HenryL, I'm sorry you spent so much time with a Bible under your arm you obviously never learned. If a teacher of physics has a physics textbook and then in class he tells you that much of what's in the textbook needs correction, you STILL use the textbook to see what those differences are.

And especially, with translations, you must look at the original alongside, to see WHY there are differences. That is, if you care at all what the text really SAID in the original.

So how is it, that I learned to read and write Greek and Hebrew from being under Thieme and you did not? By the end of the four years I was writing notes in Greek during the Revelation exegesis, simply from watching him on the board -- AND THEN STUDYING MORE when I got home. After Revelation I went back on tapes again, as noted earlier. The exegesis proves itself in BibleWorks, rather standard stuff, easily provable.

Translation errors in the Bible are very silly, for the most part. Don't need Thieme to prove what they are. But I got what I needed to know to read Bible in the original-language texts, from studying Thieme's Bible classes -- which after all was the PURPOSE of telling us all that geeky stuff which YOU say didn't help your understanding at all and of course is wrong -- how can you know, if you didn't learn it?

Yeah, and scholars still wonder why they can't find the direct quote in James 4:5 because they forget that some scribe capitalized pros -- because they forgot pros takes the accusative of hostility. Both of those things, you learn in 1st-year seminary. Thieme taught them too, when exegeting the verse. But of course, he must be wrong, for YOU didn't learn anything! LOLOL!

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I was wondering if brainout, Ephesians, and Genez, would like to explain Thieme's teachings about "A wife is obligated(by scripture) to do anything, AND THAT MEANS ABSOLUTELY ANYTHING GOES, that her husand wants from her in the bedroom" How's that for Thieme's emotional disturbance? Would you like to explain?

This is EXACTLY what Thieme taught on this subject. I remember. I was there. I heard the women gasp around me. I heard what Thieme said but did not really realize the implications (I was young) of what he said until I heard the women's gasps.

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Explain what? That was not what he taught. Why not get some tapes on his several marriage series. Get some first hand info for once? You keep throwing out malicious hearsay.

It won't cost you a cent. And, you will see for yourself how foolish you sound to those who do know his teachings. I think that's what you need. To hear him for yourself. Who ever heard of accusing someone with only second hand smoke?

THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT THIEME TAUGHT.

Truthtesty

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No one yet has shown me the verse or verses that Thieme claims 1 right pastor has sole authority over his own congregation. Thieme teaching just that identifies Thieme\Berachah as a cult.

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That was not how it was. The Pastor of the church is the sole authority on what was to be taught. Elected Deacons were the administration authority. Thieme could be voted out at any time.

Yes it was how it was. The Deacons were gutless cowards and allowed Thieme's abuse.

Per Dr. Wall:
Thieme was called to the pastorate in May, 1950. His first Sunday may have been a preview of what was to come. Thieme met with the Board of Deacons at the close of his first morning service and demanded their immediate resignation with the threat of his resignation if his demand was not met. The dumbfounded deacons acceded to Thieme's demand, and the pastor became the dominant leader who brooked no challenge to his authority from that time forward.

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If you have recourse to Thayer's or Bauer Danker lexicons -- two of the most respected Greek lexicons in the field among pastors worldwide -- you can look up "haphe", a witty term Paul uses for "pastor", in Eph4:11-16, esp. v.16. If you look up the term in the lexicons, you learn that a "haphe" is used in Greek in both the biological and the construction sense. So the "haphe" joins together BY INSTRUCTION (clever Greek verbs sumbibazw and sunarmologew in the same verse), usually truncated in translation as "knitted and held". But again, the lexicons (particularly Bauer, Danker) show you WHAT KIND of "knitted" (sumbibazw) and WHAT KIND of "held" (sunarmologew) is meant.

This is very common knowledge, what depends on a 'joint' in the body or construction. The "right" comes from WHICH 'joint' it is. For example, my arm 'joints' are right for my arm. My arm cannot be part of my body, apart from those joints. Same for the Body of Christ.

Again, this is very common knowledge, and if you look up in the lexicons you'll find references to related verses and to theologians you can respect on the interpretation of Eph4:16.

Finding a teacher 'right' for you is an instinctive quest. Whether rabbi, imam, pastor or guru, seeking a teacher 'right' for you is something people have long known about and done, since the idea of "God" first hit our heads.

So it's not something some one pastor invented. Again, Thieme did NOT write Bible, he just repeats what it says and does the exegesis.

If you have BibleWorks software (standard for pastors, I bought mine at a seminary), you already have the above lexicons in it, and a good many more independent study materials -- so you can independently confirm what's said here.

This person needs to explain specifically how [b:cd4a221809]1 right pastor has sole authority over his own congregation.[/b:cd4a221809] So far this is not proof. This person might take it under advisement, that speaking in simple terms so everyone from young to the old, and educated to the uneducated can understand.

I a have a low genius IQ. I really am sick and tired of Thiemites trying to act like they are so intelligent and so beyond everyone else's understanding. It's boring, sickening, and if you were trying to evangelize a non-believer it doesn't work. It's a turn off that veils over any good, that you might have to offer.


