I would like to answer you, but there is something wrong with the coding of this forum, have the time quotes work, and half the time they don't.

If you want information about their financial stuff, you can inquire with the IRS like everyone else.

Answered the issue about people showing the movie on a military base. We have no control over what portions of the film people show. It is extremely unlikely that anyone from what could be construed as the "top" and I stress construed even knew about such a showing.

Its quite interesting to me MR moderator what happens as my mind adjusts.

Its clear to me that as I had in the past tried to communicate with the entire anti tzm/tvp community, that when people get angry and upset they get easily polarized. They fail to understand whats important i think or relevant in an argument. They fail to grasp the importance i think of where strong claims are made they should be rooted in facts and demonstrated with as much back up evidence as possible... and also turned down a notch from being flames back
into being some kind of service to the public; calm; centered, informational.

I have just started a group on FB with the focus of preparing the report which would be suitable to bring here. I want to take the time to actually prepare this report for you and to you in a manner that is respectful to the forum and to you
as somebody whos got to listen and assess and figure out whats real.

As i Put myself in your shoes, I see that this looks pretty complicated. I assure you finding out that it is a cult for yourself is as easy as going and trying to post for a few hundred posts and hang out with them.
They can't help it. The inner workings are tied to control freak trips and pack psychology and blatant hierarchy and no accountability, the pack hierarchy and all of VTVS arguments all hold together with the glue of his veiled ad hominems.


But you know, this increasingly doesn't prove its a cult so much as that vtv personally is addicted to ad homs and spinning; and that he can't actually answer the evidence.

I'm looking at my own personal evidence and I think its quite strong. You have to go ahead and take some time and look quite a bit over and think about why he deleted it and covered his tracks.
But i can appreciate not wanting to form an opinion over one bad interaction; I'm not asking you to. Because of the polarization this gets complicated. Marios making an argument that works to talk with people like mario. Hes making an argument that earns me lots of extra stress to make anything stand up as a whole "movement." But you know? I have sympathy where i can. I tell mario please stop making these adolescent ad hom remarks about vtv. I ask him to clean up his language. and you know ? i think hes hearing me a little. But over all thats how it is. I didn't choose my team mates. But this is the thing. This is not an isolated incident. Thousands of people have had interactions with TZM bad enough to turn them against it. This is not some flash pan trolls having a bad day. These are over all good, sensitive, truthful, honest people, who have seen something wrong with this organization and stood up to it.


WE don't have our case in order. This is true. Painfully so. and so I'm asking you to hold off judgment and give us a month; 30 days; for us to prepare a detailed report tailored to the needs of this forum and critical rational objective criteria and evidenciary process.

I think now that the crowd understands via interacting with you why this is important; rather than me just kind of trying softly to get along with it; you being put in the middle over it shows them; they need to raise the bar of the argument; There are so many of them and there is so much evidence actually that I think I can make a report in 30 days which will be simply absolute, undeniable; and impossible to argue against or apologize for or question.


So. For this reason, and in peace, I'd like to bid you and your forum a temporary leave as i go construct the document to properly and completely answer this question and problem.
Thank you for bringing the anti tzm/tvp group to focus; I always had hopes that somebody would sooner or later somehow drive the point home; what kind of argument needs to be made. until then, just so you understand that I'm actually working the problems, not just here trolling, heres one more place where i have put in a few thousand posts trying to solve the problems and once more a proof of why its their loss they don't have me and why i don't need them but they can't really make it without what i have to give them.

You see I have 3000 posts at RBEF and we have a nice library of evidence there.

[rbefoundation.com]


I would have loved to be TVP/ TVMs ally and am still open to that if they change. I am polarized against them and this is not about me being merely angry over being mistreated. The fact of the matter is that TZM/TVP is a cult. And I understand quite well that is quite a tall order to prove and I am intent now to take the time to collect a large and detailed body of evidence. Until TZM/ TVP changes the core tactics which it employs to attempt to control people and brain wash them and dominate them, and until it gives up on some of these dogmatic ideas; like global world domination and robogods, its got some therapy it needs. It has a lot of good ideas and a lot of creative energy which would be nice to see come to some good ends. This is a log jam.


You know there is a spectrum here. This relates back i suppose to the question of is the libertarian party or democratic party or republican party a cult?

The answer of course is yes, where "Cult" is a range range of objective values each on a bellcurve function and pretty much all human groups behave with cultish mannerisms. The question is more complicated than that.
What is the shape of this groups groupthink? Is that group think dangerous to the public? If so why? And more importantly... i suppose... How could this be redirected? How serious is it?


there is cult like level 1; you know, cult of basketball hero. the harmless cult. Genuine by god cult of personality all the way through but. Harmless. Then theres cult level ten, like say hitler. Big cult, ... Or maybe a 5 for Manson or Jonestown. And so we say some organization is a cult. I think that question is moot. Pretty much any organization is a cult unless they know how to not group think. The question is only where on the scale of cult they are. Its not like cults are in bad company. all sciences have become cults. Mainstream science is group think. The truth is a little more complicated than all that smile and nod politics thats formed. All human paradigms are subject to group think until people learn to stop group thinking. I suppose the first step to that is de-escalation; seeing the opponent as the person you are trying to help and to serve.

I think TZM is definitely level 4 or 5 cult material. Any denial really can only be that the number is lower than that. How low is that number? Lets say I'm off. Lets say i let my own situation blow things out of proportion in my mind.
Why are there thousands of other people who think TZM is s a cult? Why does TZM have almost as many anti members as members?

As I said, I know I'm empty handed just now. Please give me 30 days and excuse the rest, sorry for the intrusion...

