To the Forum:

Dr. Chafer and Walter Bauer (Arndt and Gingrich) appear to have very similar conclusions.


Dr. Lewis Sperry Chafer

Quote

"From such passages as these it is to be seen that the term heart represents specific exercise of the realities of human life and may thus, to some extent, be distinguished from the soul and the spirit, [b:ac6f6d8e19]though here, again, [u:ac6f6d8e19]no close line[/u:ac6f6d8e19] may be drawn[/b:ac6f6d8e19] and human speculation is of little profit."

"A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature" Walter Bauer (Arndt and Gingrich) p. 893

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[b:ac6f6d8e19]ψυχη[/b:ac6f6d8e19], ης, η (Hom.+; inscr., pap., LXX, En., Ep. Arist, Philo, Joseph., Test. 12 Patt., Sib. Or.) soul life; [b:ac6f6d8e19]it is oft. [u:ac6f6d8e19]impossible to draw hard and fast lines[/u:ac6f6d8e19] betw. the meanings of this many-sided word.[/b:ac6f6d8e19]

Truthtesty

To the Forum:

Intresting article for the "lord it over" freaks.

"[u:be3ce57af4]Members are to submit to elders in the same sense that elders are to submit to the members.[/u:be3ce57af4] In Ephesians 5:21, we are told by Paul that we are to submit one to another in the fear of God. When eiders realize they are not rulers in the sense of an arbitrary ruler, and when members and elders start submitting to each other, we will then see our relationships improving to that which God intended. "

[www.theexaminer.org]

No Christian can dispute that Jesus has the ultimate authority, yet Jesus [u:be3ce57af4]SERVED[/u:be3ce57af4] ALL! to and through DEATH on the Cross.

How arrogant is it that a "Lt. Colonel" so-called pastor-teacher would try to impose GENTILE authority in "doctrine" over God's property?


Truthtesty

To the Forum:

Can you recall a single time "The Colonel" submitted to you? To Thiemites just the idea seems absurd. That by itself is evidence.


Truthtesty

Quote
Truthtesty
To the Forum:

Can you recall a single time "The Colonel" submitted to you? To Thiemites just the idea seems absurd. That by itself is evidence.


Truthtesty

They play his old lesson tapes on our local radio station on Sunday mornings. I could never, never, never submit my consciousness to a totalitarian like him, with all due respect.

To Mikko,

Mikko

Quote

I could never, never, never submit my consciousness to a totalitarian like him, with all due respect.

That's what Dr. Custer said in his critique of Thieme.

"What's Wrong with the Teaching of R. B. Thieme, Jr.?" by Stewart Custer

Quote

"...A knowledge of basic principles of Bible interpretation will presence the believer from falling into errors in interpreting Scripture. If the believer remembers that the Bible should be interpreted literally, he will avoid giving specialized definitions of terms that make them mean something other than the simple literal sense. If he remembers that individual passages in the Bible should be interpreted in harmony with the rest of Scripture, he will avoid making one verse contradict another or one passage contradict the overall doctrine of Scripture. A comparison of all the Scriptural passages that deal with a particular doctrine will preserve the believer from misinterpreting a single passage. Christians everywhere should certainly study the teachings of the Word of God; they should also conform their lives to these teachings. [u:61ce4894c3]Never should they surrender their conscience to any human teacher.[/u:61ce4894c3] "Test all things; hold fast that which is good" (I Thessalonians 5:21 ). The Christian ought not hesitate to consult Bible commentaries by devout men of the past. No believer is a law unto himself. Neither should he be overly influenced by any modern teacher. A commanding personality is no substitute for correct doctrine."...

Truthtesty

To Mikko:

I am not suggesting for anyone to submit to Thieme. However, for Thiemites who have already created destructive behavior patterns by submitting thier conscience to Thieme, I am suggesting that Thieme should have found more creative ways to submit himself before the flock (God's property). The point being it's not just Thieme's 1 way street (my way or the highway mentality). The relationship between elders and the flock is a 2 way street.