Truthtesty

Testy -

if it's any consolation, my IQ is not particularly that high. I don't get anything without intense study. I can't debate my way out of a paper bag. I gotta go slow, and sometimes with either Thieme, or scholastic subjects I literally have a study method where I have to sit down with study materials to my left and blank sheets of inkjet printer paper to my right and recopy notes into my own thoughts and mentally murder myself to get things through the fog of my head. I'm being serious about this.

But I understand completely what brainout is saying after spending just a little time working on it. The beauty of it is 1 Corinthians 2: 10-13 is always available (if we want it) - the Spirit teaching, even when our human brains just don't seem to be firing on all cylinders. Thank God for His power!

HENRYL,

Thank you again. You have expressed succinctly what I am not able to express. I don't have any theological training. I'm just of average intelligence. All I know is what the Spirit is telling me.

When I left Berachah, I was probably quite near to becoming a sociopath. I had been taught all my life that it was a sin to feel guilty. So I somehow managed to stop feeling altogether.

God has been so good to me. I may not be a genius, but God loves me, and He has been by my side during this entire journey. Back in the day, at Berachah, so many times I prayed to God, begging Him to "Please, help me believe this (fill-in-the-blank-Thieme dogma of the day)". I didn't want to reject the truth. I didn't want to get "scar tissue on my soul". I still don't want to reject the truth. God knows this. He is faithful to anyone who who seeks Him. He led me away from Berachah and into a joyous and intimate relationship with HIM!

Do I know everything I need to know about God and His word? No. I'm certain I won't on this side of heaven. But I keep studying, on my own and under pastors and various theologians. And God faithfully leads me along. Most importantly, my love for God and for others is growing. I'm enjoying the journey.

So thanks again for your willingness to state what I am unable to adequately articulate.

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But of course, he must be wrong, for YOU didn't learn anything! LOLOL!

This is just a cold callous statement. It shows your true nature.

Truthtesty

Your arm joint has dominance over your arm. When it hurts, your whole arm hurts; only to the extent your arm joints have CAPACITY, can you move your arm. Just ask anyone who has arthritis. Same even more, for a hand or other part of the body where there are more joints. So if your arm is not connected AT THE JOINT, you have no arm. That's pretty dominating.

That's the analogy [b:aa793b633e]Paul[/b:aa793b633e] is making in Eph4:16. Paul's word "haphe" chosen UNDER the Holy Spirit. Of course, Paul was pretty strict in setting policy and telling Timothy he had absolute WORD-TEACHING authority over his congregation.

Um, I believe Paul lived 2000 years before any of us. Including, Thieme.

Notice how Paul doesn't tell Timothy to get involved in his congregations' lives, but instead to teach the Word. Paul admonished Timothy to not permit people to dispute him. All this is plain even in translation, so no Greek-geek stuff need be explained.

So it's not a cult. Not a cult to be CEO and set the rules of the organization.

Is a cult, if the rule-setter sets rules OUTSIDE the organization (i.e., the essential qualities of rrmoderator's post on cults earlier). Authority is limited to its own sphere.

Yeah, it is simple. Don't need a high IQ. Do need to validate the meaning from Bible, and Bible wasn't written in English, so must validate from the ACTUAL WORDS used. Don't need a high IQ to do that, either. Only need 1Jn1:9 and the desire to LEARN the Words. Holy Spirit enables it to happen.

And of course, anyone is free to quit the organization. Of course, those who quit even a secular job are likely to think ill of the organization they left.

So for those of you who left, I'm happy for you; you want a pastor who talks nicely to you your way, [b:aa793b633e]and therefore that's the right pastor for you, someone you WANT to hear.[/b:aa793b633e] Obviously you gained no benefit from your tenure under Thieme, for he was NOT the pastor you wanted to hear.

But that doesn't mean no one benefits, who listens to him. So please stop persecuting those of us who want to listen to him. We don't ask you to get under him, you keep badgering us to get AWAY from him.

We step in to correct the false statements made about what he actually says. It's all on tape, you know. So the statements CAN be corroborated out from his own mouth, right or wrong. Frankly, I'm tired of stepping in to correct the false statements, since ANYONE can get live recordings of what he did say, for free. So I might not post here again for awhile. Gotta think about it: for every five minutes I must spend here typing, I could be studying Bible. Latter sounds better.

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Here is a good working definition for a destructive cult as defined by a doctor that once taught at Harvard Medical School.

See [www.culteducation.com]

"Certain psychological themes which recur in these various historical contexts also arise in the study of cults. Cults can be identified by three characteristics:

1. a charismatic leader who increasingly becomes an object of worship as the general principles that may have originally sustained the group lose their power

So? Everyone who is charismatic is a cult? Like any pastor doing his job well, he had his admirers. All good pastors do. But there were a good number who listened for the knowledge, and at the same time could not stand him personally. They came for the knowledge. Not the man. I was one of them to an extent.

For he was a military type in every way. He was authoritative and took no nonsense. Anyone who served in the military recognized this immediately. Those who wanted your typically sweet pastor were not happy there.

