Re: Guru Swami G
Posted by:
Icarus
()
Date: June 30, 2013 11:30PM
Dear moderator,
Thanks for your message. I agree with the spirit of your message but I certainly don't think I've engaged in "victim bashing" and apologize profusely if that's what anyone perceives. What I intended was the exact opposite. Do you have me confused with someone else? To the contrary, I think and have said repeatedly that what Holly has done is courageous and good and has helped me and, I believe, others. I have praised Holly repeatedly, and have acknowledged learning a lot from her posts. So, I'm a bit confused by your message.
My comment about whether I think, as an outsider, that Swami G runs a "cult" went, I thought, to the heart of this thread. But I will be the first to say that as an outsider who's just watched her videos for years and has never met Swami G in person nor participated in any of her satsangs or groups in person (or via the online ashram), my basis to opine is very, very limited. Clearly, others think differently and believe that she does, indeed, run a cult. In addition, perhaps the term "cult" is a contested one and you and I have different definitions.
Are you objecting to my reference to how we are all flawed and that there is no perfect teacher and no perfect student? Or how I acknowledged that Holly herself has acknowledged some responsibility? A somewhat balanced perspective -- equanimity -- is not bashing, is it?
In any event, thanks again. Peace and best wishes to everyone on this thread.
Thanks for your message. I agree with the spirit of your message but I certainly don't think I've engaged in "victim bashing" and apologize profusely if that's what anyone perceives. What I intended was the exact opposite. Do you have me confused with someone else? To the contrary, I think and have said repeatedly that what Holly has done is courageous and good and has helped me and, I believe, others. I have praised Holly repeatedly, and have acknowledged learning a lot from her posts. So, I'm a bit confused by your message.
My comment about whether I think, as an outsider, that Swami G runs a "cult" went, I thought, to the heart of this thread. But I will be the first to say that as an outsider who's just watched her videos for years and has never met Swami G in person nor participated in any of her satsangs or groups in person (or via the online ashram), my basis to opine is very, very limited. Clearly, others think differently and believe that she does, indeed, run a cult. In addition, perhaps the term "cult" is a contested one and you and I have different definitions.
Are you objecting to my reference to how we are all flawed and that there is no perfect teacher and no perfect student? Or how I acknowledged that Holly herself has acknowledged some responsibility? A somewhat balanced perspective -- equanimity -- is not bashing, is it?
In any event, thanks again. Peace and best wishes to everyone on this thread.
Re: Guru Swami G
Posted by:
psyborgue
()
Date: June 30, 2013 11:43PM
Diddly,
The group I was in did many similar things to what you're experiencing. After leaving the group and speaking out against it, I was labeled a sort of heretic, and things were said behind my back, and even in public, to make me look bad (some were true, some were not). I was also told that I would fail without the group and would never succeed on my own. When this prediction didn't come true, they nevertheless continued to say the things they did, making things up as necessary. I have no doubt that many (if not all) of the members still within the group swallowed those claims without hesitation. It's just something you have to live with.
When you speak up against a cult or a cult-like group, they almost always react like this. They have to portray you as somehow "broken" because the system/guru/whatever is supposed to be perfect. If it didn't work for you, and you did all you could to try and make it work, then it would imply some fault with the system. Therefore according to the cult logic, the problem *has* to be you. And if you succeed without the system, it implies the system is not the one, true path to salvation. Therefore by cult logic, you must be screwed up as the guru predicted, and you're just hiding it really well. They can't dangerous contradictions and doubt flying around the heads of the faithful.
Please understand, though, that there is nothing actually wrong with you, and you're not going to fail as the guru predicted. She has to say these things about you to her faithful to keep her flock dependent. It's a bunch of bullshit just like the rest of it. It's a shame that she's taken to publishing things about you publicly, but you might take some consolation in the fact that the more she does these sorts of things, the crazier she looks to the ordinary Joe. Who wants to follow a Guru who doesn't keep confidence and doesn't tolerate dissent?
The group I was in did many similar things to what you're experiencing. After leaving the group and speaking out against it, I was labeled a sort of heretic, and things were said behind my back, and even in public, to make me look bad (some were true, some were not). I was also told that I would fail without the group and would never succeed on my own. When this prediction didn't come true, they nevertheless continued to say the things they did, making things up as necessary. I have no doubt that many (if not all) of the members still within the group swallowed those claims without hesitation. It's just something you have to live with.
