Re: The Zeitgeist Movement (TZM)
Posted by:
corboy
()
Date: March 03, 2011 09:16AM
"It's very cool to see how different societies have common tropes and themes, but that doesn't imply that these themes CAME from each other - at least not all the time. (And not without loads of data and evidence!)
' It is next to impossible most of the time to establish the connection many conmythispiracists (kon-myth-a-spiricists: my new title for mythicists who resort to this sort of rubbish) wish to establish. There are better ways, and certainly better explanations, for such tropes to exist in the New Testament. You only need one strong case of recycled tropes to show the Jesus of the Gospels isn't historical. And you only need one strong case of recycled tropes to show that those earlier tropes came from other Near Eastern cultures in antiquity. To go to the extremes of Acharya is not only pushing buttons, but begging for scholarship to look at one as amateurish.""
Finally (for this evening) lets look at Acharya S who is also part of the Zeitgeist Movement package
[www.google.com]
The quotation above is from an article on Rational Responders
[www.rationalresponders.com]
Problems with Acharya S: A Brief Review
Submitted by Rook_Hawkins on October 21, 2007 - 4:27am. Over the past few weeks I have been getting an increase if fanboys (literally) of Acharya S, who pour in from who knows where (perhaps the Raves and Shindigs are letting out earlier then usual?). Perhaps they mean well, but this is really what the Jesus Mythicist Campaign was meant to expose - the poor and sloppy scholarship of some of the mythicist defenders out there. Among those who would discredit the movement, I feel Acharaya S is a valid candidate who has been among other things sloppy.
Now, let me clarify by saying I think Acharya is a great woman, who seems to be genuine in her desires to expose the flaws of Jesus historicists. And she is definitely a person with a quality personality. But, scholarship is not a popularity contest, despite what Bart Ehrman thinks. Scholarship is based on foundations of scientific observation and inductive reasoning that seems to be missing from the works of Acharya S (although I have yet to read her new book, with a preface by Robert M. Price, whom I think very highly of), and worse yet, her fans seem to be trolling the interwebs with intent and purpose.
Don't get me wrong, I'm glad to see that her fans are out and about, goodness knows what would happened if they all remained in that room together for much longer, yet why must they all flock to my section of the message board? It is clear from their posts that they have only read her books, and seem to have avoided other more note worthy mythicists like the plague! Worse yet, many of the fans that have come to my website seem to have no rudimentary knowledge of antiquity, nor do they seem to have any grasp of the methodologies employed by modern scholars and historians who have to face a rigid peer review before they publish.
When two of her fans attempted to go head to head with me in my forum, I confronted them are some of their very glaring historical inadequacies. Here is a brief list of some of these errors:
1. Comparing Jesus to Krishna/Buddha
2. Claiming the Moses/Jesus stories are Midrash based on the Bhagavad Gita
3. Claiming that both Julius Caesar and Plato were both said to be born of virgins and sons of God
4. Claiming ALL Caesars were deified
Of course, these fanboys get their information from Acharya's work. Her book Sons of God certainly claims that Buddha and Krishna influenced in some way the stories of Jesus and Moses, that Plato and Caesar were born of virgins and were sons of God. I'm grouping problems 1 and 2 together to make for easier refutations of the claims put forth by these fanboys, and Acharya S.
First, before one can even claim that there were influences on early Christians/Jews by the Bhagavad Gita or the works of Buddha (life of Buddha?), several things must be established:
1.) Settlements. What evidence does one have of Jewish settlements in India? What archaeological finds have been presented for this? Example: We have inscriptions (on tomb stones and buildings) and dedications in Alexandria, Rome, Syria, and Cyrenaica of Jewish neighborhoods and businesses, synagogues and temples. Alexandria has the highest concentration of evidence of Jewish life, however outside the Ancient Near East, we have found settlements in Italy and Greece and that is really it. Please consult J.M.G. Barclay's, Jew's in the Mediterranean Diaspora: From Alexander to Trajan (1996).
2.) Holy Book Location. One must show evidence at one of these other Jewish locations, especially Alexandria where papyrus was found and made in great numbers (hence why we have so many manuscripts from Egypt), where the Gita has been found.
3.) Assimilation and Socio-Cultural Accommodation. One must present some level of sociological assimilation or acculturalization where the Jews have lost some of their cultural distinctiveness to the Hindu religion, or the following of Hindu religious practices, such that we see with Orpheus and Orphic traditions (i.e. Poems written in Hebrew to Orpheus, or mosaics in Jewish synagogues of Orpheus) - we should see poems or literature written of Krishna in Hebrew, or some sort of art or graffiti in Jewish living areas dedicated to Krishna. The opposite should also be seen as well: Those who follow Hinduism should have held in some regard the Jewish religion in some areas (where these Jewish Settlements could be found in India) much like the Greco-Roman populace produced many "god-fearers" who although did not become circumcised would have certainly respected (and even tithed) to Yahweh.
4.) Holy Book Access. Not only must the Gita be found in a location near or in a Jewish neighborhood or settlement, but evidence of earlier usage of the Gita before the Gospels, or Paul, where Jews have been accustomed to seeing it, or would have at least had knowledge of it.
5.) Holy Book in the Vernacular. Similarity in languages must be established. Is there evidence that Jews even would understand the Gita if they read it, or would have been in a position to transliterate the language into Hebrew or Greek in a manner which would allow one to show a common link between the Gita and the Gospels in the original languages (not the English summarizations)? Do such translations of the Gita in Greek or Hebrew even exist?
If these five venues can be established, there certainly would be sufficient reason to accept that Krishna and Hinduism would have had some sort of influence on the Jewish culture, to the point where one might suggest acutely that Christ would have been recycled trope from Hinduism. The same five must-haves would also have to be established for Buddha as well. (By the way, all five of these can be established for Orphism, and the traditions of Orpheus.)
Yet this is not what we have. In fact, we have the converse of what we would need to adequately establish a base claim that the tropes of Jesus were taken from Hinduism and Buddhism. Of the many non-biblical Jewish writers we know of, none discuss or refer to any Hindu god or Buddha, nor do they refer to dealings with Hindus or Buddhists, or having ever read the Gita. We have a very loud argument from silence on the part of Acharya's claim here, and this position that is being parroted by the fanboys on the message boards do not help her case.
What of references in non-Jewish sources are also non-extant. Can it be established that Greek city-states or the Roman Republic/Empire had access to these documents and myths? This must also be looked at and considered, and clearly it hasn't.
That isn't to say that there aren't some similarities between Buddha, Krishna and Jesus (Buddha was not a God, hero, king or queen, although Acharya claims so on her site. Nor would Buddha have been called "anointed" or "wetted," as she claims - such concepts were entirely Jewish in nature) but the similarities are themes shared by a wide variety of cultures having absolutely not connection with each other. The theme of life over death for example is one of these. So is the theme of dualism, the battle between light and dark - however in Judaism it is clear such trends developed from the Greeks. Clearly, one cannot be so careless as to assume that Krishna and Buddha influenced the development of Jesus Christ.
Onto the next fallacious claims. Once more I'm going to combine problems 3 and 4 to make for an easier explanation. The claim that Caesar was born of a virgin and that he was the son of a God is fallacious. The contemporary accounts of him that we have, including the ones he himself had written, make no mention of this fact. And Suetonius, a century later, only writes of the instance of which Caesar claimed to be descended from kings and Gods, not that he was born of a union between God and his mother:
"When quaestor [67 B.C.], he pronounced the customary orations from the rostra in praise of his aunt Julia and his wife Cornelia, who had both died. And in the eulogy of his aunt he spoke in the following terms of her paternal and maternal ancestry and that of his own father: 'The family of my aunt Julia is descended by her mother from the kings, and on her father's side is akin to the immortal Gods; for the Marcii Reges (her mother's family name) go back to Ancus Marcius, and the Julii, the family of which ours is a branch, to Venus. Our stock therefore has at once the sanctity of kings, whose power is supreme among mortal men, and the claim to reverence which attaches to the Gods, who hold sway over kings themselves.'" (Suetonius, Lives of the Twleve Caesars, Iulius Caesar VI:I)
We also know that Caesar lost his father early on during his teens, "IN the course of his sixteenth year [c. 85/84 B.C.] he lost his father." (Suetonius, Lives of the Twelve Caesars, Iulius Caesar I:I) So there is certainly knowledge that Caesar has a mortal father. Unlike the story of Jesus, which clearly paints a picture of Mary being impregnated before Joseph, with the Holy Spirit telling Joseph what the deal was (and why his soon to be wife was pregnant), we have no such story with Caesar. Suetonius certainly wasn't under the impression that Caesar was born of a virgin, as he makes no mention of such an act (and you would think he would!). Caesar became deified later on, yes, as a God. That does not make Caesar the son of God, nor does it mean he had a virgin birth. These are stories that don't apply to Julius Caesar, nor to Plato, yet Acharya S has apparently either made this up or sloppily read somewhere about this, and cited without further research these two men in this category. You can also consult The Oxford Classical Dictionary and The Cambridge Dictionary of Classical Civilization for authoritative data on this very subject. Cicero and Sallust will provide anyone with adequate information on Caesar as they are contemporaneous (Caesar also is enemy attestation).
The claim that Plato was among those born of a virgin and the son of God is bunk as well. Diogenes Laertius, a historian of good calibre from the period, who wrote, "And she became the mother of Plato by her husband Ariston, Plato being the sixth in descent from Solon." (Lives and Opinions of Eminent Philosophers, III.I) Certainly, if Diogenes had thought that Plato was born of a virgin, who was impregnated by a God as Acharya claims, why would he make it so clear that Plato was born of a union between his father and mother? Why do we have no such claim made by Aristotle? Certainly if anybody would have thought that Plato was born of a virgin, and was the son of God, Aristotle would have made a mention of it. Yet no reference can be found. Again, as before, no reference to a joining of his mother with a Apollo.
About the deification of the Caesars, it should also be noted that not all the Caesars were deified. In fact, Suetonius makes note that only Julius Caesar and Augustus Caesar were deified - and they were deified in the manner by which Charles H. Talbert puts forth in his book, What is a Gospel? (1977) The distinction lies within what the Greeks and Romans saw and understood between "eternals" and "immortals." He says:
"'Immortals' must be understood in the context of a distinction between two types of divine beings, the eternals and the immortals. This typology is mentioned at least as early as Herodotus, who says that Hercules and Dionysus were gods who had a beginning to their existence and had not existed eternally...the distinguishing marks of the immortals were: (1) the deity had originally been mortal, and (2) at the end of his career there occurred a transformation of ascention so that he obtained the same honors as the eternals." (p. 28-29)
Talbert goes on to give prominent examples in Egyptian, Greek and Roman mythology of such mortals attaining 'immortal' status. Caesar seems to have attained immortal status after or during his death, but he certainly was not the son of God, nor born of a virgin as Acharya claims. Ironically enough, the one character in Roman mythology who does have a typology similar to Jesus, that of Romulus, is missing from Acharya's list! (Romulus was said to have been the son of Mars and born of the virgin Ilia)
For a historian, comparative religion is a tricky thing. It's very cool to see how different societies have common tropes and themes, but that doesn't imply that these themes CAME from each other - at least not all the time. (And not without loads of data and evidence!) It is next to impossible most of the time to establish the connection many conmythispiracists (kon-myth-a-spiricists: my new title for mythicists who resort to this sort of rubbish) wish to establish. There are better ways, and certainly better explanations, for such tropes to exist in the New Testament. You only need one strong case of recycled tropes to show the Jesus of the Gospels isn't historical. And you only need one strong case of recycled tropes to show that those earlier tropes came from other Near Eastern cultures in antiquity. To go to the extremes of Acharya is not only pushing buttons, but begging for scholarship to look at one as amateurish.
Certainly, Acharya has been sloppy in her research, and her claims seem more like sensationalism than actual scholarship. Certainly she sells books, and that is good. I'm glad she is doing well for herself. We should all be so lucky. But, I will not, nor will I let others, promote such incredulous tripe as what we have seen above. There is certainly reason to be skeptical and even cautious about reading Acharya's work. It should be read carefully, with a grain of salt, and it should always be remembered that such claims need to be researched beyond her books. Certainly she misses some very powerful claims in need of citation, and even more does she need to spend more time reading the works of other historians and scholars in the field.
These are serious mistakes, and they need to be corrected.
For further reading: [www.infidels.org]
' It is next to impossible most of the time to establish the connection many conmythispiracists (kon-myth-a-spiricists: my new title for mythicists who resort to this sort of rubbish) wish to establish. There are better ways, and certainly better explanations, for such tropes to exist in the New Testament. You only need one strong case of recycled tropes to show the Jesus of the Gospels isn't historical. And you only need one strong case of recycled tropes to show that those earlier tropes came from other Near Eastern cultures in antiquity. To go to the extremes of Acharya is not only pushing buttons, but begging for scholarship to look at one as amateurish.""
Finally (for this evening) lets look at Acharya S who is also part of the Zeitgeist Movement package
[www.google.com]
The quotation above is from an article on Rational Responders
[www.rationalresponders.com]
Problems with Acharya S: A Brief Review
Submitted by Rook_Hawkins on October 21, 2007 - 4:27am. Over the past few weeks I have been getting an increase if fanboys (literally) of Acharya S, who pour in from who knows where (perhaps the Raves and Shindigs are letting out earlier then usual?). Perhaps they mean well, but this is really what the Jesus Mythicist Campaign was meant to expose - the poor and sloppy scholarship of some of the mythicist defenders out there. Among those who would discredit the movement, I feel Acharaya S is a valid candidate who has been among other things sloppy.
Now, let me clarify by saying I think Acharya is a great woman, who seems to be genuine in her desires to expose the flaws of Jesus historicists. And she is definitely a person with a quality personality. But, scholarship is not a popularity contest, despite what Bart Ehrman thinks. Scholarship is based on foundations of scientific observation and inductive reasoning that seems to be missing from the works of Acharya S (although I have yet to read her new book, with a preface by Robert M. Price, whom I think very highly of), and worse yet, her fans seem to be trolling the interwebs with intent and purpose.
