To the Forum:


To be more specific about Chafer's beliefs against military and corporate institutions -

Dr. Lewis Sperry Chafer in reference to "kosmos" "World" (Vol 7 pg 311): (3) The institutions of men as set up independent of God and headed by Satan, that is, the satanic system organized upon principles of self, greed, armament, and commercialism. This is the world that God does not love and the believer is warned against loving (1 John 2:15–17).


Truthtesty

kcjones;

"However all I was doing was showing the FALLACY of Bob's Logic, and I don't believe in that
sin-unto-death crap, and you shouldn't either."

Aren't you the advocate of reading your Bible kc?

"If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give
him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall
pray for it." 1Jn5:16

"I have no bitterness, you don't know me..."

Noted. You don't know me either, kc, so assuming I don't read the Bible is a guess.

I stand corrected. Peter denied Christ, but you'll have to enlighten me about Jonah. Whatever
I said that you took exception to aside, my point was that he went to great lengths to avoid
confronting the Assyrians.

"By the way, if you take your leave, I've got one word for you: CHICKEN"

**chuckle** What kind of chicken? Bantum roosters are plucky little devils. (talk about
misdirection!) Actually, I am too much the other way, and I've reined myself in of late.
Arguing about strongly held beliefs that oppose my own is very frustrating, a reaction
that I'm sure my antagonists feel about me. :O)

Mile2

The verse you cite mandates that a minister have one wife. That appears to be a prohibition
of poligamy to me. It doesn't say he can't be divorced, but then for those who are bent on
slamming some guy it seems a reasonable place to start.

Truthtesty

"KC is quite correct. If someone had turned away from Thieme's false teachings and developed
Alzheimer's, "Sin-unto-Death" is exactly what Thieme and thiemites would claim of the stricken
Alzheimer's patient - WITH EXTREME PREJUDICE!"

**wince** Look who's accusing others of extreme prejudice! Shakespear would say; "Physician,
heal thyself"! I know several people who have left Thieme's ministry, and some of them remain
my close friends. Do you recall what Bob teaches about the privacy of the priesthood, or were
you reading you comic books while he spoke? We all have the prerogative to choose a pastor as
we see fit, and no ridicule should be forthcoming. You presume too much. Let's stick to what has
actually been said, TT, not what you assume might be said.

On the topic of suffering, in whatever form it might take, and whatever circumstances attend it,
just because a person contrats a disease, or suffers some catastrophe, it doesn't necessarily
follow that he is being judged by God. Job's friends made the mistake of assuming that. Add
to Job's experiences those of Daniel, Joseph, David, Moses, Paul, etc., etc., etc. Misfortune
is part and parcel of thie veil of tears. The question is; where are we in standing with God
when we encounter problems?

In many cases God allows misfortune to befall us as a testemony to the power of His Word in
our souls. It glorifies Him when we endure and overcome. Where Bob is concerned, he has
forgotten alot (a blessing, some would say), but when he prays he is still sharp and on target,
which is evidence that the filling of God the Holy Spirit trumps even a dire physical ailment such
as he has.

kcjones

I am dead serious when I say that I am sorry for your inlaw's misfortune, kc, but I don't know
them, and haven't the slightest idea of the circumstances. It comes to mind, however, that we
are all victims of our own folly, to a great extent, and I lay the blame for much of what happens
to everyone, of an adverse nature, to that malpratice. Don't jump to conclusions! I'm not
assuming that they are screwed up, but we all share a common ailment, the human condition,
and that accounts for most of our suffering.

You say you don't know Bob Thieme, so I assume that you base your opinion of him on the word
of other people. At first blush, I find this a tad odd, for a man who professes to be an independent
thinker, but I can understand that you would accept as true what your loved ones claim is true.
Those denunciations are also reinforced by such sites as this one, and the venemous pronouncements
of TT and his allies.

So let's pursue the charge of "chicken", shall we old boy? In way of absolute proof of what you think
you already know, listen to some tapes of Bob's for one week, and then give me a blow by blow
run down of what you disagree with. Fair enough? His tapes are free, and can be aquired on the
Berachah website, but you have to navigate to his tapes, and not Bobby's.