When you speak up against a cult or a cult-like group, they almost always react like this. They have to portray you as somehow "broken" because the system/guru/whatever is supposed to be perfect. If it didn't work for you, and you did all you could to try and make it work, then it would imply some fault with the system. Therefore according to the cult logic, the problem *has* to be you. And if you succeed without the system, it implies the system is not the one, true path to salvation. Therefore by cult logic, you must be screwed up as the guru predicted, and you're just hiding it really well. They can't dangerous contradictions and doubt flying around the heads of the faithful.
Please understand, though, that there is nothing actually wrong with you, and you're not going to fail as the guru predicted. She has to say these things about you to her faithful to keep her flock dependent. It's a bunch of bullshit just like the rest of it. It's a shame that she's taken to publishing things about you publicly, but you might take some consolation in the fact that the more she does these sorts of things, the crazier she looks to the ordinary Joe. Who wants to follow a Guru who doesn't keep confidence and doesn't tolerate dissent?
Re: Guru Swami G
Posted by:
rrmoderator
()
Date: July 01, 2013 03:04AM
Icarus:
Cult leaders are essentially like a con man running scam. They trick people.
The responsibility regarding wrongdoing should be placed squarely on the shoulders of the perpetrator.
Cult leaders are essentially like a con man running scam. They trick people.
The responsibility regarding wrongdoing should be placed squarely on the shoulders of the perpetrator.
Re: Guru Swami G
Posted by:
diddly
()
Date: July 02, 2013 03:05AM
Dear Psyborgue,
I'm sorry I didn't respond to your note, as I didn't notice this post when I last checked in. Thank you for this. Sadly, all true. Optimistically, all is well. Thank you, again, for offering your insight and view.
Diddly,
The group I was in did many similar things to what you're experiencing. After leaving the group and speaking out against it, I was labeled a sort of heretic, and things were said behind my back, and even in public, to make me look bad (some were true, some were not). I was also told that I would fail without the group and would never succeed on my own. When this prediction didn't come true, they nevertheless continued to say the things they did, making things up as necessary. I have no doubt that many (if not all) of the members still within the group swallowed those claims without hesitation. It's just something you have to live with.
When you speak up against a cult or a cult-like group, they almost always react like this. They have to portray you as somehow "broken" because the system/guru/whatever is supposed to be perfect. If it didn't work for you, and you did all you could to try and make it work, then it would imply some fault with the system. Therefore according to the cult logic, the problem *has* to be you. And if you succeed without the system, it implies the system is not the one, true path to salvation. Therefore by cult logic, you must be screwed up as the guru predicted, and you're just hiding it really well. They can't dangerous contradictions and doubt flying around the heads of the faithful.
Please understand, though, that there is nothing actually wrong with you, and you're not going to fail as the guru predicted. She has to say these things about you to her faithful to keep her flock dependent. It's a bunch of bullshit just like the rest of it. It's a shame that she's taken to publishing things about you publicly, but you might take some consolation in the fact that the more she does these sorts of things, the crazier she looks to the ordinary Joe. Who wants to follow a Guru who doesn't keep confidence and doesn't tolerate dissent?
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/02/2013 03:06AM by diddly.
I'm sorry I didn't respond to your note, as I didn't notice this post when I last checked in. Thank you for this. Sadly, all true. Optimistically, all is well. Thank you, again, for offering your insight and view.
Diddly,
The group I was in did many similar things to what you're experiencing. After leaving the group and speaking out against it, I was labeled a sort of heretic, and things were said behind my back, and even in public, to make me look bad (some were true, some were not). I was also told that I would fail without the group and would never succeed on my own. When this prediction didn't come true, they nevertheless continued to say the things they did, making things up as necessary. I have no doubt that many (if not all) of the members still within the group swallowed those claims without hesitation. It's just something you have to live with.
When you speak up against a cult or a cult-like group, they almost always react like this. They have to portray you as somehow "broken" because the system/guru/whatever is supposed to be perfect. If it didn't work for you, and you did all you could to try and make it work, then it would imply some fault with the system. Therefore according to the cult logic, the problem *has* to be you. And if you succeed without the system, it implies the system is not the one, true path to salvation. Therefore by cult logic, you must be screwed up as the guru predicted, and you're just hiding it really well. They can't dangerous contradictions and doubt flying around the heads of the faithful.
