I personally think the the recent debates on atheism and whether or not Christians are foolish for believing in God is a distraction against what we are here for. I do wonder if that distraction is done deliberately sometimes in order to cause factions. I'm all for people believing differently from me and I respect their right to do so. I just think that respect should be mutual. For all those who have been in Struthers I think we have had enough of the mindset of "if you don't see things my way you are clearly inferior to me and I will do my best to mock, ridicule and humiliate you."

Clive we get that you are an atheist and as such, have the view that believing in God is at best, futile. Of course I disagree with that viewpoint but that's fine. We are adults and we can disagree. But please stop all these attacks on others. I'm not quite sure what you think it will achieve. It's not going to turn us all into atheists in the same way as myself or others quoting bible verse after bible verse is going to make you want to become a Christian.

There is a place for discussions on God Vs Atheism etc if you want to go down that line (in fact there are plenty of places for that, both online and off) For years, the only information I could see online about Struthers (aside from their own website) was on atheist forums. I chose not to comments for the simple reason that I didn't want to get into long and pointless debates about whether God was real. I still don't.

I understand that some people on this forum are still a part of Struthers, many have left and I think that the majority of those who have left have gone on to serve God in other churches. Some have decided that due to their experience at the hands of Struthers, they never want to go to church again. As a Christian, that saddens me, but I can fully understand why some people make that choice. Some are now not sure if they ever really believed in the first place and after their experience of Struthers are not likely to want to go down that path any further anyway. Again I fin that sad, but understandable.

At the end of the day I think most people on this forum have had some form of shared experience and for the vast majority it was not a pleasant one. I really don't think making derogatory or inflammatory comments is helping anyone.

FilthyBackslider – welcome to the forum! We do pick some interesting names, don’t we! Great to have you joining the merry crew, and to hear of your experiences. It does seem that the great and the good at SMC have no interest at all in anyone other than the “shining examples” (and, in my view at least, the “shining examples” all turned out to be damp squibs!)

I wonder how many others sit in the pews feigning interest – some perhaps for 20 or 30 years. That does seem sad to me. If the leaders really had something to offer, they would say, “go anywhere in the world, do anything, experience anything you want, you will always come back here because we offer more than anywhere else.” No much evidence of that though, is there. Instead they say, “No, don’t set foot outside of the church – you may see something that is better and leave.” It doesn’t actually show any real confidence that they have something to offer.

Regarding the question of personal belief, people do form time to time share their personal views on religion here - it seems to me that is quite legitimate, especially in the context of how SMC has affected lives. If there are some people who think it gave them a good grounding, others who thought it was all horrendous but still wanted to be associated with Christianity and yet other who reached the conclusion that they could not accept Christianity (whether as a direct consequence or not) that it all interesting – it shows the kind of impact SMC is having. I don’t find it surprising that is a bit of a mixed bag.

As we mention these things, we should however remember that the forum is about SMC, not about our personal beliefs. For example, the main reason I sometimes quote Bible verses or make references to Christianity is not because of my personal beliefs, it is because that is what SMC says it believes. What I believe may be of some marginal interest, what the leaders believe and whether their beliefs and actions stand up to their own standards is central to the debate.

Hi all

It is true that 'knowledge is power' and while we are capable of learning new things and gaining new understanding, we have not reached 100% brain capacity. What is most interesting to me is that education and gaining knowledge and understanding, beyond the school curriculum and SMC teachings, was never really a part of what SMC taught. In fact, when I attended the church, the most important thing we were taught was that the leaders knew everything that needed to be known and they would provide all the knowledge and beliefs needed for the congregation. Of course, when I started to question and gain knowledge for myself, I discovered that this was very far from the truth.

In SMC, questioning and gaining knowledge and understanding for yourself is actively discouraged because people who question and seek deeper understanding for themselves are seen as going against God and being sinful. It's neither here nor there what my personal beliefs are but it's important for everyone to seek out their own understanding and knowledge and not just listen to a few misguided, self aggrandizing idiots who try to stifle our thirst for knowledge because they know that, under close scrutiny, what they are teaching just doesn't hold any substance and, when people start to realise this, the leaders lose control over them.

Rensil posted some time ago about her experiences of being 'groomed' for leadership and being taught how to avoid the questions from young people who might seek a better understanding for themselves.