Don't get me wrong, I'm glad to see that her fans are out and about, goodness knows what would happened if they all remained in that room together for much longer, yet why must they all flock to my section of the message board? It is clear from their posts that they have only read her books, and seem to have avoided other more note worthy mythicists like the plague! Worse yet, many of the fans that have come to my website seem to have no rudimentary knowledge of antiquity, nor do they seem to have any grasp of the methodologies employed by modern scholars and historians who have to face a rigid peer review before they publish.
When two of her fans attempted to go head to head with me in my forum, I confronted them are some of their very glaring historical inadequacies. Here is a brief list of some of these errors:
1. Comparing Jesus to Krishna/Buddha
2. Claiming the Moses/Jesus stories are Midrash based on the Bhagavad Gita
3. Claiming that both Julius Caesar and Plato were both said to be born of virgins and sons of God
4. Claiming ALL Caesars were deified
Of course, these fanboys get their information from Acharya's work. Her book Sons of God certainly claims that Buddha and Krishna influenced in some way the stories of Jesus and Moses, that Plato and Caesar were born of virgins and were sons of God. I'm grouping problems 1 and 2 together to make for easier refutations of the claims put forth by these fanboys, and Acharya S.
First, before one can even claim that there were influences on early Christians/Jews by the Bhagavad Gita or the works of Buddha (life of Buddha?), several things must be established:
1.) Settlements. What evidence does one have of Jewish settlements in India? What archaeological finds have been presented for this? Example: We have inscriptions (on tomb stones and buildings) and dedications in Alexandria, Rome, Syria, and Cyrenaica of Jewish neighborhoods and businesses, synagogues and temples. Alexandria has the highest concentration of evidence of Jewish life, however outside the Ancient Near East, we have found settlements in Italy and Greece and that is really it. Please consult J.M.G. Barclay's, Jew's in the Mediterranean Diaspora: From Alexander to Trajan (1996).
2.) Holy Book Location. One must show evidence at one of these other Jewish locations, especially Alexandria where papyrus was found and made in great numbers (hence why we have so many manuscripts from Egypt), where the Gita has been found.
3.) Assimilation and Socio-Cultural Accommodation. One must present some level of sociological assimilation or acculturalization where the Jews have lost some of their cultural distinctiveness to the Hindu religion, or the following of Hindu religious practices, such that we see with Orpheus and Orphic traditions (i.e. Poems written in Hebrew to Orpheus, or mosaics in Jewish synagogues of Orpheus) - we should see poems or literature written of Krishna in Hebrew, or some sort of art or graffiti in Jewish living areas dedicated to Krishna. The opposite should also be seen as well: Those who follow Hinduism should have held in some regard the Jewish religion in some areas (where these Jewish Settlements could be found in India) much like the Greco-Roman populace produced many "god-fearers" who although did not become circumcised would have certainly respected (and even tithed) to Yahweh.
4.) Holy Book Access. Not only must the Gita be found in a location near or in a Jewish neighborhood or settlement, but evidence of earlier usage of the Gita before the Gospels, or Paul, where Jews have been accustomed to seeing it, or would have at least had knowledge of it.
5.) Holy Book in the Vernacular. Similarity in languages must be established. Is there evidence that Jews even would understand the Gita if they read it, or would have been in a position to transliterate the language into Hebrew or Greek in a manner which would allow one to show a common link between the Gita and the Gospels in the original languages (not the English summarizations)? Do such translations of the Gita in Greek or Hebrew even exist?
If these five venues can be established, there certainly would be sufficient reason to accept that Krishna and Hinduism would have had some sort of influence on the Jewish culture, to the point where one might suggest acutely that Christ would have been recycled trope from Hinduism. The same five must-haves would also have to be established for Buddha as well. (By the way, all five of these can be established for Orphism, and the traditions of Orpheus.)
Yet this is not what we have. In fact, we have the converse of what we would need to adequately establish a base claim that the tropes of Jesus were taken from Hinduism and Buddhism. Of the many non-biblical Jewish writers we know of, none discuss or refer to any Hindu god or Buddha, nor do they refer to dealings with Hindus or Buddhists, or having ever read the Gita. We have a very loud argument from silence on the part of Acharya's claim here, and this position that is being parroted by the fanboys on the message boards do not help her case.
What of references in non-Jewish sources are also non-extant. Can it be established that Greek city-states or the Roman Republic/Empire had access to these documents and myths? This must also be looked at and considered, and clearly it hasn't.
That isn't to say that there aren't some similarities between Buddha, Krishna and Jesus (Buddha was not a God, hero, king or queen, although Acharya claims so on her site. Nor would Buddha have been called "anointed" or "wetted," as she claims - such concepts were entirely Jewish in nature) but the similarities are themes shared by a wide variety of cultures having absolutely not connection with each other. The theme of life over death for example is one of these. So is the theme of dualism, the battle between light and dark - however in Judaism it is clear such trends developed from the Greeks. Clearly, one cannot be so careless as to assume that Krishna and Buddha influenced the development of Jesus Christ.
Onto the next fallacious claims. Once more I'm going to combine problems 3 and 4 to make for an easier explanation. The claim that Caesar was born of a virgin and that he was the son of a God is fallacious. The contemporary accounts of him that we have, including the ones he himself had written, make no mention of this fact. And Suetonius, a century later, only writes of the instance of which Caesar claimed to be descended from kings and Gods, not that he was born of a union between God and his mother:
"When quaestor [67 B.C.], he pronounced the customary orations from the rostra in praise of his aunt Julia and his wife Cornelia, who had both died. And in the eulogy of his aunt he spoke in the following terms of her paternal and maternal ancestry and that of his own father: 'The family of my aunt Julia is descended by her mother from the kings, and on her father's side is akin to the immortal Gods; for the Marcii Reges (her mother's family name) go back to Ancus Marcius, and the Julii, the family of which ours is a branch, to Venus. Our stock therefore has at once the sanctity of kings, whose power is supreme among mortal men, and the claim to reverence which attaches to the Gods, who hold sway over kings themselves.'" (Suetonius, Lives of the Twleve Caesars, Iulius Caesar VI:I)
We also know that Caesar lost his father early on during his teens, "IN the course of his sixteenth year [c. 85/84 B.C.] he lost his father." (Suetonius, Lives of the Twelve Caesars, Iulius Caesar I:I) So there is certainly knowledge that Caesar has a mortal father. Unlike the story of Jesus, which clearly paints a picture of Mary being impregnated before Joseph, with the Holy Spirit telling Joseph what the deal was (and why his soon to be wife was pregnant), we have no such story with Caesar. Suetonius certainly wasn't under the impression that Caesar was born of a virgin, as he makes no mention of such an act (and you would think he would!). Caesar became deified later on, yes, as a God. That does not make Caesar the son of God, nor does it mean he had a virgin birth. These are stories that don't apply to Julius Caesar, nor to Plato, yet Acharya S has apparently either made this up or sloppily read somewhere about this, and cited without further research these two men in this category. You can also consult The Oxford Classical Dictionary and The Cambridge Dictionary of Classical Civilization for authoritative data on this very subject. Cicero and Sallust will provide anyone with adequate information on Caesar as they are contemporaneous (Caesar also is enemy attestation).
The claim that Plato was among those born of a virgin and the son of God is bunk as well. Diogenes Laertius, a historian of good calibre from the period, who wrote, "And she became the mother of Plato by her husband Ariston, Plato being the sixth in descent from Solon." (Lives and Opinions of Eminent Philosophers, III.I) Certainly, if Diogenes had thought that Plato was born of a virgin, who was impregnated by a God as Acharya claims, why would he make it so clear that Plato was born of a union between his father and mother? Why do we have no such claim made by Aristotle? Certainly if anybody would have thought that Plato was born of a virgin, and was the son of God, Aristotle would have made a mention of it. Yet no reference can be found. Again, as before, no reference to a joining of his mother with a Apollo.
About the deification of the Caesars, it should also be noted that not all the Caesars were deified. In fact, Suetonius makes note that only Julius Caesar and Augustus Caesar were deified - and they were deified in the manner by which Charles H. Talbert puts forth in his book, What is a Gospel? (1977) The distinction lies within what the Greeks and Romans saw and understood between "eternals" and "immortals." He says:
"'Immortals' must be understood in the context of a distinction between two types of divine beings, the eternals and the immortals. This typology is mentioned at least as early as Herodotus, who says that Hercules and Dionysus were gods who had a beginning to their existence and had not existed eternally...the distinguishing marks of the immortals were: (1) the deity had originally been mortal, and (2) at the end of his career there occurred a transformation of ascention so that he obtained the same honors as the eternals." (p. 28-29)
Talbert goes on to give prominent examples in Egyptian, Greek and Roman mythology of such mortals attaining 'immortal' status. Caesar seems to have attained immortal status after or during his death, but he certainly was not the son of God, nor born of a virgin as Acharya claims. Ironically enough, the one character in Roman mythology who does have a typology similar to Jesus, that of Romulus, is missing from Acharya's list! (Romulus was said to have been the son of Mars and born of the virgin Ilia)
For a historian, comparative religion is a tricky thing. It's very cool to see how different societies have common tropes and themes, but that doesn't imply that these themes CAME from each other - at least not all the time. (And not without loads of data and evidence!) It is next to impossible most of the time to establish the connection many conmythispiracists (kon-myth-a-spiricists: my new title for mythicists who resort to this sort of rubbish) wish to establish. There are better ways, and certainly better explanations, for such tropes to exist in the New Testament. You only need one strong case of recycled tropes to show the Jesus of the Gospels isn't historical. And you only need one strong case of recycled tropes to show that those earlier tropes came from other Near Eastern cultures in antiquity. To go to the extremes of Acharya is not only pushing buttons, but begging for scholarship to look at one as amateurish.
Certainly, Acharya has been sloppy in her research, and her claims seem more like sensationalism than actual scholarship. Certainly she sells books, and that is good. I'm glad she is doing well for herself. We should all be so lucky. But, I will not, nor will I let others, promote such incredulous tripe as what we have seen above. There is certainly reason to be skeptical and even cautious about reading Acharya's work. It should be read carefully, with a grain of salt, and it should always be remembered that such claims need to be researched beyond her books. Certainly she misses some very powerful claims in need of citation, and even more does she need to spend more time reading the works of other historians and scholars in the field.
These are serious mistakes, and they need to be corrected.
For further reading: [www.infidels.org]
Re: The Zeitgeist Movement (TZM)
Posted by:
corboy
()
Date: March 03, 2011 09:20AM
[www.therefinersfire.org]
(quote)The Refiner's Fire used to feature an entire series of challenges against an opinionated pantheist who calls herself "Acharya S" (real name "D. Murdock") - webmaster of Truth Be Known[www.truthbeknown.com] and a viper pit of blog called Christ Conspiracy[groups.yahoo.com] that attracts a rag-tag mixture of atheists, pantheists and a subset of humanity who apparently have nothing better to do than to post hate-filled diatribes against believers in God.
After several years of featuring our rebuttals to some of Acharya's nonsensical charges against "Jesus", we have decided to utilize our space for more worthy causes. The driving force behind our decision was that we realized our arguments with Acharya were falling on deaf ears because the bottom line is, people are going to believe whatever they want to believe.
Besides, her assertions have been amply refuted by others, including J.P. Holding who wrote an analysis of Acharya's latest book, The Christ Conspiracy[/ihttp://groups.yahoo.com/group/Christ_Conspiracy/], and Mike Licona, a New Testament historian and Christian apologist who has successfully debunked Acharya's books: A Refutation of Acharya S's book, The Christ Conspiracyhttp://www.risen-jesus.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=22&Itemid=109, and "An answer to your rebuttal titled, "A Rebuttal to Mike Licona's 'Refutation of The Christ Conspiracy'http://www.risen-jesus.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=23&Itemid=109".
The only thing we can really do for people like "Acharya S" and her ilk is to keep them in prayer.
Matthew 10: 14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.
Luke 9: 5 And whosoever will not receive you, when ye go out of that city, shake off the very dust from your feet for a testimony against them.
After you've read the articles at the above links, just click on the "BACK" button to return to The Refiner's Fire.
(quote)The Refiner's Fire used to feature an entire series of challenges against an opinionated pantheist who calls herself "Acharya S" (real name "D. Murdock") - webmaster of Truth Be Known[www.truthbeknown.com] and a viper pit of blog called Christ Conspiracy[groups.yahoo.com] that attracts a rag-tag mixture of atheists, pantheists and a subset of humanity who apparently have nothing better to do than to post hate-filled diatribes against believers in God.
After several years of featuring our rebuttals to some of Acharya's nonsensical charges against "Jesus", we have decided to utilize our space for more worthy causes. The driving force behind our decision was that we realized our arguments with Acharya were falling on deaf ears because the bottom line is, people are going to believe whatever they want to believe.
Besides, her assertions have been amply refuted by others, including J.P. Holding who wrote an analysis of Acharya's latest book, The Christ Conspiracy[/ihttp://groups.yahoo.com/group/Christ_Conspiracy/], and Mike Licona, a New Testament historian and Christian apologist who has successfully debunked Acharya's books: A Refutation of Acharya S's book, The Christ Conspiracyhttp://www.risen-jesus.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=22&Itemid=109, and "An answer to your rebuttal titled, "A Rebuttal to Mike Licona's 'Refutation of The Christ Conspiracy'http://www.risen-jesus.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=23&Itemid=109".
The only thing we can really do for people like "Acharya S" and her ilk is to keep them in prayer.
Matthew 10: 14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.
Luke 9: 5 And whosoever will not receive you, when ye go out of that city, shake off the very dust from your feet for a testimony against them.
After you've read the articles at the above links, just click on the "BACK" button to return to The Refiner's Fire.
Re: The Zeitgeist Movement (TZM)
Posted by:
corboy
()
Date: March 03, 2011 09:29AM
To balance the orthodox Christian assessment of Acharya S given above, here is a discussion of Acharya S among persons who are sympathetic to gnostic or mythicist views on Christ/Christianaity-- but have reservations about her opus.
[www.skepticforum.com]
What’s with Acharya S.
Share your thoughts on the written word.