Please understand, though, that there is nothing actually wrong with you, and you're not going to fail as the guru predicted. She has to say these things about you to her faithful to keep her flock dependent. It's a bunch of bullshit just like the rest of it. It's a shame that she's taken to publishing things about you publicly, but you might take some consolation in the fact that the more she does these sorts of things, the crazier she looks to the ordinary Joe. Who wants to follow a Guru who doesn't keep confidence and doesn't tolerate dissent?
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/02/2013 03:06AM by diddly.
Re: Guru Swami G
Posted by:
corboy
()
Date: July 02, 2013 05:58AM
All one has to do is read how diddly was dumped on and shame tripped when she came back out and told what she'd been though in G's group.
That persecution may not be sinister but its cruel.
That persecution may not be sinister but its cruel.
Re: Guru Swami G
Posted by:
Icarus
()
Date: July 02, 2013 12:20PM
Thanks for clarifying, moderator. I understand your point now.
Psyborgue really hit the nail on the head when he told Holly (diddly): "It's a shame that she's taken to publishing things about you publicly, but you might take some consolation in the fact that the more she does these sorts of things, the crazier she looks to the ordinary Joe. Who wants to follow a Guru who doesn't keep confidence and doesn't tolerate dissent?"
I completely agree. It's also worth noting here, perhaps as a vivid illustration of what Psyborgue writes, that over the last few days Swami G had been cross-posting her videos onto her Facebook page accompanied by nasty references to Holly's departure. Under the last video, someone who was identified as a licensed psychologist took her on. He asked Swami G why it was that she couldn't just let Holly leave in peace and simply allow Holly to have her criticisms of Swami G's teachings, approach and ashram. He asked why she (Swami G) was being so dramatic and angry about Holly's departure.
Swami G replied that the psychologist should read Holly's last letter to Swami G, in which -- she explained -- Holly's darkness was exposed. That he would understand the anger then. The psychologist after a while posted again, saying that he read all three letters carefully, and that all three struck him as very "tame." That there didn't seem to him to be anything in what Holly said that struck him as meriting the ferocious response launched by Swami G and her followers. He also asked the followers that remain whether they honestly could say, after reading Holly's letters, that nothing in them was true. Interestingly, Siddhananda replied (in part) that there WAS some truth to what Holly had written. I bet that didn't go over well with the big kahuna.
Turns out, apparently, that this exchange may have been too exposing and shaming to Swami G. The entire thing was taken down by last night. (So, I figured that as a public service I'd recall it from memory here.)
I wonder if Swami G and her crew realize just how miserably their attacks on Holly have backfired. As Psyborgue said, why would anyone in their right mind seek counseling from a guru or other spiritual leader who, after you terminate the counseling relationship, violates all of your confidences and actually publishes private letters you have sent him or her for all to see? Doesn't that behavior -- together with what I perceive as rather extreme egotism of this teacher -- bring into question whether indeed she is a realized/enlightened being that should be acting as a guru and engaging in compensated counseling (to the tune of $400 for 4 sessions)? And if she's not a credible spiritual leader, then shouldn't she pursue a state license to do the mental health counseling she's doing?
Psyborgue really hit the nail on the head when he told Holly (diddly): "It's a shame that she's taken to publishing things about you publicly, but you might take some consolation in the fact that the more she does these sorts of things, the crazier she looks to the ordinary Joe. Who wants to follow a Guru who doesn't keep confidence and doesn't tolerate dissent?"
I completely agree. It's also worth noting here, perhaps as a vivid illustration of what Psyborgue writes, that over the last few days Swami G had been cross-posting her videos onto her Facebook page accompanied by nasty references to Holly's departure. Under the last video, someone who was identified as a licensed psychologist took her on. He asked Swami G why it was that she couldn't just let Holly leave in peace and simply allow Holly to have her criticisms of Swami G's teachings, approach and ashram. He asked why she (Swami G) was being so dramatic and angry about Holly's departure.
Swami G replied that the psychologist should read Holly's last letter to Swami G, in which -- she explained -- Holly's darkness was exposed. That he would understand the anger then. The psychologist after a while posted again, saying that he read all three letters carefully, and that all three struck him as very "tame." That there didn't seem to him to be anything in what Holly said that struck him as meriting the ferocious response launched by Swami G and her followers. He also asked the followers that remain whether they honestly could say, after reading Holly's letters, that nothing in them was true. Interestingly, Siddhananda replied (in part) that there WAS some truth to what Holly had written. I bet that didn't go over well with the big kahuna.