Quote
puck
If we shadows have offended,
Think but this, and all is mended,
That you have but slumber'd here
While these visions did appear.
And this weak and idle theme,
No more yielding but a dream,
Gentles, do not reprehend:
if you pardon, we will mend:
And, as I am an honest Puck,
If we have unearned luck
Now to 'scape the serpent's tongue,
We will make amends ere long;
Else the Puck a liar call;
So, good night unto you all.
Give me your hands, if we be friends,
And Robin shall restore amends. (Act v. Scene i.)

Prometheus,

He asked you to prove we are a cult and you repeated several times that your real problem was that we banned you from the forum. You could spend thirty days trying to come up with something, but you are never going to prove that we engage in anything in the three points he suggested. And the reason why is because we don't do any of those things.

I am interested to see what you come up with in a month, but it's a little late in the game. You have already proven what your motive here was by making the statement that unless I and I quote "get on your knees and beg for forgivness" you were going to come here and convince everyone that TZM is a cult.

So now it is evident you are biased. And any such "research" you put together is going to reflect that. You could spend thirty days trying to craft a post like Mr. Kush put together that was inherently deceptive I suppose, but I will still be here to debunk it.

[www.zazzle.ca]

"I have a friend, who is a prime example of the general public. He is refusing to read further into TZM until I can answer the question of punishment and how this is decided upon. You may consider my friend a closed minded, uninterested and undeserving person, but this is the kind of person we need to convinceI'm trying to spread the ideas scattered all over TZM and VP websites, but people are finding holes"".


Pages 22 to 23 questions about punishment in the future society envisioned by Venus Project

--to give a context for the T shirts.

[www.thezeitgeistmovement.com]

--
Re:Questions For Jacque Fresco and Roxanne Meadows and the Answers 7 Months, 3 Weeks ago
omnistpriest wrote:

Who would decide on when to redecorate, clean or repaint objects in the streets?


Architects would build all structures with materials to withstand the elements, so no paint would be used. Of course cleaning would be automated, even the world trade center was cleaned by robotic window washers.

You haven't really read my question as it was deeper one. I'm asking how decisions would be made on situations that don't lend them selves to computer stimuli. The world trade centers were cleaned either regularly or when someone in management decided it was time.


If an individual were to commit a heinous act... such as rape or murder, how would this be dealt with?


The Venus Project paradigm is prevention, being proactive. Once a crime is committed, there is little to be gained from punishment, the only subsequent actions would be to counsel the victim or the victim's family, and to determine what can be learned from the person who committed the crime.

If the person is unstable of course therapy is needed, if the person cannot be rehabilitated, they would have to be kept isolated from the rest of the population in the most humane way possible.
I understand the idea of the Venus project and don't get me wrong, I am all for it. But I do have a few questions that people have put to me... So, how does a peaceful society humanely isolate an indvidual from the rest of the population? And who decides this humane punishment. And let's not sugar coat this. Removing an individual from society is punishment.

**And then there is the aforementioned therapy. If no crime of rape has been committed in 15 years, who is skilled in the correct kind of therapy for the victim?
C

The crisis is a crisis in consciousness. Level 1 Poster Posts: 110


There's a moment when you say: This is enough! But be careful: from then on, you're alone. You are alone. And you'll have to put up with it, and that's the disposition of a philosopher. But it's very difficult, because from then on, you don't belong to the herd anymore


and page 23

Re:Questions For Jacque Fresco and Roxanne Meadows and the Answers 7 Months, 3 Weeks ago
CaptainRaj wrote:

You haven't really read my question as it was deeper one. I'm asking how decisions would be made on situations that don't lend them selves to computer stimuli.

...

I understand the idea of the Venus project and don't get me wrong, I am all for it. But I do have a few questions that people have put to me... So, how does a peaceful society humanely isolate an indvidual from the rest of the population? And who decides this humane punishment. And let's not sugar coat this. Removing an individual from society is punishment.

And then there is the aforementioned therapy. If no crime of rape has been committed in 15 years, who is skilled in the correct kind of therapy for the victim?

You are absolutely asking some of the deeper questions here!

While the vast majority of today's problems will be handled quite eloquently simply by our evolving to a global resource-based economy, there are going to be certain aspects that will still require further research and development. Simply put, we do not yet have the knowledge &/or technology available yet to answer these kinds of questions. Handling difficult situations "as humanely as possible" is still a highly subjective concept and one that will surely improve over time. I could toss this at my own imagination and project to you that we need to study the human brain specifically to localize the areas that lend themselves to grossly aberrant behaviors before we'll have a better idea of what to do about them (therapy consists of 'what'?). But I'll digress from trying to expand upon that notion and simply say "We don't know yet", but I'm confident that we will quickly develop methods that do no harm to the public at large, the afflicted person or the people who are working to help them.

Remember, a global RBE is not a utopia and it never will be. Everything remains emergent and is subject to improvement. But removing the vast majority of current problems in today's world will very much allow society to focus much, much more of its attention on any issues that are not naturally solved by the replacement of the monetary system, social stratification, etc..
Gman

Linguistic Team Caretaker Moderator Posts: 2354


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If you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anythingThe administrator has disabled public write access.
#274368
Re:Questions For Jacque Fresco and Roxanne Meadows and the Answers 7 Months, 3 Weeks ago
Okay, I can't tell if the first comment is employing the use of sarcasm, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume it's geniune.

The reason I'm sticking with these two questions (who makes decisions that a computer can't and how do we deal with extreme individuals and situations which haven't been encountered for a long time) is because those that would like to see the Zeitgeist Movement diminish into an historical and burnt out ideology need answering. The longer they can "inform" the general public with false statements with regard to TZM, the more a consipiracy theory and eutopia it becomes.