Post a reply7 posts • Page 1 of 1
What’s with Acharya S.
Post #1 by Chadvoodoo » Wed May 11, 2005 4:54 am
I just ordered the book ‘Suns of God: Krishna, Buddha & Christ Unveiled’ and am looking forward to reading it. I had previously read parts of her book ‘The Christ Conspiracy; The Greatest Story Ever Sold’ and enjoyed it very much. The Author- Acharya S.- writes well and the length and breadth of her knowledge in the area of myth, religion and history seams inexhaustible.
But a couple of things about her and her books send up red flags:
1)Her books are published by Adventures Unlimited Press, a firm that has an extensive catalog of what I can best describe as “fringe” books (conspiracy stuff, books on Atlantis, U.F.O.’s, etc.).
2)Her webpage- [www.truthbeknown.com] - has a certain “new agey” feel that I find inconsistent with her being a self professed skeptic and critical thinker. To be more specific, she professes a belief in U.F.O. and aliens (while admitting that she can not prove it). And in such essays on her website as ‘Mysteries of the World’ she celebrates some fantastic cosmic anomalies she claims science cannot explain--all the while labeling debunkers and skeptics as “dogmatic and dull”.
In my way of thinking, (and I could be wrong) to hold religion and the belief in a personal god up to such rigid and thought provoking scrutiny and then let the U.F.O. klatch off the hook is a bit inconsistent. It’s like condemning the eating of candy and then binging on donuts!
What I’m wondering is how Acharya S. is regarded by scholars in the area of myth and religion? How well regarded is she by other professionals in both the skeptic community and the ancient studies community?
Again, even though she seems dead on as far as the subject of the origins of Christianity is concerned; the fact that she doesn’t have a more mainstream publisher worries me a little bit.“Man will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest” - Denis Diderot
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Post #2 by Colonel Hogan » Fri May 13, 2005 7:27 pm
I don't believe "Acharya S." is regarded at all by the Biblical scholarship community. I think she is probably a Wiccan feminist -- she makes some good arguments but basically she rehashes Wheless constantly.
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Post #3 by Richard Spencer » Fri Jul 15, 2005 7:56 am
Acharya S. is one of many new authors who have written on the subject of Jesus and his pagan predecessors. The result of these works has generally been to present Jesus as a myth and not a person who lived in history. The bulk of their arguments typically rests on comparing essential elements of the story of Jesus with similar instances in pagan mythology. The problem with these works should be obvious to skeptics; we've got a lot of people quoting each other and producing a lot of literature, but we rarely get any primary sources. Starting with authors like Gerald Massey and Kersey Graves, you end up getting a lot of interesting speculation, but little substance and enough scholarly errors to cast a dubious shadow on the entire genre.
These kinds of works typically end up serving as a bridge to some other "weird" beliefs. For example, Timothy Freke and Peter Gandy's "The Jesus Mysteries" was a very important book for me in leaving Christianity, but based on their more recent works, I can see a pattern developing something like this... (and this is not directed entirely or exclusively at Freke and Gandy, but is directed more at the genre)
1. Christianity as it exists in the world today is not literally accurate
2. Thanks to our scholarship and research, we have uncovered certain principles at work in the religions that influenced Christianity and early Gnosticism before it was corrupted
3. These principles are mystic truths and should be explored/experienced today
In other words, they're debunking Christianity - but they are doing so in order to use the popularity of Christianity to provide the foundation of their own mysticism. This can be done because they act as if they have located the genuine heart of truth that birthed Christianity. Even Elaine Pagels seems to have wondered slightly into this problem in her book on the Gospel of Thomas.
Acharya S's works, as you have noted Chad, seem to push deeply into this territory.
It is unfortunate that Acharya S seems to have become known as a current "scholar" who supports mythicist theories about Jesus. Her other theories place her well into the fringe and thereby make mythicists appear to be on the fringe. If I were you Chad, I would rest "Suns of God" on my bookshelf and pick up The Jesus Puzzle by Earl Dougherty or the many works of G.A. Wells on Jesus and the New Testament.
Nevertheless, the astrotheological influences on Christianity are certainly intersting to study. Just be warned - it risky to believe something simply because Acharya S says so.Richard Spencer
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Re: What’s with Acharya S.
Post #4 by NoMan » Tue Jul 19, 2005 1:50 am
Look at Acharya's references. Many of them are old Theosophists from Blavatsky's circle. I have to credit her, she does manage to find obscure references and historical arguments that faded away. However, she also tends to ignore a lot of new scholarship in the area. A few thoughts of mine:
1.) Her repeated citations from 100 year old books is a common tactic used by people who do not write well. If a book is over so many years, no permission is necessary to use it, the book can be quoted word for word as long as the original author is credited.
2.) She does embrace many of the stranger theories that float about. She does not agree with Zacharia Sitchin, but holds many opinions that float in the same arena as him. She reminds me greatly of David Icke.
3.) She is lacking on credentials. Her only credential is an undergrad in mythology. She doesn't say what level that undergrad is either, two year or four years?
4.) She uses some very spurious sources. Particularly, her repeated use of Barbara Walker in her online rants. Walker is a femi-nazi pagan that believes everything wrong in the world can be traced to a white man. Her scholarship is completely lacking. Even people doing Amazon reviews that look up her work find she deliberately falsifies information from her sources. Outside from Walker, most of her sources are going to be old theosophists.
5.) Her tactics resemble Freke & Gandy. They push against Christianity as we know it to substitute it for their gnostic blend of Christianity. She pushes it for a pre-Christian mother-worshipping religion. Skeptics will say, "Why should we overthrow the Pope and then institute the Dhali Lama?" Just note that there is an ideological agenda.
6.) Check Richard Carrier's arguments along these lines:
[www.infidels.org] ... raves.html
He's a historian who has written and researched extensively on this time period. Follow the links at the bottom and you'll get into some more meaty discussions about these types of arguments and the flaws inherent to them.
7.) Having said all that, she isn't that bad for information on Christianity. Just be skeptical about what she says, look for where she gets information from, and compare her work with Dr. Robert Price, Earl Doherty, or G.A. Wells. I mention these three because they do not have any known ideological bias, (except that Price is a H.P. Lovecraft fan).
8.) Which reminds me of one other thing. She seems very uncritical of her sources. In a debate with a Christian on her references, she keeps saying, "Well, so and so said that, so it's not me." For example, that there are 150,000 textual variations on the New Testament. When challenged on it by modern standards there isn't nearly that many, she just repeats it. "So and so said it, it's not me."
Okay. The whole point of being an author and supposedly an expert on a field is to present the wheat from the chaff. If you're just lumping sources together without discrimination, then you're back to the problem that Richard Carrier talked about, the work becomes useless as a reference, since you have to repeat all the research of the person's book in order to find out what is right and what is wrong.
[www.risenjesus.com] ... =acharya-s
Is a two-part rebuttle.NoMan
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Post #5 by Co » Sun Oct 09, 2005 6:26 am
Thank you Richard, Col. Hogan and NoMan. Your comments and feedback were helpful.“Man will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest” - Denis Diderot
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Post #6 by shamrock » Wed May 24, 2006 10:12 pm
I read Acharya's books and enjoyed them. If you read the feedback in the "Emails I have loved" section on her website, you'll encounter a number of people who benefitted from her books: they stopped believing in Christ.You can be skeptical about anything you want to be....except the luck of the Irish!!shamrock
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Book is Bunk
Post #7 by mikeledo » Tue Jan 23, 2007 11:39 pm
Now I will confess I believe that the Bible is based upon a
[www.skepticforum.com]
What’s with Acharya S.
Share your thoughts on the written word.
Post a reply7 posts • Page 1 of 1
What’s with Acharya S.
Post #1 by Chadvoodoo » Wed May 11, 2005 4:54 am
I just ordered the book ‘Suns of God: Krishna, Buddha & Christ Unveiled’ and am looking forward to reading it. I had previously read parts of her book ‘The Christ Conspiracy; The Greatest Story Ever Sold’ and enjoyed it very much. The Author- Acharya S.- writes well and the length and breadth of her knowledge in the area of myth, religion and history seams inexhaustible.
But a couple of things about her and her books send up red flags:
1)Her books are published by Adventures Unlimited Press, a firm that has an extensive catalog of what I can best describe as “fringe” books (conspiracy stuff, books on Atlantis, U.F.O.’s, etc.).
2)Her webpage- [www.truthbeknown.com] - has a certain “new agey” feel that I find inconsistent with her being a self professed skeptic and critical thinker. To be more specific, she professes a belief in U.F.O. and aliens (while admitting that she can not prove it). And in such essays on her website as ‘Mysteries of the World’ she celebrates some fantastic cosmic anomalies she claims science cannot explain--all the while labeling debunkers and skeptics as “dogmatic and dull”.
In my way of thinking, (and I could be wrong) to hold religion and the belief in a personal god up to such rigid and thought provoking scrutiny and then let the U.F.O. klatch off the hook is a bit inconsistent. It’s like condemning the eating of candy and then binging on donuts!
What I’m wondering is how Acharya S. is regarded by scholars in the area of myth and religion? How well regarded is she by other professionals in both the skeptic community and the ancient studies community?
Again, even though she seems dead on as far as the subject of the origins of Christianity is concerned; the fact that she doesn’t have a more mainstream publisher worries me a little bit.“Man will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest” - Denis Diderot
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Post #2 by Colonel Hogan » Fri May 13, 2005 7:27 pm
I don't believe "Acharya S." is regarded at all by the Biblical scholarship community. I think she is probably a Wiccan feminist -- she makes some good arguments but basically she rehashes Wheless constantly.
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Post #3 by Richard Spencer » Fri Jul 15, 2005 7:56 am
Acharya S. is one of many new authors who have written on the subject of Jesus and his pagan predecessors. The result of these works has generally been to present Jesus as a myth and not a person who lived in history. The bulk of their arguments typically rests on comparing essential elements of the story of Jesus with similar instances in pagan mythology. The problem with these works should be obvious to skeptics; we've got a lot of people quoting each other and producing a lot of literature, but we rarely get any primary sources. Starting with authors like Gerald Massey and Kersey Graves, you end up getting a lot of interesting speculation, but little substance and enough scholarly errors to cast a dubious shadow on the entire genre.
These kinds of works typically end up serving as a bridge to some other "weird" beliefs. For example, Timothy Freke and Peter Gandy's "The Jesus Mysteries" was a very important book for me in leaving Christianity, but based on their more recent works, I can see a pattern developing something like this... (and this is not directed entirely or exclusively at Freke and Gandy, but is directed more at the genre)
1. Christianity as it exists in the world today is not literally accurate
2. Thanks to our scholarship and research, we have uncovered certain principles at work in the religions that influenced Christianity and early Gnosticism before it was corrupted
3. These principles are mystic truths and should be explored/experienced today
In other words, they're debunking Christianity - but they are doing so in order to use the popularity of Christianity to provide the foundation of their own mysticism. This can be done because they act as if they have located the genuine heart of truth that birthed Christianity. Even Elaine Pagels seems to have wondered slightly into this problem in her book on the Gospel of Thomas.
Acharya S's works, as you have noted Chad, seem to push deeply into this territory.
It is unfortunate that Acharya S seems to have become known as a current "scholar" who supports mythicist theories about Jesus. Her other theories place her well into the fringe and thereby make mythicists appear to be on the fringe. If I were you Chad, I would rest "Suns of God" on my bookshelf and pick up The Jesus Puzzle by Earl Dougherty or the many works of G.A. Wells on Jesus and the New Testament.
Nevertheless, the astrotheological influences on Christianity are certainly intersting to study. Just be warned - it risky to believe something simply because Acharya S says so.Richard Spencer
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Re: What’s with Acharya S.
Post #4 by NoMan » Tue Jul 19, 2005 1:50 am
Look at Acharya's references. Many of them are old Theosophists from Blavatsky's circle. I have to credit her, she does manage to find obscure references and historical arguments that faded away. However, she also tends to ignore a lot of new scholarship in the area. A few thoughts of mine:
1.) Her repeated citations from 100 year old books is a common tactic used by people who do not write well. If a book is over so many years, no permission is necessary to use it, the book can be quoted word for word as long as the original author is credited.
2.) She does embrace many of the stranger theories that float about. She does not agree with Zacharia Sitchin, but holds many opinions that float in the same arena as him. She reminds me greatly of David Icke.
3.) She is lacking on credentials. Her only credential is an undergrad in mythology. She doesn't say what level that undergrad is either, two year or four years?
4.) She uses some very spurious sources. Particularly, her repeated use of Barbara Walker in her online rants. Walker is a femi-nazi pagan that believes everything wrong in the world can be traced to a white man. Her scholarship is completely lacking. Even people doing Amazon reviews that look up her work find she deliberately falsifies information from her sources. Outside from Walker, most of her sources are going to be old theosophists.
5.) Her tactics resemble Freke & Gandy. They push against Christianity as we know it to substitute it for their gnostic blend of Christianity. She pushes it for a pre-Christian mother-worshipping religion. Skeptics will say, "Why should we overthrow the Pope and then institute the Dhali Lama?" Just note that there is an ideological agenda.
6.) Check Richard Carrier's arguments along these lines:
[www.infidels.org] ... raves.html
He's a historian who has written and researched extensively on this time period. Follow the links at the bottom and you'll get into some more meaty discussions about these types of arguments and the flaws inherent to them.
7.) Having said all that, she isn't that bad for information on Christianity. Just be skeptical about what she says, look for where she gets information from, and compare her work with Dr. Robert Price, Earl Doherty, or G.A. Wells. I mention these three because they do not have any known ideological bias, (except that Price is a H.P. Lovecraft fan).
8.) Which reminds me of one other thing. She seems very uncritical of her sources. In a debate with a Christian on her references, she keeps saying, "Well, so and so said that, so it's not me." For example, that there are 150,000 textual variations on the New Testament. When challenged on it by modern standards there isn't nearly that many, she just repeats it. "So and so said it, it's not me."
Okay. The whole point of being an author and supposedly an expert on a field is to present the wheat from the chaff. If you're just lumping sources together without discrimination, then you're back to the problem that Richard Carrier talked about, the work becomes useless as a reference, since you have to repeat all the research of the person's book in order to find out what is right and what is wrong.
