Re: Watzlawick and Erickson
Posted by:
buffman
()
Date: October 27, 2009 11:12AM
Glad to hear you think Erickson was a good guy. Keep up the good work in exposing the crooks. I'm just trying to sort out within myself who's a crook and who's not, I guess.
Re: James Arthur Ray - Christine B. Whelan, missing the point!!
Posted by:
SeekingTruth
()
Date: October 27, 2009 06:53PM
Quote
The Anticult
Its scary, that almost no one in the media has any clue of the actual persuasion and influence techniques being used by these LGAT gurus on the public.
There has to be someone out there, who knows exactly how it all works, and who can speak and write and educate the public.
Maybe now is the time for a group of experts to come forward with a nice text on the persuasion methods, to educate the public?.
See: Dangerous Persuaders a free download:
[www.louisesamways.com.au]
[www.louisesamways.com.au]
Dangerous Persuaders - Penguin 1994
Updated e-book 2007
How do cults gain recruits? Why do so many people seeking personal development find themselves becoming dependant on a powerful organisation? Are there any legal restraints on how groups recruit members? How dangerous are cults and personal development courses?
Louise Samways, a practising psychologist, explains what cults and personal development courses are, how they operate, and the mind-control techniques they use on recruits. She describes how these types of organisations ensure their message is continually reinforced, and how people become unable to question the group's demands or to break away from it.
Louise Samways offers practical help and advice to the victims and their families. She also provides information about organisations that are involved in releasing members from the grip of cults, and that provide support for the families. She alerts readers about how approaches are made, and suggests strategies for avoiding them.
Cult members may be recruiting in your workplace, your social club, your school. This book will help you to recognise and resist their dangerous persuasion.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Many organisations tried to stop Publication of this book. Louise and Penquin fought legal battles and Louise was physically attacked. ( For the full story read the Preface to this online edition)
"An expose of Gurus, Cults and Personal Development Courses and How They Operate". This book had to be reprinted three times in the first ten weeks of its release. Essential reading for anybody contemplating a personal development course, joining a new or evangelical religious movement, or involvement in multilevel marketing and political organisations. Learn to recognise if you are being manipulated and avoid being exploited.
Louise exposes the mind control techniques used widely and insidiously by individuals and groups to manipulate people and community values.
These reviews speak for themselves:
"This is a brave book........." "Dangerous Persuaders is an essential weapon of illumination....." James Murray "The Australian" "Dangerous Persuaders is a vitally important book.." Who Weekly.
Available as free download or read on line. Also in many Australian libraries
[www.louisesamways.com.au]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/27/2009 06:55PM by SeekingTruth.
Re: James Arthur Ray - 2 die at Arizona retreat's sweat lodge
Posted by:
corboy
()
Date: October 27, 2009 10:08PM
Buffman, here is one way to identify hypnotherapists who are likely to be a good bet.
1) Hypnotherapy is not the only they know how to do. The best ones are licensed practitioners of medicine or psychotherapy. THat means they are trained, not only in hypnotherapy, but also on how to assess you and diagnose whether you have a condition for which hypnotherapy is helpful..but also whether you have a condition for which hypnotherapy is counterindicated.
Being licensed is important for purposes of accountablity. A license number does not change and remains stable over the years. This means a practitioner's past performance can be tracked/researched via their state regulatory agency. The persons discussed here on RR.com have rarely accepted the legal and professional accountability of being licensed. Accountability is not for powerholder but for the underlings. This is contrary to the professional model.
By contrast, too many entrepreneurs go through multiple name changes, travel all over the place. Real professionals are stable, with ties to their community. This means you can CONTACT them if you have side effects, or things are not working out. That also means the practitioner learns not only of his or her triumphs but also of his or her fuck ups.
If someone who is licensed screws up, they are accountable to the laws that regulate the practice of their profession. They're not hiding in the shrubbery of 'grey zones' they have accepted the legal role of fiduciary.
Ethical practitioners are required by law to take continuing education courses and either to carry malpractice insurance or work for some agency that carries such insurance--which means admitting the possiblity of making a mistake and needing to give reparations for damages.
2) Hypnotherapists who are ethical never, ever apply it indiscriminately. They assess whether hypno is the treatment of choice for the individual consulting them. They understand that hypnotherapy is just one of a wide range of treatment modalities. They dont apply it in the first session but check to see if its indicated for you or not.
3) They virtually never work on an entire roomful of people--its case by case.
4) Ethical practitioners do not require you to sign away your right as a citizen (or resident alien) to sue or mediate for damages in event that you feel you have been harmed.
5) An ethical practitioner seeks to preserve your existing autonomy and whenever possible to increase your sense of agency, so that you become less reliant on the practitioner, rather than increasingly dependent on the practitioner.
In short, an ethical practitioner never seeks to create a cult of personality. He or she also safeguards patient or client confidentiality and keeps records to a standard required by law.
PS If you go to the search function of this message board, type 'nested loops' or 'Ericksonian' or 'handshake induction' or 'yes set' into the search slot and put 'all dates' into the other slot.