The fact that SMC-goers are expected to live their lives inside the church, 7 days a week, is strictly to keep the congregation away from outside influences where they might actually learn that SMC leaders are a lot less knowledgeable than they claim to be. Yes, 'knowledge is power', and this is why there is no great emphasis on gaining knowledge and understanding coming from the mouths of SMC leaders. To them knowledge and understanding would lead to the destruction of their cosy wee clique. But you can't stop people's inquisitive minds forever although they try to do this by claiming that you're being sinful or you're demon possessed and in need of deliverance. But their kind of deliverance is deliverance into ignorance and conformity, thus keeping control over the people and their salaries.

Funnily enough, when I read my Bible (which isn't very often now) I find that God seems to me to be an advocate of learning and gaining knowledge and understanding. We read about Samuel, King David and others - even Jesus - spending many hours learning and reading and being taught many things - not just the 'holy' stuff either, but about life and nature and growing into adulthood. They also kept learning for many years beyond what we would consider the normal schooling of youth.

Funny that SMC steer clear of advocating knowledge and understanding, even for the kids in Cedars. Someone posted a while ago about the I-pads and how they felt that this must go against SMC teachings because the kids would be able to use the I-pads to connect to 'outside' influences. However, if you watch the video of one of the Jewell boys expounding on the I-pads, at an American conference, you will have an 'Ah-Ha' moment because he tells the conference just how Cedars restricts what can be viewed or downloaded onto the I-pads the children use and that all the I-pads are controlled centrally; and if a child manages to get to information that SMC don't want them to have access to, this comes to the attention of the controller (the young Mr. Jewell) and the I-pad is swiftly removed and re-calibrated and the child is reprimanded for using the I-pad in the wrong way. So SMC can still control what the kids are being allowed to learn from the technology in the same way they control what the members in the church learn from the Word of God. It's a kind of extreme 'Parental control'.

To me, knowledge and understanding is extremely important and I hope to keep learning and gaining knowledge and drawing my own conclusions until my brain is so weak and feeble that I begin to forget more than I remember. Hopefully not for a long time yet though - although I have to admit that remembering names and phone numbers is increasingly difficult these days! :-)

As always, biiiiiiig love and huge hugggggggs to all
God Bless xxxx

Cbarb hi,
I can't believe they are actually admitting this information control. But are they just "protecting" kids from inappropriate content or attention? If so, good practice Cedars.
What about when a kid wants to phone home at a random time? I do know that unregistered and unsynced machines (and even some newer phones..) will not connect.
Control, N. Korea-style.
Does anyone have any info on how this may break some kind of law. They are admitting they can and do control what goes in. Bang! Got them there. But we surely have to entertain the notion that this could be and most likely is a way of controlling what goes out also.
All I know is that pupils' own phones have to be registered with ITGuy Spiers. I really, really question why?

Hi Ifellaway

Yes, I agree that some form of control has to be exerted over technology used in schools to protect kids, however, should that go as far as being able to read their personal emails or text messages? I don't know, I'm not sure what the law is at the moment when it comes to kids' access to email and texting while on school property. Perhaps some of the teachers or social workers on the forum might be able to shed light on that one.

I suppose, to a certain extent you could draw a parallel with companies who restrict internet access for employees while they are in the workplace and there are some companies who do not allow personal email communication during work hours either. When it comes to kids though, obviously those controls would need to be a bit tighter to ensure kids don't get access to inappropriate material, while in school, and this is a good thing. However, given that we know SMC leaders are manipulative and controlling how much control is TOO MUCH control?

Even before technology was so advanced, when I attended the church, the level of control exerted on the young people was beyond the normal protective type of control and actually made us extremely naïve young adults facing a world we had been closeted from for so long and were totally ill-equipped for. In my case, this led to childlike acceptance of everything anyone older than me said and all through my life I have been totally unable to stand up for myself in any situation. This has led to bullying in school becoming bullying in the workplace and bullying in my personal relationships which I have been unable to avoid because I was never taught to stand up for my own rights but only to accept and respect anyone older than myself - even when I have known I wasn't deserving of such treatment.

