Hi, brainout, and welcome to the forum. From your username, I’m assuming you’re the author of the “rebound” article posted at [
www.geocities.com], or you’re at least associated with the website in some way. (Please correct me if I’m wrong.) Your entire article is full of the same kind of empty assumptions and speculations, and meaningless technical terms, that I’ve already heard from ephesians, Galiban, and many other Thieme followers and pastors. You go to great lengths to try to reword passages to suit your own taste, and you love your fancy technical terms, as most Thieme followers do. But after all your efforts, and no matter how much you “correct” the translation, you still can’t make the Bible say, “Confess your sins to be filled with the Spirit.” You still have not provided the answers to any of the questions I have posed to ephesians and Galiban. (If you haven’t read my posts already, I’ll be happy to repeat my questions for you.)
[i:cfabcaa1fd][b:cfabcaa1fd]1. "Divine Dynasphere" as the Power Structure for the spiritual life, thus accounting for the stress on MECHANICS of thought-skill training. [/b:cfabcaa1fd]That's just a fancy term from the Greek for the Filling Ministry of the Spirit, 1Jn1:9, John 4:23-24, Eph 5:18, John 14:26, 1Cor2, Eph4:23, Eph4:11-16, 1Thess 5:19 (in context), all of James (especially his sarcasm in Jas 2:22, 26, lol), etc. In short, it's Spirit's Filling, Spirit's Power to enable one to perceive and live on Bible.[/i:cfabcaa1fd] [emphasis yours]
Much like Galiban, you like to make statements followed by a string of “prooftexts,” but you do nothing to show that those scriptures actually support your statement. I have already challenged ephesians and Galiban repeatedly to demonstrate how these scriptures support “rebound,” and how Eph 4, Eph 5, 1 Thess 5, etc., can be connected to 1 John 1:9. And none of you have been able to answer me.
You insist on building a bridge between 1 John 1:9 and Eph 5:18. But you refuse to acknowledge any connection between 1 John 1:9 and other scriptures that actually talk about confession of sins, forgiveness of sins, and cleansing from unrighteousness. You insist on using Eph 5:18 to determine the meaning of 1 John 1:9, and you refuse to use scriptures where the same principles are actually found. Why? Why build a bridge from 1 John 1:9 to Eph 5:18, but not to other scriptures that actually deal with the same principles?
Going back to the Rebound Formula...
[u:cfabcaa1fd][b:cfabcaa1fd]You must be filled with the Spirit.[/b:cfabcaa1fd][/u:cfabcaa1fd]
Eph 5:18 [i:cfabcaa1fd]And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit.[/i:cfabcaa1fd]
[u:cfabcaa1fd][b:cfabcaa1fd]How?[/b:cfabcaa1fd][/u:cfabcaa1fd]
1Jo 1:9 [i:cfabcaa1fd]If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.[/i:cfabcaa1fd]
Why not insert any other scripture under [b:cfabcaa1fd]How?[/b:cfabcaa1fd] that strikes our fancy? (Since we’re not accountable to show any kind of relevance whatsoever.) How about Rom 16:16?
[u:cfabcaa1fd][b:cfabcaa1fd]You must be filled with the Spirit.[/b:cfabcaa1fd][/u:cfabcaa1fd]
Eph 5:18 [i:cfabcaa1fd]And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit.[/i:cfabcaa1fd]
[u:cfabcaa1fd][b:cfabcaa1fd]How?[/b:cfabcaa1fd][/u:cfabcaa1fd]
Rom 16:16 [i:cfabcaa1fd]Salute one another with an holy kiss. The churches of Christ salute you.[/i:cfabcaa1fd]
So now we have to kiss each other to get filled with the Spirit. And I have just as much reason for inserting Rom 16:16 as you do for inserting 1 John 1:9. There is no more relevance between Eph 5:18 and 1 John 1:9 than there is between Eph 5:18 and Rom 16:16. This is what happens when we start arbitrarily connecting one verse to another without showing that they are even relevant to each other. We can now make the Bible say anything we want.