Turns out, apparently, that this exchange may have been too exposing and shaming to Swami G. The entire thing was taken down by last night. (So, I figured that as a public service I'd recall it from memory here.)
I wonder if Swami G and her crew realize just how miserably their attacks on Holly have backfired. As Psyborgue said, why would anyone in their right mind seek counseling from a guru or other spiritual leader who, after you terminate the counseling relationship, violates all of your confidences and actually publishes private letters you have sent him or her for all to see? Doesn't that behavior -- together with what I perceive as rather extreme egotism of this teacher -- bring into question whether indeed she is a realized/enlightened being that should be acting as a guru and engaging in compensated counseling (to the tune of $400 for 4 sessions)? And if she's not a credible spiritual leader, then shouldn't she pursue a state license to do the mental health counseling she's doing?
Re: Guru Swami G
Posted by:
Icarus
()
Date: July 03, 2013 01:53AM
The thread on SwamiG's public Facebook page is back up! Perhaps they didn't like being called out on the takedown a couple of nights ago. They may also may have made it public again only to add Siddhananda's clarification. For full transparency, I am copying the thread in here. Peter L. Sutphen is the psychologist. Bonus points for him for weighing in in this way, as an apparently objective, reasonable and expert voice. Important to note too that Facebook account holders can selectively delete comments, so who knows if something has been deleted and what it was.
-----------
(On Swami G's Facebook page, as of 1:40 pm Tuesday 7/2)
Peter L. Sutphen I just read her letters. They don't sound "sick" at all. For whatever reasons she decided to leave you as a teacher. Why all the reaction from your side? She's not defaming you. She experienced you in a certain way that she could not ultimately adequately cope with so she left. Why is that such a problem? Why does her leaving have to be some "dark mind spinning out of control"? Honestly, I'm not looking for a fight or to get beat up by you, but you seem to be the one with the problem with here leaving. Why can't she leave? She joined out of her freewill and she left out of her freewill.
Sunday at 11:41am · Like · 1
Guru Swami G You haven't read all of the things she is posting all over the net. Really if you had a client that was saying these things to you am sure you would view it in a different manner.
Sunday at 11:57am · Like · 4
Sachi Ananda Peter - actually Guru SwamiG had no problem with this former student leaving the path when this happened a few months ago. However, it is this former student who will not leave her alone, continuing to harass and defame not only her but also her students. Yes, any of her students can leave as no one is chained to be her student. But it's not okay to spread lies and make threats to her and her students.
Sunday at 12:25pm · Like · 5
Suvrat Ananda Peter, It sounds like you are not up to speed with the all the lies, hatred and venomous defamatory remarks that Holly is currently making.... These letters serve to expose that what Holly is saying all over the net is untrue and a bunch of lies and they do that quite well.
Sunday at 12:40pm · Edited · Like · 3
John Alexander Lobur Peter, the former student is publicly accusing the teacher of running a cult, and accusing her, among many other things, of attempting to separate and isolate students from their families.
Sunday at 12:52pm via mobile · Like · 1
Ron Fried Hello Peter,
As it is already pointed out, anyone can leave this path freely and in fact, if one has that request, it is honored quickly, they are wished well, and their membership is deleted. It is also hoped that they go on with their life and certainly not harass should they want to get in contact for whatever reason.
As I understand you to be a psychologist, I am amazed that you have read the letters and find them to be normal and balanced as it appears to be anything but that to me- she appears to be all over the map.
Also, she has been defaming, harassing, and threatening- That is not what I consider to be leaving.
Sunday at 1:25pm · Like · 1
Peter L. Sutphen Ron, I read the letters posted here, that seem rather tame. She was talking about "cult" dynamics which are present to a greater or lesser degree in any organization. Maybe I missed it, but I'll read the letters again.
Sunday at 1:30pm · Like
Peter L. Sutphen Okay, just read the letters over again and from my perspective they don't seem that bad in sense of being defamatory . She was having a conflict with the teaching style of Guru Swami G. Look, I've been in spiritual groups before and when someone says something "bad" about the guru, people in the group can go a little "nuts." I think it functions defensively to keep them away from their own conflicts they have with the guru. Can any of you involved with Guru Swami G honestly say that you are utterly baffled by Holly's comments and have absolutely no idea what she is talking about?
Sunday at 1:37pm · Like
John Alexander Lobur It's not baffling, Peter, but the "fear" she refers to has more to do with not wanting to deal with a lack of sugar coating than anything else. Abuse and hurt feelings are two different things, and, well, the teachers method (which has been reiterated time and again from the beginning) is that of ego affront, so the potential is always there.