See what comes up.
You can also type 'fiduciary' into the search slot, along with 'all dates' and get an educational module on that fine subject as well.
The essence of professionalism is servanthood. THe welfare of the patient or client comes first. The actual power imbalance between practitioner and client is clearly acknowledged, and as powerholder, the onus is placed on the practitioner, not the client, to use power wisely and benevolently and to pay damages if harm if it is established by 2/3 jury vote that harm has been done.
Patient welfare comes first...not the public image or mystique of the practioner.
The mantra of all professional healers, is above all, do no harm--or another way to put it is, whatever problems a person has when consulting you, do your utmost not to add any new problems to the mix.
Ethical professionals dont use spectacular methods of advertising, such as appearing on TV shows.
They are content to get a solid reputation slowly, by word of mouth, demonstrated competance, respect and referral from colleagues.
Horace described this quieter, non narcissistic development of reputation:
'Marcellus' fame, grows like a tree, by unseen stages.'
Ode 12
Edited 7 time(s). Last edit at 10/27/2009 10:29PM by corboy.
1) Hypnotherapy is not the only they know how to do. The best ones are licensed practitioners of medicine or psychotherapy. THat means they are trained, not only in hypnotherapy, but also on how to assess you and diagnose whether you have a condition for which hypnotherapy is helpful..but also whether you have a condition for which hypnotherapy is counterindicated.
Being licensed is important for purposes of accountablity. A license number does not change and remains stable over the years. This means a practitioner's past performance can be tracked/researched via their state regulatory agency. The persons discussed here on RR.com have rarely accepted the legal and professional accountability of being licensed. Accountability is not for powerholder but for the underlings. This is contrary to the professional model.
By contrast, too many entrepreneurs go through multiple name changes, travel all over the place. Real professionals are stable, with ties to their community. This means you can CONTACT them if you have side effects, or things are not working out. That also means the practitioner learns not only of his or her triumphs but also of his or her fuck ups.
If someone who is licensed screws up, they are accountable to the laws that regulate the practice of their profession. They're not hiding in the shrubbery of 'grey zones' they have accepted the legal role of fiduciary.
Ethical practitioners are required by law to take continuing education courses and either to carry malpractice insurance or work for some agency that carries such insurance--which means admitting the possiblity of making a mistake and needing to give reparations for damages.
2) Hypnotherapists who are ethical never, ever apply it indiscriminately. They assess whether hypno is the treatment of choice for the individual consulting them. They understand that hypnotherapy is just one of a wide range of treatment modalities. They dont apply it in the first session but check to see if its indicated for you or not.
3) They virtually never work on an entire roomful of people--its case by case.
4) Ethical practitioners do not require you to sign away your right as a citizen (or resident alien) to sue or mediate for damages in event that you feel you have been harmed.
5) An ethical practitioner seeks to preserve your existing autonomy and whenever possible to increase your sense of agency, so that you become less reliant on the practitioner, rather than increasingly dependent on the practitioner.
In short, an ethical practitioner never seeks to create a cult of personality. He or she also safeguards patient or client confidentiality and keeps records to a standard required by law.
PS If you go to the search function of this message board, type 'nested loops' or 'Ericksonian' or 'handshake induction' or 'yes set' into the search slot and put 'all dates' into the other slot.
See what comes up.
You can also type 'fiduciary' into the search slot, along with 'all dates' and get an educational module on that fine subject as well.
The essence of professionalism is servanthood. THe welfare of the patient or client comes first. The actual power imbalance between practitioner and client is clearly acknowledged, and as powerholder, the onus is placed on the practitioner, not the client, to use power wisely and benevolently and to pay damages if harm if it is established by 2/3 jury vote that harm has been done.
Patient welfare comes first...not the public image or mystique of the practioner.
The mantra of all professional healers, is above all, do no harm--or another way to put it is, whatever problems a person has when consulting you, do your utmost not to add any new problems to the mix.
Ethical professionals dont use spectacular methods of advertising, such as appearing on TV shows.
They are content to get a solid reputation slowly, by word of mouth, demonstrated competance, respect and referral from colleagues.
Horace described this quieter, non narcissistic development of reputation:
'Marcellus' fame, grows like a tree, by unseen stages.'
Ode 12
Edited 7 time(s). Last edit at 10/27/2009 10:29PM by corboy.
James Arthur Ray - conversational hypnosis, invisible influence,
Posted by:
The Anticult
()
Date: October 28, 2009 04:06AM
And of course, the main people who are doing some form of conversational hypnosis storytelling, aren't telling anyone they are doing it.
Of course, if one asks them at a seminar on the mic, or in the media about their methods of group trance induction, hypnosis, and suggestion, they will immediately counteract with a denial.
Like...HYPNOSIS!!! I am de-hypnotizing people from the cultural hypnosis!! (blah blah).
They just turn it around, and keep doing what they are doing.
They deny they are even doing any form of hypnotherapy or group trance work.
They can call group hypnosis and suggestion any word they want, it still is what it is.