I have a friend, who is a prime example of the general public. He is refusing to read further into TZM until I can answer the question of punishment and how this is decided upon. You may consider my friend a closed minded, uninterested and undeserving person, but this is the kind of person we need to convince.

I'm trying to spread the ideas scattered all over TZM and VP websites, but people are finding holes. One could assume these awkward people would prefer the rest of the world solve the issues and they get to slip comfortably into the "new world". That's a battle we'll all have to fight sooner or later. I'm fighting it now and I'm struggling.
CaptainRaj

The crisis is a crisis in consciousness. Level 1 Poster Posts: 110


There's a moment when you say: This is enough! But be careful: from then on, you're alone. You are alone. And you'll have to put up with it, and that's the disposition of a philosopher. But it's very difficult, because from then on, you don't belong to the herd anymoreThe administrator has disabled public write access.
#274384
Re:Questions For Jacque Fresco and Roxanne Meadows and the Answers 7 Months, 3 Weeks ago
I assure you that no sarcasm was meant or even considered in that opening sentence. It was simply my agreement with your own statement in the previous post.

The approach you're being hit with here are questions to which we don't yet have all of the answers. I tell people who ask such things to put their own thinking caps on and help us come up with possible solutions to them instead of complaining that we haven't quite thought of everything yet. This worldwide RBE concept is meant for everyone's input and guidance, not just some 'select few' that they may be envisioning.

And if your friend is not interested in learning more until YOU (or me) can come up with the answers for every possible scenario they can possibly come up with, they will never be convinced by what you (or I) can say to try and answer their objections. Instead, they are much more likely to 'come around' once they see more & more of those around them demanding this direction.

This RBE direction is all about human interaction, both with each other and the rest of the universe, known & unknown. Machines, computers, etc. are nothing but tools to help us pick up the pace towards the betterment of life for all living things (and the planet itself and beyond) and the answers to these types of questions will be arrived at using the best logic available to us at any given time, not dictated by any one person or committee of opinions. It's painfully obvious that what we've been doing in these situations is not what works best. A RBE will provide us (humans, not some movement, or sub-group of people) the opportunity to try much more humane approaches than what has been tried in the past and 'best approaches' will reveal themselves in time. Of course, they can only reveal themselves if we're actively looking for them, which very few are doing now.


Regardless of what we (humans, not movements) do, technology will continue to advance exponentially. If we don't choose to use it collaboratively and humanely for the good of the world and all life upon it (and beyond), it will end up used by those with the most power and influence to keep things as they are (only it will continue to degrade the quality of life for those who cannot afford or control it). Those who currently control things are blazing through the planet's resources like they will never run out and working overtime to keep people convinced that they must continually purchase the junk they make from it. That's insane and will relatively soon lead to our extinction if it is not turned around.

Try getting your friend to watch some of this info. It's not coming from the movement, but from the cutting edge of science. Maybe it will help them focus a bit more on the big picture.

www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/juan_enriquez...ing_new_science.html
www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/ray_kurzweil_...ll_transform_us.html
www.ted.com/talks/ken_robinson_says_scho...kill_creativity.html
Gman

Linguistic Team Caretaker Moderator Posts: 2354


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#274668
Re:Questions For Jacque Fresco and Roxanne Meadows and the Answers 7 Months, 3 Weeks ago
Gman, thanks for the links. They're incredibly insightful and interesting presentations, especially Juan Enriquez'. I've forwarded them onto a few friends. Hopefully they'll realise our current level of technology is much higher than what is perceived or presented in the bias media! I'm not sure if it will convince people to get on board but it'll open their eyes at least. I still think that a vast majority of people will remain negative and unsure until something tangible is produced. But if that's the case, then so be it. A negative and closed minded attitude is best left alone.

I think I'll give up trying (for the time being, at least) to convice those that would prefer to contribute nothing and reap everything.
CaptainRaj

The crisis is a crisis in consciousness. Level 1 Poster Posts: 110


There's a moment when you say: This is enough! But be careful: from then on, you're alone. You are alone. And you'll have to put up with it, and that's the disposition of a philosopher. But it's very difficult, because from then on, you don't belong to the herd anymoreThe administrator has disabled public write access.
#276435

Odgovor:Questions For Jacque Fresco and Roxanne Meadows and the Answers 7 Months, 2 Weeks ago
hi everyone!

here is an email that i sent to Roxanne on june 14, 2010, just a few days after their lecture in ljubljana, slovenia, where we met Roxanne and Jacque and talked to them, but i have never received any response, so i don't know has she even received it...

as i don't know what is the official position of TVP on this, i would like to see here some comments from the experienced Project members. what TVP has to say about this very special kind of people?

thanks in advance!


"Hi Roxanne,

Your lecture was awesome, we are happy that we were there. However, there is one thing that we would like to warn you about. You should keep an open mind on the next information, because we studied it in detail.

...(some personal info)...

Yesterday we tried to speak with Mr. Fresco about it, but we found out that he has some misconceptions about one particular disorder, which is the GREATEST threat to humanity from the down of the existence. The thing is, we are going to engage in The Zeitgeist Movement as much as our obligations allow us, and there is nothing that we are finding unsatisfying in it, so this information is only our suggestion about one thing you should UPDATE.

You can't deny that same people are born with physical handicaps. Some people are born without fingers or without legs, some are humpbacked, others are hairless, etc. Likewise, some people are born mentally retarded with an extremelly low IQ, others are born with Down's syndrome, etc. In other words, many individual's problems are not due to Social and Cultural Environment. They might be genetically caused or they might be caused by poisons or radiation from the Environment, but the fact is, probably all of them were among us from the earliest history, and it is pretty sure that there is nothing we can do to prevent and eradicate them, except if we diagnose them as early as in the womb, and start ending a pregnancies by abortion.