[www.risenjesus.com] ... =acharya-s
Is a two-part rebuttle.NoMan
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Post #5 by Co » Sun Oct 09, 2005 6:26 am
Thank you Richard, Col. Hogan and NoMan. Your comments and feedback were helpful.“Man will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest” - Denis Diderot
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Post #6 by shamrock » Wed May 24, 2006 10:12 pm
I read Acharya's books and enjoyed them. If you read the feedback in the "Emails I have loved" section on her website, you'll encounter a number of people who benefitted from her books: they stopped believing in Christ.You can be skeptical about anything you want to be....except the luck of the Irish!!shamrock
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Book is Bunk
Post #7 by mikeledo » Tue Jan 23, 2007 11:39 pm
Now I will confess I believe that the Bible is based upon a
Re: The Zeitgeist Movement (TZM)
Posted by:
Prometheuspan
()
Date: March 03, 2011 09:30AM
"This is based on obsolete understanding of sexual biology."
Lets be frank about how this works. Jaques and PJ both have a pretty good strong intelligence and both can do fairly good research. To about the Bachelors level. Unfortunately for them they can't tell the difference between
modern theories and ones science let go of 50 years ago. Using this patently shallow understanding which they have, they then claim to be infinite experts on all of civilization, oh, by the way, just send $$$.
Everything about their supposed "scientific method" claims is thus completely bogus. They don't use the scientific method they do third rate research and then they form their opinions which they then disperse via fascist totalitarian hierarchal dispensations.
PJs assorted films are tragically chock full of the kind of glaring fatal errors that could only be made because of failing to take that research to the masters or P.hD level. In short, the Cults capacity for learning or knowledge is limited
only to what PJ himself can do or the aging thoughts and ideals of the Cults prophet, Jaques.
What they can not do is form any kind of real collaborative base. What they can not do is organize their cult membership into a research think tank and go find the real solutions to societies problems. What they can not do is responsibly handle any other genuinely educated person, who shows up and asks hard question or who shows up and wants to do real work. There are well over 20 splinter groups which have formed because they are such blatant evil control
freaks that the moment anybody with real knowledge shows up all they can do is react reflexively to try to dominate that person and to try to get that person to behave and accept their idiotic dogmatic system.
Any and all claims that they have thus to science or the scientific method are bogus. The make all sorts of claims. They claim the cult has no leaders, when in fact VTV is merely the lowest level of a cult of of personality in three tiers.
Information is dispensed from the top down. Attempted contributions from members are ignored and advanced attempted contributions from members gets people banned. I was viciously attacked for the crime of attempting to provide to them information about alpha brainwave states. Because they would need that information to stop being hypnotized and stop using coercive hypnosis.
I didn't say that last part, ever, on their forums. I kept it informational and factual even as they attacked me over and over and over and called me crazy and my factual information wrong.
The actual truth is that TZM/ TVP is a dogmatic system, which exists in direct contravention to known science facts of sociology, biology, psychology, systems theory, game theory, paradigmology, and formal conversational logic. Its an insane dogmatic system which demands that we literally overthrow the government (violently) and that we stop using money. Its assorted problem definitions while mostly true are so incredibly polarized and polarizing that no real problem working or problem solving can go on from there. PJs new movie is literally an incitement to riot, using binuarual beats to hypnotize people and giving us a bunch of science to define the problems but then pulling a selight of mind switcharoo for the (non)solutions that are absolutely not scientific which they propose. The cult is actually this in the way of positive social change, it is merely an obstruction to solving the same problems it says that it wants to address.
In short. Our current economic system is a caterpillar. Ugly and primitive and yes we can say it seriously needs to evolve. TZM/TVP solution is to slay that caterpillar with a million cuts. Not help it cocoon, not help it evolve. Not understand it. Rather than have compassion for the elites, TZM/TVP encourages everyone to paint devils horns on them and money, and to view the situation in absolutist black and white terms.
I agree very much with a lot of the good things that the cult has to say; but these are only the bait and the carrots which they put forth- like any other cult. And I for one want to see this caterpillar cocoon and evolve into a butterfly, I'm not so insane that I would make the organism itself evil when it is itself just the product of evolutionary forces. Rather than work for positive social change using positives, TVP/ TZM has excused its own evils by the evils it says it wants to confront. The ends does not justify the means, and fascism is most fundamentally any system which relies absolutely on diabolized scape goats.
VTV is here to tell you it just isn't so. Whats not easy to spot is that he is in fact a bully, an ad hominem junkie, a sociopath, a manipulative con artist, and a chronic habitual liar. Whats not easy to spot is that his dogmatic system is not about helping people, its about making them wrong in order to vamp off claiming the moral high ground. Whats not easy to spot is that VTV has proven a thousand times over to the people that know him and the situation well that he will do or say anything, anything at all, which he thinks supports the cult. He will lie, censor, demean, insult, blacklist (the tzm cult forum hosts a blacklist and falsely names me and many other people as trolls. This list was used to encourage his entire cult to cyberstalk and falsely report against people on FB; to the effect that many people lost their accounts.) ...the list goes on and on. Name a dysfunctional or cult behavior and I can promise you i can list several instances of it.
This is only one more example. "Aberrant behavior" This is not facing the hard truths about what drives homosexual behavior and this is not evolutionary process. Its joining the anti gay bandwagon while pretending to be above it all.
Lets be frank about how this works. Jaques and PJ both have a pretty good strong intelligence and both can do fairly good research. To about the Bachelors level. Unfortunately for them they can't tell the difference between
modern theories and ones science let go of 50 years ago. Using this patently shallow understanding which they have, they then claim to be infinite experts on all of civilization, oh, by the way, just send $$$.
Everything about their supposed "scientific method" claims is thus completely bogus. They don't use the scientific method they do third rate research and then they form their opinions which they then disperse via fascist totalitarian hierarchal dispensations.
PJs assorted films are tragically chock full of the kind of glaring fatal errors that could only be made because of failing to take that research to the masters or P.hD level. In short, the Cults capacity for learning or knowledge is limited
only to what PJ himself can do or the aging thoughts and ideals of the Cults prophet, Jaques.
What they can not do is form any kind of real collaborative base. What they can not do is organize their cult membership into a research think tank and go find the real solutions to societies problems. What they can not do is responsibly handle any other genuinely educated person, who shows up and asks hard question or who shows up and wants to do real work. There are well over 20 splinter groups which have formed because they are such blatant evil control
freaks that the moment anybody with real knowledge shows up all they can do is react reflexively to try to dominate that person and to try to get that person to behave and accept their idiotic dogmatic system.
Any and all claims that they have thus to science or the scientific method are bogus. The make all sorts of claims. They claim the cult has no leaders, when in fact VTV is merely the lowest level of a cult of of personality in three tiers.
Information is dispensed from the top down. Attempted contributions from members are ignored and advanced attempted contributions from members gets people banned. I was viciously attacked for the crime of attempting to provide to them information about alpha brainwave states. Because they would need that information to stop being hypnotized and stop using coercive hypnosis.
I didn't say that last part, ever, on their forums. I kept it informational and factual even as they attacked me over and over and over and called me crazy and my factual information wrong.
The actual truth is that TZM/ TVP is a dogmatic system, which exists in direct contravention to known science facts of sociology, biology, psychology, systems theory, game theory, paradigmology, and formal conversational logic. Its an insane dogmatic system which demands that we literally overthrow the government (violently) and that we stop using money. Its assorted problem definitions while mostly true are so incredibly polarized and polarizing that no real problem working or problem solving can go on from there. PJs new movie is literally an incitement to riot, using binuarual beats to hypnotize people and giving us a bunch of science to define the problems but then pulling a selight of mind switcharoo for the (non)solutions that are absolutely not scientific which they propose. The cult is actually this in the way of positive social change, it is merely an obstruction to solving the same problems it says that it wants to address.
In short. Our current economic system is a caterpillar. Ugly and primitive and yes we can say it seriously needs to evolve. TZM/TVP solution is to slay that caterpillar with a million cuts. Not help it cocoon, not help it evolve. Not understand it. Rather than have compassion for the elites, TZM/TVP encourages everyone to paint devils horns on them and money, and to view the situation in absolutist black and white terms.
I agree very much with a lot of the good things that the cult has to say; but these are only the bait and the carrots which they put forth- like any other cult. And I for one want to see this caterpillar cocoon and evolve into a butterfly, I'm not so insane that I would make the organism itself evil when it is itself just the product of evolutionary forces. Rather than work for positive social change using positives, TVP/ TZM has excused its own evils by the evils it says it wants to confront. The ends does not justify the means, and fascism is most fundamentally any system which relies absolutely on diabolized scape goats.
VTV is here to tell you it just isn't so. Whats not easy to spot is that he is in fact a bully, an ad hominem junkie, a sociopath, a manipulative con artist, and a chronic habitual liar. Whats not easy to spot is that his dogmatic system is not about helping people, its about making them wrong in order to vamp off claiming the moral high ground. Whats not easy to spot is that VTV has proven a thousand times over to the people that know him and the situation well that he will do or say anything, anything at all, which he thinks supports the cult. He will lie, censor, demean, insult, blacklist (the tzm cult forum hosts a blacklist and falsely names me and many other people as trolls. This list was used to encourage his entire cult to cyberstalk and falsely report against people on FB; to the effect that many people lost their accounts.) ...the list goes on and on. Name a dysfunctional or cult behavior and I can promise you i can list several instances of it.
This is only one more example. "Aberrant behavior" This is not facing the hard truths about what drives homosexual behavior and this is not evolutionary process. Its joining the anti gay bandwagon while pretending to be above it all.
Re: The Zeitgeist Movement (TZM)
Posted by:
VTV
()
Date: March 03, 2011 10:21AM
Quote
DavidWish
The bullshit stops here.
1. Restore the deleted post showing anonymous direction being deceptive.
2. Apologize, with a detailed explanation, the wrong doing.
3. Make the necessary corrections for all members to be “inoculated” from an abusive cultist environment within TZM.
Fail to do so and TZM will continue to be an abusive cult.
1. I already offered to re-post the whole thing here if you want.
2. We don't need to apologize. Nobody was rude to you. You read and agreed to the rules of the forum when you came. You violated them.
3. TZM is not a cult. And there is no abuse. So this is not nessacary.
As for your last statement, this basically reads exactly as the various threats we have received from trolls in the past. Let me translate your veiled threat:
"Fail to allow me to use your forums in violation of your rules and I will run around the internet calling your group a cult"
I have already isolated your point from the re-post of your original post. And all you said was that we were supposedly a cult because:
1. We have anonymous moderators.
2. We don't all paste our financial information everywhere.
You said that these two things alone made us a cult. And you stated we have abused membership. Which is nonsense. There are people whining about being banned from forums for trolling all over the internet. That does not make any organization that denies people access to their forums a cult.
You are saying that you agree with Mr. Ross, but Mr. Ross made it clear that nothing you are suggesting makes us a cult is even relevant.
Re: The Zeitgeist Movement (TZM)
Posted by:
VTV
()
Date: March 03, 2011 10:22AM
Quote
corboy
To balance the orthodox Christian assessment of Acharya S given above, here is a discussion of Acharya S among persons who are sympathetic to gnostic or mythicist views on Christ/Christianaity-- but have reservations about her opus.
[www.skepticforum.com]
What’s with Acharya S.
Share your thoughts on the written word.
Post a reply7 posts • Page 1 of 1
What’s with Acharya S.
Post #1 by Chadvoodoo » Wed May 11, 2005 4:54 am
I just ordered the book ‘Suns of God: Krishna, Buddha & Christ Unveiled’ and am looking forward to reading it. I had previously read parts of her book ‘The Christ Conspiracy; The Greatest Story Ever Sold’ and enjoyed it very much. The Author- Acharya S.- writes well and the length and breadth of her knowledge in the area of myth, religion and history seams inexhaustible.
But a couple of things about her and her books send up red flags:
1)Her books are published by Adventures Unlimited Press, a firm that has an extensive catalog of what I can best describe as “fringe” books (conspiracy stuff, books on Atlantis, U.F.O.’s, etc.).
2)Her webpage- [www.truthbeknown.com] - has a certain “new agey” feel that I find inconsistent with her being a self professed skeptic and critical thinker. To be more specific, she professes a belief in U.F.O. and aliens (while admitting that she can not prove it). And in such essays on her website as ‘Mysteries of the World’ she celebrates some fantastic cosmic anomalies she claims science cannot explain--all the while labeling debunkers and skeptics as “dogmatic and dull”.
In my way of thinking, (and I could be wrong) to hold religion and the belief in a personal god up to such rigid and thought provoking scrutiny and then let the U.F.O. klatch off the hook is a bit inconsistent. It’s like condemning the eating of candy and then binging on donuts!
What I’m wondering is how Acharya S. is regarded by scholars in the area of myth and religion? How well regarded is she by other professionals in both the skeptic community and the ancient studies community?
Again, even though she seems dead on as far as the subject of the origins of Christianity is concerned; the fact that she doesn’t have a more mainstream publisher worries me a little bit.“Man will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest” - Denis Diderot
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Post #2 by Colonel Hogan » Fri May 13, 2005 7:27 pm
I don't believe "Acharya S." is regarded at all by the Biblical scholarship community. I think she is probably a Wiccan feminist -- she makes some good arguments but basically she rehashes Wheless constantly.
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Post #3 by Richard Spencer » Fri Jul 15, 2005 7:56 am
Acharya S. is one of many new authors who have written on the subject of Jesus and his pagan predecessors. The result of these works has generally been to present Jesus as a myth and not a person who lived in history. The bulk of their arguments typically rests on comparing essential elements of the story of Jesus with similar instances in pagan mythology. The problem with these works should be obvious to skeptics; we've got a lot of people quoting each other and producing a lot of literature, but we rarely get any primary sources. Starting with authors like Gerald Massey and Kersey Graves, you end up getting a lot of interesting speculation, but little substance and enough scholarly errors to cast a dubious shadow on the entire genre.