I was unable to talk about the abuse I suffered as a small child because I was taught to believe that anything bad which happened to me was because I had displeased God and was ultimately possessed by demons and in need of deliverance. I therefore went through life believing I was utterly damned for eternity and I learned just to bottle everything up and bear the burden of guilt for 'my sins' until I finally plucked up the courage to 'spill the beans' to my parents only a few years ago. Ultimately too late to make a difference to the way my life has been all the intervening years and I have certainly grown up in a very different way from how I would want my own kids to grow up. And I was not the only child who suffered such abuse and kept quiet about it as a result of the SMC upbringing, I have spoken to others who also suffered such abuse and have still not told their parents or anyone else about the abuse. Strangely enough, these others have had similar bad experiences in life that I have gone through and we have each struggled, in our own ways, to come to terms with the abuse and try to re-build broken lives.

I suppose it's quite hard to draw the line between what are normal protective measures to shield children, and what are controlling measures to keep them 'under the thumb' and make them into conformists who have no mind of their own.

I hasten to add though, that the abuse I suffered was not at the hands of any SMC member but a respected member of the community none the less. However, I do believe that if I could have spoken about it much sooner, and while still a child, I could have been instrumental in ending the abuse of so many young girls at the hands of the man in question. Who, I believe, continued to abuse young girls (including his own family) for many years after I moved out of the area - I believe he is probably dead now, although I don't know about that but he must have abused many hundreds of young girls during the course of his life. I still feel guilty that I was unable to talk about it at the time and his abuse was allowed to go un-checked for so many years.

It's one thing to try to protect kids from harm but it's another thing entirely to make them feel like it's their fault if something bad does happen to them. Would kids who are brought up in SMC today feel free to talk about sexual abuse, if it happened to them? I don't know but I do know that we were not able to talk about what happened to us because we all felt that we were somehow to blame for the abuse in the first place and we worried about being taken to Miss Taylor to have our demons exorcised and have the whole congregation told just how cursed and black our hearts must be to have allowed such things to happen to us. I was only 7 when the abuse began and I was 11 when we finally moved out of the area and the abuse stopped. I wouldn't wish that on any young person in life and have always made it clear to my own children that they can talk to me about absolutely anything without fear of reprisals or punishment - because it was this fear that kept my mouth shut for so many years and plagued my nights with so many nightmares - even into late adulthood. Although, not so bad now, I still have nightmares at aged 50 and at times I feel like just plucking my brain right out of my head for some peace - sometimes I have banged my head against walls until I bleed in order to have something else to think about in the quiet of the night and keep myself from falling asleep again until the thoughts and recollections disappear back into their wee black hole for another spell. But they are never truly GONE, they just sleep for a bit until the next time I get totally stressed out by daily life and too many things go wrong at once - that's when I'm weak and the thoughts come creeping back in again.

I can pray for strength and sometimes that helps but the reality of my young life is still there, it can't be whitewashed or made to disappear completely because it happened and there is nothing which will ever remove the stains completely. Mostly, I've just learned to live with it and I function like any other normal person but I'm saddened to think that young people brought up in such controlling circumstances as the SMC-Way, will not be able to talk about such things just as we were unable to talk about them when we were young. That just isn't healthy - kids need to know that these things can happen and they need to know that they have someone they can talk to if it happens to them - and, more importantly, that they are NOT to blame for such things happening to them. My overwhelming belief was that God had either abandoned me or just didn't exist anyway. I still have to wonder, if God is so loving, why does he allow such things to happen to young innocent children? That's a dilemma is it not? I try to see if there was some lesson to be learned from it but, for the life of me, I just can't find any reason at all why God (who loves all little children) would sit back and do nothing while such things happen - can anyone enlighten me?

So just how much control becomes TOO MUCH control when it comes to children and young people? I can talk now about the past but I kept it bottled up for nearly 40 years!!

As always biiiiig love and huge hugggggggs to all
God Bless xxx

I am in agreement with what Covlass has posted (July 7th above) and it is actually similar to what I was going to post myself, but haven't had time to, then I came on here and read her post. I agree that the debates on whether God exists or not are indeed a distraction from the main purpose of this Forum thread and serve little purpose. There are other Forums and sites where atheism can be and is debated but I don't think that is or should be the purpose of this one. I also feel all this type of debate will just make us a laughing-stock in the eyes of SMC leaders and members and it may hinder some who are wanting to leave but scared to and who are looking for answers to help them.