The greatest Enemies of humanity are PSYCHOPATHS! Not the serial killers, not the rapists, not the convicted criminals, but the "ordinary" people from the next door who abuse us on a daily basis, and those most dangerous of all - POLITICIANS, PRESIDENTS, MONARCHS, DICTATORS, "SPIRITUAL" LEADERS, BANKERS, etc. Psychopaths are NOT Environmentaly generated! THEY are born that way! Thair brain functions differently than Ours from the very birth. In fact, it is different than Ours! "The amygdala is involved in aversive conditioning and instrumental learning (LeDoux, 1998). It is also involved in the response to fearful and sad facial expressions (Blair et al, 1999). The amygdala is thus involved in all the processes that, when impaired, give rise to the functional impairments shown by individuals with psychopathy. It is therefore suggested that amygdala dysfunction is one of the core neural systems implicated in the pathology of psychopathy (Patrick, 1994; Blair et al, 1999). Interestingly, two recent neuroimaging studies have confirmed that amygdala dysfunction is associated with psychopathy (Tiihonen et al, 2000; Kiehl et al, 2001). Thus, Tiihonen et al (2000) used volumetric magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) to explore the relationship between amygdaloid volume and degree of psychopathy in violent offenders as measured by the PCL-R. They found that high levels of psychopathy were associated with reduced amygdaloid volume. Kiehl et al (2001) used functional MRI to examine neural responses in individuals with high (>28/40) and low (<23/40) scores on the PCL-R during an emotional memory task where the participant processed words of neutral and negative valence. Kiehl et al found a reduced amygdala response in the high-scoring group, relative to the low-scoring group, during the processing of words of negative valence."
(bjp.rcpsych.org/cgi/content/full/182/1/5). THEY CAN NOT LOVE, THAY CAN NOT COMMISERATE, THEY CAN NOT FEEL DEEP EMOTIONS. ALL of THEM CAN KILL ANYBODY without feeling ANY GUILT. They are almost the Machines from Your yesterday's lecture in Slovenia. And most importantly, THEY are NOT VICTIMS themselves, NEVER - THEY don't have capacity to become one! And, THEY can came out from the very Normative and Loving families, as they usually do. Those people who kill and get involved in various crimes, who are Environmentaly generated, are not to be confused with the Psychopaths! Someone who was abused as a child, and because of that has developed psychopathic characteristics, IS NOT WITHOUT capacity for Deeper Feelings. He is "only" deeply screwed up!

It is obvious that in the world concieved by you guys they could be easily taken care of. But if we don't understand that Psychopaty is the major problem that holds us in this corrupt system of scarcity, that the Psychopaths are the ones who need corrupted legal system to get along, and that they write the policies and the laws for us to obey, all our efforts are doomed to fail. We have to learn about THEM, because THEY are the only REAL Enemy. They know us, they pray upon us, they play with us because we are blind and ignorant. Be sure about one thing, when Our Zeitgeist Movement becomes a serius threat for them, they will start War against it (and us), and unless we are ready, they will destroy us. Fear, War, Killing, Misery, Manipulation are the few things they are best at, and they will defend this sick system with everything they have... And, right now, they have a lot - they have Our Unawareness of Them!

Please, read Political Ponerology written by Andrew M. Lobaczewski. Here is the link for the ebook (www.mediafire.com/?mui1ytudmnd). As I recall, he stated that after his death the book can be distributed around for free, because he wanted to educate people about their findings as wide as possible.

Please, watch this video and see for yourself how differently psychopaths brain works:



It is True Science - it is Technology!

peace,
s&d"



p.s.
where is the best place to write about psychology and psychopathy on this forum?
snjezana

Level 1 Poster Posts: 54


i truly believe that individuals can make a difference in society. since periods of change such as the present one come so rarely in human history, it is up to each of us to make the best use of our time to help create a happier world. dalai lamaThe administrator has disabled public write access.
#280042
Re:Questions For Jacque Fresco and Roxanne Meadows and the Answers 7 Months ago
My question .
What is the venus project point of view
concerning the many discussions about voting and possible new insights that may have been presented in such.

Do the current views of the venus project acknowledge that even though prefering the scientific method
there may arise a situation where it may actually be logical to have a vote?
be it just a preference scan a value of influence on a analysis of a given problem
or things dealing just with esthetics etc.
or is the goal to completely eliminate it for ever with everything also for minor decisions that have no risk of a really bad choice?
How to deal with a situation that has not enough data on human preference where it may be required?
Since there are no laws, Whats is to stop a couple of friends voting about something?
Either way how far will the scientific method go?

Some people are concerned that the human factor may get suppressed a bit too much.
Perhaps unnecessary worries .
Please shed some more light on this.

greetings.
polymathic

New Poster Posts: 10


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#300350
Re:Questions For Jacque Fresco and Roxanne Meadows and the Answers 3 Months, 3 Weeks ago
First of all I want to say how I admire Jacque Fresco. I have same unusual question for him and I think it could be interesting.

1. So OK, we are living in Venus project with all those people going study what ever they want. Who is going to decide who is going to play Stradivari violins?
2. If there is no law how you gonna prevent same specified people from take in prstaci from the sea? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithophaga_lithophaga This is the most delicious shell what I know. It grow inside the rocks and people need to hit with hammer sea rock with destroying sea environment to get this shell.
3. On what kind of way you are planing to build all this golf terrains on every city cause I know that many countries consider building golf in wild area as ecocide.
4. What about smoking? Is it going to be allow to smoke in the pubs? What about this car exchange, if same smoker smoke in the car, than same other non-smoker get this car in order.