They even have group deep breathing, relaxation, visualizing, suggestions, all standard hypnosis.
but of course, hypnotherapy can occur in normal conversation, or in a Peak State, and it all sorts of ways.
The most advanced way being used now, is simple sounding Storytelling in a normal voice. They EMBED metaphors and messages within the text, and the presentation.
Its invisible influence.
That is what Byron Katie does to a quite high degree.
Richard Bandler has a new book called Conversations with Richard Bandler [www.amazon.com] (please do NOT buy it, maybe check it out from the library).
But this is a good example of some more advanced stuff.
Its multilevel communications, which sound like a conversation and story.
So there is "content" and exercises in the book. But that is merely the surface.
Its laced with all sorts of MULTILEVEL communications going on at the same time. The only saving grace of this material, is they do mention aspects of it, and Bandler has taught many of these methods out in the open too, not only embedded in text. The main audience are those familiar with the techniques.
Too bad the text at the front of the book is not online: the WARNING TO READERS, Warning to Ex-Spurts, and Warning to Everyone Else.
Its very instructive.
How much of it actually works is open to debate. But some of it does work, that is for certain.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/28/2009 04:12AM by The Anticult.
Of course, if one asks them at a seminar on the mic, or in the media about their methods of group trance induction, hypnosis, and suggestion, they will immediately counteract with a denial.
Like...HYPNOSIS!!! I am de-hypnotizing people from the cultural hypnosis!! (blah blah).
They just turn it around, and keep doing what they are doing.
They deny they are even doing any form of hypnotherapy or group trance work.
They can call group hypnosis and suggestion any word they want, it still is what it is.
They even have group deep breathing, relaxation, visualizing, suggestions, all standard hypnosis.
but of course, hypnotherapy can occur in normal conversation, or in a Peak State, and it all sorts of ways.
The most advanced way being used now, is simple sounding Storytelling in a normal voice. They EMBED metaphors and messages within the text, and the presentation.
Its invisible influence.
That is what Byron Katie does to a quite high degree.
Richard Bandler has a new book called Conversations with Richard Bandler [www.amazon.com] (please do NOT buy it, maybe check it out from the library).
But this is a good example of some more advanced stuff.
Its multilevel communications, which sound like a conversation and story.
So there is "content" and exercises in the book. But that is merely the surface.
Its laced with all sorts of MULTILEVEL communications going on at the same time. The only saving grace of this material, is they do mention aspects of it, and Bandler has taught many of these methods out in the open too, not only embedded in text. The main audience are those familiar with the techniques.
Too bad the text at the front of the book is not online: the WARNING TO READERS, Warning to Ex-Spurts, and Warning to Everyone Else.
Its very instructive.
How much of it actually works is open to debate. But some of it does work, that is for certain.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/28/2009 04:12AM by The Anticult.
Re: James Arthur Ray, Better Business Bureau complaints for NO REFUNDS
Posted by:
tanyamannes
()
Date: October 28, 2009 05:03AM
Dear Forum Members,
Thank you for your interest in this story. As the reporter assigned to write this article, I spent four days researching the subject of James Arthur Ray and his self-help company. I visited Mr. Ray's Carlsbad office twice, stood in line at two courthouses to get lawsuit records, called about 50 people, ran background checks on Mr. Ray, read news clippings about Mr. Ray, contacted the Better Business Bureau (and the local Chamber of Commerce) to learn about complaints about Mr. Ray, contacted the people who made the complaints, and searched property records to see what Mr. Ray owns. I also checked with the states of Nevada and California to learn about Mr. Ray's businesses, and cross-checked those listings with the property records. I also called supporters of Mr. Ray to express their points of view. I watched "The Secret" to see the parts with Mr. Ray talking. I purchased and skimmed Mr. Ray's book, "Harmonic Wealth."
As you can see, I worked pretty hard to make sure I could present an accurate, balanced report on Mr. Ray.
Since it has been mentioned here, I'd like to let you know that I am aware of the death of Colleen Conaway. In fact, I spoke to her family members and a friend at length while researching this story. Why didn't I include that information in the story? Mainly because I'm very cautious about blaming a person's suicide on another individual. That's a real gray area, and I didn't feel I could adequately get into the complex issues surrounding suicide in the length I was allotted for this story. Further, I didn't have enough facts about Ms. Conaway to really make a judgment myself. There's an argument that could be made to add that information to the story, but my decision was to leave it out. I should also mention that Ms. Conaway's family may blame Mr. Ray for her death, but no family member has not filed any wrongful death lawsuit that I am aware of. If they did, that would be an immediate news story.
By the way, I also called cult expert Steve Hassan in Cambridge, Mass. for comment and his spokeswoman said he is not aware of Mr. Ray's group.
Thanks again for your interest.