I would very much enjoy jousting with you about issues that you have recognized first hand, and have
not just taken the word of others about.

Imjustme, got busy at work. Hopefully I can get back here by Monday.

Have a Blessed weekend, and stay warm.

Imjustme:

Thank you for your following response:

"The verse you cite mandates that a minister have one wife. That appears to be a prohibition of poligamy to me. It doesn't say he can't be divorced, but then for those who are bent on slamming some guy it seems a reasonable place to start."

I am wondering why you conclude that this verse refers to polygamy. Are you basing your opinion on Thieme's explanation? I find it strange that God would warn against polygamy here, when I can't think of any other passage in the epistles that deals with that subject. Thieme's teaching on this passage of 4 words then is that polygamy disqualifies someone from entering the ministry, but divorce does not. So logically if a polygamist wanted to be a church leader, all he would have to do is divorce all but one wife. In God's eyes he would now qualify. Does this make any sense at all?

Many Bible scholars discount the idea of polygamy in this verse, and in fact the Jerusalem Bible reads, "He must not have been married more than once." Please explain your reasoning.

mile2

P.S. Regarding the rest of your comment, "for those who are bent on slamming some guy it seems a reasonable place to start.", it is offensive that you would ascribe evil motives to me. I have made no accusations against you, and it is unreasonable to judge me unjustly.

To im:

I have no time for your false accusations, your false attacks, nor your childish remarks about comic books or TT.

But let's stick to what Thieme did say:


Thieme quote BOC 1979:

As proof that there are others who understand that the blood of Christ is figurative, permit me to quote Arndt and Gingrich



Truthtesty:

Arndt and Gingrich "haima":
haima

1. lit.---a. of human blood J 19:34 etc... hemorrhage (cf. Lev 15:25, 20:18)
(then lengthy paragraph - including scriptural references, authors, and references to individual author's writings)

b. of blood of animals Hb 9:7,18,25 etc... It's use as food is forbidden (cf. Lev 3:17, 7:26f, 17:10)
(then lengthy paragraph - including scriptural references, authors, and references to individual author's writings)

2. fig--- a. as the seat of life (Lev 17:11, Wsd 7:2, Jos., Ant 1, 102) etc... shed blood = kill (Aeschyl.; Gen 9:6, 37:22, Lev 17:4,13, 1Km 25:31 al.;... Luke 11: 50, Acts 22:20, Rom. 3:15 (Ps 13:3, Is 59:7) Rv 16:6, Luke 11:51, Mt 23:20, Rv 16:6, 18:24, 17:6, 19:2, (1Km 9:7), 6:10, Pol 2:1, Mt 27: 4,24, Heb 12:4, (cf Heliod 7,8,2 ...) ...
(then lengthy paragraph - including scriptural references, authors, and references to individual author's writings)

b. blood and life as an expiatory sacrifice 1Cl 55:1---Esp of the blood of Jesus as means of expiation Rom 3:25...
(then lengthy paragraph - including scriptural references, authors, and references to individual author's writings)

3. of the (apocalyptic) red color, whose appearance in heaven indicates disaster etc...
(then lengthy paragraph - including scriptural references, authors, and references to individual author's writings)

Truthtesty:

Arndt and Gingrich: b. blood and life as an expiatory sacrifice 1Cl 55:1---Esp of the blood of Jesus as means of expiation Rom 3:25...

So to determine the figurative usage of "blood and life" as an expiatory sacrifice compare 1Cl 55:1 with Rom. 3:25.

1 Clement 55:1 says

1Clem 55:1
But, to bring forward examples of Gentiles also; many kings and rulers, when some season of pestilence pressed upon them, being taught by oracles have delivered themselves over to death, that they might rescue their fellow citizens through their own blood. Many have retired from their own cities, that they might have no more seditions.

[www.earlychristianwritings.com]

Truthtesty:
You can understand the true figurative usage meant by Arndt and Gingrich. In this case is that "haima" represents more than just literal blood it also represents[/u] literal blood and literal life sacrificed. The figurative usage of "blood" by Arndt and Gingrich is the word "blood" being used to figuratively point to the ruler's own literal "blood and life" as an expiatory sacrifice. Arndt and Gingrich are saying the figurative usage of haima in this case is that "haima" represents more than just literal blood it also represents literal blood and literal life sacrificed.