This Forum thread is about the beliefs and practices of Struthers Memorial Church and comes under the sub-group of Destructive Churches. I re-read the rules of the Rick Ross Forum and they say that the Forum is not to be used for arguing about religious viewpoints or proselytising. I also think it isn't a place for posting what Covlass describes as derogatory comments. In my view, It is a place for people to post about their experiences of being in this church and how it has affected their lives. Sharing these often traumatic experiences will help, and has already helped, many other people, either those who have left or those who have thought about leaving. We must keep that in mind.

Re the control of iPad useage, if it is to stop kids accessing inappropriate content of a sexual nature, then there isn't anything wrong with that. I think most schools have similar controls in place when pupils are using laptop or other computers, or to limit constant use of mobile phones at school, don't they? Or do they? Maybe someone can tell us.

Our posts have appeared on here at the same time, Cbarb, so I hadn't read yours before I posted mine. In case you thought I'd ignored yours. I am going to read it through thoroughly now, OK?!

Cbarb, I'm utterly horrified. I wish I could enlighten you, it's just not doable. Unjustifiable and it's where forgiveness ends for me. Can you ever truly heal? I wish I could answer. However, you are here, helping. YOU. So despite everything, you're still an asset to humans. Regarding your personal journey throughout then and now, I can only say I'm glad I met you and take inspiration (more than I can say without the appearance of fawning and flattering..) from your compassion. That's about all I can say in public. And send a hug... is there a button for that? Well, it's sent anyway, using pure thought..
Rensil, I am totally sure you're spot on about today's tec problems in schools. My specific query is the legality of such control. I occasionally have to look after (on emergency basis only) teens from 13-18. Times have arisen where police, social work etc have had to legally deny them access to parental contact. You can imagine the tragic circumstances that make for such situations. So all "adults" concerned agree the teen must give up their mobile (all of them!). But it's like they are surgically connected to the wrist.
Actually, at certain ages, we are not legally allowed to remove phone access in this way. And now we have smartalec phones and pads etc to contend with. It's a nightmare, I tell you!
But when cops and socialwork have gone, I just read the house rules; one of which is that no mobiles or internet connectables are allowed into bedrooms at night. I don't take my phone or tab or pc to bed, because I know I'll never sleep. So I interpret the human right to a comfortable sleep as "trumping" the right to physically hold a phone. Besides, the phones are available, just downstairs on charge. :) Compromise..
My concern is that one guy, has control over all comms within a school. I bet there isn't a public payphone on school grounds. This, if true, is actually very significant. However, I trust that the good youngsters of Cedars have already circumnavigated that system of control. Teenagers always will. Still, I would like to know more about how much IT control is allowed by law, because I know I often get my hands legally tied.
Regards all, Ifellaway
Meant to say, Clive, I feel I owe you an apology. Reading my posts through, I was being unacceptably sarcastic and definitely could have answered better. I know you won't require it but anyway, sorry. I

Hi folks

Ifellaway, thanks for your supportive words. The reason I shared these personal experiences here was to point out that the level of control exerted by those 'in power' in SMC can lead to very harmful situations for children who are taught to respect all adults and do as they are told, without question, or face the wrath of God.

We talked before about abuse of children within SMC - I refer to incidents recounted by CovLass and supported by others regarding a child being dragged from a meeting and humiliated further by having to apologise to the 'esteemed' leader at the end of the service. However, the teaching of SMC can also lead to worse abuse outside of the church walls because the children are taught that they are capable of being demon possessed even when they are too young to fully understand what that means and the onus is put on the children to keep themselves 'clean' but also to respect all elders and do as they are told unquestioningly. The dilemma is - if I had disobeyed my abuser and run away to hide I would be incurring the wrath of God for disobeying my elders - even although I knew what was happening was wrong. To my young mind this gave me a two-edged sword - if I disobeyed the adult I incurred the wrath of God but if I obeyed him I still incurred the wrath of God because what I was doing was terribly wrong and meant I must be demon possessed.

Not once were we ever taught that it was OK to disobey an adult if we thought they were doing wrong. For a 7 year old, that's a hard burden to bear and even harder to come to terms with when your prayers seemingly go unheard. This, by the way, is why I believe that the power to change things lies within each of us and not in some big guy in the sky. When I refer to God, I am referring to the spirit of Grace and Love inside each of us and, when a lot of people come together in that spirit and focus their energies on a certain thing - such as healing for another human being - their collective spiritual energies can facilitate the action they are 'praying' for.