These kinds of works typically end up serving as a bridge to some other "weird" beliefs. For example, Timothy Freke and Peter Gandy's "The Jesus Mysteries" was a very important book for me in leaving Christianity, but based on their more recent works, I can see a pattern developing something like this... (and this is not directed entirely or exclusively at Freke and Gandy, but is directed more at the genre)
1. Christianity as it exists in the world today is not literally accurate
2. Thanks to our scholarship and research, we have uncovered certain principles at work in the religions that influenced Christianity and early Gnosticism before it was corrupted
3. These principles are mystic truths and should be explored/experienced today
In other words, they're debunking Christianity - but they are doing so in order to use the popularity of Christianity to provide the foundation of their own mysticism. This can be done because they act as if they have located the genuine heart of truth that birthed Christianity. Even Elaine Pagels seems to have wondered slightly into this problem in her book on the Gospel of Thomas.
Acharya S's works, as you have noted Chad, seem to push deeply into this territory.
It is unfortunate that Acharya S seems to have become known as a current "scholar" who supports mythicist theories about Jesus. Her other theories place her well into the fringe and thereby make mythicists appear to be on the fringe. If I were you Chad, I would rest "Suns of God" on my bookshelf and pick up The Jesus Puzzle by Earl Dougherty or the many works of G.A. Wells on Jesus and the New Testament.
Nevertheless, the astrotheological influences on Christianity are certainly intersting to study. Just be warned - it risky to believe something simply because Acharya S says so.Richard Spencer
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Re: What’s with Acharya S.
Post #4 by NoMan » Tue Jul 19, 2005 1:50 am
Look at Acharya's references. Many of them are old Theosophists from Blavatsky's circle. I have to credit her, she does manage to find obscure references and historical arguments that faded away. However, she also tends to ignore a lot of new scholarship in the area. A few thoughts of mine:
1.) Her repeated citations from 100 year old books is a common tactic used by people who do not write well. If a book is over so many years, no permission is necessary to use it, the book can be quoted word for word as long as the original author is credited.
2.) She does embrace many of the stranger theories that float about. She does not agree with Zacharia Sitchin, but holds many opinions that float in the same arena as him. She reminds me greatly of David Icke.
3.) She is lacking on credentials. Her only credential is an undergrad in mythology. She doesn't say what level that undergrad is either, two year or four years?
4.) She uses some very spurious sources. Particularly, her repeated use of Barbara Walker in her online rants. Walker is a femi-nazi pagan that believes everything wrong in the world can be traced to a white man. Her scholarship is completely lacking. Even people doing Amazon reviews that look up her work find she deliberately falsifies information from her sources. Outside from Walker, most of her sources are going to be old theosophists.
5.) Her tactics resemble Freke & Gandy. They push against Christianity as we know it to substitute it for their gnostic blend of Christianity. She pushes it for a pre-Christian mother-worshipping religion. Skeptics will say, "Why should we overthrow the Pope and then institute the Dhali Lama?" Just note that there is an ideological agenda.
6.) Check Richard Carrier's arguments along these lines:
[www.infidels.org] ... raves.html
He's a historian who has written and researched extensively on this time period. Follow the links at the bottom and you'll get into some more meaty discussions about these types of arguments and the flaws inherent to them.
7.) Having said all that, she isn't that bad for information on Christianity. Just be skeptical about what she says, look for where she gets information from, and compare her work with Dr. Robert Price, Earl Doherty, or G.A. Wells. I mention these three because they do not have any known ideological bias, (except that Price is a H.P. Lovecraft fan).
8.) Which reminds me of one other thing. She seems very uncritical of her sources. In a debate with a Christian on her references, she keeps saying, "Well, so and so said that, so it's not me." For example, that there are 150,000 textual variations on the New Testament. When challenged on it by modern standards there isn't nearly that many, she just repeats it. "So and so said it, it's not me."
Okay. The whole point of being an author and supposedly an expert on a field is to present the wheat from the chaff. If you're just lumping sources together without discrimination, then you're back to the problem that Richard Carrier talked about, the work becomes useless as a reference, since you have to repeat all the research of the person's book in order to find out what is right and what is wrong.
[www.risenjesus.com] ... =acharya-s
Is a two-part rebuttle.NoMan
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Post #5 by Co » Sun Oct 09, 2005 6:26 am
Thank you Richard, Col. Hogan and NoMan. Your comments and feedback were helpful.“Man will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest” - Denis Diderot
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Post #6 by shamrock » Wed May 24, 2006 10:12 pm
I read Acharya's books and enjoyed them. If you read the feedback in the "Emails I have loved" section on her website, you'll encounter a number of people who benefitted from her books: they stopped believing in Christ.You can be skeptical about anything you want to be....except the luck of the Irish!!shamrock
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Book is Bunk
Post #7 by mikeledo » Tue Jan 23, 2007 11:39 pm
Now I will confess I believe that the Bible is based upon a
Acharya's work is not really discussed too much in TZM. The first movie really has nothing to do with the movement's activism.
Re: The Zeitgeist Movement (TZM)
Posted by:
corboy
()
Date: March 03, 2011 10:56PM
Acharya S and Zeitgeist.
From the resume of media appearances given on her own website, Acharya S will give interviews with a wide range of persons. I have bolded verious remarks indicating the attitude toward those who do not share her views.
It must be kept in mind that this list of media appearances goes back long before the Zeitgeist move came 'round. However, Acharya S has given more to Zeitgeist than mere consultancy for the movies.
Radio appearance on Zeitgeist Radio Philadelphia
Acharya S
[stellarhousepublishing.com]
Steller House Publishing is AS' own private publishing firm--her books as noted on the website above are self published.
Acharya S media appearances per her own website as of today
From the resume of media appearances given on her own website, Acharya S will give interviews with a wide range of persons. I have bolded verious remarks indicating the attitude toward those who do not share her views.
It must be kept in mind that this list of media appearances goes back long before the Zeitgeist move came 'round. However, Acharya S has given more to Zeitgeist than mere consultancy for the movies.
Radio appearance on Zeitgeist Radio Philadelphia
http://www.google.com/search?q=acharya+S+%22Zeitgeist+Movement%22+radio&hl=en&source=hp&ie=ISO-8859-1&btnG=SearchQuote
Acharya S on Zeitgeist Movement Philadelphia radioJan 12, 2011 ... Following the big premiere of Peter Joseph's 'Zeitgeist: Moving Forward' on
Saturday, I will be appearing on the radio show of the ...
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Acharya S
[stellarhousepublishing.com]
Steller House Publishing is AS' own private publishing firm--her books as noted on the website above are self published.
Acharya S media appearances per her own website as of today
Quote
On Friday, April 23, 2010, Acharya appeared on the "Just Energy" show with Dr. Rita Louise to discuss her book The Christ Conspiracy and subsequent work in the field of comparative mythology and religion.
According to this timeline for Acharya S, per her own website, she was on a panel discussion for the Zeitgeist movie in 2007
On November 17, 2007, Acharya was one of the panel speakers at the Artivist Film Festival awards for the movie "ZEITGEIST," which won first place. The awards took place at the Egyptian Theater in Hollywood, CA. The film was shown worldwide, as was the panel discussion afterwards
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On Thursday, October 8, 2009, from 9-10 PM EST/6-7 PM PST, Acharya appeared on Jay Weidner's "Smoke and Mirrors" radio show.
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On Monday, September 28, 2009, from 10-11 PM EST/7-8 PM PST, Acharya appeared on the X-Zone with Rob McConnell out of Canada and heard around the world both on the net and on radio stations listed on his website.
The X-Zone
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On Wednesday, September 9, 2009, from 4:00-5:00 PM EST/1:00-4:00 PM PST. Acharya appeared on the ZEITGEIST Movement radio show with Peter Joseph. Peter and Acharya discussed various issues concerning the first part of the original "ZEITGEIST" movie, with an eye to whether or not this segment on comparative religion and mythology has been "debunked" or "challenged" in any meaningful way.
The ZEITGEIST Movement Bi-Weekly Radio ShowThe show is archived here:
On April 9, 2009 at 8:00 PM EST/5:00 PM PST, Acharya appeared for an encore presentation on "The Infidel Guy Radio Show" with Reg Finley. They will be discussing her new book Christ in Egypt, specifically as concerns the Pagan origins of Easter. Come join them in the live chat room!
Infidel Guy Radio Show
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On April 3, 2009 at 11:00 PM EST/8:00 PM PST, Acharya appeared on "Truth or Fiction?" discussing various aspects of her work, including some of the more esoteric material, as well as her new book. This show is archived, so have a listen!
Truth or Fiction? with Acharya S
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On Thursday, March 26, 2009 from 8:00 to 9:00 PM EST/5:00 to 6:00 PM PST, Acharya appeared on the Infidel Guy Show with Reg Finley. Acharya and Reg discussed Christ in Egypt as well as the assorted criticisms of the Jesus-myth hypothesis. The Infidel Guy Show This show is archived as well.
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Check out Acharya's interview with Jan Irvin of Gnostic Media, recorded on March 7, 2009. Acharya's detailed description of the contents of her book Christ in Egypt: The Horus-Jesus Connection runs for two hours!
Christ in Egypt: An Interview with D.M. Murdock/Acharya S
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On October 12, 2008, at 9:30 PM EST/6:30 PM PST, Acharya appeared on the "Shadows in the Dark" program with Jeremiah Greer.
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Beginning August 7, 2008, Acharya co-hosted her own show with Robert W. Morgan on his American Anthropological Research Foundation program. The bi-monthly show began at 10:00 PM EST/7:00 PM PST.
AARF Presents "The Magical Mystery School"
Here is our schedule:
August 7 and 21
September 4
October 2 and 16
Listen to the archived shows!
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On Thursday, July 31, 2008, from 8:00-9:00 PM EST/5:00-6:00 PM PST, Acharya appeared on Len Osanic's "Black Op Radio" show.
We discussed some of the news regarding Christianity and the Bible, such as:
* The tablet with the motif of the resurrection three days after death
* The oldest complete Bible being put online, as found in Egypt
* The PBS special airing in November that questions the historicity of the Bible
Be sure to listen! The show is archived later as #385.
[www.blackopradio.com]
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On Thursday, July 24, 2008 from 11:00 to 12:00 PM PST/8:00 PM to 9:00 AM EST, Acharya appeared on the Jeff Rense show.
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On Sunday, June 22, 2008, from 11:00 AM to 12:00 PM EST/8:00 to 9:00 AM PST, Acharya appeared on the "Robin Zodiac Show" discussing "ZEITGEIST," my work and the summer solstice.
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On Thursday, June 19, 2008, from 10:00-11:00 PM EST/7:00-8:00 PM PST, Acharya appeared on Rob McConnell's show on X-Zone Radio. This show is heard on many radio stations as well as around the world via the net.
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On Thursday, April 24, 2008 from 9:00 to 10:00 PM PST/12:00 PM to 1:00 AM EST (4/25), Acharya appeared on the Jeff Rense show. The title of Acharya's segment is "Organized Religions Exposed." --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
On Thursday, March 13, 2008, from 9:00 to 10:00 PM PST/12:00 PM to 1:00 AM EST (3/14), Acharya appeared on the Jeff Rense show. The title of Acharya's segment is "The Nightmare of Religion." --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Acharya's new interview with Abraxas/Miguel is archived at The Acharya Chronicles. My interview starts 13 minutes into the show. Following Miguel's email concerning this show about Acharya's new book Who Was Jesus? Fingerprints of The Christ.
The Savior has been born…wait…maybe he never was born. Could all the contradictions and anachronisms in the Bible, lack of historical data, absent archeological evidence, Church Father silence and even the
Gnostic Scriptures be in reality pointing to a mythic godman, a patchwork hero with a thousand theologies? Is there really any first century proof indicating there was anything close to a first century Galilean Rabbi? We take on this herculean task in a CSI manner and attempt to find if there is a man behind the legend at all.
Astral Guest-Acharya S, author of Who Was Jesus? Fingerprints of The Christ, Suns of God and The Christ Conspiracy.
Topics Discussed:
--How the Canonical Gospels damn the notion of a historical Jesus by their language, context and message.
--Contradictions and anachronisms in the four Gospels mostly overlooked until now.
--The deterioration of Biblical scholarship since the 19th Century.
--Proof that most of the New Testament was written late in the Second Century by men far removed from any alleged character named Jesus.
--How the Gnostic Gospels and Heretics themselves point to a mythic being instead of a carnal savior.
--New parallels between Jesus and other rising/dying godmen.
--Why archeology points completely against the backdrop of the Jesus saga.
And much more!
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On Saturday, December 22, 2007 at 12:00 PM EST/10:00 AM MST/9:00 AM PST, Acharya appeared on the public radio show "Camp Lovewave" with Terran Lovewave. The show can be heard through the "Listen Live" button on KSFR.org. This show is also archived at Public Radio Exchange.
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On Friday, December 7, 2007 from 10:00-11:00 PM EST/7:00-8:00 PM PST, Acharya appeared on Rob McConnell's show on X-Zone Radio. This show is heard on many radio stations as well as around the world via the net.
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***On Thursday, December 6, 2007, Acharya appeared on the Black Op radio show with Len Osanic. The show is archived and will be available until late 2008. In addition to addressing the hit viral movie phenomenon "ZEITGEIST," this show contains an unusual discussion of mysteries and mystical concepts.
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On November 17, 2007, Acharya was one of the panel speakers at the Artivist Film Festival awards for the movie "ZEITGEIST," which won first place. The awards took place at the Egyptian Theater in Hollywood, CA. The film was shown worldwide, as was the panel discussion afterwards.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
On Tuesday, October 30, 2007, beginning at 12:00 AM EST/9:00 PM PST, Acharya appeared on the Alan Colmes Radio Show out of New York City. Famed for his role as liberal foil to conservative Sean Hannity on FOX's "Hannity & Colmes," Alan's past guests include Richard Dawkins and Sam Harris. This program was heard via the internet and on various radio stations around the country. For a list of radio stations near you that will carry the show, please see the Alan Colmes Radio Show. With your ongoing support, we can stir up more major media interest in Acharya's work!