Arndt and Gingrich goes on:

Arndt and Gingrich: b. blood and life as an expiatory sacrifice 1Cl 55:1---Esp of the blood of Jesus as means of expiation Rom 3:25...

So comparing the Arndt and Gingrich's figurative usage properly as in comparison with Cl 55:1 we see that the figurative usage of "blood" by Arndt and Gingrich is the word "blood" "haima" being used to figuratively to point to Jesus' own literal "blood and life" as an expiatory sacrifice (not just blood alone). Thieme is jumping to a false conclusion to provide false evidence for his false theory of "spiritual death only" and in doing so is attacking the blood of Christ. Ardnt and Gingrich do not understand or agree with Thieme's false "figurative" teaching.

You can compare and see that Arndt and Gingrich's figurative usage haima in both cases 1Cl 55:1 with Rom 3:25, is the same figurative usages, although obviously used with different people.

Therefore Thieme's conclusion that this in some "sense" supports Thieme's false theory of "spiritual death only" and Thieme's false theory that "haima" is figurative and does not refer to literal blood, is not substantiated by the evidence of Bauer, Arndt and Gingrich.



Truthtesty

To the Forum:


Here's more of Thieme's quote:

Thieme BOC As proof that there are others who understand that the blood of Christ is figurative, permit me to quote Arndt and Gingrich, the latest Greek lexicographers. Under the word haima, “blood,” they devote an entire paragraph to the figurative uses of the word. They describe it as “the blood and life as an expiatory sacrifice, especially the blood of Christ as the means of expiation.” Expiation is paying the penalty for sin, and Jesus Christ did not bleed to death to pay the penalty for sin.



Bauer Arndt Gingrich: b. blood and life as an expiatory sacrifice 1Cl 55:1---Esp of the blood of Jesus as means of expiation Rom 3:25


Truthtesty:
According to to Bauer Arndt Gingrich, Jesus did bleed his literal shed blood and give his life as means of expiation.

Thieme lied.



Truthtesty

Imjustme:

While I am waiting for you to respond to my last message to you, I would like to comment on a portion of your first post.

"But even more telling about this man; When Bob informed his father that he
was resigning his commission in the U.S. Air Force to become a minister the
old man threatened to disinherit him. The Thieme family is very wealthy (They
are the principal stock holders in a large brewery). Robert Thieme carried out
his threat, and Bob was cut out of the will, which was a loss of millions. His only
sibling, a sister, got all the money."

I have heard many followers of Thieme report this same story of Thieme's family background and his choice of the ministry over an inheritance of millions. However, after reading the recently published biography entitled "Robert B. Thieme, Jr.: His Ancestry: His Life" by C.G. Hunt, I discovered that none of these things were true. Thieme's father was a water purifier salesman who rented a house in Beverly Hills. After Thieme's grandfather died and the financial support from him ended, Thieme's father moved into a triplex. He was a man of modest means and when he died in Redlands, CA he left no will and his estate was so small it did not go through probate. All these facts are thoroughly documented with public records in this biography.

It is very clear that Thieme was not truthful about his background and especially deceptive about his supposed monetary sacrifice when he decided to choose service for the Lord over worldly riches.

In Acts 5 we see that God takes a very dim view of people who lie in that fashion. Ananias sold a plot of land he owned and then gave only a portion of the proceeds to the work of the church. However, he told the believers he had given up all he had received for the sale. Why did he lie? He did so to elevate himself in the eyes of his fellow believers and bring admiration and praise to himself. The scriptures say his wife Sapphira was "privy" to what her husband had done. But when she was questioned she decided not to speak the truth and condemn what her husband had done, but to remain in support of her husband. God's judgement was swift, and both fell dead when confronted with their lies.

What Thieme has done almost exactly parallels this portion of scripture. Why did he lie about giving up a huge inheritance? For the same reason as Ananias. Thieme wanted to elevate himself, to bring admiration and praise to himself. Such behavior alone would disqualify him from teaching the truth of God's Word. A liar cannot know God's truth, because it is "spiritually discerned".