Thanks!
tylerdurden

Level 1 Poster Posts: 54


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#315664
Re:Questions For Jacque Fresco and Roxanne Meadows and the Answers 1 Month ago
hello

ONE question
How much of the Venus Project was inspired by Plato's description of Atlantis?

And then a statement that lets you know where I am headed with this ONE question.
I am curious and I have my reasons for asking that question.
And many are in fact great reasons, maybe we should ask Carl Jung, Joseph Campbell, Richard Dawkins, Susan Blackmore and Dan Dennet about them.

How do ARCHetypes, ARKetypes, genetics and memetics conspire to get the information or data from command central, the galactic center, out to us, on the outer arm of the Milky Way spiral galaxy?

And what do genes and memes have to do with this ARCHETYPAL info/data that is being passed on?
How does it connect to photon emission and absorption and electrons/positrons moving up and down energy levels?

How do the genes and memes conspire to form the 3rd level replicators into the temes?
Why does temes 'sound like' TEAMS?

'SOUNDS like'?
Who wants to play a game?
What does the Higgs Boson 'sound like'?

images of atlantis:
www.google.ca/images?um=1&hl=en&...tion%20of%20atlantis

images of the Atlantis Cross:
www.google.ca/images?um=1&hl=en&...=g1&aql=&oq=

namaste

rafe
XX
Raphael37

New Poster Posts: 3


Last Edit: 2011/01/31 11:15 By Raphael37.
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Pages 22 to 23 of thread

[www.thezeitgeistmovement.com]

Respectfully corboy, what is it your trying to get at there? I didn't see anything in all of that stuff that has anything to do with T-Shirts.

I would also point out that people make mistakes on huge internet forums all the time.

[muertos.blog.com]

“They apparently miss the obvious fact that the world is rapidly heading towards disaster, (as if a billion people going hungry every day and the extinction rate of the ecology is not a disaster in itself) so their whole silly bias is clearly the result of incredible ignorance.”

Reply

"This is a typical maneuver by Zeitgeisters: if you criticize the Zeitgeist Movement ideology even slightly, in any way, in their eyes you are asserting that everything in the world is peachy keen and that there is no room whatsoever for any improvement in human affairs. Naturally this binary argument is as absurd as it is insulting. I never once in my blog suggested that world hunger or ecological disaster is not happening; neither was the point of the blog. So right off the bat Roan is trying to box me into a corner and paint me as a defender of “the system.” Nice try, but this isn’t going to work.

"

So, by admitting that my first two points are true, and by illustrating that he actually agrees with my third point, Roan places Zeitgeist ideology precisely in the same category as the “high modernist” ideology that concerns Professor Scott. “Why not try it?” Well, read Seeing Like a State for the answer to that question: trying it will very likely involve the deaths of millions of people.

My fourth point, in demonstrating how Zeitgeist ideology is exactly what Scott is talking about with “high modernism,” was this:

Finally, their visions—lavishly illustrated in artist’s depictions of circular cities and YouTube videos—unabashedly wallow in technological and aesthetic fetishism. Any one of their designs could have been torn from a sketchbook from the 1930s film Things To Come, depicting a utopian future world where denizens of an automated city are pampered by ubiquitous machinery.


and

My words:] I’ve blogged several times before about the Zeitgeist Movement. This bizarre organization, based almost exclusively on the Internet and spawned from the Zeitgeist series of Internet films, is primarily aimed at spreading conspiracy theories…

“Gee, can this blog be any more ignorant? Conspiracy theory was in the Zeitgeist Movie, but that was a concept video by Peter before the Zeitgeist Movement ever existed, and the conspiracy sections, about religion and 9-11, are not part of the Zeitgeist Movement’s concepts. They are irrelevant, period. The Zeitgeist Movement may have started from that movie, but those sections are not part of the Zeitgeist Movement’s basic concerns.”

This is the age-old favorite chant of the Zeitgeister, “The movies aren’t the movement!” Number one, in fact, on the Zeitgeisters’ Greatest Hits, which I have already debunked here (http://conspiracyscience.com/blog/2010/06/19/zeitgeisters-greatest-hits-confronting-canned-responses-to-criticisms-of-the-zeitgeist-movement/).

…in this blog I intend to explain why the Zeitgeist Movement/Venus Project’s utopian vision for the future of humanity is, at best, doomed never to get off the ground, and at worst is a recipe for a catastrophe that could potentially claim millions of lives.

[muertos.blog.com]

Peter Josephs response to Natalie Goldbergs article

[www.blogtalkradio.com]

"oreolvrs says: in comments section for this article

[www.tabletmag.com]
Feb 6, 2011 at 9:33 AM
Listen ZMF was nothing more than propaganda the entire thing was a rehash of everything weve seen and heard before.Everything that can be said has been said if want to introdice someone to TZM show one of the countless videos on youtube that say everything.Most critics have Zeitgeist fatigue like how maistream society has green fatigue.If want to be taken seriously raise money I have said this countless times if each member raised $500 you have $250million:go build these geothermal plants,these hydroponic skycrapes and fund the development of automative live up to the mantra of “being the change you want see in the world”(Im actually trying to help you guys..this is why mainstream media ignores you because to be honest yes an RBE is a good idea its just that your getting swept up in the passion of saving the world without doing your homework).If want to reruit those who you perceive as ignorant than actually do something other than sitting on your ass all day talking about the future and calling people who see the flaws present as ignorant or as supporters of the status quo.There are flaws in TZM/TVP and if your unwilling to address them then I dont see how you expect to be taken seriously at all.Now Jacques ideas and consept of transition along with the design are outdated its time to update them
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1. A charismatic leader, who increasingly becomes an object of worship as the general principles that may have originally sustained the group lose power.

