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Truthtesty
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BUT according to Thieme, you were supposed to distance yourself from those who wouldn't listen to Thieme. So the parent either had to either kick thier young adults out of the house before they were ready for the world or force them to listen Thieme.

Truthtesty

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Truthtesty
To the Forum:

Moving on...

I ran across an article [www.rlhymersjr.com] written by Dr. Hymers.

Any comments?

Truthtesty

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You wish! lol My personal beliefs are my own. I have said before that if Paul's words contradict Jesus's words then Paul's words are "out the window". Pauline christians would like to give the appearance that all words in the bible are equal, but they are not. That's just common sense. I didn't need a special lexicon or a pastor to tell me that. The books of the bible were put together by a bloodthirsty murderous Caeser named Constantine, who worshipped Mithras (Sun-god worshipper at the time and did so for political unity) He was the one who said "By this sign conquer", not Jesus. So pardon me or don't pardon me for being very skeptical of Paul who was a self-confessed Roman citizen, murdered other christians, never met Jesus in the flesh, was not an orignal apostle, had a huge confrontation with Peter(rock) and James and ran(cheesed) to his Roman buddies to save his skin.

By the way if Jesus's words in the bible were the only words actually true, would that be good enough for you?

A lot of Dr. Wall's dissertation shows approach of learning. I said before 1 doesn't need to form a cult around arrogant opinions because of being a narcissitic control freak, then 10 or 20 years learn something new and change it, to learn the Truth. In the mean time hundreds maybe thousands are abused. The Truth stands on it's own, it doesn't need a cult to protect it.

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You just lost it, sir.

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For, if Dr Wall used the same Scriptures which you claim are nonsense? To make his points?

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He must really be an idiot to have any confidence in such Scriptures that you just condemned.

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How can we have cults then? If the Bible is not even a real book?

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To assume there are groups that are not cults? Would be saying the Bible is legit in all its words, and some groups which are not cults, get it right!

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In other words? If the Bible is what you just claimed it is? Then all of Christianity is a cult!

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Want to make up your mind what you really believe, sir?

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If the Bible is not legit? How can one determine what is legit, and what is not on the basis of using the Bible?

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Enjoy your oscillation into irrationality.

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Give me a list of some top preachers in the United States? Give me a few minutes in a search? And I can find criticism for each one. What you did proves nothing. Its just anti Thieme. That's all that matters to you.

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The Blood of Christ as Thieme taught it, originated at DTS.

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I knew a DTS graduate Doctor of Divinity, who showed me how what Thieme taught on the blood was from his class notes.

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Jesus said "It is Finished" before he died physically.
Salvation from sin was completed before his body died.