Sunday at 1:57pm via mobile · Like · 1
John Alexander Lobur In my opinion very hurt feelings can create powerful stories to justify them. As for the rest you push through your fear of asking your teacher difficult questions and you get straight answers, ones that come with a lot of detail and patience. The door is always open to leave with blessing and goodwill.
Sunday at 2:01pm via mobile · Like
Siddhananda OO Some of the things Holly says have some basis in truth, but have been twisted into something that has a dark motive in it (this part is completely false).. the information that came to her was innocent, without a motive to hurt or take advantage or anything else within it.. the spin she puts on every piece of it makes what she is saying unrecognizable and Guru into being dark, dishonest and mean spirited in nature. It is this darkness that is being challenged..
Sunday at 2:13pm · Like · 6
John Alexander Lobur The Guru posted this long ago... It's by Chogyam Trugpa and sheds a lot of light on the dynamic of the path.
[www.guruswamig.com]
Sunday at 2:26pm via mobile · Like · 1
Ron Fried Peter-
I don't think any psychologist can read these letters and conclude there is any sort of balanced behavior. It indicates the unstable basis from where her rant and defamatory comments are coming from. I am including the link (below) of the 3 letters that are being talked about. She is making statements such as - I am going to chop you up, she has legions of demons, she loves abusing and being abused etc:
Regarding the defamatory comments, this has nothing to do with dynamics of other paths you have seen- Holly has filled the net with innuendoes and false accusations, stating such things as we asked to leave our families to come to Florida, Guru Swami G had an eating disorder and could't stop eating, Guru Swami G is mocking and condemning people for being on prescription medication, stating non existent happenings as taking place, etc.
[www.facebook.com]
Sunday at 3:11pm · Like · 1
John Alexander Lobur He's read them, Ron. I don't think she made the dreams up or that theyre a sign of psychosis. I've had some very vivid dreams myself.
Sunday at 3:25pm via mobile · Edited · Like
Candi Parshall Peter and anyone else questioning. I literally just left Guru G's path today. There was not fear or craziness. No long insulting letter to Guru G as there has never been anything unreasonable or inappropriate from this Guru and ashram. Reason for leaving is simple, there is a pulling for a break. Hopefully for ego to get trampled somehow outside this path. Guru G has not trampled it and giving this break to see if anything falls. Was wished well and feel that if it is in the future to come back this Guru may allow that as she hasnt closed that door. Benefited greatly from Guru G's path and grateful for all she has given. Ommmmmm, Candi
Sunday at 4:09pm · Like · 5
John Alexander Lobur Namaste Candi... Wishing you the very best!
Sunday at 4:15pm via mobile · Like · 2
Ron Fried The way i viewed it Holly had just left the path in a huge rant, threatening law suits, then sends these letters- letter 3 is an apology and letter of appreciation for what was given. This is not appropriate to be going into dreams of demons, and trying to kill someone, and laughing in that manor. It gives the flavor of one possessed by the devil. Nonetheless, the apology is accepted yet for those familiar with what has taken place a short time afterwards and now shows there is no sincerity in the gratitude or apology.
Sunday at 4:18pm · Like · 2
Ron Fried One would have to be informed of what has taken place and currently happening in order to appreciate the situation fully. Candi, may you find what you seek and may that be worthwhile, appreciated your posts. Ron Fried
Sunday at 4:18pm · Like · 4
Amber Tellez Namast~ It’s not only attacks but the extent of the deception and duplicity perpetrated all of those years while on this path that is the thing that is most disturbing to me. I mean, some people make a few nasty remarks when they leave. It’s unpleasan...See More
Sunday at 4:32pm · Like · 4
Amber Tellez Namaste Candi. Sorry to see you go, wishing you all of the best in your journey and hope to see you back!
Sunday at 4:41pm · Like · 3
Vicki Reithel namaste Peter, i for one do not like to see this Path and Guru being used as a target. Such old tired labels thrown about when fear or ignorance are in play. This path is not a skip through the park, and never was it presented that way.... in fact quit...See More
Sunday at 7:09pm · Like · 6
Siddhananda OO to clarify my last comment, what was being said is that some of Holly's statements have some basis in fact such as: yes, Guruji did go to india and that is where she found her Guru, yes i did go to Seattle, yes i am remaining here and do live with Guruji -- there are some factual statements such as these in her writing. The darkness and stories she has spun around these small statements of fact are absolutely false and i am in no way substantiating them not in any shape or form. I want to be very clear about this, that i am not supporting Holly or confirming her dark, twisted stories about Guru and the ashram in the least... so, one can hear this or not, but this is the truth...