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Acharya's various appearances on Abraxas's "Coffee, Cigarettes & Gnosis" can be found at The Acharya Chronicles.
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On Tuesday, January 9, 2007, from 11:00 to 12:00 P.M. PST/8:00 to 9:00 P.M. PST, Acharya appeared on Rob McConnell's radio show "The X-Zone" out of Ontario, Canada. The show can be heard around the world through the net as well.
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On Wednesday, October 25, 2006, from 11:00 to 12:00 P.M. PST/8:00 to 9:00 P.M. PST, Acharya appeared on Rob McConnell's radio show "The X-Zone" out of Ontario, Canada. The show can be heard around the world through the net as well.
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On Friday, September 1, 2006, from 8:00 to 9:00 PM EST/5:00 to 6:00 PM PST, Acharya S appeared with Dr. Robert Price on Reg Finley's "Infidel Guy" radio program. It was a fabulous show that was archived for your perusal.
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On Wednesday, August 9, 2006, from 4:00-4:30 PM EST, and on Thursday at 10:00 AM and 4:00 PM EST, Acharya appeared on the Mark Mythos show on FreethoughtRadio.com. Archives may be coming soon.
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On Sunday, June 11, 2006 and June 18, 2006, at 20 minutes after the hour of 3PM PST/5PM CST/6PM EST, my interview with Miguel Connor debuted on Freethoughtmedia.com To hear the interview in "real time," go to Freethoughtmedia.com and click on "Now Playing." Miguel has posted a clip of the interview at: [www.freethoughtmedia.com] This interview is more in depth than most of the past ones, because Miguel has a great deal of knowledge of the subject matter, so I was able to "cut loose," so to speak. (As much as one can "cut loose" with the subject matter, which encompasses numerous aspects of religion, mythology and Gnosticism.) Please tune in!
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On Sunday, May 28, 2006, from 11 PM to 1:00 AM EST/8-10 PM PST, Acharya appeared on Hehpsehboah's "Eye on the Future" out of Canada.
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On Monday, May 22, 2006, from 1-2:00 AM EST/10-11:00 PM PST, Acharya appeared on Rob McConnell's X-Zone out of Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. If your local radio station is not carrying The 'X' Zone, the show can be heard on the Internet at www.talkstarradio.com or [pioneer.rolo.net].
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On Tuesday, January 31, 2006, from midnight to 1:00 A.M. EST, Acharya appeared on Rob McConnell's X-Zone out of Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. The show is broadcast on the TalkStar Radio Network. If your local radio station is not carrying The 'X' Zone, the show can be heard on the Internet at www.talkstarradio.com or [pioneer.rolo.net].
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On December 23, 2005, from 10:00 PM-11:00 PM PST/1:00 AM-2:00 AM EST, Acharya appeared on the "Gnosis or Psychosis" show out of Tucson, AZ. This show is broadcast locally on 1330 AM, KJLL.
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On Monday, December 12, 2005, from 11:00 PM to 1:00 AM EST/8:00PM to 10:00 PM PST, Acharya appeared on Hehpsehboah's "Eye on the Future" show on Paltalk. This show was one of a kind, as, outside the net, few opportunities exist to discuss openly the subjects of God, religion, the state of the world and other highly relevant issues.
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On Monday, November 21,2005, from 7:00-8:00 PM PST/10:00-11:00 EST, Acharya appeared on Rob McConnell's X-Zone out of Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. The show is broadcast on the TalkStar Radio Network. If your local radio station is not carrying The 'X' Zone, the show can be heard on the Internet at www.talkstarradio.com or [pioneer.rolo.net].
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John Daly, former host of "Real TV" and HGTV's "House Detective" interviewed Acharya during the week of November 13, 2005. Click on Podcasts. It's the November 20th "Christ Conspiracy" interview. This Daly interview is easily accessed, short and to the point, outlining my basic work in a clear and concise manner. If you've never heard me before, this show is for you!
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An online video interview of Acharya is available at the Broadband Learning Channel, with some fascinating images and a surprise ending. Enjoy!
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On Monday, December 13, 2004, from 10:00-11:00 PM PST/1:00-2:00 EST, Acharya appeared on Rob McConnell's X-Zone out of Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. The show is broadcast on the TalkStar Radio Network. If your local radio station is not carrying The 'X' Zone, the show can be heard on the Internet at www.talkstarradio.com or [pioneer.rolo.net].
From Rob: The 'X' Zone Radio Show is pleased to announce that we are now on a second satellite. Besides being on Galaxy 4R, we are now available on satellite AMC-4 making The 'X' Zone available to millions of listeners in 50 US States, Canada, Mexico, Caribbean, Central America and South America. You can find The 'X' Zone Radio Show at:
Satellite: AMC-4 101 Degrees W.L.
Transponder: 6 Ku Band
Frequency: 11.807 Ghz
Symbol Rate: 2.713 MSPS
Polarization: Horizontal
Audio: Channel 4, Right
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On Monday, December 13, 2004, from 8:00PM to 10:00 PM PST, Acharya appeared with Dr. Bill Davis on Hehpsehboah's "Eye on the Future" show on Paltalk. This show was one of a kind, as, outside the net, few opportunities exist to discuss openly the subjects of God, religion, the state of the world and other highly relevant issues.
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On Saturday, December 4, 2004, Acharya S spoke at the AUP conference in Sedona, AZ, using a powerpoint illustrated presentation to discuss the comparative mythology as found in her books The Christ Conspiracy and Suns of God: Krishna, Buddha and Christ Unveiled.
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On Friday, November 26, 2004 at 11:30 PM to 1 AM EST/8:30-10 PM, Acharya S appeared on "The Night Side" with Richard Syrett out of Toronto. The show can be listened to at MOJO Radio, AM 640.
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On October 28, 2004, from 9:00-10:00 PM PST/12:00-1:00 EST, Acharya appeared on Rob McConnell's X-Zone out of Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. The show is broadcast on the TalkStar Radio Network. If your local radio station is not carrying The 'X' Zone, the show can be heard on the Internet at www.talkstarradio.com or [pioneer.rolo.net].
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On Sunday, September 19, 2004, from 8:00PM to 10:00 PM PST, Acharya appeared on dear friend Hehpsehboah's "Eye on the Future" show on Paltalk--these shows are always excellent. The maverick, iconoclast Hehpsehboah is in need of your support!
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On Tuesday, August 24, 2004, at 4:00 PM PST/7:00 PM EST and 12:00 AM British time (GMT), Acharya S appeared on radio in the UK, on the James Whale show on talkSPORT, "the UK's Number One commercial station."
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On Monday, July 19, 2004, from 10 PM to Midnight CST, 8-10 PM PST, Acharya appeared on Chad Lewis and Terry Fisk's "The Unexplained" on WOLF 108 FM out of Wisconsin.
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In June 2004, Acharya spoke at the AUP conference in Illinois. She presented a new, Powerpoint talk that included research for her newly released book, Suns of God: Krishna, Buddha and Christ Unveiled.
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In March, around Easter time, Acharya S appeared ion the ever-so-blasphemous Clyde Lewis's show. She also appeared on Hehspehboah's show.
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On Friday, February 27, 2004 at 11:30 PM to 1 AM EST/8:30-10 PM, Acharya S appeared on "The Night Side" with Richard Syrett out of Toronto. The show can be listened to at MOJO Radio, AM 640.
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On Friday, January 30, 2004, Acharya appeared again on Hehpsehboah's "Eye on the Future" show on Paltalk--these shows are always excellent.
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On Saturday, January 17, 2004, from 12-1 PM EST/9-10 AM PST, Acharya S appeared on ZSun-nee's show "The Power" on XM-Satellite, channel 169, discussing the Christ Con and other religious/mythological topics. AS appeared on ZSun-nee's show on January 10th as well, and it was a very pleasant experience, as her audience is open and intelligent.
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On Friday, January 16, 2004, at 10 PM PST, Acharya was on the Clyde Lewis's "Ground Zero" show criticizing the Religious Right's play for power. Clyde is very passionate about separating religion from politics and has been many interesting articles on his site.
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On Thursday, December 11, 2003, Acharya S's friend James Arthur mentioned her on the Coast to Coast radio program with George Noory (formerly Art Bell's show). You can help Acharya become a guest on Coast to Coast by recommending her to the producer, whose email address CoastProducer@aol.com. Thank you!!
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Beginning with Thursday, December 4, 2003, from 1 to 3 PM PST, Acharya S had several dates on the "Eye on the Future" show out of Canada hosted by internationally renowned prophet, messenger, healer and humanitarian Hehpsehboah, on the Paltak Radio Network, which claims to have 22 million users worldwide. Other dates include Monday, December 29th from 7 to 9 PM PST and Sunday, January 11th from 8 to 10 PM PST. The show may be listened to live at Paltalk, Other URLs include www.paltalkradio.com/radioguide.html#5 and www.thecosmicenergyexperience.com/ If anyone wish to speak to me during these shows, he or she will require a microphone...
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On Sunday, November 16, 2003 at 11 AM PST and 9 PM in South Africa, Acharya S appeared on Talk Radio 702 and 567CAPETALK. The show, "Believe It Or Not," hosted by Kate Turkington, is "the longest running radio programme with the same host in South Africa." "It is a spiritually, ethically and philosophically-based programme," with a "large and informed audience in southern Africa." Past guests have included Archbishop Desmond Tutu and Deepak Chopra. This show will be Acharya's first international radio program. Contact info: Tel: 27 83 702 4250; e-mail: nicke@702.co.za. The show can be listened to live at www.702.co.za. It will also be archived. Please listen!
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On Sunday, January 26, 2003 from 10:30 to 12:00 PM EST/7:30 to 9:00 PM PST, Acharya S discussed her Christ Conspiracy work on "The Night Side" with Richard Syrett. The show appeared on Toronto's CFRB 1010 AM and may be listened to through CFRB.com. Please tune in to show your support for the courageous radio host who dares to have me on!
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After a long hiatus, on December 1, 2002 at 3 PM EST, Acharya S appeared on Dr. Kanya's show on BlakeRadio.com. She addresses various issues, including the fiction that "Jesus" was a groovy guru who was educated in and traveled to India.
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On November 21, 2001, at 8-9 PM EST, AS appeared on the Infidel Guy's radio show, rebutting recent "refutations" by so-called experts who claim that Acharya should not be appearing in the media. This show is archived. Tapes of my shows may be ordered at the Infidel Guy order link.
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On September 19, 2001, 9:00-11:00PM PST, Acharya appeared on the Lou Gentile show. Lou has been featured on several well-known programs, and styles himself a "demonologist." This show, which was available not only through radio affiliates but also via the Net, satellite and shortwave, is archived. Unfortunately, Lou chose to follow the show with an assault on me by a used-religion salesman.
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On August 11, 2001, Acharya taped a couple of shows with Mark Mythos of Freethought Radio - they should be archived.
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On Tuesday, July 17, 2001, at 9-10 PM EST, Acharya appeared on Robert W. Morgan's Net radio show at ArtistFirst.com. Morgan's been a bud for years. This show was a DOOZY - it was probably never archived, however, because the management apparently blames Acharya for singlehandedly destroying their network!!
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On Wednesday, July 11, 2001, at 4:00-5:00 AM EST, Acharya S appeared on Rob McConnell's The X-Zone at 103.7 FM CFBU, Ontario, Canada. The (slow-loading) site has Net radio access.
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On Sunday, June 10, 2001, at 6:30 PM EST, Acharya S appeared on Dennis Bossack's "UFO Lab" on WBLQ 88.1 FM out of Westerly, Rhode Island.
Archaeologist, historian, mythologist and linguist Acharya S discussed her book The Christ Conspiracy: The Greatest Story Ever Sold," as well as her new book Suns of God: Krishna, Buddha and Christ Unveiled. In both these books, Acharya shows that Jesus Christ is a mythical character, based on older deities found around the "known world," including Krishna and Buddha.
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In May 2001, Acharya spoke at the AUP conference in Illinois. She presented a new talk that included new research for her latest book, Suns of God: Krishna, Buddha and Christ Unveiled.
Adventures Unlimited and the World Explorers Club Conference
May 4, 5 and 6, 2001
NEW SCIENCE & ANCIENT WISDOM
A three-day gala event in Kempton, Illinois, featuring an inclusive brunch on May 6 of the year 2001.
Guest Speakers:
David Hatcher Childress: Atlantis, Ancient Technology & the New Millennium
Christopher Dunn: The Giza Power Plant: Latest Discoveries
Kenn Thomas: On the Trail of the Octopus
Acharya S: Ancient Mystery Schools and the Christ Conspiracy
Jerry Smith: Tesla Beam Weapons and HAARP and more discussion between speakers.
Tel: 1-800-718-4514, 815-253-9000, 815-253-6390 or Fax: 815-253-6300.
For more information, please see the AUP website or write to auphq@frontiernet.
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On January 26, 2001, at 8-9 PM EST, AS appeared on the Infidel Guy's radio show.
As part of the Christ Conspiracy series, author Acharya S discussed the research for her forthcoming book, Suns of God: Krishna, Buddha and Christ Unveiled. Suns of God explores in detail the religion of the ancients - astrotheology, or astrology that constituted the major theology globally for thousands of years - and includes discussion of certain points raised by critics of her book The Christ Conspiracy.
Acharya talks about some of the numerous sources, dating from before or early into the Christian era, who definitively state that the worship of the ancients revolved around the sun, moon, planets and stars. In other words, such luminaries were their gods, or aspects of the divine source of all things, often considered to be the sun, or identified with the sun. For those who would like to follow the lead, there is an almost exhaustless body of literature on this subject that proves that these ancients gods, including our most familiar and beloved of today, were astrotheological in origin, not "real people." Included in this discussion of critics is insight into what motivates them, and how numerous people think that reading one encyclopedia article makes them an expert on the subject.
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On November 11, 2000, from 11-11:45 EST, Acharya S appeared on Rob McConnell's "The X-Zone" out of Canada. Rob and Acharya always have a blast together. Try this X-Zone link as well.
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On November 9, 2000, at 8-9 PM EST, Acharya S appeared on the very cool Infidel Guy's radio show, discussing various blasphemous issues, such as Christ Con.