Jacque Fresco's birthday has been made into the zeitgeist holiday called ZDAY. This is fact. VTV, your answer to this allegation was that you were never made aware. That doesn't change the fact. In fact, members know very well what Zday centers upon. "And here's our greatest opportunity: Z-Day 2011. The annual Zeitgeist Day, celebrated on and around Jacque Fresco's birthday, March 13th." [blog.thezeitgeistmovement.in] Pleading ignorance is not a affirmative defense.

In regards to the idols, you say that it is a artists project but on that link I provided the article is described as "merchandise" and the poster declares "I did it out of respect and admiration and also as a way to possibly help them get some more income if they wished to add it to their merchandise." According to the creator of the bust: "I did it out of respect and I felt that maybe other supporters of the project would enjoy having it as a reminder of the brilliant man that even at 94 is still trying to change the world."

Thought Terminating Cliche
VTV says: "So let me get this straight, he calls out someone from the media who was pretty obviously using the word "cult" to sell their article with the "Oooh ahhh" factor of the word and this is some sort of coercive thought reform? Give me a break. "

The point of that statement from Peter Joseph was not that he was calling out the person who made the accusation, the point is, he created a "thought terminating cliche" he dubbed "the circus" designed to get members to ignore all information presented by individuals using words like:
"cult"
"conspiracy theorist"
"communist"
"new world order"
"Marxist"
"satanist"
"theosophist"
"anti-freedom"
"anti-semetic"
"racist"
and other blanket distinctions which are both ambiguous and culturally objectionable on average.-Peter Joseph

He says those terms are "Tell-tale signs of The Circus". So basically, what he is doing is brain-locking followers to ignore and laugh off any and all the criticism that includes those words. Your response really has nothing to do with 'thought conforming cliches" or the use of such a cliche in the phrase "the circus". In fact, the use of the "circus" is not limited to one article, Peter Joseph has a lecture series on it:
[www.youtube.com]
[www.thezeitgeistmovement.com]
Interesting use of "the circus" here:
[www.thezeitgeistmovement.com]

This is thought control. Zeitgeist teaches people how to block criticism "rather than be surprised by "The Circus" when it comes to town, please expect it/understand it and look at it as a form of entertainment."-Peter Joseph.

In regards to my second example of "thought conforming clichés” "The movies are not the movement". Interestingly, you gave the same exact spill as a response:

[i"]The reason the "movies are not the movement" is because the first movie has nothing to do with what we are doing now. And in the movies Peter puts some material in the movie that members of the movement do not always agree with. But again, that's not "coercive thought re-form". -VTV[/i]

Yes it is because Zeitgeist teaches people right on its "knowledge database" (link provided), that the movies are not related to the movement, and then he goes on to say: "There is often some confusion in this regard and in the most extreme cases some people have the knee-jerk reaction that TZM support's forbidden "Conspiracy Theories" or is "Anti-Religious" or the like. This type or rhetoric tends to be of a pejorative/insulting nature, used in the context of dismissal of The Movement by an erroneous and "taboo" external association. The fact is, there is no association whatsoever." Peter Joseph [www.thezeitgeistmovement.com]

Zeitgeist is training people to ignore the criticism of the first film and to label those who criticize it as having a "knee jerk reaction" amongst other things. In fact, the "movement" was created during the ending segment of the "zeitgeist movie" sequel.

The first link on the "zeitgeistmovement" forum is directly associated with the first film:
[www.thezeitgeistmovement.com]

Clearly, the founder is providing expanded material for "zeitgeist movement" to use, directly related to the first film! He says:
"So, if you happen to come across people who have absorbed the biased disposition that The Zeitgeist Movement 'must' be discredited because I, Peter Joseph, made a "debunked" film - please show them the above PDF. I can assure you it will keep them busy for a while... It's going to take a great effort to distort this one."- Peter Joseph [www.thezeitgeistmovement.com]

See, at this point, we have to stop and see why does this group try so hard to shake the first film! It is because it is a piece in the mind control/cult puzzle that damages their credibility.

How is "coercive persuasion" really different from normal persuasion?
VTV says: "So Peter was trying to make people "unreasonably afraid" when he slammed on the media doing what it always does and trying to find something negative to report on to get ratings? Or by suggesting that his films have views not necessarily shared by the rest of the movement? "

No, my point of "coercive persuasion" is the use of fear tactics. According to culteducation.com: "These are fears often not based upon objective reality, such as bizarre conspiracy theories, baseless projections of an impending catastrophe, crisis and/or physical danger." So Zeitgeist movement uses bizarre conspiracy theories, they use baseless projections for impending catastrophe, and yes, they even warn their followers to "mentally prepare for violence".

VTV: "There is nothing baseless about the idea that we cannot continue to pollute the earth and not expect it to become uninhabitable. Please provide me logic on why either of the above points are "baseless" or "unreasonable"."

The zeitgeist movies baseless projections are based on conspiracy. Do not twist zeitgeist to something it is not. Tell me now how the conspiracy notions presented by zeitgeist are not "baseless projections for impending catastrophe! In fact, that is the whole basis of Zeitgeist.

In regards to the doomsday notions, you respond:

VTV: "There are several organizations that fear an economic collapse."

VTV, please keep in mind, not any one criteria here makes me believe Zeitgeist is a cult, rather, when you take all the evidence collectively, a clearer picture emerges.