4 hours ago
-----------
(On Swami G's Facebook page, as of 1:40 pm Tuesday 7/2)
Peter L. Sutphen I just read her letters. They don't sound "sick" at all. For whatever reasons she decided to leave you as a teacher. Why all the reaction from your side? She's not defaming you. She experienced you in a certain way that she could not ultimately adequately cope with so she left. Why is that such a problem? Why does her leaving have to be some "dark mind spinning out of control"? Honestly, I'm not looking for a fight or to get beat up by you, but you seem to be the one with the problem with here leaving. Why can't she leave? She joined out of her freewill and she left out of her freewill.
Sunday at 11:41am · Like · 1
Guru Swami G You haven't read all of the things she is posting all over the net. Really if you had a client that was saying these things to you am sure you would view it in a different manner.
Sunday at 11:57am · Like · 4
Sachi Ananda Peter - actually Guru SwamiG had no problem with this former student leaving the path when this happened a few months ago. However, it is this former student who will not leave her alone, continuing to harass and defame not only her but also her students. Yes, any of her students can leave as no one is chained to be her student. But it's not okay to spread lies and make threats to her and her students.
Sunday at 12:25pm · Like · 5
Suvrat Ananda Peter, It sounds like you are not up to speed with the all the lies, hatred and venomous defamatory remarks that Holly is currently making.... These letters serve to expose that what Holly is saying all over the net is untrue and a bunch of lies and they do that quite well.
Sunday at 12:40pm · Edited · Like · 3
John Alexander Lobur Peter, the former student is publicly accusing the teacher of running a cult, and accusing her, among many other things, of attempting to separate and isolate students from their families.
Sunday at 12:52pm via mobile · Like · 1
Ron Fried Hello Peter,
As it is already pointed out, anyone can leave this path freely and in fact, if one has that request, it is honored quickly, they are wished well, and their membership is deleted. It is also hoped that they go on with their life and certainly not harass should they want to get in contact for whatever reason.
As I understand you to be a psychologist, I am amazed that you have read the letters and find them to be normal and balanced as it appears to be anything but that to me- she appears to be all over the map.
Also, she has been defaming, harassing, and threatening- That is not what I consider to be leaving.
Sunday at 1:25pm · Like · 1
Peter L. Sutphen Ron, I read the letters posted here, that seem rather tame. She was talking about "cult" dynamics which are present to a greater or lesser degree in any organization. Maybe I missed it, but I'll read the letters again.
Sunday at 1:30pm · Like
Peter L. Sutphen Okay, just read the letters over again and from my perspective they don't seem that bad in sense of being defamatory . She was having a conflict with the teaching style of Guru Swami G. Look, I've been in spiritual groups before and when someone says something "bad" about the guru, people in the group can go a little "nuts." I think it functions defensively to keep them away from their own conflicts they have with the guru. Can any of you involved with Guru Swami G honestly say that you are utterly baffled by Holly's comments and have absolutely no idea what she is talking about?
Sunday at 1:37pm · Like
John Alexander Lobur It's not baffling, Peter, but the "fear" she refers to has more to do with not wanting to deal with a lack of sugar coating than anything else. Abuse and hurt feelings are two different things, and, well, the teachers method (which has been reiterated time and again from the beginning) is that of ego affront, so the potential is always there.
Sunday at 1:57pm via mobile · Like · 1
John Alexander Lobur In my opinion very hurt feelings can create powerful stories to justify them. As for the rest you push through your fear of asking your teacher difficult questions and you get straight answers, ones that come with a lot of detail and patience. The door is always open to leave with blessing and goodwill.
Sunday at 2:01pm via mobile · Like
Siddhananda OO Some of the things Holly says have some basis in truth, but have been twisted into something that has a dark motive in it (this part is completely false).. the information that came to her was innocent, without a motive to hurt or take advantage or anything else within it.. the spin she puts on every piece of it makes what she is saying unrecognizable and Guru into being dark, dishonest and mean spirited in nature. It is this darkness that is being challenged..