Sincerely,
Tanya Mannes, staff writer
The San Diego Union-Tribune
Thank you for your interest in this story. As the reporter assigned to write this article, I spent four days researching the subject of James Arthur Ray and his self-help company. I visited Mr. Ray's Carlsbad office twice, stood in line at two courthouses to get lawsuit records, called about 50 people, ran background checks on Mr. Ray, read news clippings about Mr. Ray, contacted the Better Business Bureau (and the local Chamber of Commerce) to learn about complaints about Mr. Ray, contacted the people who made the complaints, and searched property records to see what Mr. Ray owns. I also checked with the states of Nevada and California to learn about Mr. Ray's businesses, and cross-checked those listings with the property records. I also called supporters of Mr. Ray to express their points of view. I watched "The Secret" to see the parts with Mr. Ray talking. I purchased and skimmed Mr. Ray's book, "Harmonic Wealth."
As you can see, I worked pretty hard to make sure I could present an accurate, balanced report on Mr. Ray.
Since it has been mentioned here, I'd like to let you know that I am aware of the death of Colleen Conaway. In fact, I spoke to her family members and a friend at length while researching this story. Why didn't I include that information in the story? Mainly because I'm very cautious about blaming a person's suicide on another individual. That's a real gray area, and I didn't feel I could adequately get into the complex issues surrounding suicide in the length I was allotted for this story. Further, I didn't have enough facts about Ms. Conaway to really make a judgment myself. There's an argument that could be made to add that information to the story, but my decision was to leave it out. I should also mention that Ms. Conaway's family may blame Mr. Ray for her death, but no family member has not filed any wrongful death lawsuit that I am aware of. If they did, that would be an immediate news story.
By the way, I also called cult expert Steve Hassan in Cambridge, Mass. for comment and his spokeswoman said he is not aware of Mr. Ray's group.
Thanks again for your interest.
Sincerely,
Tanya Mannes, staff writer
The San Diego Union-Tribune
Re: James Arthur Ray, Colleen Conaway, Tanya Mannes
Posted by:
The Anticult
()
Date: October 28, 2009 11:12AM
In response the message above from Tanya Mannes, regarding the article:
From transcendence to terror: Self-help millionaire has loyal flock, some cynics
By Tanya Mannes, Union-Tribune Staff Writer
[www3.signonsandiego.com]
There should be a separate follow-up news article about Colleen Conaway.
Of course any issues of actual "blame" for a death or suicide, are decided by the authorities.
There are no official cause of death yet for the deaths in Sedona, but there are plenty of news articles about it.
But it certainly is newsworthy to simply report the fact, that Colleen Conaway died while attending the James Ray CAW seminar in San Diego on Saturday July 25, 2009.
How about the FACT that another participant in the same James Ray CAW seminar actually says he personally WITNESSED the suicide close-up?
His name is AF Grant and he blogged about it, without mentioning that the suicide he witnessed was a fellow James Ray seminar participant Colleen Conaway. [www.afgrant.com]
[AF Grant comments are below]
As well, its reported so far that Colleen died while doing a "homeless exercise" at the James Ray seminar in San Diego at the Horton Plaza, and that she died without ID on her, as that is part of the seminar.
That would also be newsworthy, as the sweat lodge victims also had no ID on them.
Its a pretty important fact if someone dies at a seminar doing a "homeless exercise" without having ID on them, and that complicates her identification.
Certainly that is worth mentioning, since the fact that she died at the James Ray seminar had not been reported, until the New York Post reported it. [www.nypost.com]
For example, the same newspaper "The San Diego Union-Tribune" reported on the death of Colleen Conaway, and the delay in identification. [www3.signonsandiego.com]
If James Rays followers are allowed to make unproven and unverified testimonials in support of James Ray in the article, certainly the family of Colleen Conaway are entitled to their opinion as well.
There should be another article, from a San Diego newspaper, carefully looking into the facts surrounding the death of Colleen Conaway while attending the James Ray seminar.
And the public police reports should be looked at, as well as interviewing those who witnessed the suicide (AF Grant), as well as the family.
The police could be asked if they are looking at the case again.
Its really hard to comprehend how another death, whatever the "cause" at a James Ray seminar, in San Diego in 2009, is not worth mentioning by a San Diego newspaper?
After all, the deaths at the sweatlodge, there is no "cause of death" yet, and there have been many articles.
Colleen Conaway deserves a separate article exploring the facts and details surrounding her death while attending a James Ray seminar in San Diego on Jul 25, 2009.
______________________________________
A certain "AFGrant" made a twitter the day Colleen Conaway died. (see below)
__________QUOTE______________
AFGrant twitter
[twitter.com]
Today with James Ray: wallets, phone, id taken and we put on old clothes to wander San Diego as homeless. I witnessed a suicide attempt :(
8:22 PM Jul 25th from web
__________QUOTE____________________
___________QUOTE________________
AFGrant Twitter: [twitter.com]
[twitter.com]
Today with James Ray: wallets, phone, id taken and we put on old clothes to wander San Diego as homeless. I witnessed a suicide attempt :(
8:22 PM Jul 25th from web
13-hour-long day one of Creating Absolute Wealth has ended. Now have hours of homework or rather, "growth opportunities" before any sleep.