One of the passages you emphasized the most in your webpage was 2 Peter 1, so I’ll start there:
[u:cfabcaa1fd][b:cfabcaa1fd]2 Peter 1[/b:cfabcaa1fd][/u:cfabcaa1fd]
[b:cfabcaa1fd]1 [/b:cfabcaa1fd]Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
[b:cfabcaa1fd]2 [/b:cfabcaa1fd]Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,
[b:cfabcaa1fd]3 [/b:cfabcaa1fd]According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
[b:cfabcaa1fd]4 [/b:cfabcaa1fd]Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
[b:cfabcaa1fd]5 [/b:cfabcaa1fd]And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your [u:cfabcaa1fd]faith[/u:cfabcaa1fd] [u:cfabcaa1fd]virtue[/u:cfabcaa1fd]; and to virtue [u:cfabcaa1fd]knowledge[/u:cfabcaa1fd];
[b:cfabcaa1fd]6 [/b:cfabcaa1fd]And to knowledge [u:cfabcaa1fd]temperance[/u:cfabcaa1fd]; and to temperance [u:cfabcaa1fd]patience[/u:cfabcaa1fd]; and to patience [u:cfabcaa1fd]godliness[/u:cfabcaa1fd];
[b:cfabcaa1fd]7 [/b:cfabcaa1fd]And to godliness [u:cfabcaa1fd]brotherly kindness[/u:cfabcaa1fd]; and to brotherly kindness [u:cfabcaa1fd]charity[/u:cfabcaa1fd].
[b:cfabcaa1fd]8 [/b:cfabcaa1fd]For if [u:cfabcaa1fd][b:cfabcaa1fd]these things[/b:cfabcaa1fd][/u:cfabcaa1fd] be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
[b:cfabcaa1fd]9 [/b:cfabcaa1fd]But he that lacketh [u:cfabcaa1fd][b:cfabcaa1fd]these things[/b:cfabcaa1fd][/u:cfabcaa1fd] is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
[b:cfabcaa1fd]10 [/b:cfabcaa1fd]Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
[b:cfabcaa1fd]11 [/b:cfabcaa1fd]For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
[b:cfabcaa1fd]12 [/b:cfabcaa1fd]Wherefore I will not be negligent to put you always [b:cfabcaa1fd]in remembrance of [u:cfabcaa1fd]these things[/u:cfabcaa1fd][/b:cfabcaa1fd], though ye know them, and be established in the present truth.
“These things” are diligence, faith, virtue, knowledge, temperance (self-control/self-discipline), godliness, kindness, and charity (Christian love). “These things” do not include “rebound.” There is not the slightest hint here of confessing sins to instantly recover fellowship or the filling of the Spirit. Whoever lacks [i:cfabcaa1fd]these things [/i:cfabcaa1fd]is blind; it is not whoever lacks “rebound.” Peter will always remind the saints of [i:cfabcaa1fd]these things[/i:cfabcaa1fd]; he never once reminds them to name and cite their sins to instantly recover fellowship or the filling of the Spirit. In fact, all the apostles remind the saints to pursue these spiritual qualities; and none of them ever remind the saints to confess their sins to be filled with the Spirit. You can play your Greek Game to your heart’s content; you can ramble on in your technical speculations; and no matter how you reword these verses with your so-called “corrected” translations, you still cannot make this passage say, “Confess your sins to be filled with the Spirit.”
[i:cfabcaa1fd]Peter [b:cfabcaa1fd]deftly [/b:cfabcaa1fd]warns all this, in 2Pet1:9; he uses [b:cfabcaa1fd]deft [/b:cfabcaa1fd]syntax to illustrate what happens if you forget to name sins to God; he [b:cfabcaa1fd]allusively [/b:cfabcaa1fd]reminds them of Paul's Phili3:8, and then Zephaniah 1:17. [/i:cfabcaa1fd][emphasis mine]
Zephaniah 1:17 says, “And I will bring distress upon men, that they shall walk like blind men, because they have sinned against the LORD: and their blood shall be poured out as dust, and their flesh as the dung.” This is a warning to the idolaters who “worship the host of heaven upon the housetops” (v. 5). It is not directed at people who wouldn’t “rebound.” Zephaniah doesn’t mention a single word about naming sins to God to recover fellowship. Philippians 3:8 says, “Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ.” How can you possibly get “rebound” out of this? This is about as “allusive” as it gets. In fact, it’s so “allusive” that there isn’t a shred of scriptural support for it. Peter is trying to be “deft” here? He’s trying to “deftly” drop a hint that what he really means is “Confess your sins to be filled with the Spirit”? Why couldn’t he just simply say that? Why is he playing these games with us? Why can’t he just simply say what he means?
