Zeebrook: Dr Wall stated emphatically that R.B. Thieme Jr "is a Christian brother well within the circle of orthodox.
Truthtesty: He did not "emphatically" state that. That is your emphasis.
zeebrook: Let's examine that. Dr Wall says of Thieme in this thesis [www.texaswalls.org
] that he:
still within the limits of historic Christian orthodoxy (p11)
While still in high school Thieme accepted Christ as his savior. (p13)
he is a Christian brother well within the circle of orthodox Christianity, who is providing doctrinal teaching that many today are hungry for. (p36)
still within the limits of historic Christian orthodoxy (p151)
zeebrook: I would say that since Dr Wall considers Thieme, in his well reasoned analysis, within the limits of Christian orthodoxy, accepted Christ as saviour, is a Christian brother, within the circle of orthodox Christianity and within the limits of historic Christian orthodoxy emphatically
considers Thieme to be a believer.
Truthtesty: Again the "emphatic" is your emphasis, not Dr. Wall's. And clearly shows your premature conclusion. Dr. Wall is well reasoned to a point.
Sure lol let's examine the WHOLE TRUTH, thiemite.
First, you won't apologize and your just going to bypass all my questions? And (try lol) to focus only that Dr Wall said in his dissertation that "he is a Christian brother well
within the circle of orthodox Christianity"
Just that? Lol are you sure you just want to stick with that? On this forum? Oh well...
Quit trying to protect Thieme, go ahead and put the WHOLE quote zeebrook, not just what you fictiously WANT people to see to protect your cult leader.
The WHOLE QUOTE says:
Dr. Wall quote: "His
doctrine of the blood has some serious errors
, but he is a Christian brother well
within the circle of orthodox Christianity, who is providing doctrinal teaching that
many today are hungry for.
Truthtesty: Here is where I disagree with Dr. Wall, because something is not right. Dr. Wall stated:
"The Standard for Orthodoxy
The primary dictionary definition of orthodox is "sound or correct in
opinion or doctrine, esp. theological or religious doctrine." One's opinion as to
what is orthodox, therefore, is determined by the standard for "sound or correct"
doctrine by which one measures doctrine. Two measuring rods will be employed
in this dissertation.
Second, the doctrinal statement of Dallas Theological Seminary, which is a concise statement of Lewis Sperry Chafer's theology, will be used as a broader basis for determining orthodoxy."
Truthtesty: But if you read the doctrinal statement of Dallas Theological Seminary and Systematic Theology by Lewis Sperry Chafer you will see the literal blood theology of Chafer
. Dr. Chafer believed in the literal Shed Blood of Christ. And? That Chafer was aware before he died and commented on the new perversions of the"Blood of Christ" Dr. Lewis Sperry Chafer Systematic Theology Blood [Vol. 7, Page 52-55] ( 3 sections - Sacrificial blood, Cleansing blood, and Covenant blood) Chafer (summarizing) says in 1 part that arrogant men have no authority elevate themselves to judge the very blood priniciple which God already judged, executed, and revealed to men to deal with sin.
(Also Thieme lied about his "blood evidence" in Bauer, Ardnt, and Gingrich. Which I have shown before)
From DTS doctrinal statement: We believe that Satan is the originator of sin, and that, under the permission of God, he, through subtlety, led our first parents into transgression, thereby accomplishing their moral fall and subjecting them and their posterity to his own power; that he is the enemy of God and the people of God, opposing and exalting himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped; and that he who in the beginning said, “I will be like the most High,” in his warfare appears as an angel of light, even counterfeiting the works of God by fostering religious movements and systems of doctrine, which systems in every case are characterized by a denial of the efficacy of the blood of Christ
and of salvation by grace alone (Gen. 3:1–19; Rom. 5:12–14; 2 Cor. 4:3–4; 11:13–15; Eph. 6:10–12; 2 Thess. 2:4; 1 Tim. 4:1–3).
Dr. Chafer believed in the literal blood of Christ being efficacious
. So? 1 part of Dr. Wall's own standard of orthodoxy is inconsistent here. Perhaps he didn't finish writing it or perhaps as I said before Dr. Wall used very soft gloves to critique Thieme (on the Blood of Christ.) Was this because a member of Dr. Wall's family served with Thieme in the military? Was this because Dr. Wall was under pressure from DTS faculty to "take it easy on DTS alumni Thieme"? Would DTS be embarassed of a graduated heretic?
Also to me it is inconsistent to include Thieme in what must be a very broad HUGE circle of orthodoxy, because you have to include in orthodoxy: "Without these clarifications the teaching of confession and forgiveness can even result in a rationalization of the continuing existence of sin and the
repression of guilt, and this can produce emotional problems and even
schizophrenia. The author has personally counseled people with such problems
stemming from their abuse of Thieme's teaching on confession and fellowship."
"Basic view. First, he has an unbalanced view of spiritual authority.
Pastoral or elder leadership authority extends to the overseeing of the operation of
church ministries, the maintenance of sound teaching in the local church and the
protection of the believers' souls from false doctrine (I Pet. 5:2; Acts 20:28, 29;
Heb. 13:17). It clearly involves leadership by example, not by lording over or "bullying" the flock (I Pet. 5:3; Heb. 13:7). Thieme has added to these clear
biblical directions. He claims that he must be the final source of doctrine for all
in his flock, and that the individual believer cannot study Scripture for himself.