9:57 PM Jul 24th from web
Fly to San Diego in morning for James Ray's "Creating Absolute Wealth". 3 day event and I have no idea what is going to happen. I love that.
8:28 PM Jul 22nd from web
_________QUOTE________________
Quote:
Below is a quote from someone with a blog called "The World of AF Grant" www.afgrant.com who took the Creating Absolute Wealth with James Ray seminar In San Diego in July 2009.
He goes onto describe a "suicide" he saw at a mall, without naming the mall.
Did he not realize at any point, that was Colleen Conaway, a fellow participant at the James Ray CAW seminar?
It also seems odd how he says,
"I was the only witness who had the vantage point to know it was intentional".
So he was physically very close to her, but did not recognize her from the seminar?
That blog entry was written over a week after the seminar.
Didn't anyone tell him that one of the seminar attendees died, and it was Colleen Conaway, a fellow seminar attendee, the same death he witnessed?
And since the blog was posted, has anyone asked him if he knew it was a fellow seminar attendee? Are there any comments about Colleen Conaway on the blog?
Another strange coincidence mentioned, is how just after the death, he ran into another fellow James Ray CAW seminar attendee named "Lori" in the same mall?
Was going to the Horton Mall part of a group event field trip outing of the James Ray Creating Absolute Wealth seminar?
__________QUOTE____________________
[www.afgrant.com]
Tuesday, August 04, 2009
Creating Absolute Wealth with James Ray
"One detail I can share is something I witnessed which certainly proved to be the lowlight/highlight. I was wandering around San Diego alone, wondering what I was going get from the weekend; what did I need to learn most? I spotted a woman standing outside the railing of a balcony on the third level at a mall. I thought it was some sort of stunt because ComicCon was going on. She jumped. It wasn't a stunt. I was the only witness who had the vantage point to know it was intentional.
I gave statements to the police and mall security. If you know anything about me, you know suicide is about the biggest button I have to push. Later, I found myself standing where she jumped from, it had only been about a half-hour but the blood stained concrete was cleaned up and the t-shirt kiosk the woman landed on was once again selling "I Love San Diego" shirts to tourists. It was so surreal to see how quickly life moves on.
I couldn't understand why she would do it. Why anyone would do. And I cried. Tears of joy - joy for being alive. That was HUGE for me. And while standing there, I noticed Lori walk into the scene below - first time I've seen her all day...."
____________________________
From transcendence to terror: Self-help millionaire has loyal flock, some cynics
By Tanya Mannes, Union-Tribune Staff Writer
[www3.signonsandiego.com]
There should be a separate follow-up news article about Colleen Conaway.
Of course any issues of actual "blame" for a death or suicide, are decided by the authorities.
There are no official cause of death yet for the deaths in Sedona, but there are plenty of news articles about it.
But it certainly is newsworthy to simply report the fact, that Colleen Conaway died while attending the James Ray CAW seminar in San Diego on Saturday July 25, 2009.
How about the FACT that another participant in the same James Ray CAW seminar actually says he personally WITNESSED the suicide close-up?
His name is AF Grant and he blogged about it, without mentioning that the suicide he witnessed was a fellow James Ray seminar participant Colleen Conaway. [www.afgrant.com]
[AF Grant comments are below]
As well, its reported so far that Colleen died while doing a "homeless exercise" at the James Ray seminar in San Diego at the Horton Plaza, and that she died without ID on her, as that is part of the seminar.
That would also be newsworthy, as the sweat lodge victims also had no ID on them.
Its a pretty important fact if someone dies at a seminar doing a "homeless exercise" without having ID on them, and that complicates her identification.
Certainly that is worth mentioning, since the fact that she died at the James Ray seminar had not been reported, until the New York Post reported it. [www.nypost.com]
For example, the same newspaper "The San Diego Union-Tribune" reported on the death of Colleen Conaway, and the delay in identification. [www3.signonsandiego.com]
If James Rays followers are allowed to make unproven and unverified testimonials in support of James Ray in the article, certainly the family of Colleen Conaway are entitled to their opinion as well.
There should be another article, from a San Diego newspaper, carefully looking into the facts surrounding the death of Colleen Conaway while attending the James Ray seminar.
And the public police reports should be looked at, as well as interviewing those who witnessed the suicide (AF Grant), as well as the family.
The police could be asked if they are looking at the case again.
Its really hard to comprehend how another death, whatever the "cause" at a James Ray seminar, in San Diego in 2009, is not worth mentioning by a San Diego newspaper?
After all, the deaths at the sweatlodge, there is no "cause of death" yet, and there have been many articles.
Colleen Conaway deserves a separate article exploring the facts and details surrounding her death while attending a James Ray seminar in San Diego on Jul 25, 2009.
