Greetings,

You said:

Quote
zeebrook
Truthtesty you need to prove your assertions:
Truthtesy quote "Instead of truthful scholarly work much of Thieme's writings simply were falsifications for political gain, presented in an overly complex approach as to make it extremly difficult for the average christian to determine the lies presented.:
Can you prove to me that Thieme's writings were "falsifications foir poilitical gain"? Seems outlandish to me. If it were true and you can prove it then it would be easy to convince Thiemietes.

I agree with your comment on the overly complex approach" but I disagree it was used o cover what you call "lies", rather I think it was done to give and air of academia and thus impress the impressionable.

Truthtesty quote "Thieme was a disaster for most people's lives. Many people died unnecessarily because of Thieme either by becoming depressed and committingsuicide by his false teachings or hurt by being trained to become incompetent and dysfunctional in their humanity"
Can you prove "many people died"?

Please stick to verifiable facts. If you can prove these then it would provide tremendous ammunition in discussiuons with Thiemetes but I doubt any of it is provable. Before you accuse me of being a closet Thiemiete again let me stop you. I just want factual, logical arguments from the scriptures to refute Thieme's errors where they occur.

I appreciate your efforts to offer Thieme followers solid proof of his errors. You are correct that stories of problems others have had due to involvement with Thieme's teachings do not impress current faithful Thiemeites. "They" must be in "reversionism" or "don't really understand" what was taught, or Thieme's personality "rubbed them the wrong way" or some other of the countless denials and excuses they give to any objector.

Setting what THIEME SAID next to THE BIBLE ITSELF with clear reasons why Thieme is wrong is an approach that has a good chance of succeeding. HOWEVER, the truly convinced can always come back and say WELL HE GOT IT FROM THE HEBREW AND THE GREEK....and in their mind this nullifies all possibility of error on Thieme's part. Also don't forget the THREAT OF DIVINE PUNISHMENT OR EVEN DEATH for criticizing Thieme. Criticizing Thieme is criticizing GOD. Leaving Thieme is LEAVING GOD. It is also BETRAYING YOUR COUNTRY for one never knows if he is the critical member of THE PIVOT who will tip the scales against the survival of this country if he leaves Thieme's teaching. Thieme's teaching IS BIBLE DOCTRINE. These are all POWERFUL FEARS WHICH THIEME PLANTED IN OUR MINDS which controlled us and kept us "on board."


Sister

To zeebrook:

zeebrook: Rather a long bow to draw that the Thieme cult carries "the violent psychotic potential of the Manson cult".
Truthtesty: I have no idea what a "long bow" is but if you mean it is illogical to draw a comparison between the potential violence of the two cults, then I completely disagree. I from own experience have seen thiemites lose control violently when irritated when their authority was questioned. Also, when a US Army Ranger told my dad at the dinner table that he would assassinate President Carter in 1978 if Thieme gave the order. Then yes Thieme's cult is capable of senseless violent psychotic murder. And Zeebrook I could care less if I can't prove it or if you can't prove it to thiemites. It happened.

zeebrook: Any organisation could be said to have some level of psychotic potential. It is dependent upon the individuals involved with so many personal and environmental factors that would need to be considered. That the perpetrator of such an heinous crime had read some of Thieme's material is irrelevant unless one peruses all that the individual has read. Had he read the morning paper, had he read War and Peace, had he read his morning Navigator's devotional.

Truthtesty: Not every organisation is partially and necessarily psychotic. Also, I cannot believe I am reading this foolish statement"

Quote
zeebrook
That the perpetrator of such an heinous crime had read some of Thieme's material is irrelevant

"

Truthtesty: irrelevant? irrelevant? You must be kidding. Sodini had assurance from Thieme doctrine and Thieme rhetoric and Thieme WRITINGS that he could commit mass murder and still go to heaven. And you call that Irrelevant? Sodini had chickened out before and was trying a new approach and was reading Thieme's writing "the integrity of -od' THE DAY BEFORE THE MASS MURDER when he needed to focus and be absorbed. And you would say that Sodini reading Thieme booklets were irrelevant? You must be kidding?! How fatuous!? You have to deny a huge swathe of reality to say "irrelevant". For whatever reason you appear to be trying to protect Thieme and imply that Thieme's writings had no influence on Sodini whatsoever. Fatuous.