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From May 4 to 6, Acharya S appeared in Kempton, Illinois, speaking at Adventures Unlimited Press's "5/5/2000" conference. A great time was had by all!
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On March 11, 2000, from 11:55 p.m. to 1 a.m. EST, Acharya S appeared once again on Rob McConnell's X-Zone.
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On October 23, 1999 from 7-10 EST, AS appeared on Rob McConnell's X-Zone, to debate Glenn Kimball regarding the nonhistoricity of Jesus.
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On October 5, 1999, 9-11 PM PST, Acharya S appeared on the radio show Erskine Overnight, out of Arizona.
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On September 25, 1999, Acharya appeared on Rob McConnell's The X-Zone from 7-10 EST.
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On September 17, 1999, Acharya S addressed the San Diego chapter of the Art Bell Chat Club, discussing The Christ Conspiracy, using excerpts in a talk entitled "Astrotheology and the Global Civilization."
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On September 4, 1999, Acharya appeared on Rob McConnell's The X-Zone from 8-10 PST, picking up the previous week's discussion/debate concerning The Christ Conspiracy.
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On August 29, 1999, AS appeared with Kenn Thomas on Rob McConnell's The X-Zone from 9-11 PST. They discussed the release of her new book The Christ Conspiracy: The Greatest Story Ever Sold.
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On August 18, 1999, at 7:10 Hawaii time, AS appeared once again on Forrest Brown's cable TV show, Bible Phonies, discussing the astrotheology of the Bible.
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On July 12, 1999, AS appeared once again her good bud Don Ecker's Strange Daze radio show. They got a little rowdy this time around, ad-glibbing and the rest, but basically discussing astrotheology, crop circles, the infamous Shroud of Turin.
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On June 30, 1999, at 11:05 PM PST, AS appeared on Forrest Brown's Bible Phonies, a cable TV show in Hawaii.
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On June 7, 1999, from 9-midnight PST, AS appeared on Don Ecker's Strange Daze radio show, discussing her new book The Christ Conspiracy: The Greatest Story Ever Sold
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On May 4, 1999, AS, Kenn Thomas, Rob Sterling and Greg Bishop appeared on Richard Metzger's Infinity Factory from 1-2 PM PST.
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On April 20, 1999, conspiracy expert Kenn Thomas appeared on the Art Bell show and mentioned Acharya's work several times.
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On April 13, 1999, AS appeared on Don Ecker's show "Strange Daze" on Liberty Works Radio from 9-12 PM PST.
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On Friday, April 9, 1999, AS appeared on Pat Campbell's show in Steubenville, OH, on WSTV from 10:30-noon CST, preceding the Rush show.
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On Monday, March 1, 1999, AS appeared on Don Ecker's show "Strange Daze" on Liberty Works Radio from 9-12 PM PST.
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On Monday, February 22, 1999, along with Greg Bishop, Rob Sterling, AS briefly appeared on Cartoon Pleroma, and on Tuesday, February 22nd, Kenn Thomas and she were on Bob Hieronymus's show on Liberty Works Radio.
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On Monday, January 18, 1999, Acharya S appeared on Rob Larson's show on KUCI, the University of California at Irvine, 88.9 FM, from 7-8 p.m. On Sunday, January 10th, Acharya S appeared with Kenn Thomas, author of The Octopus, on Rob McConnell's "X-Zone" out of Canada.
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On Sunday, October 11, 1998, Acharya S appeared on Richard Metzger's Infinity Factory from 5-6 PM PST. Metzger's show and website are very popular with the conspiracy crowd, so she presented the greatest conspiracy of them all: religion, in particular Christianity. This show is archived.
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In June and July 1998, Acharya appeared on the radio in Mississippi, the Real Rick James show on 96.5 FM, "The Hub."
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On May 27, 1998, Acharya S appeared on the national radio program "Sightings on the Radio" with Jeff Rense. She discussed the origins of religion and the Christian myth. The tongue-in-cheek part about experiencing "beings" really gets the Christians' knickers in a twist. (A friend was in the room, egging me on, so she wasn't lying about "beings" telling her to do what she's doing.)
Re: The Zeitgeist Movement (TZM)
Posted by:
Prometheuspan
()
Date: March 04, 2011 01:56AM
"2. We don't need to apologize. Nobody was rude to you. You read and agreed to the rules of the forum when you came. You violated them. "
By pointing out that your cult is cultish? He was trying to help you not be evil. Kind of a double bind. Its breaking the rules to criticize? thats the problem.
"3. TZM is not a cult. And there is no abuse. So this is not nessacary. "
TZM is a cult, and it is abusive, and so it is entirely called for.
"As for your last statement, this basically reads exactly as the various threats we have received from trolls in the past. Let me translate your veiled threat:
"Fail to allow me to use your forums in violation of your rules and I will run around the internet calling your group a cult""
No, and for you to distort it and spin it that way only again proves that you have no conscience and no integrity and are willing to transparently lie
when you have no argument.
"I have already isolated your point from the re-post of your original post. And all you said was that we were supposedly a cult because:
1. We have anonymous moderators.
2. We don't all paste our financial information everywhere. "
Two good red flags allright.
"You said that these two things alone made us a cult. And you stated we have abused membership. Which is nonsense. There are people whining about being banned from forums for trolling all over the internet. That does not make any organization that denies people access to their forums a cult. "
It is the reasons why you ban people that makes it a cult. You ban people for merely pointing out that you are ad homming.
"You are saying that you agree with Mr. Ross, but Mr. Ross made it clear that nothing you are suggesting makes us a cult is even relevant."
I think mr ross should be allowed to speak for himself without you distorting it and I think as he gets a clearer picture of you hes going to realize that hes been suckered by you in those conversations.
TZM Is in fact a cult and this response frankly is another fascinating proof of your own cult mentality.
By pointing out that your cult is cultish? He was trying to help you not be evil. Kind of a double bind. Its breaking the rules to criticize? thats the problem.
"3. TZM is not a cult. And there is no abuse. So this is not nessacary. "
TZM is a cult, and it is abusive, and so it is entirely called for.
"As for your last statement, this basically reads exactly as the various threats we have received from trolls in the past. Let me translate your veiled threat:
"Fail to allow me to use your forums in violation of your rules and I will run around the internet calling your group a cult""
No, and for you to distort it and spin it that way only again proves that you have no conscience and no integrity and are willing to transparently lie
when you have no argument.
"I have already isolated your point from the re-post of your original post. And all you said was that we were supposedly a cult because:
1. We have anonymous moderators.
2. We don't all paste our financial information everywhere. "
Two good red flags allright.
"You said that these two things alone made us a cult. And you stated we have abused membership. Which is nonsense. There are people whining about being banned from forums for trolling all over the internet. That does not make any organization that denies people access to their forums a cult. "
It is the reasons why you ban people that makes it a cult. You ban people for merely pointing out that you are ad homming.
"You are saying that you agree with Mr. Ross, but Mr. Ross made it clear that nothing you are suggesting makes us a cult is even relevant."
I think mr ross should be allowed to speak for himself without you distorting it and I think as he gets a clearer picture of you hes going to realize that hes been suckered by you in those conversations.
TZM Is in fact a cult and this response frankly is another fascinating proof of your own cult mentality.
Re: The Zeitgeist Movement (TZM)
Posted by:
DavidWish
()
Date: March 04, 2011 02:03AM
Prometheuspan,
Welcome to the Rick Ross forum. I can see that TZM and Neil have greatly upset you. I have read it is normal for a mentally healthy person to temporarily over react and be unreasonable, when faced with the irrational choices of others. I have read through some of your links and I am sorry you have gone through so much pain with this abusive cult. I should point out that a person should return to normal behavior within a short time once they have had time to really think things through. I agree with you 100% that TZM is an abusive cult. I do not agree with all the name calling and insults directed at people. If I may, I would like to appeal to your reasonable side. It doesn’t serve anyone here well, to be reading insults from one person about another person. I politely ask that your edit or remove all the comments you posted on other pages that are about personally insulting people, even if they are somewhat factual. We are trying to make things better here, not worse. I understand you were basically alone and did what you had to do to keep your sanity. At this point, you are in recovery and there are wonderful resources here on recovery.
[culteducation.com]
You make a lot of interesting points about education. Yes, many people with an education still behave incorrectly. However, at this location, they use their education to help others in the most profound ways. From what I understand, you are always supposed to treat others with basic human respect.
One of my recent life lessons is that you cannot respect others while helping them to disrespect themselves. I am getting old and just learning this stuff, so I am anything but Joe Pro. I know I have been personally abusive and out of line in my life on many occasions. I see fairly clearly now that most of my personal problems are the direct result of my own bad behavior in not always respecting others and treating others correctly. There is complicity on my behalf in most of my own problems. I would like you to avoid this hole, if you can.
I understand how frustrating it can be to see people you care about being mentally controlled and abused. It is irrational for them to behave in such a callus way. As a result, most will respond, somewhat, irrationally at first. You are a safe from the BS now. I hope you find some peace and safety here. None of us are perfect and we do not expect perfection. It is one step at a time. Making a fire bigger, so that others can see the fire, sometimes leads to the fire getting out of control. You are not alone now and there are people here who are better experienced to handle the situation.
The facts of your experience with TZM should be a clear warning sign to all about how unrealistic they are, and ill-equipped, to work with others with different mental abilities and thought patterns. They have a dream, but in reality, they have no workable plan. They operate with strict control of discussion and they have no actual workable plan. This is a recipe for disaster.
I am indebted to those that have worked hard at educating themselves in this cultist/abusive area and sharing the information. It seems almost everywhere you look, TZM is red flagged for some improper behavior towards their fellow person. The known facts now about how the leaders have little certified education between them, is another red flag. Directing people correctly requires proper education. Natural talent is great, but people in the position of directing others can always benefit from the proper education. It does not hurt to possibly relearn what you already know and they/us might learn something important that we missed, if we just managed to get that education before leading others.
I have a friend that leads and directs a few different organizations. This friend has a degree and is paid for their expertise in setting up the proper checks and balances required to work with people at a social level. It is a serious job and they have the education to do it correctly. There are never issues such as this that come about in any of the organizations they have set up. When there are problems, there is almost always a plan in place already to resolve the issue, whatever it may be. They trained and educated for this “important” task of working “with” people. It is of no surprise that TZM has the issues they have. They lack the proper understanding, most probably, because they do not have the proper education in directing others.
Neil, aka VTV,
Banning someone from a forum is not cultist abuse. I agree with this.
Being an abusive cult, as TZM is and was, and then banning someone for stating it, is exactly an abusive cult banning someone. I had already called out TZM for cultist abuse in that thread and rightly so.
I am not insulting you. It starts with each of us fixing our own issues. I have mine, you have yours, etc. You can do better and offer more if you would stop and realize that you do not have the proper expertise and education at directing others. It is big responsibility and others should not be an experiment for you to learn things about your own current shortfalls in communication. The real professionals work with each other and it is apart of their teaching that it is required to have a common consensus where possible, educate each other, share what they have learned, etc. It is regrettable and irresponsible choice when others think they have what takes to direct others, unilaterally and/or with the help of other uneducated people, and actually do not.
You are lucky guy Neil. You are still relatively young and can learn from this experience. It may take years to get it all worked out, but you will be “you” once you do. That is all I want for you or anyone else.
Why would you want others to be you and see things your way? Did you ever think that perhaps the choices we make are all that really matter? It does not matter if a person does something for one reason or another, so long as the proper choice is made and made for a healthy reason. The individual is what is real. Each has their own perception of this world and each is entitled to that. I think I can speak for most when I say, we do not want a world of the controlling views of one or a few people being shoved down our throats. We will never accept that.
As futile and hopeless as it may seem, there is hope and help available. You should read through this entire website, not just the forum. I have seen many terrible traits associated with people doing wrong that I have been guilty of. It is one step at a time for me too. One of the most painful things I have had to face is my own bad choices. We all can make better choices if we try and are lucky enough to have the proper educational material and support. Hurting others, whether intentional or not, is going to cause a healthy mind, guilt. With guilt, comes pain. It is required that we acknowledge our wrong doings. It is required that we apologize with a detailed explanation to prove we have learned and understand, if possible. It is required that we make better choices. Then we can move on in a healthy way.
You have mentioned that I have some sort of agenda to look important, etc., control the dialog, etc. There is some truth to that Neil. However, here, at this place, I am fortunate in that I am not in complete control and others, with more experience in these matters, continue to expose the BS and let me speak my mind. They seem to understand exactly what to do and I am confident they will correct me when required. They do not judge me for being upset. Instead, they post relevant information to further my education in treating people respectfully. I am no different than you Neil. We all can benefit if we care enough to look at our own choices and why we made them.
The reality is that TZM has ideas of what things must be in order to work, but they have no complete practical plan for implementing it. Starting with a blank slate is not realistic.
I have seen on more than one occasion, words from TZM members that our system will imploded, self-destruct, etc., and that is what TZM believes is required for the positive change. I caution everyone who believes this. If such an event or events occur where everything falls apart, the hope is people will work together and fix the problems. This is an extremely and unrealistic proposition. If people do not know how to treat each other properly, if and when the crap hits the fan, the result will probably be automatic gun fire within a few days, as we saw in New Orleans after Katrina.
TZM needs professional help and guidance in directing others. Those that have put in place the system as it now is within TZM, are clearly not qualified at directing others. Hence, it has become an abusive cult. A suggestion would be to put in place a democratic system and properly educated people experienced in the direction of others and for you and all the others, currently in control, to step down.
The above paragraph is idealistic. The realities are that TZM has no thought out and workable plan to accomplish its goals and vision. If you want to only educate others to what things are in the world, as long as you are not abusing people, this is fine. However, TZM asks for the resources of others, abuses others, does not clearly answer legitimate questions, is unable to properly communicate with many people, and is selling an idea that is quite literally, a fairytale.
To say in anyway, that TZM has the actual answers, is an outright lie. Many people have made points that TZM were unable to address. Without answers to the tough questions, there is nothing in TZM, but a dream. People cannot live on dreams. It is just that simple.
