt Snyder, Jon Graciano, and all the New Song folk was so huge that they wouldn't/couldn't hold it at Central Lutheran (where Destiny meets).

I really hope people are googling their names and coming across this thread.

cgj

This is unbelievable. It seems as though the Riches and that bunch stay just ahead of the crowd. Move on change your name. Unfortuantely my elderly parents went to CloverCreek and were taken in or I should say taken by the Riches. We use to talk about bible scripture and were always very open with our beliefs; then we noticed that my parents became very secretive about what was going on in the church. They actually hid Riches books and news flyers when we visited. We would talk to them but it didn't seem to matter what we said we could not convince them that there was something wrong going on there. They would ask us not to come over when the riches would visit them. We found out that one day they were coming over to remove all the their "demonic possessions" and were going to rid their house of the demons. My parents are quite wealthy and had collected over a lifetime some very expensive paintings, sculptures etc. Thank goodness we were able to put a stop to that. Unfortunately we were not quick enough to see all the money that my parents had given them. My parents obviously told the Riches that we were suspicious because Mike almost convinced them that the bible says that father will turn against his son, etc. totally out of context. When my parents realized they were loosing their family, things changed a little. He still has a hold on them, but we try to keep an eye on them. I'll finish with this: A group is defined as cultic by the dependant/controlling relationship that forms between the leader of the group and his followers. the leader acquires an inappropriate level of control over the individuals by fostering personal dependence upon him as the source and definer of truth. The leader has a privileged access with God that the rest have yet to attain. Discretion and independent thought is typically the first thing a cult seeks to remove from a convert, and it is one of the first things that have to be restored in an individual seeking to get out. FGC

Newmama10...would have been nice to meet you as I was at the memorial, too. We didn't go to the reception, though. Sounds like the "Superbowl Sunday manifestations" has taken on a life of its own. City Central sounds absolutely aimless.

fgc...sorry to hear your parents are still influenced by Mike and Cindy Riches. They went after/are after your parents beacuse of their wealth, but you probably know that.

cgj