The standard answer from SMCers (and indeed most church-going people) regarding why God 'allows' certain things to happen - such as child abuse, wars etc. - is the old adage of 'Free Will'. However, children do not have the opportunity for free will when they are forced to attend church by parents, who believe they are doing the best for their kids but can be misguided by unscrupulous humans who set themselves up as being something 'special and to be revered'.

The adults still attending SMC do have free will and are just as capable as the rest of us of questioning and researching for themselves, although many seem to be very blinkered by SMC. Some, as has been pointed out before, have been in the church since birth and have been so brainwashed they know nothing else and don't even try to find out about the world outside because it's cosier just to stay ignorant and conform to the authority of the unscrupulous and power-hungry leaders. But what of the kids who are not given the choice to learn from the outside world because they are closeted 7 days a week inside the church walls, being bombarded with the rubbish being spouted from the platform. These little guys have no opportunity for help in situations of abuse because they are taught that THEY are the ones at fault if something bad happens. When you are continually being told that it's your own fault, or you're not holy enough, or you haven't prayed enough when something bad happens, or when you fall ill, it's no wonder that children will find it extremely difficult to talk to anyone regarding something like abuse (whether inside or outside of the church).

Let's face it, even the adults are scared to admit that they didn't receive the healing or spiritual gifts that the leaders said they were given, in case they are seen as being backslidden or unfaithful, or not holy enough for God. How much worse is it for children who are only just beginning to learn about life but are being taught that they could be possessed by demons at any moment? Small wonder that many of us kids, back in the day, suffered countless sleepless nights from nightmares - not about the boogey man under the bed - but about being possessed by demons and darkness and being rejected by a God who is supposed to love all little children (but only if they are being little angels and praying enough or being holy enough for the 'Loving', yet 'vengeful' God). It's worse than telling kids that Santa won't bring them any presents if they are naughty. Even worse still is the threat of having all their naughtiness (or sinfulness) exposed to the whole congregation from the pulpit.

Getting back to the incident of the child being forcibly removed from the meeting hall - this sort of thing happened fairly regularly when I attended the church too. Someone - sorry I can't remember who now - posted that a child was once removed for mimicking the preacher. So what? Kids do that sort of thing and it's because they are well bored by being forced to sit quietly and attentively for hours on end listening to a whole load of rubbish that they don't really understand anyway. The kids are then faced with DOUBLE punishment - first being castigated by the unscrupulous leaders who think themselves so important that people (even young children) should hang on their every word; and second, they are then punished also by parents who are stupid enough to believe the leaders of the church are more important than their own child's well-being.

There are teachers who post on this forum and I'm sure they will agree that kids will be naughty when they're bored - do these teachers then demand that the child's parents punish them? Of course not, they might send a letter home to the parents regarding consistent bad behaviour but most teachers will have their own - less harmful ways - of dealing with disruptive kids in their classrooms. The fact is that kids who attend SMC are usually the least disruptive in a classroom because they have been brought up to believe that all adults are to be respected and obeyed, without question, or they will face not just the wrath of the teacher or parents but much worse - the wrath of the leaders of the church: ergo the wrath of 'God'. I have seen parents take their children to the leaders because they felt that they were too naughty and must be in need of deliverance. In fact, one of these occasions was because a child had joined with friends to go scrumping for apples across some of the back-yards on a street in Greenock! The poor kid was more shaken by the 'deliverance' ministry than the smack received from their weak-minded parents.

Is this a healthy way to bring up young children? I don't think so - having been on receiving end of such hell-fire and damnation and demon possession rubbish myself.

For this reason, I have never forced my kids to attend church or Sunday School - they have done so on occasions, by their own choice, to accompany a friend who has asked them to come along for the day but I would never force them to believe anything without question and I encourage them to talk about what they have heard on the occasions they have attended church, so that we can discuss this and put what they have heard into context, in order to avoid them 'believing without question'. I encourage my kids to be inquisitive and question everything until they eventually draw their own conclusions as to what works for them. Actually, they're not 'kids' any more - they're young adults and, thankfully, are a lot more balanced and wise than I was at their age.