Truthtesty

This may be overkill, but I was reviewing ephesians’ posts, and just couldn’t resist another challenge to you Thieme followers out there:

[u:bfbcae5917]ephesians:[/u:bfbcae5917]
[i:bfbcae5917]But you say “whenever we fall into sin, we need to admit we’ve sinned”, but then when 1 John 1:9 states this [b:bfbcae5917]very [/b:bfbcae5917]idea, you say no, that’s not what that verse says, even though, well, that’s what it says. [/i:bfbcae5917][02/18]

My complete statement was: “Obviously, whenever we fall into sin, we need to admit we’ve sinned and repent.” A believer’s repentance from sins is a very simple, basic Biblical principle known and understood by Christians throughout history, and is very different from this constant, moment-to-moment “naming and citing” of all sins to God in prayer, which was never taught for nearly 2,000 years of church history. And 1 John 1:9 does not state “this very idea” at all—this verse is not dealing with a believer repenting from his sins in his ongoing spiritual walk. The direct result of the confession of sins in 1 John 1:9 is that God is “faithful and just to [b:bfbcae5917]forgive us our sins[/b:bfbcae5917], and to [b:bfbcae5917]cleanse us from all unrighteousness[/b:bfbcae5917].” And it is very clear from Matt 3 and Mark 1 that confession of sins can be used in reference to an unbeliever confessing his sinful state before God and his need of the Savior (a general confession of one’s sins). Yet ephesians refuses to acknowledge this. And, as I thoroughly covered in my 02/17 and 03/24 posts to Galiban, the entire context of 1 John 1 is dealing with the Person and Work of Christ and being saved versus being lost, not spirituality and carnality. Spirituality versus carnality is very clearly described in 1 Cor 3, a passage that none of the Thieme followers on this forum have been willing to address.

[b:bfbcae5917]1 John 1:9[/b:bfbcae5917] If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

You Thieme followers claim to believe in the complete forgiveness of our sins at salvation*, but when 1 John 1:9 states this very idea, you say no, that’s not what the verse says, even though, well, that’s what it says. You say this verse has to mean something completely different from all the other NT scriptures on forgiveness of sins and cleansing from unrighteousness, ignoring all evidence to the contrary (see my 04/22 post addressed to GeneZ).

Ephesians has refused to even respond to my repeated challenges concerning Thieme’s heresy concerning forgiveness of sins, the alleged connection between 1 John 1:9 and Eph 5:18, the alleged connection between “losing fellowship” and grieving or quenching the Spirit, the alleged connection between “regaining fellowship” and putting on the new man, the description of spirituality and carnality in 1 Cor 3, etc., etc. He stubbornly clings to his Thiemite interpretation of his favorite verse, 1 John 1:9, and closes his eyes to everything else.

While I’m at it, a few more comments on brainout’s empty speculations on “rebound” ([u:bfbcae5917][www.geocities.com][/u:bfbcae5917]):

[i:bfbcae5917]This mandate to use 1Jn1:9 is pretty easy to trace in the Bible, huh. It’s got a consistent usage history, huh. And it’s pretty simple to use, huh: takes a nanosecond when irritated in traffic, feeling afraid or guilty, and wham! Pure again. Until the next sin. Which makes it pretty doggone important to know, huh.[/i:bfbcae5917]

Huh? What? Constantly confessing all one’s sins to “regain fellowship” is “easy to trace in the Bible, huh”? Where is there even one scripture that says this? Brainout, with all his ramblings about the Septuagint, and koine Greek and Hebrew, has not been able to show us one. “It’s got a consistent usage [in] history, huh”? When? Where? Where in the entire history of God’s people do we ever find this constant, non-stop confession of all sins to God? It’s really “doggone important to know, huh”? Then why doesn’t the Word of God simply tell us this even once?

[i:bfbcae5917]So in 2000 years, where's the teaching on this vital [u:bfbcae5917]connection[/u:bfbcae5917] between 1Jn1:9 and Filling?[/i:bfbcae5917]

I couldn’t have asked the question any better myself. In 2,000 years there isn’t the slightest hint of evidence of any Christians who taught this “connection between 1Jn1:9 and Filling.” After asking the question, brainout tries to convince us once again how indispensable the Septuagint is and cites Gen 3:12-13 and Isa 53:10-11, which don’t even come close to saying, “Confess your sins to be restored to fellowship” in Greek, Hebrew, English, or any other language. This “connection” certainly is “vital” to Thieme’s doctrine. But neither Thieme nor his followers have ever been able to show any support for this “connection” from Scripture.