______________________________________
A certain "AFGrant" made a twitter the day Colleen Conaway died. (see below)
__________QUOTE______________
AFGrant twitter
[twitter.com]
Today with James Ray: wallets, phone, id taken and we put on old clothes to wander San Diego as homeless. I witnessed a suicide attempt :(
8:22 PM Jul 25th from web
__________QUOTE____________________
___________QUOTE________________
AFGrant Twitter: [twitter.com]
[twitter.com]
Today with James Ray: wallets, phone, id taken and we put on old clothes to wander San Diego as homeless. I witnessed a suicide attempt :(
8:22 PM Jul 25th from web
13-hour-long day one of Creating Absolute Wealth has ended. Now have hours of homework or rather, "growth opportunities" before any sleep.
9:57 PM Jul 24th from web
Fly to San Diego in morning for James Ray's "Creating Absolute Wealth". 3 day event and I have no idea what is going to happen. I love that.
8:28 PM Jul 22nd from web
_________QUOTE________________
Quote:
Below is a quote from someone with a blog called "The World of AF Grant" www.afgrant.com who took the Creating Absolute Wealth with James Ray seminar In San Diego in July 2009.
He goes onto describe a "suicide" he saw at a mall, without naming the mall.
Did he not realize at any point, that was Colleen Conaway, a fellow participant at the James Ray CAW seminar?
It also seems odd how he says,
"I was the only witness who had the vantage point to know it was intentional".
So he was physically very close to her, but did not recognize her from the seminar?
That blog entry was written over a week after the seminar.
Didn't anyone tell him that one of the seminar attendees died, and it was Colleen Conaway, a fellow seminar attendee, the same death he witnessed?
And since the blog was posted, has anyone asked him if he knew it was a fellow seminar attendee? Are there any comments about Colleen Conaway on the blog?
Another strange coincidence mentioned, is how just after the death, he ran into another fellow James Ray CAW seminar attendee named "Lori" in the same mall?
Was going to the Horton Mall part of a group event field trip outing of the James Ray Creating Absolute Wealth seminar?
__________QUOTE____________________
[www.afgrant.com]
Tuesday, August 04, 2009
Creating Absolute Wealth with James Ray
"One detail I can share is something I witnessed which certainly proved to be the lowlight/highlight. I was wandering around San Diego alone, wondering what I was going get from the weekend; what did I need to learn most? I spotted a woman standing outside the railing of a balcony on the third level at a mall. I thought it was some sort of stunt because ComicCon was going on. She jumped. It wasn't a stunt. I was the only witness who had the vantage point to know it was intentional.
I gave statements to the police and mall security. If you know anything about me, you know suicide is about the biggest button I have to push. Later, I found myself standing where she jumped from, it had only been about a half-hour but the blood stained concrete was cleaned up and the t-shirt kiosk the woman landed on was once again selling "I Love San Diego" shirts to tourists. It was so surreal to see how quickly life moves on.
I couldn't understand why she would do it. Why anyone would do. And I cried. Tears of joy - joy for being alive. That was HUGE for me. And while standing there, I noticed Lori walk into the scene below - first time I've seen her all day...."
____________________________
James Arthur Ray, Colleen Conaway, Senator Amy Klobucher
Posted by:
The Anticult
()
Date: October 28, 2009 12:23PM
Minnesota Senator Amy Klobucher is looking for answers about James Ray.
Colleen Conaway was also from Minnesota.
The family of Colleen could contact the Senator, and ask she look into that as well.
__________________________
[rumorrat.com]
James Ray Sweat Lodge Latest: Senator Calls for Federal Investigation
October 27, 2009
The 120-degree temperatures inside that sweat lodge was nothing compared to heat James Ray could soon feel from federal investigators.
Minnesota Senator Amy Klobucher is asking both the U.S. Department of Justice and the Federal Trade Commission (FTC) to look into what happened at the Spiritual Warrior retreat where three people died.
The dead include one Minnesotan, Lizabeth Neuman of Prior Lake.
Senator Klobuchar serves on both the Senate Judiciary and Commerce committees.
“People came from all parts of the country to attend an event which they believed would enhance their lives,” said Klobuchar. “Instead, three people died, 18 were hospitalized and dozens more were traumatized. Mr. Ray neither enhanced their lives nor protected their safety.”
________________________________
Colleen Conaway was also from Minnesota.
The family of Colleen could contact the Senator, and ask she look into that as well.
__________________________
[rumorrat.com]
James Ray Sweat Lodge Latest: Senator Calls for Federal Investigation
October 27, 2009
The 120-degree temperatures inside that sweat lodge was nothing compared to heat James Ray could soon feel from federal investigators.
Minnesota Senator Amy Klobucher is asking both the U.S. Department of Justice and the Federal Trade Commission (FTC) to look into what happened at the Spiritual Warrior retreat where three people died.
The dead include one Minnesotan, Lizabeth Neuman of Prior Lake.
Senator Klobuchar serves on both the Senate Judiciary and Commerce committees.
“People came from all parts of the country to attend an event which they believed would enhance their lives,” said Klobuchar. “Instead, three people died, 18 were hospitalized and dozens more were traumatized. Mr. Ray neither enhanced their lives nor protected their safety.”