Sodini blog diary: August 3, 2009:(day before the sick serial murder)" I took off today, Monday, and tomorrow to practice my routine and make sure it is well polished. I need to work out every detail, there is only one shot. Also I need to be completely immersed into something before I can be successful. I haven't had a drink since Friday at about 2:30. Total effort needed. Tomorrow is the big day. Unfortunately I talked to my neighbor today, who is very positive and upbeat. I need to remain focused and absorbed COMPLETELY. Last time I tried this, in January, I chickened out. Lets see how this new approach works. Maybe soon, I will see God and Jesus. At least that is what I was told. Eternal life does NOT depend on works. If it did, we will all be in hell. Christ paid for EVERY sin, so how can I or you be judged BY GOD for a sin when the penalty was ALREADY paid. People judge but that does not matter. I was reading the Bible and The Integrity of God beginning yesterday, because soon I will see them. I will try not to add anymore entries because this computer clicking distracts me. Also, any of the "Practice Papers" left on my coffee table I used or the notes in my gym bag can be published freely. I will not be embarased, because, well, I will be dead. Some people like to study that stuff. Maybe all this will shed insight on why some people just cannot make things happen in their life, which can potentially benefit others."

[abcnews.go.com]

Sodini blog diary quote: "December 31, 2008:
Tetelestai Church in Pittsburgh, PA - "Be Ye Holy, even as I have been Ye holy! Thus saith the lord thy God!", as pastor Rick Knapp would proclaim. Holy ----, religion is a waste. But this guy teaches (and convinced me) you can commit mass murder then still go to heaven. Ask him. Call him at [phone number]. If no answer there, he should still live at [address]. In any case, guilt and fear kept me there 13 long years until Nov 2006. I think his crap did the most damage. Their web site: [www.tetelestai.org]"

[abcnews.go.com]

zeebrook: Furthermore your comment that "Sodini was just a sick psycho thiemite who followed Thieme's incompetent loss of reality to the letter" begs the question. Do you know that this man was sick,:

Truthtesty: yes he was sick. What would you say he was "normal"? Lol Fatuous!

zeebrook: do you know that he was a psycho,

Truthtesty: yes he was psycho. What would you say he was "normal"? Lol Fatuous!

zeebrook:do you know he was a thiemite

Truthtesty: yes he was a thiemite/ knappite who was reading RB Thieme jr's booklet "integrity of -od" to focus and be absorbed and prepare for mass murder. Sodini had attended Tetelestai church for 13 years which had a close relationship with Thieme. What would you say Sodini never heard of Thieme? Lol Fatuous!


zeebrook: and do you know if he was following "thieme's incompetent loss of reality"?

Truthtesty: Sure he was reading thiemite material and it leads to an incompetent loss of reality. What would you say he was "in touch with his inner child?" Lol

zeebrook: I am not defending Sodini, nor finding excuses for his actions (all of which I heartily condemn) but find your logic of linking to thieme alone without oher causes illogical.

Truthtesty: I never said that. I just asserted that I could see it happening from the Thieme cult which equals the pyschosis violence of Manson. That it is logical to assert that from Thieme's influence alone that this psycotic violent behaviour is possible and that this person was demonstrating behaviuor similar to the thiemite irrational psycotic violent behaviour that I had witnessed.
And you are trying to absolve Thieme.

zeebrook: My reading of this site gives me the impression that the discussion is supposed to centre on Thieme's teachings and influences that one can factually demonstrate and not utilise fatuous links.

Truthtesty:Show me the fatuous links. Also you will not restrict the conversation of this site. It includes debunking of Thieme which I and others have spent hours providing evidence. So get busy reading what you are supposedly here for.

zeebrook: The teachings of Thieme certainly polarise sections of the church. Some through faulty concepts of Thieme, some through misunderstanding of his concepts, some through devotees not thinking through or studying the concepts who mindlessly mimic attitudes. So let the forum have rationale discussion and not emotive arguments that stretch beyond the factual arguments.