[u:bfbcae5917]ephesians:[/u:bfbcae5917]
[i:bfbcae5917]This person is a long-time student of Thieme’s. Anything I could write concerning such matters as the Filling of the Spirit, or Right-Pastor, etc. would only be copying this persons thoughts, and they do a far better job of clarifying these things than I ever could.[/i:bfbcae5917] [02/18]

If that’s the case, ephesians has some real problems.

Also, on 03/01, Galiban wrote: [i:bfbcae5917]“We are to learn Theology from our church, not a seminary. Show me scriptures that shows a Pastor Teacher is to study at a college or seminary.” [/i:bfbcae5917]

On 05/15, replied: “I thought a pastor had to be Greek scholar? Isn’t Thieme adamant that a pastor has to be educated in Greek before he can teach the Bible? You can’t have it both ways, Galiban. You can’t say a pastor doesn’t need a Bible college and then turn around and say he has to be a Greek scholar. Either he needs a Bible college education or he doesn’t.”

Not only did Galiban fail to respond to my rebuttal, he also contradicted ephesians, his fellow Thieme follower. Let’s compare these two statements:

[u:bfbcae5917]ephesians:[/u:bfbcae5917]
[i:bfbcae5917]And there is a big difference between a guy with a pointy hat telling us what something means, and somebody who has had [b:bfbcae5917]9 years of school[/b:bfbcae5917], exegeting the Greek, and teaching us in a way that our rational minds can see makes sense and pieces together.[/i:bfbcae5917] [01/26]

[u:bfbcae5917]Galiban:[/u:bfbcae5917]
[i:bfbcae5917]We are to learn Theology from our church, not a seminary. Show me scriptures that shows a Pastor Teacher is to study at a [b:bfbcae5917]college or seminary[/b:bfbcae5917].[/i:bfbcae5917] [03/01]

Could any of the Thieme followers please clarify this for me? Because obviously they can’t both be right.

Liberty

____________________
* Galiban and GeneZ have claimed to believe this in their posts, although they contradict themselves by saying we still need future forgiveness. Ephesians, however, has never told us whether or not he accepts Thieme’s heresy of denying the forgiveness of all sins at salvation. [/size:bfbcae5917]

Greetings,

The book, “R.B. Thieme Jr. - His Life, His Ancestry.” by C.G. Hunt, published within the last couple of years (available from Amazon) is an interesting read.

It is written as a pro-Thieme book, and having read it through, I would say that it is written to continue the promotion of the aura of Thieme Jr. and his teachings, now that he is no longer pastor at Berachah.

The book goes into great detail on his family’s history, his military record, academic career and qualifications.

There are some interesting points, such as the fact that Mr Thieme never did achieve the “summa cum laude” title. (This has been written on the back of Thieme booklets for years).

The back cover includes a short, positive review from a fictional? (as far as I can trace) person named Raleigh Newburgh, author and journalist:-

[i:943a51e9d9]“A truly amazing story....a well crafted journey through the branches of a legendary ancestry.”[/i:943a51e9d9]

To the Forum:


According to Thieme's new biography, Thieme never played Football for the University of Arizona and that Thieme's (Masters) graduating class at Dallas Theological Seminary was comprised of only [u:498117a657][b:498117a657]7[/b:498117a657][/u:498117a657] members. Thieme graduated his Masters program "with high honors". Also if you threw in the doctoral students, then Thieme would not have had the highest GPA. Dr. Charles C. Ryrie would have the highest GPA of students graduating that year. Also, Thieme was apparently given 2 extensions to try to complete his doctorate and failed. One of the reasons given by Dallas Theological Seminary to not honor any doctorate was because of a doctoral student not holding to the truth in the doctrinal statement of Dallas Theological Seminary.

I have already proven that Thieme did not finish his doctorate because of WWII, because Thieme is not capable of time travel. Also, Thieme was not "active duty" during the Korean War. The exact reason may never be made public. So it has to be left to the individuals best judgement as to why Thieme did not complete his doctorate. It's worth mentioning though that Thieme does not hold to the efficacy of the literal blood of Jesus in Dallas Theological Seminary's doctrinal statement. It is common knowledge at Berachah that Thieme wrote a letter to DTS dissassociating himself from Dallas Theological Seminary.