________________________________
Re: James Arthur Ray, Colleen Conaway, Senator Amy Klobucher
Posted by:
The Anticult
()
Date: October 28, 2009 12:33PM
(update about the liability waiver, it really does appear those waivers are useless, and are just used by the LGAT seminar gurus to try to intimidate their customers) [forum.culteducation.com]
Publisher delays books by guru in sweat lodge case
By BOB CHRISTIE (AP)
[www.google.com]
"Schmidt and Diesel both discounted an extensive liability waiver the participants were asked to sign before the retreat began.
"The law hates those agreements and almost always find them not to be enforceable," Schmidt said. "Especially when you're trying to release somebody from your negligence."
Publisher delays books by guru in sweat lodge case
By BOB CHRISTIE (AP)
[www.google.com]
"Schmidt and Diesel both discounted an extensive liability waiver the participants were asked to sign before the retreat began.
"The law hates those agreements and almost always find them not to be enforceable," Schmidt said. "Especially when you're trying to release somebody from your negligence."
Re: James Arthur Ray - 2 die at Arizona retreat's sweat lodge
Posted by:
quackdave
()
Date: October 28, 2009 09:33PM
Quote
Quote from Dangerous Persuaders
This is achieved by using all kinds of cognitive distortions of reality eg all or nothing thinking, over generalising, disqualifying ignoring and discounting contradictory information, emotional reasoning, combined with enough rules and regulations to make ordinary living inevitably plagued by guilt about thoughts as well as actions. Unfortunately this process entrenches and enhances the brain’s tendency to distort reality to confirm existing or preferred beliefs regardless of the evidence or new information. It creates fearful, dependent adults incapable of critically evaluating conflicting information to make good decisions that work in the real world and is the exact opposite of what education is supposed to achieve.
Amazing paragraph! Enhancing the brains ability to distort reality and and ignore contrary evidence? Creating fearful, dependent adults incapable of critical thinking? This is some powerful mind control that's being discussed. The Anticult has been hammering away at this point for pages and pages, across a number of threads, and in my opinion cannot be repeated enough. This is truly dangerous stuff, being used by some very dangerous people who appear to have little or no regard for human life. I would wager that the deaths mentioned in this part of this thread are not even the tip of the iceberg.
One more thing from me: My only addition to the ongoing conversation about ALL of these millionaire hucksters is to admonish people to not ignore the very curious reticence of law enforcement and the governments of a number of countries to bring these phonies to the courts, if only for tax evasion. Just how deep do these roots run?
I highly recommend the free download of Dangerous Persuaders, by the way. There is a wealth of information by this very courageous individual, all taken from first hand accounts.
qd
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/28/2009 09:39PM by quackdave.
Re: James Arthur Ray - 2 die at Arizona retreat's sweat lodge
Posted by:
corboy
()
Date: October 28, 2009 11:23PM
To QD: Hi, homie. You have asked a very good question.
What if these deaths and hospitalizations had happened during a ritual performed by a native american who had no special social connections or financial clout. Would that person have been allowed to leave the state? Eh?
Discussion continues over at the native american site--its now gone from 5 to 6 pages. Make very sure to read page six. The community on that forum has given a bundle of new URLs for ongoing coverage from a very wide variety of sources.
[www.newagefraud.org]
Page 5 of the of the discussion cites a news article from an Arizona paper--which highlights the extent to which there exists a grey zone where ordinary legal and professional safeguards do not apply.
The title of the article is droll. But the topic is dead serious.
A lot of New Age healers claim some sort of wisdom-in-the-desert salvation narrative.
[www.azstarnet.com]
Is there recourse if your healer doesn't balance your chakras?
By Tim Steller
Arizona Daily Star
Tucson, Arizona | Published: 10.24.2009
Comments following this article can be read here:
[regulus2.azstarnet.com]
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/28/2009 11:27PM by corboy.
Quote
My only addition to the ongoing conversation about ALL of these millionaire hucksters is to admonish people to not ignore the very curious reticence of law enforcement and the governments of a number of countries to bring these phonies to the courts, if only for tax evasion. Just how deep do these roots run?
What if these deaths and hospitalizations had happened during a ritual performed by a native american who had no special social connections or financial clout. Would that person have been allowed to leave the state? Eh?
Discussion continues over at the native american site--its now gone from 5 to 6 pages. Make very sure to read page six. The community on that forum has given a bundle of new URLs for ongoing coverage from a very wide variety of sources.
[www.newagefraud.org]
Page 5 of the of the discussion cites a news article from an Arizona paper--which highlights the extent to which there exists a grey zone where ordinary legal and professional safeguards do not apply.
The title of the article is droll. But the topic is dead serious.
A lot of New Age healers claim some sort of wisdom-in-the-desert salvation narrative.
[www.azstarnet.com]
Is there recourse if your healer doesn't balance your chakras?
By Tim Steller
Arizona Daily Star
Tucson, Arizona | Published: 10.24.2009
Quote
Arizona has no shaman licensing board, no reiki review center and no sweat-lodge inspection department[www.newagefraud.org]
That means that in Tucson’s booming alternative-healing sector, the practitioners operate in a largely unregulated environment.