Additionally, I point to the fact that there is endless fighting and name calling between the members. In its simplest form, TZM is currently unable to maintain peaceful coexistence between its own members. If the crap hits the fan, TZM will in no way be qualified at directing others through the misery and pain. They will however, be in a position to take advantage of others. That is all they will have and it is not somewhere any healthy mind wants to be, either on the abusive end or the receiving end.
Welcome to the Rick Ross forum. I can see that TZM and Neil have greatly upset you. I have read it is normal for a mentally healthy person to temporarily over react and be unreasonable, when faced with the irrational choices of others. I have read through some of your links and I am sorry you have gone through so much pain with this abusive cult. I should point out that a person should return to normal behavior within a short time once they have had time to really think things through. I agree with you 100% that TZM is an abusive cult. I do not agree with all the name calling and insults directed at people. If I may, I would like to appeal to your reasonable side. It doesn’t serve anyone here well, to be reading insults from one person about another person. I politely ask that your edit or remove all the comments you posted on other pages that are about personally insulting people, even if they are somewhat factual. We are trying to make things better here, not worse. I understand you were basically alone and did what you had to do to keep your sanity. At this point, you are in recovery and there are wonderful resources here on recovery.
[culteducation.com]
You make a lot of interesting points about education. Yes, many people with an education still behave incorrectly. However, at this location, they use their education to help others in the most profound ways. From what I understand, you are always supposed to treat others with basic human respect.
One of my recent life lessons is that you cannot respect others while helping them to disrespect themselves. I am getting old and just learning this stuff, so I am anything but Joe Pro. I know I have been personally abusive and out of line in my life on many occasions. I see fairly clearly now that most of my personal problems are the direct result of my own bad behavior in not always respecting others and treating others correctly. There is complicity on my behalf in most of my own problems. I would like you to avoid this hole, if you can.
I understand how frustrating it can be to see people you care about being mentally controlled and abused. It is irrational for them to behave in such a callus way. As a result, most will respond, somewhat, irrationally at first. You are a safe from the BS now. I hope you find some peace and safety here. None of us are perfect and we do not expect perfection. It is one step at a time. Making a fire bigger, so that others can see the fire, sometimes leads to the fire getting out of control. You are not alone now and there are people here who are better experienced to handle the situation.
The facts of your experience with TZM should be a clear warning sign to all about how unrealistic they are, and ill-equipped, to work with others with different mental abilities and thought patterns. They have a dream, but in reality, they have no workable plan. They operate with strict control of discussion and they have no actual workable plan. This is a recipe for disaster.
I am indebted to those that have worked hard at educating themselves in this cultist/abusive area and sharing the information. It seems almost everywhere you look, TZM is red flagged for some improper behavior towards their fellow person. The known facts now about how the leaders have little certified education between them, is another red flag. Directing people correctly requires proper education. Natural talent is great, but people in the position of directing others can always benefit from the proper education. It does not hurt to possibly relearn what you already know and they/us might learn something important that we missed, if we just managed to get that education before leading others.
I have a friend that leads and directs a few different organizations. This friend has a degree and is paid for their expertise in setting up the proper checks and balances required to work with people at a social level. It is a serious job and they have the education to do it correctly. There are never issues such as this that come about in any of the organizations they have set up. When there are problems, there is almost always a plan in place already to resolve the issue, whatever it may be. They trained and educated for this “important” task of working “with” people. It is of no surprise that TZM has the issues they have. They lack the proper understanding, most probably, because they do not have the proper education in directing others.
Neil, aka VTV,
Banning someone from a forum is not cultist abuse. I agree with this.
Being an abusive cult, as TZM is and was, and then banning someone for stating it, is exactly an abusive cult banning someone. I had already called out TZM for cultist abuse in that thread and rightly so.
I am not insulting you. It starts with each of us fixing our own issues. I have mine, you have yours, etc. You can do better and offer more if you would stop and realize that you do not have the proper expertise and education at directing others. It is big responsibility and others should not be an experiment for you to learn things about your own current shortfalls in communication. The real professionals work with each other and it is apart of their teaching that it is required to have a common consensus where possible, educate each other, share what they have learned, etc. It is regrettable and irresponsible choice when others think they have what takes to direct others, unilaterally and/or with the help of other uneducated people, and actually do not.
You are lucky guy Neil. You are still relatively young and can learn from this experience. It may take years to get it all worked out, but you will be “you” once you do. That is all I want for you or anyone else.
Why would you want others to be you and see things your way? Did you ever think that perhaps the choices we make are all that really matter? It does not matter if a person does something for one reason or another, so long as the proper choice is made and made for a healthy reason. The individual is what is real. Each has their own perception of this world and each is entitled to that. I think I can speak for most when I say, we do not want a world of the controlling views of one or a few people being shoved down our throats. We will never accept that.
As futile and hopeless as it may seem, there is hope and help available. You should read through this entire website, not just the forum. I have seen many terrible traits associated with people doing wrong that I have been guilty of. It is one step at a time for me too. One of the most painful things I have had to face is my own bad choices. We all can make better choices if we try and are lucky enough to have the proper educational material and support. Hurting others, whether intentional or not, is going to cause a healthy mind, guilt. With guilt, comes pain. It is required that we acknowledge our wrong doings. It is required that we apologize with a detailed explanation to prove we have learned and understand, if possible. It is required that we make better choices. Then we can move on in a healthy way.
You have mentioned that I have some sort of agenda to look important, etc., control the dialog, etc. There is some truth to that Neil. However, here, at this place, I am fortunate in that I am not in complete control and others, with more experience in these matters, continue to expose the BS and let me speak my mind. They seem to understand exactly what to do and I am confident they will correct me when required. They do not judge me for being upset. Instead, they post relevant information to further my education in treating people respectfully. I am no different than you Neil. We all can benefit if we care enough to look at our own choices and why we made them.
The reality is that TZM has ideas of what things must be in order to work, but they have no complete practical plan for implementing it. Starting with a blank slate is not realistic.
I have seen on more than one occasion, words from TZM members that our system will imploded, self-destruct, etc., and that is what TZM believes is required for the positive change. I caution everyone who believes this. If such an event or events occur where everything falls apart, the hope is people will work together and fix the problems. This is an extremely and unrealistic proposition. If people do not know how to treat each other properly, if and when the crap hits the fan, the result will probably be automatic gun fire within a few days, as we saw in New Orleans after Katrina.
TZM needs professional help and guidance in directing others. Those that have put in place the system as it now is within TZM, are clearly not qualified at directing others. Hence, it has become an abusive cult. A suggestion would be to put in place a democratic system and properly educated people experienced in the direction of others and for you and all the others, currently in control, to step down.
The above paragraph is idealistic. The realities are that TZM has no thought out and workable plan to accomplish its goals and vision. If you want to only educate others to what things are in the world, as long as you are not abusing people, this is fine. However, TZM asks for the resources of others, abuses others, does not clearly answer legitimate questions, is unable to properly communicate with many people, and is selling an idea that is quite literally, a fairytale.
To say in anyway, that TZM has the actual answers, is an outright lie. Many people have made points that TZM were unable to address. Without answers to the tough questions, there is nothing in TZM, but a dream. People cannot live on dreams. It is just that simple.
Additionally, I point to the fact that there is endless fighting and name calling between the members. In its simplest form, TZM is currently unable to maintain peaceful coexistence between its own members. If the crap hits the fan, TZM will in no way be qualified at directing others through the misery and pain. They will however, be in a position to take advantage of others. That is all they will have and it is not somewhere any healthy mind wants to be, either on the abusive end or the receiving end.
Re: The Zeitgeist Movement (TZM)
Posted by:
corboy
()
Date: March 04, 2011 02:09AM
Google results when Acharya S and Venus Project are put in search slot
[www.google.com]
(quote)About 7,970 results (0.08 seconds)
Search ResultsZeitgeist and Venus Project Links « Zeitgeist Movement ExposedNov 20, 2010 ... “Zeitgeist is a scam and the Venus Project is a Mind Heist” Blog by Anti-Cultist .... ZEITGEIST & The Horus-Jesus Connection By Acharya S At ...
zeitgeistmovements.wordpress.com/.../top-100-zeitgeist-and-venus-project- critical-links/ - Cached►Top Research Authority Dorothy Murdoch aka “Acharya S” - Zeitgeist ...Jan 18, 2011 ... Tagged with acharya s, dm murdoch, zeitgeist, zeitgeist movement, ... Venus Project will be Violent and wants to work with the U.N.-Douglas ...
zeitgeistmovements.wordpress.com/.../zeitgeist-sources-acharya-s/ - CachedThe Venus Project Library - A New World SocietyAug 21, 2009 ... About The Venus Project Local Participation Tools / Support Videos ... by Acharya S Picking up where the bestselling and controversial The ...
anewworldsociety.ning.com/notes/The_Venus_Project_Library - CachedThe Venus Project - Page 4 - boards.ie9 posts - 6 authors - Last post: Aug 31, 2010
The Venus Project After Hours. ... I was talking about Acharya S refutations of Edward Winston's debunking. ...
www.boards.ie › boards.ie › Rec › After Hours - CachedGet more discussion results
Merola: Everyone who doesn't read Acharya S is lazy « Conspiracy ...26 posts - 4 authors
I'm just going to overlook how absurd it is to consider that Acharya S is "rock .... their projects and come work on the venus project because it's the best ...
conspiracyscience.com › ... › Conspiracies › The Zeitgeist MovementGet more discussion results
The Zeitgeist Movement Exposed!Feb 19, 2011 ... presented by Acharya S and Truth Be Known, online since 1995 ... to the sinister silliness being spread about TZM and the Venus Project. ...
www.freethoughtnation.com/...acharya-s/485-the-zeitgeist-movement- exposed.html - CachedTruth Be Known News | Blog of Acharya SA perfect rebuttal to the sinister silliness being spread about TZM and the Venus Project. Posted by Acharya S at 12:35 PM 0 comments · Links to this post ...
tbknews.blogspot.com/ - Cached - SimilarAcharya S address to debunkers - KunenaAcharya S address to debunkers - Educational Material - Audio/Video - Kunena. ... The founder of the venus Project seems to be a devout Atheist wanting to ...
chapters.thezeitgeistmovement.com/tx/index.php?...7... - CachedThe Venus Project(Zeitgeist) = The LUCIFER Project : News & World ...10 posts - 6 authors - Last post: Oct 25, 2010
bravo good for him to man up..and the venus project imo is exactly what we ... especially when you compare acharya s's work to blavatsky's, ...
www.disclose.tv › ... › News & Media › News & World Events - CachedGet more discussion results
Venus Project | Illuminati Conspiracy Archive BlogNov 1, 2010 ... Venus Project's Jacque Fresco Cavorting with the New World Order Elite ... obviously enamored with 'Acharya S' and her occult Theosophical ...
www.conspiracyarchive.com/Blog/?tag=venus-project - Cached - Similar(unquote)
[www.google.com]
(quote)About 7,970 results (0.08 seconds)
Search ResultsZeitgeist and Venus Project Links « Zeitgeist Movement ExposedNov 20, 2010 ... “Zeitgeist is a scam and the Venus Project is a Mind Heist” Blog by Anti-Cultist .... ZEITGEIST & The Horus-Jesus Connection By Acharya S At ...
zeitgeistmovements.wordpress.com/.../top-100-zeitgeist-and-venus-project- critical-links/ - Cached►Top Research Authority Dorothy Murdoch aka “Acharya S” - Zeitgeist ...Jan 18, 2011 ... Tagged with acharya s, dm murdoch, zeitgeist, zeitgeist movement, ... Venus Project will be Violent and wants to work with the U.N.-Douglas ...
zeitgeistmovements.wordpress.com/.../zeitgeist-sources-acharya-s/ - CachedThe Venus Project Library - A New World SocietyAug 21, 2009 ... About The Venus Project Local Participation Tools / Support Videos ... by Acharya S Picking up where the bestselling and controversial The ...
anewworldsociety.ning.com/notes/The_Venus_Project_Library - CachedThe Venus Project - Page 4 - boards.ie9 posts - 6 authors - Last post: Aug 31, 2010
The Venus Project After Hours. ... I was talking about Acharya S refutations of Edward Winston's debunking. ...
www.boards.ie › boards.ie › Rec › After Hours - CachedGet more discussion results
Merola: Everyone who doesn't read Acharya S is lazy « Conspiracy ...26 posts - 4 authors
I'm just going to overlook how absurd it is to consider that Acharya S is "rock .... their projects and come work on the venus project because it's the best ...
conspiracyscience.com › ... › Conspiracies › The Zeitgeist MovementGet more discussion results
The Zeitgeist Movement Exposed!Feb 19, 2011 ... presented by Acharya S and Truth Be Known, online since 1995 ... to the sinister silliness being spread about TZM and the Venus Project. ...
www.freethoughtnation.com/...acharya-s/485-the-zeitgeist-movement- exposed.html - CachedTruth Be Known News | Blog of Acharya SA perfect rebuttal to the sinister silliness being spread about TZM and the Venus Project. Posted by Acharya S at 12:35 PM 0 comments · Links to this post ...
tbknews.blogspot.com/ - Cached - SimilarAcharya S address to debunkers - KunenaAcharya S address to debunkers - Educational Material - Audio/Video - Kunena. ... The founder of the venus Project seems to be a devout Atheist wanting to ...
chapters.thezeitgeistmovement.com/tx/index.php?...7... - CachedThe Venus Project(Zeitgeist) = The LUCIFER Project : News & World ...10 posts - 6 authors - Last post: Oct 25, 2010
bravo good for him to man up..and the venus project imo is exactly what we ... especially when you compare acharya s's work to blavatsky's, ...
www.disclose.tv › ... › News & Media › News & World Events - CachedGet more discussion results
Venus Project | Illuminati Conspiracy Archive BlogNov 1, 2010 ... Venus Project's Jacque Fresco Cavorting with the New World Order Elite ... obviously enamored with 'Acharya S' and her occult Theosophical ...
www.conspiracyarchive.com/Blog/?tag=venus-project - Cached - Similar(unquote)
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