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I have been reading these conversations and just had to jump in a bit. I have very close friends who attended Clover Creek Bible Fellowhsip and were intimately involved in leadership positions. They were there at the church through 17 plus years and including the birthings of the freedom and deliverance teachings now so strongly presented at City Destiny and New Song. We are all instructed in the Bible to discern the spirit and evaluate teaching using the Bible as the standard. We are also taught that we will see truthful teaching bear fruit in lives. I saw enormous fruit in many lives, joy in the process of growth and being transformed to be more Christ like. My friends' marriage was saved. Some other long time close friends, deeply rooted and grounded in the Word and both with PhD degrees attend New Song. Their lives have been transformed and the fruit of the Holy Spirit is in abundant evidence.
Might we not want to let God be God?
Just a thought...

I just had to jump in a bit. We are commanded to evaluate church teachings using the Bible as our standard. We are instructed to exercise discernment of the source of teaching, of the spirits. We are taught that true teaching and application will produce godly fruit and to watch for that as evidence of a true relationship with the Lord.
I grew up in Conservative Baptist churches, served in them...little was taught about prophecy, deliverance, spiritual warfare, freedom...as I was exposed to these teachings it did not conflict but filled out what I already knew. It is human nature to be wary of and even attack what is new, what we don't know much about or have not experienced.
Dear, close friends of mine attended Clover Creek Bible Fellowship over 17 years (until it moved so far from them to Tacoma), and were very active and involved. They went through the birthings of these teachings that are so strongly emphasized (could it be because there is much God given spiritual power in them?)...and it is documented and on record that it came following a season of true and deep repentance and humbling on the part of Mike Riches and the elders. Hours of daily prayer together. Of accountability. Just because one or some we have heard of or know does not have joy, has taken things to an extreme does not mean the whole does so. That is always true of human nature. I have seen much fruit as a result of the New Song ministry, including saved marriages. I also have a long time couple friend who are deeply grounded, rooted and mature believers with PhD degrees. They are very enthusiastic about New Song, and application of the principles has brought some remarkable transformations in their lives and that of their kids. NO BODY IS PERFECT OR WALKS OR UNDERSTANDS A TEACHING PERFECTLY. Where the whole is good, and there is an area of question...pray, watch, and GO TO THE LEADERS NOT A FORUM (or did I read that process in just a book, not the Bible?).

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hiskid
We are commanded to evaluate church teachings using the Bible as our standard.

Exactly. That's why we left Clover/New Song.

I have some family members at New Song. They've been there for a few years now and I've lost interest in trying to learn more about the church. (And that's part of the problem - it's all about the "church" and not about "God"). They've been trying to deal with strongholds and demons and anger and criticism in their own lives. It's been years and they're still not free! The problems they once had are now larger and more relentless than they were before they have ever heard about strongholds! It just doesn't go away. I've heard them speak of freedom and breakthroughs but I've read notes and e-mails that speak of bondage, anger, sadness and I see the sadness in their eyes. They have such a pride of their church and it's caused this massive facade that says "we're okay" when really, they are worse off than before. Pride in the church is another thing that bothers me. I get the feeling that they think New Song is the ONLY church EVER to do exactly what the Bible says and that everything is perfect. This can't be true. New Song as a body has many committed members. I admire the way they spend so much time with each other. What if all Christians were as committed as "New Songers". At New Song, I feel that the Bible has been left out. It's led by people and people are sinful. Many of their main teachings and the reason that people spend so much time there are all based on the leaders' ideas and teachings, not Biblical teachings. I have been searching for scriptures to back up their teachings about different types of sin, about babies with strongholds, about random spiritual gifts that no one has ever heard of... etc.... I can't seem to figure it out. This might be evil but all I can hope for is a scandal - for someone to realize they might be a little off or to screw up and split the church. Everyone's so deep into New Song that I feel that God is going to have to do something huge to fix this mess out.

Tacoma, let's pray for New Song...
that our churches and members would be as committed as they are...
The New Song would realize the freedom and joy that Jesus gives each person....
That New Song would let their pride fall down...
Amen.

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hiskid
Just because one or some we have heard of or know does not have joy, has taken things to an extreme does not mean the whole does so. That is always true of human nature. I have seen much fruit as a result of the New Song ministry, including saved marriages.

Jesus saves marriages, not New Song. Getting involved in any church can, for the most part, save anyone's marriage. My relatives' marriage is better off since they've attended New Song but I would account that to [b:2f240dcde5]1) Jesus [/b:2f240dcde5]and [b:2f240dcde5]2) Accountability[/b:2f240dcde5]. Two things you can find at just about any Christian church. New Song is not our Savior and not the only church do anything good.

Just out of curiosity, what does having a ph.d have to do with any of this?

Crazylady98405...you're not crazy. What you're seeing in your family members (elitism, constant self-condemnation, slavish loyalty to New Song) is exactly how my husband and I thought/acted during our time at Clover Creek (now Destiny City Chuch). It's sad to see that nothing has changed since we left a couple of years ago. Thankfully God showed my husband and I our fear, pride, striving (to please the leaders so they wouldn't "get" anything on us), dependence on false propecies and false prophets, and our very real sadness (you're so right about the sadness and the anger that comes from despair...no matter what we did there was always another stronghold to work through, another "layer of the onion"...goodness, I hate that phrase!!). He taught and is teaching us the power of the cross...He took me to several scriptures, but the ones that stand out the most are Micah 7:19 (God casts our sins into the depths of the sea), Ez. 18 (I'm NOT guilty of my ancestors' sins), and Jeremiah 31 (part of which is quoted in Heb. 8 ). Colossians 1:19-23 was very helpful, too (there were many others, trust me!).