Not only does the Scripture not teach such a view of doctrinal learning, but it
teaches the opposite. Spiritual growth, Paul says in Ephesians 4, involves two
major ingredients that are contrary to the Thiemite doctrine: first, the gift of pastor-teacher is an equipping gift (verse 12, katartismon) designed to prepare all
believers (the saints) for doing the job of ministering and edifying; second,
maturing takes place as all the members of the body minister the truth of God to
one another in love (verses 15, 16), not just one select, gifted person.
Second, he confuses faith in biblical truth with a faith in a particular
teacher (i.e. one's right pastor). At no time does Scripture exhort the believer to
single out one particular teacher as his final doctrinal authority. On the contrary,
there is precedence for diversity of teachers. At Antioch the thriving, missionary
church was ministered to by five prophets and teachers (Acts 13: 1). Ephesus had
both the personal and epistolary ministries of both Paul and John, and also had the
ministry of Apollos and of the elders of Ephesus (Acts 18:24-28; 20:17-35). In 3
John, the apostle condemns Diotrophes for attempting to lord it over the flock,
forcing division between his followers and other teachers in the body of Christ.
Thieme's right pastor doctrine could very well be called the "Diotrophes
"The argument that the life of the teacher is irrelevant is one also used by some cult leaders to excuse their life styles."..." For example, the leaders of the Children of God teach that their people are to ignore their blatant
immorality and submit to their authoritative teaching because they are God's appointed
Truthtesty: That's orthodox? I do not see how the previous (bolded) statements could be considered with in a circle of orthodoxy. Dr. Wall clearly points to Thieme's cult abusive authority like the cult the Children of G-d and false cult authority of Diotrophes(and more...). That is clearly unorthodox.
Earlier I stated "I am not saying Dr. Wall got anything wrong except for the 1 Peter 5:3(4:3) typo." Pardon me at that time I didn't mention the inconsistent evidence of Thieme's unorthodoxy compared to the DTS doctrinal statement.
Also, I clearly agree with Thieme's critics Rev. Walters and Dr. Waite. (which I don't think Dr. Wall mentioned) Waite and Walters spoke of the Old testament "Types" and "AntiTypes" and how Thieme was violating the the types because you can't have a New Testament type as an antitype for a type also in the New Testament (see book authored by Waite and Walters).
Dr. Wall's summary of orthodoxy appears to be inconsistent with Dr. Wall's very accurate evidence. I suppose Dr. Wall (who I do have great regard for) could best clear this up.
So zeebrook, that is something new you can show thiemites how Thieme was incorrect, without using a sledgehammer lol!
I never met Sodini. Also I had never heard of Tetelstai church before I joined this forum. So on either account I know nothing about them.
Truthtesty: Your dodging. But? you read Sisters posts. That was your lying false accusation about me. "Less than honest..." Remember that? Which you had no clue and opened your mouth anyhow? Which you have not apologized for. True to thiemite form: never apologize and only mention positive things about Thieme.
Sister did post about deacon Rickard and it is clear that Tetelestai and Knapp and Rickard and 13 year attendee Sodini were of the Thieme variety of "once saved always saved" and if that is your criteria for Thieme then the same is for Sodini.
So you are just going to deceitfully avoid the obvious? Lol cmon! You know Sodini was of the once saved always saved variety "Christian brother" type. Rickard said he was. You are just being difficult and evasive to try to protect Thieme. You never met Sodini? Since you are trying to mislead the obvious Sodini/Thieme/ChristianIntegrity association I'll sum it like this then. YOU never crawled inside either Thieme's or Sodini's head and saw what they thought. SO YOU DON'T KNOW. Dodge that.
By the way we are not intimidated. We often get thiemites who try to intimidate here with so-called "language skills"(like Thieme intimidated) and they all turned out so far to be a joke.
zeebrook: I did meet R.B. Thieme Jr, spoken to him on a few occasions, and have attended Berachah Church during Thieme's ministry. In my dealings with Thieme he was courteous, patient, answered my questions, directed me to further research and I would concur with Dr Wall he was a Christian brother.
Truthtesty: Like I said I am not convinced that Thieme was a "Christian brother". I could have met Thieme if I had wanted to, so I never did. To me Thieme was a fake sick shallow intimidating weak perverted bully who falsified the Word of G-d for a neocon political agenda and cowardly hid behind the Houston police. We received a report that a greek scholar questioned Thieme after class on Thieme's error in greek. And Thieme just snickered and had his goons escort the greek student from BeREICHah.
"Did not Thieme teach that you could have faith in Jesus once and then turn around quit believing and worship satan the rest of your life murder and still go to heaven? Yes he did."
zeebrook: To that person please provide the evidence for your quotation.
Truthtesty: Are you really going to try to deny that under once saved always saved that Thieme said you could quit believing and still be saved? Are you really going to try be so fake and pretentious solely to protect Thieme to pretend that Thieme did not say you could quit believing and still be saved? Every thiemite knows that and they know Thieme said it. Dodge that.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/05/2009 11:49AM by Truthtesty.