Ironically, the video you posted of Jacque fresco goes on to say that we "will all kill each other in our current system", more fear mongering. [www.youtube.com]

The only reason I posted the McCain link: [theothermccain.com] was because it showed the films segments and clearly outlines the conspiracy used in this film. You are bringing up the loughner mass murder, not me.

How can cults control information?
VTV, in regards to banning and blocking on zeitgeist forums: "We have already debunked this nonsense. The forum is only used by a small amount of the organization. Zeitgeist members are not monitored for all of their communication in the way a cult would do this. You are stretching WAY far here." -VTV

Yes because you ban/block does not make you a cult, but it does show how you control information, which is something cults do. Censoring posts, removing radio programs from your channel, block dissenters, all those things demonstrate "information control". My main point was to underline information control, as I said before, the primary use of information control by the Zeitgeist is not the banning/blocking, but rather the "cliches" that prevent members from thinking openly and critically about the group.

Destructive Cult Recruitment
VTV: "We don't hide anything from anyone. But the reason that information is not handed out to people is because it is not what the movement is about."

So you dont hide anything from anybody, yet you hide information that is predominate in your group because "it is not what your movement is about? Then explain this:

Jacque is clearly delivering a message to coordinators on how to infiltrate religion!
[www.youtube.com]

Zeitgeist Movement hates Christians:
[zeitgeistmovements.wordpress.com]

Yes the movies is what the movement is about, here are members promoting zeitgeist and carrying around "zeitgeistmovie" banners:
[www.youtube.com]

Here members are handing out cards that say "Zeitgeistmovie" right on them:
[www.youtube.com]

Here are members handing out DVDs, [www.youtube.com] notice the guy speaks about the "monetary system" and "solutions", clearly, the zeitgeist movement is playing the "dummy card" thinking that people will not go back and see the first film, when the are handed part two, at which point, they will be hit with Peter Josephs esoteric/theosophical take on Christianity, 9/11 conspiracy, and "international bankers" and "chip implants". In fact, addendum includes a huge portion of pure conspiracy by a man named "john perkins" who has been declared a fraud and conspiracy theorists by the US government and reputable news outlets.

So clearly, we see Zeitgeist in a religious battle and is involved in conspiracy and yet when recruiting they leave those elements out, amongst other things.

I like your commentary on the discussion:
VTV: 1. Solid repetition of a given piece of information being used as misleading propaganda is very common in actual "thought reform" and an attempt to look like there is "plenty" of information to support one's claim when in reality they are just repeating the same thing they said earlier. ("We don't want the smoking gun to be a mushroom cloud...")

2. You will notice he is not providing any context for either of the quotes he is attempting to spin here. As he is quote mining.

Lets stick to the subject and let the evidence speak for itself, shall we?

The Demand for Purity
1) douglas mallette is a lead technician for the zeitgeist movement. and YOU agreed with him that people needed to be "annihilated". You are the venus project official spokesperson, you said, "absolutely". The point is your group views yourself as seeking purity (organization seeking to feed children", and aggressors as "evil" and bad" that "deserve to die because they are worthless skin". This fits the demand for purity: "In the thought reform milieu, as in all situations of ideological totalism, the experiential world is sharply divided into the pure and the impure, into the absolutely good and the absolutely evil."

2) you are the official spokesman and you removed the whole murder dialog. more information control

3) VTV says "Your information about the UN is inaccurate" the issue at hand has nothing to do with the UN. It has to do with the "demand for purity". "The individual thus comes to apply the same totalist polarization of good and evil to his judgments of his own character: he tends to imbue certain aspects of himself with excessive virtue, and condemn even more excessively other personal qualities - all according to their ideological standing. He must also look upon his impurities as originating from outside influences - that is, from the ever-threatening world beyond the closed, totalist ken. Therefore, one of his best way to relieve himself of some of his burden of guilt is to denounce, continuously and hostilely, these same outside influences." I really dont care about the UN. Thats not why I posted that, it has to do with the violent nature of Venus Project "lead technician" member douglas mallette demonstrating how "EVIL" and "BAD" people who attack buildings need to die.

4) VTV says "Douglass has since apologized for his wording" Yeah, "wording", not beliefs. In his "apology" he takes the time to plug "attack preparation": [www.youtube.com] (More fear tactics)

VTV: I will let Doug speak for himself in that video that your attempting to spin. But Doug was very clear. We recognize that people may try to be violent even towards a peaceful group of people trying to implement this system, particularly if it was done during an economic/ecological collapse. You framed this as if Doug was trying to be a drill sergeant preparing people for war. Again extremely deceptive tactics. I notice you didn't post the entire video of Doug addressing that issue.

Yeah he was very clear. "Mentally prepare yourself for attacks". Anyways....

Understand it is this Good Vs Evil that I am talking about:
The Zeitgeist movement believes that everything in the world today is destructive, including families, laws, governments, currency, nations, cultures, states, languages, religions, god, the list goes on and on. Everything is destructive except for The Venus Project which is "perfection" and "heaven on earth". So they strive to painfully for the non existent "perfect" venus project and "heaven on earth" by spreading the name "zeitgeist" and the movies made by Peter Joseph to everybody they know (this is called "awareness").

VTV: Ok, now we are getting into the realm of outright lying. In the Zeitgeist Orientation guide it actually talks about the benefits to families living in a Resource Based Economy and how much stronger the bonds will be when parents can actually spend a lot more time with their children in the economic model we suggest.

AM I LYING? Really?? Whats this then?? [www.youtube.com] @about 1:25.