[i:cfabcaa1fd]So about 20 years after Peter, when the apostle John wrote 1Jn1:9, this Absolute "Filling" Requirement -- and its Royal Meaning -- [b:cfabcaa1fd]was so well-known, [u:cfabcaa1fd]he didn't have to use the term "Filling"[/u:cfabcaa1fd][/b:cfabcaa1fd]; he only had to remind the reader how ya got it, in 1Jn1:9: name your sins to God.[/i:cfabcaa1fd] [emphasis mine]
Come on, brainout, you can’t be serious. John is writing the perfect, holy, inspired Word of God, and he just figures “Why bother?” With such a crucial aspect of the spiritual life? How careless of John! This “absolute filling requirement” was “so well known”? Where? When? Where in the entire Bible did anyone know about an instant, absolute filling of the Spirit attained through confessing sins? And when Paul was writing Eph 5:18, rather than tell us that confessing sins was necessary for the filling of the Spirit (a very important point, don’t you think?), he just figures “Why bother?” How careless of Paul! What if the apostles had the same careless attitude in all their writing? Suppose that in Acts 16:31, Paul said to the Philippian jailer, [i:cfabcaa1fd]“Thou shalt be saved,” [/i:cfabcaa1fd]and neglected to tell him to [i:cfabcaa1fd]“Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ,” [/i:cfabcaa1fd]because he just figured “Why bother?” Face it, brainout—the absence of [u:cfabcaa1fd]any reference to the filling of the Spirit in 1 John 1:9[/u:cfabcaa1fd] and the absence of [u:cfabcaa1fd]any reference to confessing sins in Eph 5:18[/u:cfabcaa1fd] are devastating to your “rebound” doctrine.
The reality that you refuse to face is that there is not a single verse in the entire Bible that just simply tells us to confess our sins to be filled with the Spirit. This constant, non-stop confessing of all sins does not exist anywhere in the Bible, Old Testament or New. You Thieme followers claim to be the champions of grace, yet you impose an impossible legalistic burden on God’s people. As I thoroughly covered in my previous posts, we can never have any real confidence that we are still in fellowship with God as we pray, study, serve, etc. We are in imminent danger of having our Heavenly Father sever all communication with us every moment of every day. In your own words: [i:cfabcaa1fd]“So I must use 1Jn1:9 a bizillion times a day.”[/i:cfabcaa1fd] An impossible standard that our Lord Jesus Christ has never required of His people.
[i:cfabcaa1fd]Keeping up our Unfilled status, [b:cfabcaa1fd]we eventually get [u:cfabcaa1fd]capital punishment[/u:cfabcaa1fd][/b:cfabcaa1fd], 1Jn5:16. Upon which, we live with the Lord forever; but we're [b:cfabcaa1fd]"naked"[/b:cfabcaa1fd], never having developed in our Royal Role for eternity. So we get a low role. [b:cfabcaa1fd]Kinda like a [u:cfabcaa1fd]peasant[/u:cfabcaa1fd]. [/b:cfabcaa1fd][/i:cfabcaa1fd][emphasis mine]
It is still amazing to me how you Thieme followers can make statements like this, while promoting yourselves as the champions of grace and accusing others of legalism. God is going to kill anyone who doesn’t follow your “rebound” doctrine. The vast majority of Christians are dying terrible deaths of sorrow and misery because they dared to disagree with you. I’ve known quite a few other Christians from relatives, friends, church, etc., who have passed away or are facing death. And they’ve all faced it with peace and joy, looking forward to seeing their Lord and Savior face-to-face. And there are accounts of numerous Christians throughout history facing death with great courage and faith, who knew nothing of “rebound” or Thieme’s entire doctrinal system.
You have no right to use such pompous, condescending language regarding your own Christian brethren. You have no right to elevate yourselves as the “winners” and denigrate the rest of us as the “losers.” This is why you stubbornly cling to your pet doctrine of “rebound”—because without it, your whole elitist, cultish doctrinal system would crumble. You would have to admit that you weren’t the only Christians filled with the Spirit after all. You would have to admit that God is not killing off most of His people because they rejected your doctrine. You would have to admit that the rest of us are going to welcome the Lord’s return with great joy and receive our eternal inheritance, just like you will. You would have to admit that everything you’ve said about other Christians was arrogant and wrong.
Looking forward to your response, brainout...
Liberty
(the “naked peasant”)