For customers, word of mouth, the Internet and the free market tend to guide their decisions about whom to see for sessions that can cost $100 or more per hour, local practitioners said. If something goes wrong, the practitioner won’t have a license revoked, but customers can take some recourse by voting with their feet, spreading their opinion, complaining to the Better Business Bureau, or in extreme cases, filing a civil lawsuit.
Perhaps the most extreme case of something going wrong happened in a crowded sweat lodge near sedona on Oct. 8, leading to the deaths of three people and the injuries of about 20 others. Sidney Spencer of the Patagonia area was one of the people in the lodge during the multi-day Spiritual Warrior seminar led by James Arthur Ray, said her attorney, Ted Schmidt. She is recovering in Tucson after suffering what appears to be neurological problems in the two-hour sweat lodge session, Schmidt said.
Schmidt could not envision a regulatory structure that would work for the variety of practitioners working today, he said.
“You could single out sweat lodges and say, ‘Let’s establish licensure regulations for running a sweat lodge,’ but there are so many other activities that these shamans and such do, that it’s hard to imagine licensure for all the different activities that they do,” he said.
A few alternative approaches are licensed: acupuncturists, massage therapists, naturopathic physicians, homeopathic physicians and chiropractors all have state boards regulating their practices. But the unregulated alternative healing methods available in Tucson are numerous. There are shamans, energy workers, sound healers, reiki practitioners, life coaches, and medicine men and women, among many others. And healers’ services are available in places ranging from small home offices to large wellness resorts like Miraval Life in Balance.
“Tucson is quite a spiritual mecca,” said Nancy Newton, who opened A Wild Purple Ranch and Retreat on the Northwest Side last year. “When I got to Tucson (in 2001), I knew it was going to be a place for me to become spiritual.”
Some Tucson practitioners bridge the unregulated and regulated worlds: Lynne Namka is a licensed psychologist using mainstream approaches such as cognitive behavioral therapy, but she also maintains a practice as a shaman carrying out “soul extractions” and other alternative activities.
To stay in good standing with the Arizona Board of Psychologist Examiners, Namka keeps the two activities separate, she said. She has one Web site, Tucsonshaman.com, for her alternative practice, and another, Angriesout.com, for her psychological practice. She has separate fee structures for the two activities, and she only files insurance claims for her psychological practice.
In an industry without broadly enforced standards, practitioners work to highlight the validity of their training. Often that comes in the form of abbreviations after their written names that can be hard for the untrained eye to discern.
“CSP,” for example, stands for Certified Shamanic Practitioner. “CHTP” means Certified Healing Touch Practitioner.
“We’re such a degree and certification-based society,” said Tamra RowlandZaher, a certified shamanic practitioner in Tucson, explaining why people use the titles. “You’re talking about an area where people are using their gifts.”
On the Web site of Newton’s ranch, she spells out her qualifications in more direct words: “Nancy Newton is an adopted medicine woman of the Nemenhah Tribe.”
The Nemenhah band, as leader Philip “Cloudpiler” Landis calls it, is not a federally recognized tribe. Rather, Landis said, it is a branch of a Native American church. Using that status, Landis offers “spiritual adoption” in exchange for a donation.
Through this adoption process, he explained, the adoptee can become a medicine man or woman and be protected by the Native American Freedom of Expression and Religion Act, or NAFERA. As part of the adoption, the Nemenhah Web site says, the adoptee takes part in a “Sacred Giveaway” in which they make an “offering” of $250 at the outset, and $100 per year thereafter.
But some question the legitimacy of Landis, the Nemenhah and the titles he bestows, which also include “principal stone carrier.” One critic is Al Carroll, who operates the Web site www.newagefraud.com
Asked whether being a Nemenhah medicine woman would protect a person under the act, Carroll wrote: “No. I doubt any lawyer would argue that either. Legally, Indian is a legal term that only applies to those enrolled in a federally recognized tribe.”
Alternative practitioners say many of their clients come to them through word of mouth, referred by friends who have benefited from seeing the practitioner. RowlandZaher said she only takes new clients by referral these days.
Some clients find practitioners by attending fairs and open houses that happen occasionally and are attended by a variety of practitioners, said Newton. Her ranch and retreat has hosted several such fairs to show people the services the ranch and its main healer, Darrell Hicks, offer.
She and others suggested that potential clients use their intuition — an important power for many alternative healers — in deciding whether to go with a given practitioner. Then afterwards, they can judge whether they got what they wanted.
It may not be easy argue with a practitioner that your chakras weren’t properly balanced, but it is possible to file a complaint if an agreement or contract isn’t followed, said Nick Lafleur, of the Better Business Bureau of Southern Arizona.
“If they came to us with a complaint, we’d contact the business and mediate so that both sides reach some kind of understanding,” Lafleur said.
In the case of a greater problem, such as sexual abuse or fraud, attorney Schmidt said, that’s what county prosecutors and the Arizona Attorney General’s Office are for.
Comments following this article can be read here:
[regulus2.azstarnet.com]
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/28/2009 11:27PM by corboy.
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