And after 4 minutes here he says there will be no families in Jacques future:
[www.youtube.com]

So clearly, you are trying to discredit me by saying im lying, instead just ask me for proof, which I can provide.

Demand For Purity
Yes this a blend of perfection and sacred science, or what Peter calls "functional spirituality". [www.youtube.com]

VTV: And in the video he says "It's not perfect at all" and uses the word "hopefully". Are you just hoping people are not going to actually watch the video? He says it's the best science can offer us through using the scientific method. This is further proof of deceptive debate on your part.

Yeah he says a variance of perfection. Its in the video, check it out.

VTV, I really dont care if “trolls” made this video where Frescos says he wants to create "heaven on earth". If somebody wants to hear the whole interview they can ask me for a link in PM for the whole context. youtube=http://www.youtube.com/user/anon11allofus#p/u/6/2m3fP3hNt2o
It it further evidence of the seeking of "purity". "Thought reform bears witness to its more malignant consequences: for by defining and manipulating the criteria of purity, and then by conducting an all-out war upon impurity, the ideological totalists create a narrow world of guilt and shame. This is perpetuated by an ethos of continuous reform, a demand that one strive permanently and painfully for something which not only does not exist but is in fact alien to the human condition."-culteducation.com

Sacred Science
Peter Joseph says "science and technology is divinity in action" youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MRtX7rYh5ag

"Yet so strong a hold can the sacred science achieve over his mental processes that if one begins to feel himself attracted to ideas which either contradict or ignore it, he may become guilty and afraid. His quest for knowledge is consequently hampered, since in the name of science he is prevented from engaging in the receptive search for truth which characterizes the genuinely scientific approach. And his position is made more difficult by the absence, in a totalist environment, of any distinction between the sacred and the profane: there is no thought or action which cannot be related to the sacred science. To be sure, one can usually find areas of experience outside its immediate authority; but during periods of maximum totalist activity (like thought reform) any such areas are cut off, and there is virtually no escape from the milieu's ever-pressing edicts and demands. Whatever combination of continued adherence, inner resistance, or compromise co-existence the individual person adopts toward this blend of counterfeit science and back-door religion, it represents another continuous pressure toward personal closure, toward avoiding, rather than grappling with, the kinds of knowledge and experience necessary for genuine self-expression and for creative development" rick ross.com

VTVs reponse: "The video speaks for itself. Your again really trying to stretch" Yeah it does speak for itself, it says god is fake, jesus is fake, men are gods, and “science and technology is divinity in action”, “science is the tool for functional spirituality”. This is the core definition of sacred science. It is a element of cult criteria.

Peter Joseph says Christianity is a man made fraud and man is really god. "Mans creative ability is true divinity". youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYc7ZkloPIE&NR=1 For within the framework of the sacred science, and sweeping, non-rational "insights." Since the distinction between the logical and the mystical is, to begin with, artificial and man-made, an opportunity for transcending it can create an extremely intense feeling of truth. But the posture of unquestioning faith - both rationally and non-rationally derived - is not easy to sustain, especially if one discovers that the world of experience is not nearly as absolute as the sacred science claims it to be. culteducation.com

VTV response: "because he is an atheist" So what if he is a atheist? He is planting the seeds for his “sacred science”.

3. Economic, sexual, and other exploitation of group members by the leader and the ruling coterie.

Zeitgeist is seeking economic gain. I have already provided evidence of this. I realize alot of places sell things and it doesnt make them a cult. But when you combine the sales with the leader "worship" and the various examples of though control being used, well then the picture of a "cult" emerges.

IN CONCLUSION:
VTV: "I have exposed several deceptive tactics used in this report. Repetition, spin, quote mining, taking things out of context, etc. The poster has a history of engaging in just that quite a bit. As you can see from the various exposures here he has a tendency to provide links for comments taken out of context, and will slip some outright falsehoods next to misquotes to try and lend credibility to his argument. This is not meant as a personal attack but to make the readers aware that this sort of thing is very common for him. It would be hard for someone who had not dealt with this from him to get the context of it and he is banking on that.

We are again dealing with a personality who has a personal grudge against the Zeitgeist Movement. And is hoping that you will label us a cult."

I have no personal grudge. I don’t need Rick Ross to label you a cult. In fact, based on the constant videos of your members, it is your movement who is in need of somebody to clear the cult tag. Here is a cache of audio/video demonstrating zeitgeist are trying to convince people they are not a cult: [zeitgeistmovements.wordpress.com]

The need for my repetition (if any) is because many of the criteria of cults intertwine. For example, the "demand for purity" includes elements of "thought control cliches" and "fear tactics". So naturally, I would need to repeat some things. If I was "spinning" data, i would not provide the links. If I provide the complete convos. it would be hard to identify where my examples take place so I include condensed versions. However, people can see if Im "spinning" when they go research the items in their full context, if they need I will supply via PM.

You are also going out of your way to discredit me. You say i have a track record of these discussions but in fact my evidence is valid and I can prove it. The last time we had a discussion, I exposed the motto for ZDAY (fresco's bday) as coming from a lucifer worshiping mason. Within minutes it was removed from the official website and we have not discussed since. Clearly, if i am bring invalid points, you would not have deleted the Zeitgeist Slogan from the page! [zeitgeistmovements.wordpress.com]
I am not trying to discredit you VTV, I am only demonstrating using direct statements and evidence from your group that shows much of the criteria of cults and mind control are reflective in your movement. Lets keep things civil and discuss the points, but please read why I am using this information. It is because the information fits within the context of:
#1 leadership
#2 control (thought termination clichés/coercive persuasion using fear tactics, fear tactics, information control/demand for purity/sacred science/ deceptive recruitment)
#3 gain