Truthtesty: Thieme was more than just a political polarizing simpleton. Thieme spoke violent speech. Check you own fatuous assertion of Thieme's writings as being irrelevant. Lol (unbelievable) before you would try to claim the course of conversation of this forum is irrational or fatuous. Lol also research Sodini before and after Tetelestai to gather evidence instead of entirely dismissing Sodinis 13 year involvement with Tetelestai AND suggesting that it was some mysterious factor ALONE and not Thieme at all, as the cause of Sodini's psychosis.

Truthtesty: There are emotional reactions that occur here all the time and it does not interfere with logic. And? That will continue. However, the argument that Thieme's potential violence was equal to the level of psycotic violence of Manson cult is logical not irrational. I can not prove the US Ranger story but it happened and is a logical example and not a fatuous link. Also Sodini himself from his own diary was a thiemite who was reading RB Thieme jrs writing "the integrity of -od" and was following Thieme's assurances that he would go to heaven even though he committed mass murder. THE DAY BEFORE THE MASS MURDER of 3 innocent women. It is fatuous to say Thieme's writings were "irrelevant".

Truthtesty



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/21/2009 09:04AM by Truthtesty.

Sistersoap,

Thank you for your August 20 post. From most of my experience with Thiemeites they in fact do not know Greek or Hebrew and often cannot read plain English. One can generally overcome the criticism of Thieme issue by using passages that say we must test the spirits etc, plus the example of the Bereans. Furthermore provided you do not lambast Thieme from the outset you can get their attention, if you focus on Thieme's works (books and tapes) they listen more then you show them from the scriptures, reference books etc that what Thieme has said is not strictly correct, or blatantly wrong. Unfortunatelyif you go the other way (scripture then refer to Thieme's works) they often turn off believing you are on the attack. So show them Thieme's comments then the scripture refutation.

With respect to Greek and Hebrew it is relatively easy to get a good grammar or syntax work, look up the scripture reference at the back and then check out what is said about the verse you want to talk with Thiemeites about. As an example. In the book "Integrity of God" Thieme exegetes Romans 8:28. The page number depends on whether you have an earlier or later copy, from memory its around page 185 (do not have a copy with me now). Anyway Thieme makes the statement "No singular verb ever takes a plural subject". Show the Thiemeite this quote then show them a copy of Daniel B. Wallace's "Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics" page 399 wherein he discusses how the neuter plural noun invariably takes the singular verb. Turn to Blass-Debrunner "A Grammar of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature" and you will see similar comments. In this instance it can easily be seen that Thieme has made an error in his Greek grammar.

However you do need to be careful in this matter because Thieme's conclusion on the use of the verb sunergei and the noun/adjective panta in Romans 8:28 is justifiable. Wallace in another section demonstrates that panta could be either the subject or the object of sunergei in Romans 8:28 dependent on the textual justification for the inclusion or not of the words ho theos. The Majority Text excludes these two words.

My point is that there are ways and means to discuss issues with Thiemeites to show where his doctrine is not correct, where his logic faulters, where his language skills are debateable. These arguments, I find get through to Thiemeites, far more than anecdotes. Again I am not demeaning a person's experience of Thieme, I am simply garnering information to calmly, gently guide Thiemeites to an appreciation of the Word of God as God's divine word and not Thieme's word.

Have to go now. In another post I will give you another example, this time from the Hebrew where you can clearly and simply show Thiemeites that maybe R.B. has over shot the mark. Would do it now but do not have access to my books and notes here at this moment in time.

Zeebrook

To prebound:

Pardon me if you are not a thiemite. You delivered false thiemite information. No deals. Not bitter. Since you are so sensitive about being called a thiemite perhaps you should be more careful and actually check information for accuracy before you post with your name.

Truthtesty

To prebound:

If you are as careless with information as you have demonstrated, it is highly likely that you like others have missed many of Thieme's "doctrinal" errors.

Truthtesty

Quote

If you are as careless with information as you have demonstrated, it is highly likely that you like others have missed many of Thieme's "doctrinal" errors.

I admit that's possible. It's also possible you're so full of vinegar that you missed some things he was right about. And this is not to say that I disagree with SisterSoap's assessment of the inherent danger in mixing truth with error.

I can't really see how you can construe my quoting an obit. verbatim as being careless with information. I wasn't attempting to instigate a debate over whether Pastor Thieme "lettered" in a certain sport, back in 1932, etc. . .I was merely making you folks aware that the object of your angst and ire had died. Pardon me for using an "official" source. Okey-dokey?

take care,
prebound

To the Forum:

One could say Thieme was about as Christian as Sodini.
There never was a spiritual need to agree with Thieme about anything. There never was a need to submit to his corrupt authority for spiritual maturity.