Sunday at 2:13pm · Like · 6
John Alexander Lobur The Guru posted this long ago... It's by Chogyam Trugpa and sheds a lot of light on the dynamic of the path.
[www.guruswamig.com]
Sunday at 2:26pm via mobile · Like · 1
Ron Fried Peter-
I don't think any psychologist can read these letters and conclude there is any sort of balanced behavior. It indicates the unstable basis from where her rant and defamatory comments are coming from. I am including the link (below) of the 3 letters that are being talked about. She is making statements such as - I am going to chop you up, she has legions of demons, she loves abusing and being abused etc:
Regarding the defamatory comments, this has nothing to do with dynamics of other paths you have seen- Holly has filled the net with innuendoes and false accusations, stating such things as we asked to leave our families to come to Florida, Guru Swami G had an eating disorder and could't stop eating, Guru Swami G is mocking and condemning people for being on prescription medication, stating non existent happenings as taking place, etc.
[www.facebook.com]
Sunday at 3:11pm · Like · 1
John Alexander Lobur He's read them, Ron. I don't think she made the dreams up or that theyre a sign of psychosis. I've had some very vivid dreams myself.
Sunday at 3:25pm via mobile · Edited · Like
Candi Parshall Peter and anyone else questioning. I literally just left Guru G's path today. There was not fear or craziness. No long insulting letter to Guru G as there has never been anything unreasonable or inappropriate from this Guru and ashram. Reason for leaving is simple, there is a pulling for a break. Hopefully for ego to get trampled somehow outside this path. Guru G has not trampled it and giving this break to see if anything falls. Was wished well and feel that if it is in the future to come back this Guru may allow that as she hasnt closed that door. Benefited greatly from Guru G's path and grateful for all she has given. Ommmmmm, Candi
Sunday at 4:09pm · Like · 5
John Alexander Lobur Namaste Candi... Wishing you the very best!
Sunday at 4:15pm via mobile · Like · 2
Ron Fried The way i viewed it Holly had just left the path in a huge rant, threatening law suits, then sends these letters- letter 3 is an apology and letter of appreciation for what was given. This is not appropriate to be going into dreams of demons, and trying to kill someone, and laughing in that manor. It gives the flavor of one possessed by the devil. Nonetheless, the apology is accepted yet for those familiar with what has taken place a short time afterwards and now shows there is no sincerity in the gratitude or apology.
Sunday at 4:18pm · Like · 2
Ron Fried One would have to be informed of what has taken place and currently happening in order to appreciate the situation fully. Candi, may you find what you seek and may that be worthwhile, appreciated your posts. Ron Fried
Sunday at 4:18pm · Like · 4
Amber Tellez Namast~ It’s not only attacks but the extent of the deception and duplicity perpetrated all of those years while on this path that is the thing that is most disturbing to me. I mean, some people make a few nasty remarks when they leave. It’s unpleasan...See More
Sunday at 4:32pm · Like · 4
Amber Tellez Namaste Candi. Sorry to see you go, wishing you all of the best in your journey and hope to see you back!
Sunday at 4:41pm · Like · 3
Vicki Reithel namaste Peter, i for one do not like to see this Path and Guru being used as a target. Such old tired labels thrown about when fear or ignorance are in play. This path is not a skip through the park, and never was it presented that way.... in fact quit...See More
Sunday at 7:09pm · Like · 6
Siddhananda OO to clarify my last comment, what was being said is that some of Holly's statements have some basis in fact such as: yes, Guruji did go to india and that is where she found her Guru, yes i did go to Seattle, yes i am remaining here and do live with Guruji -- there are some factual statements such as these in her writing. The darkness and stories she has spun around these small statements of fact are absolutely false and i am in no way substantiating them not in any shape or form. I want to be very clear about this, that i am not supporting Holly or confirming her dark, twisted stories about Guru and the ashram in the least... so, one can hear this or not, but this is the truth...
4 hours ago
Re: Guru Swami G
Posted by:
psyborgue
()
Date: July 03, 2013 10:00PM
Well. I would respond that Swami G doesn't have to. All she has to do is to tell her followers that reading these things will make their heads explode and that'll do the trick. Hell. Scientology warned it's members that reading the leaked OTIII documents before they were ready would cause them to literally die. And they listened! In this case, it's sufficient for her to say that it will complicate things and hinder progress (potentially making things more expensive).Quote
Swami G
Do you really think i am in their homes
and privy to what they are reading or not
behind the scenes ?