He remarked many a time as to why God picked him to have the gift to teach. For he openly admitted that his personality was not what the typical American church was accustomed to. This is where those who complain think he was abusive. And, I can see why. Luther was [b:f15340427f]the exact same way[/b:f15340427f], and even more so. I have read a volume of his biography, and he and Thieme are soul twins in many ways. Many.

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2. a process I call coercive persuasion or thought reform;

Just the opposite took place. He always guarded the privacy of everyone so no one would bully them to conform. Parents who forced their children to listen was not his teaching.

He removed gossips when found. For they destroyed ones right to privacy. They did not even have anyone sign a membership list. It was never asked. He stressed that anyone who wished to be was to remain anonymous if they so desired as they sat in the pews. That everyone should honor each others privacy if they choose to be shy and quite types.

Yet, he was a powerful personality and would not tolerate what is commonly found in many churches. No shouting out during his message, for he was teaching more or less on a seminary class level, than your typical devotional church.

He often times stressed that he was NOT the right pastor for everyone who was listening to him. And, that they should seek elsewhere where they can be happy. Yet, he was always a military type in his approach during the years of the hippy revolution. I still think he was giving the anti-authority types, authority right in their face. For in his early years and latter years, he was much more mellow and not that way. He was highly patriotic and despised all the anti-American sentiment that was coming in vogue. He reacted to it.....

Yet, he taught the word exegetically, and with great skill. Again, he was recommended to me by a professor of Ancient languages - Harvard. Professor Ashby disagreed with Thieme on several issues (as well as I do). Yet, Professor Ashby recommended Thieme to me.

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3. economic, sexual, and other exploitation of group members by the leader and the ruling coterie.

Never happened! Expoitation? How? And? Financial? He did not even charge for his tapes and books. Here is the financial policy.

There is no charge for any material from R. B. Thieme, Jr., Bible Ministries. Anyone who desires Bible teaching can receive our books and recordings without obligation. God provides Bible doctrine. We wish to reflect His grace.

R. B. Thieme, Jr., Bible Ministries is a grace ministry and operates entirely on voluntary contributions. There is no price list for books or recordings. No money is requested. When gratitude for the Word of God motivates a believer to give, he has the privilege of contributing to the dissemination of Bible doctrine.[/size:f15340427f]

This man was very close personal friends with Barry Goldwater. Chuck Swindoll was accepted at DTS on recommendation of Robert Thieme. He also had Hal Lindsey accepted on recommendation.

The problem he faced with DTS became political. For, he remained true to the ideals of Lewis Sperry Chafer who he studied under, and was one of his prized students. DTS was changing, and Thieme disproved openly.

In Christ, GeneZ

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I was wondering if brainout, Ephesians, and Genez, would like to explain Thieme's teachings about "A wife is obligated(by scripture) to do anything, AND THAT MEANS ABSOLUTELY ANYTHING GOES, that her husand wants from her in the bedroom" How's that for Thieme's emotional disturbance? Would you like to explain?

This is EXACTLY what Thieme taught on this subject. I remember. I was there. I heard the women gasp around me. I heard what Thieme said but did not really realize the implications (I was young) of what he said until I heard the women's gasps.

You were young? Get the tapes, then. He said only what the two [b:9e0615fc54]consented to [/b:9e0615fc54]mutually, goes.

For the marriage bed is undefiled.

The women gasped for various reasons. But he NEVER taught, that what the man says the woman must do. Matter of fact he put down that type of man numerousl times. Its on tape. What you think you heard is wrong. I have heard him teach on this various times. Which goes to show. Its good that its all on tape.

I had the same type of thing happen to me. I was asked to teach a local group on certain issues. Then I saw the minutes that were taken a week later. I had to call the person the minutes were submitted to, and explain that what the minutes say I said, is not what I said.

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Explain what? That was not what he taught. Why not get some tapes on his several marriage series. Get some first hand info for once? You keep throwing out malicious hearsay.

It won't cost you a cent. And, you will see for yourself how foolish you sound to those who do know his teachings. I think that's what you need. To hear him for yourself. Who ever heard of accusing someone with only second hand smoke?

THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT THIEME TAUGHT.

Series and lesson number, please.

I have been listening to him for over twenty five years. I have heard him cover this subject more than once. What you say totally contradicts all he has ever taught. He taught that the husband is never to bully the wife. That husbands that do are idiots. (my wording)

What you say leads me to believe that you had some kind of mental block when hearing him. For everything he ever said is on tape. Both the good and the mistakes. If you can produce this message? Then you can speak with authority. Until then? I will assume that he either said what he did not intend to... or the women who gasped were uptight about sex.

Everything he ever taught is on tape. Even the errors he made. And, the corrections that followed after.

I once asked if I could copy tapes for distribution. I was told I could. But only under one condition. That I did not edit the tapes in anyway. Nor, sold them for a price.

He made mistakes over the years which he later corrected. Yet, the messages with the mistakes have not been changed.

In Christ, GeneZ