Quote
zeebrook
Thanks Prebound for your post.

Whilst disagreeing with a number of the teachings of R.B. Thieme Jr he was still a christian brother who served the Lord and now is face to face with Him to receive his reward.

Truthtesty: RB Thieme jr could have just as easily been on someone's payroll for a neocon billionaire political propaganda agenda to create a version of "christianity" which favored rich greedy millionaires twisting scripture in the same fashion as Gerhard Kittle did for Adolph Hitler for political propaganda for the "Jewish solution". And Kittle was arrested by the Allies after WWII.

Thieme was the "Fixed News" of the 60's, 70's, and 80's before cable tv news. One possible payroll for Thieme would have been HL Hunt Teaxs oil tycoon billionaire, who organized Americanism Seminars of which Gen. Wedemeyer and Thieme spoke about Communist Brainwashing at these seminars. In addition HL Hunt was famously cited by President Eisenhauer" [from a letter to Edgar Newton Eisenhower, dated November 8, 1954] Should any political party attempt to abolish Social Security, unemployment insurance, and eliminate labor laws and farm programs, you would not hear of that party again in our political history. There is a tiny splinter group, of course, that believes you can do these things. Among them are H.L. Hunt (you possibly know his background), a few other Texas oil millionaires, and an occasional politician or business man from other areas. Their number is negligible and they are stupid."
(Orange has detailed info on Americanism Seminars)


Thieme certainly agreed with Hunt poiltically. Thieme also propagandized to attack Iraq since the 1970s. Noticeable is the fact that Hunt's company was the 1st American company to strike an oil deal in Iraq before the Iraqi government even had an oil law. "Lawmakers: Bush Admin Knew of Hunt Oil Deal in Iraq New questions are being raised over how a personal friend of President Bush secured an oil contract with the Kurdish regional government in Iraq last year. On Wednesday, the House Oversight Committee said Bush administration officials knew the Texas-based Hunt Oil was planning on signing the deal, despite official US policy to discourage agreements that would undermine Iraq?s central government in Baghdad. Iraqi officials condemned the deal as illegal because Iraq still lacks a comprehensive oil law. Newly released documents show US officials did nothing to oppose the deal and even appeared to encourage it. Hunt CEO Ray Hunt has been a key Republican fundraiser. He sits on the board of directors for Halliburton and is a member of the Foreign Intelligence Advisory Board under an appointment from President Bush. The disclosure comes amidst new controversy over the Bush administration?s admitted role in drafting no-bid contracts between the Iraqi government and five major Western oil companies" [www.democracynow.org]

Was Thieme a believer? Or possiblya paid political hack?

Would a true believer twist the Word of -od? What reward is there for that ?

Truthtesty



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/21/2009 01:14PM by Truthtesty.

I had a look at the forum today as I had not logged in for a while. I hadn't heard about the Sodini murders. I don't live in America. I don't think the murders made the main newspapers here. Sodini's statement "you can commit mass murder and still go to heaven" really hilights a very big misunderstanding of how salvation works. Yes, salvation is the work of Jesus Christ, not the work of any human. But people often misunderstand the definition of faith as taught by Jesus. Faith is not just a thought in the mind. Faith is shown and manifested by the act of doing what one believes in. Saying one believes in Jesus while behaving in a hateful manner towards others is not a true or sincere faith. What did Jesus mean in the the Sermon on the Mount when he was asked "Teacher, how do I gain eternal life?" Jesus replied, love thy neighbor as thyself." This is a direct reference to acts of love resulting in eternal life. Is Jesus contradicting himself? He also says "He that believeth in me shall never die, yet shall he live." And Jesus said "not of works lest any man should boast" Why does Jesus appear to be telling us to believe in his name only with no work involved to obtain eternal life and then tell us to do the work of acts of love to obtain eternal life? This is a question that haunted me for years. Then one day, the answer came to me. By faith, Jesus meant the ACTION of living the way. Acting out your belief is faith. Jesus said "I AM THE WAY, the truth and the life. No man cometh unto the father but through me." Jesus did the work of his sacrificial death on the cross when he poured out his righteousness and mercy on mankind. No human did the work of forgiving mankind. However, when man has faith, believes in the gift of forgiveness this manifests in a contrite and repentent heart and the person does acts of love as a result of their belief in the way of Jesus. By faith, Jesus was not referring to just a thought in the mind but true faith which shows itself in action. A person who commits acts of hate such as murder cannot sincerely believe in the name of Jesus. After all, Jesus is God and God is love.