And what did Dr. Ryrie say about Thieme's faulty view of the Blood of Christ?

[www.4shared.com]

It's under rbtjrpublic.pdf and you have to dig. It's in appendix E pg 101. Dr. Ryrie gives a brief explanation and also says he agrees completely with the letter of Dr. Williams (which is also included).


Also, The following e-mail is from the University of Arizona (Special Collections)

Quote

Various honors were conferred at graduation at the U of A according to a person’s academic standing in their class when R. B. Thieme attended the university. R. B. Thieme Jr. obtained his undergraduate degree from the University of Arizona in the 1939-40 academic year. The UA Record for that year indicates three graduates received the honor “with highest distinction”, [b:498117a657]18 (including Robert B. Thieme, Jr. who received a BA from the College of Liberal Arts) with “high distinction”[/b:498117a657], and 32 received “with distinction”.


I did find in the 1930 UA Record an explanation for awarding these distinctions:

With Highest Distinction was awarded to the three graduates whose academic standing was highest among all those obtaining bachelor degrees.

With High Distinction was awarded to those students whose academic standing ranked them in the highest 1/20th of the reminder of the class.

With Distinction was awarded to those whose academic standing ranked them in the highest 1/10th of the remainder of the class.

In order to be eligible to receive these distinctions, a student had to have completed at least 60 units of work at the UA.


The UA Record for 1939-40 also indicates that Robert B. Thieme, Jr. was one of three graduates to receive departmental honor in Classical Literature and as one of 66 Senior Scholars that year. UA had a total of 444 seniors that academic year. Most graduated, I think, but I didn’t take the time to count the exact number of names on the list of graduates.


These “distinction” awards were rather in the same vein as the typically increasing degree of honor we think of as “Latin honors” (cum laude, magna cum laude, and summa cum laude) which we use today. Now, however, graduation with academic distinction is based upon a student's grade-point average rather than on their academic positioning among a group of peers. Now terms signifying academic distinction are: Summa Cum Laude (awarded to candidates whose grade-point average is 3.900 or higher), Magna Cum Laude (awarded to candidates whose grade-point average is 3.700-3.899), and Cum Laude (awarded to candidates whose grade-point average is 3.5000-3.699). Cumulative GPA to graduate is 2.0, I think. This is at the U of A… another university might have a different scale.


If you want copies of the pages of the UA Record that lists the UA graduates of Robert B. Thieme Jr.’s class you can contact our document delivery unit to see if you are eligible to obtain copies. They may require you to work through your local library’s interlibrary loan department rather than directly as an individual (unless you do have a UA ID card). You can contact them through email at

askill@u.library.arizona.edu or by phone at 520-621-6438. If you have a UA ID card you can do this all online: [www.library.arizona.edu]



The source information you need to supply to them is

Title: The University of Arizona Record, 1941-42,42-43.

Call number: E 9791 Univ. 1B v. 33-34 Special Collections

Page numbers:

Pp267-285 complete section on degrees and awards for 1939-1940

p. 270-71 (College of Liberal Arts Degrees Conferred) R. B.Thieme listed

p.281 (Departmental Honors) R.B. Thieme listed

p. 282-83 Collegiate Honors (Senior Scholars) R. B. Thieme listed

Although Thieme did well in college, he certainly isn't the super-genius Thiemites make him out to be. Keep in mind there were only [u:498117a657][b:498117a657]7[/b:498117a657][/u:498117a657] students in his graduating class at Dallas Theological Seminary. Also, speaking in front of hundreds of people is customary for all officers in the US military. Obviously, this is where Thieme acquired some of his speaking skills. This is also no "super accomplishment".


Truthtesty

To the Forum:


Ephesians was written to [b:0408cfae23][u:0408cfae23]ALL[/u:0408cfae23][/b:0408cfae23] the saints at Ephesus. This [b:0408cfae23][u:0408cfae23]includes[/u:0408cfae23][/b:0408cfae23] the ELDERS and TEACHERS.

Ephesians 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, [b:0408cfae23]to the saints which are at Ephesus[/b:0408cfae23], and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

So the "lord it over" freaks need to keep that in mind when they read Ephesians 5:21 "Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God"

I say again that Jesus had/has the ultimate authority among men, yet he [b:0408cfae23]served[/b:0408cfae23] all to and through death.


Truthtesty