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Although Thieme's position on the physical and spiritual deaths of Christ is not extreme enough to call it heresy, it has some major exegetical and logical shortcomings. To simplify an evaluation of his arguments, his progression of thought is outlined below:
(1) There is a difference between spiritual death and physical death, since
physically alive people can be spiritually dead (Ephesians 2:1; Romans 5: 12).50
(2) Adam's judgment for his disobedience was spiritual death, not his
physical death, for he lived physically 930 years after the day God said he would
die.51
(3) Therefore, only spiritual death is the judgment demanded for Adam's
original sin that was imputed to us.52
(4) Christ died twice on the cross -- spiritually during the three hours of
separation from the Father from 12:00 noon to 3:00 p.m., and physically soon
afterwards. Evidence for the two deaths includes the plural of death (bemutayv)
in Isaiah 53:9 and the plural of death in the New Testament in resurrection
passages (ek nekron).53
(5) Since the penalty for Adam's sin was spiritual death, one should
conclude that Christ's work of expiation, forgiveness, justification and propitiation
had to be by spiritual death only.
This conclusion is not contradicted by biblical references to the need for
the shedding of physical blood and physical death for remission of sins; for the
Old Testament sacrifices of the physical life of the animals were only typical
(symbolic) of the saving work of Christ. They just pointed to the real expiation
(the removal of the penalty for sin by substitution) at the cross; therefore, there
need not be a direct correlation between the physical death of animals and the
physical death of Christ.54
Further support for his conclusion is Christ's words on the cross at the
conclusion of the three hours of darkness when the Father had forsaken Him:
Christ said, “Tetelestai” ("It is finished"), implying that the work of salvation was
complete before he died physically.55
(6) Finally, Thieme observes that the term blood of Christ is related to
salvation passages that describe expiation (in the terms of forgiveness,
justification
50 Thieme, Blood of Christ, 1977, p. 11.
51 Ibid.
52 Ibid.
53 Thieme specifically mentions Colossians 2:12.
54 Thieme, Blood of Christ, 1977, p. 30.
55 Ibid., p. 12.
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and propitiation).56 Since he has already concluded that these aspects of salvation
were accomplished solely by Christ's spiritual death, he reasons that the blood of
Christ is used figuratively to represent only the spiritual death of Christ.57
There are a number of problems with both the premises and the logical
progression of thought described above. First, the sharp separation between the
physical death of Christ and his spiritual death is unwarranted, for as Thieme
himself acknowledges, "Physical death is an eventual result of) spiritual death, . . .
.”58 Also, Paul clearly contrasts the death of Adam with physical resurrection in I
Corinthians 11 5:20-22, implying that part of Adam's death penalty was physical.
Thus, it appears that Thieme's first three points fail to recognize the close
relationship between spiritual and physical death.
Second, although it may be admitted that Christ's death included his dying
both physically and spiritually, Thieme's exegesis of passages that he claims
specifically refer to death in the plural is highly suspect. The normal
interpretation of Isaiah 53:9 recognizes that the plural of muth is used to show the
intensity of death -- a "plural exaggerativus" according to Delitzsch.59 Also the
New Testament nekros is an adjective meaning "dead," and when it is used as a
substantive, it refers to a dead person, not death. As such it is used idiomatically
in the plural to refer to the abode of the dead (i.e. "the dead ones"), and it never
means the event of death.60 The Greek word for death is thanatos, and it is not
used in the plural in the New Testament. Thieme's premise that the New
Testament teaches that Christ rose from deaths, therefore, ignores the clear
meaning of the terms.
Third, although it is proper to say that the Old Testament animal sacrifices
were typical, that the emphasis of these sacrifices was on a substitutionary
expiation, and that Christ took Adam's spiritual death sentence upon Himself; it is
not warranted by the evidence already discussed to restrict the need for Christ's
substitution to just His spiritual death. Neither does the statement of Christ from
the cross that it was "finished" (tetelestai) necessarily refer solely to his spiritual
death. Probably He had in view both His physical suffering and His spiritual
death, and that He no longer needed to remain alive physically.
Finally, the critical error in Thieme's logic involves his oversight of the
implications of the doctrine of the believer's position in Christ (positional truth).
56 Ibid., p. 4.
57 Ibid., p. 5.
58 Ibid., p. 11.
59 Franz Delitzsch, "Isaiah," in vol. 5: Isaiah 15 to Ezekiel 24, Old Testament Commentaries, 6
vols. (n.p.; reprint ed., Grand Rapids: Associated Publishers and Authors Inc., n.d.).
60 A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Literature, trans. William F.
Arndt and Wilbur Gingrich, 4th rev. ed., s.v. "nekros", pp. 536, 37 and A Greek-English Lexicon,
complied by Henry George Liddell and Robert Scott, 9th rev. ed., s.v. "nekros", pp. 1165, 66.
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This oversight has allowed him to press his first four points to produce his weak
view of the significance of Christ's physical death and his faulty interpretation of
the term blood of Christ.
Thieme himself acknowledges that the believer's reconciliation rests upon
his positional identification with Christ in His bodily death and resurrection
(Romans 6:1-6; Ephesians 2:1-16). He also recognizes that the blood of Christ
accomplished reconciliation (Ephesians 2:13).61 However, he fails to relate these
two truths to each other. Had he done so he would have concluded that the blood
of Christ includes the physical death of Christ as well as his spiritual death. In
view of the fact that the Scriptures not only state that the blood of Christ
accomplished reconciliation, but also forgiveness, redemption, propitiation,
justification and sanctification (Romans 3:25; 5:9; 1 Peter 1:2, 18, 19; Ephesians
1:7; 2:13), one should conclude also that these other aspects of the saving work of
Christ (described in terms of forgiveness, etc.) were accomplished by Christ's
death and resurrection including his physical death.
Conclusion
Thieme's teaching that the spiritual death of Christ alone was sufficient to
accomplish expiation and his interpretation of the term, blood of Christ is
untenable.

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It became a political issue when DTS started seeking funds from fundamentalist organizations, and DTS needed to distance themselves from this teaching which was unpopular with fundamentalists.

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Truthtesty
Wow can you believe this? I made a mistake. I did not put quotes around this in the previous post.

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It became a political issue when DTS started seeking funds from fundamentalist organizations, and DTS needed to distance themselves from this teaching which was unpopular with fundamentalists.

Prove this. hearsay until proven.


Truthtesty

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I realize that. But I wish to take the wind out of his sails because his approach and attitude needs to be toned down. His sense of overconfidence needs balancing. His attacks need to be shown from what kind of person he is.

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Well... let's get to the truth of the matter.

How did he attack your family?

Keeping an open mind... GeneZ

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"I wish to take the wind out of his sails because his approach and attitude needs to be toned down. His sense of overconfidence needs balancing.