As always biiiiiiig love and huge hugggggs to all
God Bless xxxx

CBARB - I am so very sorry and shocked to read your recent sharing of your story of abuse that you went through in your youth. It does make one angry that your church at the time could not help you deal with it. If anything damns the SMC it is things like this. Just being plain uncaring - to such a point that victims are too fearful to share their trauma.

Quote
Ifellaway
Meant to say, Clive, I feel I owe you an apology. Reading my posts through, I was being unacceptably sarcastic and definitely could have answered better. I know you won't require it but anyway, sorry. I

Apology fully accepted Ifellaway.

To the others - I do realise of course that this forum/thread is about SMC and not a debate on theology. I do from time to time mention my atheism - but it is usually brought up in a light hearted off the cuff manner as an asides- "the only atheist in the village" etc. But what then seems to happen is that merely by me mentioning the word atheist - others here then feel they have to go on the defensive and "Correct" me. Often very poorly with something, so irritatingly banal I just cant help myself but to react to this !.

But did I ever actually write "there is no god" . "jesus didnt rise from the dead" anywhere here ? What often seems to happen is that as soon as one admits to ones atheism others immediately feel under attack, go on the defensive, even putt out suggestions or allusions to arrogance, snobbishness, pride, "know it all" - plus a form of "offence", you name it.

I may have alluded to the problem of suffering, for sure. And definitely discussed answered or non-answered prayer. But then so have many many other posters here - where non-answered prayer is a topic with regard to SMC.

And occasionally I may post something akin to the famous Porgy And Bess "It Aint Necessarily So" but we are talking of an unquestioning belief and trust in naked emperors here. So of course this is relevant. It is not coincidence that to my mind ( and the rest of my secular family members ) - the members of my family who are DEEP into SMC are also the MOST GULLIBLE, IGNORANT and least SCEPTICAL of my large family. These things ARE connected.

My posts are much more - unless someone wants to correct me- about the need to emphasise scepticism. Very occasionally that scepticism might be directed at interpretations of the bible or theology. But I'm far more concerned with scepticism concerning supernatural "anointings".

And Scepticism is something we can and should all exercise. Seriously folks. Turn on your television and ask yourselves - is it the kinds of believers who have the most fundamentalist, firm, literal interpretations of their texts and who follow their strong charismatic leaders to the ends of the earth - who are the problem these days ? or is it the kinds of believers who are more prepared to doubt, question their texts, be less sure about the true nature of god, how to get to heaven etc etc ?

Is it theological liberals who are the troublemakers or fundamentalists ? And which of these two better describes the SMC mindset ?

I would ask people to watch that STORM video again in its entirety to confirm my views are much much more about scepticism than atheism.

It does no harm to go to SNOPES or at least do a google to check facts before asserting something. I can think of no end of christian urban myths that I first heard of in xtian circles and in particular members of my family in the SMC - which keep going round and round simply because these kinds of people never think of actually checking facts.

Here is a common one :-

"meditation leads to demons - It will open your mind to evil spirits".

We have all heard this. Yet there is more evidence that meditation - the kind that doesn't require any religious belief- such as mindfullness - actually has a real and measurable beneficial effect on participants. More and more research keeps coming out about the positive effects of this kind of mindfullness meditation - and yet much of the evangelical world just keeps on issuing the scare stories about meditation leading to demon possession from the pulpit.

In actual fact there has been more research done on people, whether secular or buddhist monks and the like - regarding the positive effects of meditation - than any research concerning christian prayer, tongues and the like. And yet Pentecostals and other evangelicals just keep on spreading false fearmongering memes in their churches regarding meditation.

Of course what they often fear is that after getting benefits from a non-religous form of meditation they might then be tempted into checking out the religious stuff - whether buddhist or Indian guru based ( the latter does have its share of wacko cult leaders over the years of course ). But plenty in the west practice mindfullness meditation and suffer no ill side effects - whether demonic or otherwise !. - In fact so promising is this technique that educational bodies are now considering bringing in some of this to schools since it has been shown to have such clear beneficial effects on attentiveness, calmness ,
reduced antisocial behaviour and the like.

I even discovered recently that psychiatrists in this and other countries are starting to use this too. Such are the strong and measured effects.

Somehow I doubt if we will ever hear or read of Guru Diana Rutherford endorsing this !.



Edited 9 time(s). Last edit at 07/11/2013 02:45AM by Clive.