Cult leaders and those of the like very rarely "order" people to do anything. They merely suggest a course of action, making it sound like the alternative would be unpleasant. The added bonus to this is they can try and throw it back in their followers face if anything goes wrong, as Swami G has done here. It's one thing to say "these are the books I recommend". It's another to say "I recommend you do not read these books as they will harm you physically/spiritually/psychologically/dermatologically".
Quote
dabcult
I CHARGE $200.00 FOR A HYPNOSIS AND REBIRTHING SESSION
NOTHING WRONG THERE .......
I'm sorry, what?!?! What sort of therapist are you, exactly?
I also don't see a problem at all with Diddly focusing on this for as long as she feels necessary. It helped me immensely to figure things out by talking about it and reading all I could about it. I think it helped others figure things out as well. I don't think I would have processed the experience and recovered otherwise. Your suggestion that she "move on" with her life, or that talking about this in public is somehow not "positive" or "constructive" seems a bit offensive, not to mention a tad controlling. Even if she was upset with her former Guru and even if there was some animosity there, I don't see the problem. Are victims not allowed to be upset or angry with their victimizers? It's one thing to be consumed by rage and consumed by revenge, but to deny it entirely is just as unhealthy.
Quote
dabcult
TO WHO YOU AT ONE POINT SAID" YES"
Saying yes to A and getting B instead is not truly consent. Consent must be informed and it is a key element that cults and cult-like groups lack. Nobody "consents" to be brainwashed. The entire process revolves around keeping the subject in the dark about the real agenda. If Diddly was sold a bill of goods, and she was delivered exactly that, and was still unsatisfied, I wouldn't see a problem. That doesn't appear to be what happened here. She was deceived, and no, it is not her fault. Anybody can be sucked into a cult or a cult-like structure.
Re: Guru Swami G
Posted by:
psyborgue
()
Date: July 04, 2013 12:37AM
[Moderator note: Dabcult was subsequently banned from this thread for rule violations and his posts were deleted.]
But a lot of times the information is just not out there (in my case, there wasn't), and when it is, it's often easily dismissed as lies of "dissatisfied customers" as you put it. Charismatic cult leaders are often very, very, good at trying to spin things and unless you know exactly what to look for, you're going to be fooled. I "voluntarily" entered the cult-like group I was in (might even go so far as to call it a cult). I even talked to other members before "joining". They said it was fantastic. That's because they were hand-picked and had been there for a while. Later on, I was testifying of the merits of the group on my own.
I had no idea the sorts of questions I would have to ask. I had no concept whatsoever of how thought reform worked or even what a cult was. I couldn't be expected to know that. Nobody should be expected. I would love it if the whole world read "Cults in our Midst" and understood it, but that's sadly just not the case. I don't feel guilty or responsible in the least bit for being fooled, and neither should Diddly. You're holding people to an unreasonable standard.
But I do agree with you that most people don't get sucked into cults twice (at least not after understanding how they work). That's because after going through something like that and figuring it out, you recognize the patterns. Again. Somebody who has never been through that should not be expected to.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/05/2013 08:24PM by rrmoderator.
Quote
dabcult
And my main point is that lots of people get suck in into a cult because they
do not think ...rethink ...analise ...make deep research on what they are going to get involve in .
But research as shown that very rarely will an individual get caught twice in a cult .....and even more rare that they get involve deeply a third time.
But a lot of times the information is just not out there (in my case, there wasn't), and when it is, it's often easily dismissed as lies of "dissatisfied customers" as you put it. Charismatic cult leaders are often very, very, good at trying to spin things and unless you know exactly what to look for, you're going to be fooled. I "voluntarily" entered the cult-like group I was in (might even go so far as to call it a cult). I even talked to other members before "joining". They said it was fantastic. That's because they were hand-picked and had been there for a while. Later on, I was testifying of the merits of the group on my own.
I had no idea the sorts of questions I would have to ask. I had no concept whatsoever of how thought reform worked or even what a cult was. I couldn't be expected to know that. Nobody should be expected. I would love it if the whole world read "Cults in our Midst" and understood it, but that's sadly just not the case. I don't feel guilty or responsible in the least bit for being fooled, and neither should Diddly. You're holding people to an unreasonable standard.
But I do agree with you that most people don't get sucked into cults twice (at least not after understanding how they work). That's because after going through something like that and figuring it out, you recognize the patterns. Again. Somebody who has never been through that should not be expected to.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/05/2013 08:24PM by rrmoderator.
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