All those who become aware of Thieme's deception (and this example is only one of many) should be careful not to follow in the footsteps of Sapphira. No matter how long a person has been committed to Thieme and his teachings, in order to follow the Lord, he or she should condemn what Thieme did and discontinue their association with that ministry.

To im:

I found a little extra time.


im quote **wince** Look who's accusing others of extreme prejudice! Shakespear would say; "Physician, heal thyself"!


Truthtesty: You wince? LOL! How is this? Thieme intruded into my life. I am just setting the record straight. I am setting Thieme straight. I am setting you straight. The record that you do not want set straight. The truth you do not want told. Why don't you want it told? because Thieme's "divorced from reality" extremely prejudiced "House of Cards" is tumbling down and you are tumbling with along with it.

Also, this is not a Shakepeare website. Jesus says "Physician, heal thyself" is Luke 4:23.

im quote: Do you recall what Bob teaches about the privacy of the priesthood, or were you reading you comic books while he spoke?

Truthtesty: You speak to me of comic books? LOL! "Invisible hero"? (shhh - sounds like "invisble man") LOL who was reading comic books? Who was reading comic books? Hilarious!

"privacy of the priesthood"? is that what Thieme meant by attacking nearly every christian pastor from the present to the past 2000 years? What about the privacy of all the pastors that Thieme attacked? What about the privacy of thier priesthood? What about the shock that members of the attack pastor's congregation would experience upon hearing Thieme attack thier personal pastor or thier personal church? What about the privacy of thier priesthood and thier worship? Thieme did not believe in the privacy of the priesthood.

im quote: We all have the prerogative to choose a pastor as we see fit, and no ridicule should be forthcoming.

Truthtesty: This is not true. Young adults of the age of 17 are not allowed to choose a different pastor or different church.

"no ridicule should be forthcoming"? Then why did Thieme ridicule nearly everyone?

im quote: You presume too much.

Truthtesty: I state the truth as it happened. Your putting on a show of pretense.

im quote: Let's stick to what has actually been said,

Truthtesty: Let's stick to what has actually been said - you can start with what Thieme said about "Bauer, Arndt and Gingrich" and "haima".


Truthtesty

Mile2,

I never heard Bob teach that verse, and like I said, I don't care what it means.
I don't care if Bobby Thieme is qualified or not. I don't care how many wives
he's had. I don't care if he has a harem. He isn't my pastor, and he never will
be, and who or what he is is of no importance to me. Unlike yourself, I'm not
on a mission to discredit him, or any man in the ministry.

I haven't assigned any motive that isn't glaringly obvious. You ARE trying to
prove that this guy is violating God's law, are you not? That is "slamming" in
my vernacular, whether it's true or not. He isn't your pastor either, is he? So
what is the big deal? What stake do you have in the matter? And more important,
why are you badgering about Bobby Thieme?

I DON'T CARE ABOUT BOBBY THIEME!!!!!!!

You, and all the theologians on the planet, can claim he is screwed up for all I
care. OK? This is the last word I have to say about the wife issue. i'm only
hanging around here to converse with kcjones, then I'll be a big chicken and
scram.

To the Forum:


im quote: The question is; where are we in standing with God when we encounter problems?


Truthtesty: "Sin unto death"? sure thiemites legalistically copy and apply this negative cold seared conscience towards whole groups of people that might suffer in our society and in the world, that Thieme has prejudged for them. Ex: "bleeding hearts" (that would include Lewis Sperry Chafer), Democrats, long-hairs, etc...

It is possible that Thieme could be suffering discipline for his false teachings.


im quote: but when he prays he is still sharp and on target, which is evidence that the filling of God the Holy Spirit trumps even a dire physical ailment such as he has.


Truthtesty: "sharp and on target"? LOL Is this a bombing run? Evidence? At 1st glance this is more false thiemite mystiscism. Perhaps you should complete a "bombing mission" by running Thieme over to Johns Hopkins Alzheimer's Disease Research Center for analysis to test, analyze and record this "evidence".


Truthtesty