I would also like to say something to Sistersoap regarding posting # 157. I attending Berachah from 5 or 6 years old to the time I was an older teenager. The judgemental name calling retoric from Thieme resulted in horrible feelings of judgement and rejection of most people as I was growing up. The bible tells us that we cannot love God whom we have not seen if we do not love our neighbor whom we have see. I can tell you that this is absolutely true. I did not begin to feel love coming from God until I expelled all the feelings of judgement and nonforgiveness and nonacceptance that I had learned from Thieme. Negativity blocks the love of God from reaching us. God does not think about man in a judgemental way. This is also a common misconception of God. God is accepting. God does not look at man and think how bad he is. God accepts man. God looks at man and sees the good in man. For example, if someone cuts you off in traffic, we think about how rude the person is. God thinks about what good the person is trying to do. He is trying to get to work so he can feed his family. It took me years and years to learn to accept everyone and forgive everything. I now realize that if someone hurts me they do so from ignorance. Only recently as I look at my fellow humans with clear accepting eyes free of nonforgiveness that I can honestly say that I feel God's love. God's love is a real force that can be blocked by the real force of negativity.

In Christ
Truthseeker

Confessions of A Wandering Jew
[www.associatedcontent.com]

truthseek,

My experiences with persons and myself involved with Thieme's ministry has been similar in regards to criticizing. Specifically, an attitude towards other teachers who do not teach "doctrine" or toward other denominations. I have read all these posts during my time of personal reflection and growth with the Lord and have a really come to see how these "teachings" or "doctrines" are extremely harmful toward Christian growth and harmony.

Criticism and name calling I believe are symptoms to larger problems like anger, malice or in the case of those who emphasize doctrine, doctrine, doctrine, doctrine for spiritual maturity- arrogance, thereby criticizing those who don't have "it right" or are too shallow to learn from. If all we had was Jn 3:16, God could teach us something new everyday of our natural life and into eternity with that one verse because God Himself is unsearchable. Have you had that happen to you? Hearing or reading a verse that you have heard hundreds or thousands of times. Then, BAM. God's Spirit shows you an aspect, idea, motivation, encouragement.....you name the adjective______, that you did not see before. Why is that? It could be that we did not see that verse clearly or understand some aspect about it correctly, but in any case, God is speaking to us! I have had scripture that I "know very well" come to life in a way that I did not "see" before yet the meaning of that scripture did not change :)

Remember what Paul taught....knowledge makes arrogant BUT love edifies. Knowledge is directed toward self, love towards others. This is, in my opinion, one of but many problems with Thiemes doctrines. Way too much emphasis toward doctrine that is poorly or destructively exegeted (privacy, confession, God not having emotions, redefining words ect) and taught and not enough emphasis on good works of service, love, demonstrating proof of our declared justification through denial the sin nature. There are so many doctrines that are not taught or ignored that are essential for Christ-likeness. The way he defines "confess" does not give way to a proper view of how we are to view sin, a repugnant assault on His holiness. Rebounding and keep moving sounds good but if we don't confess our sin as God sees it, it first is not confession but mouthing words but we also need to have a plan and purpose as to how we are to not continue in sin. We do not or should not continue in sin so that confession may abound.

I would like to gently challenge or clearify a comment you made.

"Negativity blocks the love of God from reaching us. God does not think about man in a judgemental way. This is also a common misconception of God. God is accepting. God does not look at man and think how bad he is. God accepts man. God looks at man and sees the good in man."

I assume the "us" is in reference to believers in Christ. I wholeheartedly agree that negativity does block or does not allow us to experience the love of God, per. Gal 5:22. However, in regards to God not thinking about man (if by man you mean natural or unbeliever) in a judgment way, that would be incorrect. Plenty of scripture demonstrates this Rom. 5:18 in but one of many.