I'm praying for them. I've been praying for them. I figure if anyone is searching for truth they're going to find it no matter where they are because that's God's promise. But it will be HIS truth, not some strange doctrinal statement based on someone's experience.

Anonfornow (and especially hiskid)...higher education has NOTHING to do with discernment.

cgj

I have met with people that attend New Song and talked with them directly regarding their beliefs. Each and everyone that I have spoken with told me that they believe Christians are not set free unless they go through deliverance of generational sins, curses and demons. One person, who left the church is now teaching the same similar teaching in a large Assembly of God Church. I know because I attended his living free classes and have spoken with him and have his notebook.

I have spoken with members in the Crossing, who are a branch off of New Song and Clovercreek Bible Fellowship which Clovercreek is now Destiny Church. I have their manual on Living Free. It is not freedom.

They all believe in the same thing, curses, generational sins and demons. They boast of the changed lives and some seem to have broken drug addiction. However, from talking to them, they attend church all the time. They still go through classes on Living free and still need prayer for deliverance.

All I see is bad teachings, bondage to other people and no freedom. The whole thing reminds me of works again. When these people are confronted I have been asked what drives me to want them to change their thinking, is it God or Satan. I know what drives me and it is not Satan.
Adding to God's word is not something I would consider and they do it all the time.
Crossing is interesting also. A ministry to the homeless. They get food once and clothing once and then they must attend the church or Crossings church. From what I have seen of homeless, it is not demons, but drugs and bad choices or mental illness. So what seems as a good ministry is just another bondage.

Can I prove this, yes. I spoke with a leader of the Crossing and I have a copy of the Living free manual.
All of these churches have large problems, bad doctrines, leaders that don't know the Word of God and most that ahve not even attended seminary.
It is not freedom. Whoever the Son sets free is free indeed.

Whoever, Clovercreek, Destiny, New Song and Crossing sets free is being set free again, and again, and again. They will never be set free because
they are putting members and the homeless into bondage.

Some of the people into these church I have no doubt are Christians but their foundation is not Christ. I challenge anyone in these churches to stand back and compare the teachings with God's word and think about it. You might lose friends, but you might gain freedom.
Glenda

Brios58...at the Crossing people are required to go to church in exchange for clothes/food? That's horrible!! I've been out of their system for a bit now and I never knew that. It just makes me sick. I never see Jesus bribing people into the kingdom...makes me wonder why Crossing thinks it's a legit way to minister.

I'm not surprised they intimated you were being used of Satan against them...they think that anything that they don't care for is of "the enemy". I've heard the same thing said about anyone who leaves the church. Funny, last time I read Colossians it said that believers were broght into the kingdom of light/the kingdom of Christ.

All three churches preach a conditional gospel, and it breaks my heart. One leader flatly stated that the cross of Christ is not enough. The only problem with that thinking is, well, the Bible.

They talk a lot about getting back to how God originally created you. My "original design" is that I'm a sinner destined for an eternity without God, but now I'm a new creature in Jesus because of the cross and the cross only. I don't obey Christ to be accepted...I'm already accepted because of the cross, so out of gratefulness and love for Jesus I strive to obey albeit imperfectly. They say the cross is not end but that one must go through the hoops to attain "freedom". That's bogus. It's not sanctification. It's works.

cgj

The Crossing gives one time food and clothing and then the next time he or she must attend church at the Crossing.

As I said I talked to several people in all these churches. I talked to Mike Riches, Paul Gardner, several people in New Song.

I saw two pastors that were convinced of the teachings by Mike Riches and being in one of the churches, I saw great harm in what was my church to fellow members.

My friend attended a church and her pastor spent days and hours with Mike Riches and now was teaching the same teachings in his church. His church members were leaving. My friend talked to him and I did with no results, but misleading and then cover ups.

People in these churches all claim to have the gift of prophecy. They don't though. One prophet or so called told a man that he needed to be reconciled with his mother. His mother had already passed on.

I saw the pastor in what was my church fire 7 pastors. He would not be questioned about these doctrines and then lied about the pastors.

My husband and I were asked to leave and given his blessing when we talked to the pastor.

Attended a seminar Mike Riches gave and he quoted his belief of generational sins.
He would not answer my questions.

Sadly these churches and especially Clovercreek Bible Fellowship, now Destiny have convinced many pastors that these teachings are correct.

All I have seen is people that don't seem to care about what the Bible or God's Word says but their testimonies and their feelings.

The teachings of deliverance, generational sins, soul ties, demonic assignments, and even their way of spiritual warfare is very harmful. When approached with the truth they act as the cults do and attack
the person trying to help them out of the teachings.

I would warn anyone that hires or takes prior members of these churches into ministry, that the new
church should see for sure that the people are out of these teachings. They don't always stop believing
in the teachings. One church went to last year has a prior member teaching the same thing only somewhat luked down.

Test everything with the measure, God's word. Don't rely on experience. Rely on God and His word.
Don't trust feelings or testimonies.
Brios