Quote
shimon
this is the hard thing for me. i watch a clip like that and james ray doesnt seem so bad and seems to share some good teachings,

There you have it. The fact that James Ray is a slick-willy is what makes him more dangerous.
The most dangerous sociopaths are the slickest, who can even shed a tear if needed, and have nice tans a wide smile and expensive suits.
The "teachings" are simply copied from other sources, like a clone.

For example, for a trained person, they can spot James Ray on Oprah running PATTERNS that are well-known and directly copied from others. So in minutes, you see exactly what James Ray is doing, and that he is extremely bad. [forum.culteducation.com]

As far as Wayne Dyer and Applied kinesiology (AK)
Dyer also knows its biased and bogus and controlled by the guy running it. In a DVD he says he learned AK from his "dentist", and when asked for the name, doesn't answer and looks nervous.
Looked like Wayne Dyer was lying! They should try some AK on Dyer to see if he is lying!

okay, so james ray is free at the moment, waiting for his trial. what is he doing? he is tweeting everyday. i just find it so absurd. he is still trying to influence his few remaining followers with spiritual sounding tweets. it is one of the most absurd things i have ever seen. at this point, while waiting for a possible jail sentence, the man just goes on tweeting obsessively everyday. tweet, tweet, tweet, i am a good guy, i am a teacher, i live these principles.

in the meantime as already has been mentioned, people are out lots of money for seminars they signed up for and have not received any money back or responses. i wonder if anybody sent any money in recently for the seminar about now in california? i wonder if he actually intended to do another seminar if he got enough people.

maybe i am wrong, but if he is going to tweet, shouldnt he tweet alot about how sorry he is about the tragedy in sedona, and how it has changed his life, and he will always have to live with this and he is going to try to make amends the best he can. but no, this guy is literally psychotic and has no conscience and continues a long as if nothing ever happened. this is the worst kind of teacher out there. he will take everything from you and not care, and want more. ruthless i say.

my heart goes out to the families of the victims and i can only imagine how hard it is for them to keep on reading these insulting, arrogant tweets that he continues to pump out.

Thanks for the further clarification, Anticult. I am still trying to sort things out. Sometimes I misspeak (or mis-write, as the case may be). Sometimes I exaggerate things for humorous effect, e.g., "conspiracy" and "diabolical." Or even "taken to task." I'm sorry if I offended you or anyone else here.

In the case of "conspiracy," I was referring to what I see as a tendency here to sometimes go too far in connecting the dots, as it were. It's true that there's a lot of "incestuous" (again, that's an exaggeration -- don't take me literally ;-) -- cross-promotion among the New-Wage gurus. Most of them draw from the same deep well of b.s. in some way. But they're not *all* in cahoots about everything, and sometimes it seems that this is the prevailing p.o.v. on this forum.

On the other hand, I'm just as prone to playing on this theme myself, and I realize this.

In any case I really am trying to get viewpoints from all sides.

I personally haven't bothered to research whether Dave Lakhani is an NLP Master Practitioner or not, only because I automatically screen that stuff out. I'm not saying everyone can and should do that, and I think you perform a valuable service here by discussing the ways in which people can be taken in by NLP, hypnosis, etc. But my default mode is to consider that almost everyone who claims expertise in NLP is full of B.S., though I fully realize this is as unfair as automatically accepting such things as legit. However, I *am* interested in Dave's background growing up in a religious cult. I think he has some valuable insight about that. With him, as with everyone else, I take what I need and leave the rest. And I suppose Dave can answer for himself as to why he lost his cool here, if he wishes to do so.

One thing I think all of us can agree on: This forum is very valuable, and you've done more than your share of homework and research, AC. You need to write a book. Seriously. (And I hope Steve Salerno starts participating again here too.)

Quote
Penelope
James Ray Recommends Hawkins and Demonstrates Applied Kinesiology

James Randi Tests Applied Kinesiology

I posted this here a few days ago, it's a side by side comparison of James Ray and James Randi, both using AK with different results. I'm sure there are many nonverbal cues people can pick up from people like Ray or Dwyer when they perform AK.

I got rid of most of my new age books and DVDs, but I still have that Louise Hay DVD. I will have to check it out again. Gregg Braden is just hilarious, he's one of the reasons I don't believe in any of that shit anymore. Just a few miniutes of hearing him is enough to snap you out of it.

CosmicConnie,

as seen in threads like this, its very challenging to communicate in plain-text, so its very easy to misintrepret things, from all sides of the issue.

Its true at times there is a lot of speculation in a forum like this.
But that is healthy, its people trying to figure complex counterintuitive stuff out, with incomplete information, as so much of it is concealed by the Gurus and there is so much blatant lying by the Gurus.
But I gotta say, I can't think of anywhere where too many dots have been connected? For example, the hard proof James Ray did study NLP in Hawaii just came up recently.
And the hard proof he uses Cialdini's Social Proof just came up.
And literally ALL of James Ray techniques have been copied from others. James Ray has not thought of ANYTHING original, at all. Its all just cloning of others material. Anyone can see the depth of his insight on Twitter, just misquoting crap out of others books.

So people want to try to understand WHY would people stay in a horrible tent of death like that, and go back for more?
This thread starts to explain why, and how guys like James Ray can do it.
Its not magic, its technique, and selection.


So yes there is speculation. But this is not a journalistic article, or strictly a detached Skeptical deconstruction.
But there are also mounds of hard facts, much harder facts that any newspaper these days. Has any newspaper article on James Ray even tried to look into any of the psychological and covert influence processes behind this? Its almost at zero.
So journalism is not going to inform the public of what is really going on.


Dave Lakhani sells this stuff for a living, he makes money doing it, so he is accountable for his public commercial advertising claims.
Dave Lakhani lost his cool in this forum, because he had his propaganda and BS exposed, instead of being the one jerking the chain for once.
Its very important that Dave Lakhani VERIFY specifically WHO and WHEN and WHERE he got certified as an NLP Master Practitioner. That is a specific thing. [www.purenlp.com] www.purenlp.com
Going to one Richard Bandler seminar, and reading a book is not being an NLP Master Practitioner.
Is Dave Lakhani hinting he was certified by Richard Bandler? (notice how vague his claims and excuses are)
If he is not certified, then someone is bullshitting and making false advertising claims. Its pretty important if someone's main advertising pitch is false.
Let see if he has clarified that yet...nope, just same old. [www.speakersite.com]
If Dave Lakhani is falsely claiming to be a certified NLP Master Practitioner, then he is the one who has chosen to discredit himself. He should look in the mirror, instead of making threats against others for asking him to factually PROVE his advertising claims.

Which other of his claims are also not proven, and are false? That certainly ain't the only Tall Tale being told by Dave Lakhani.
Once you get busted lying, then you destroy your own reputation and credibility. Never saw that mentioned in Dave Lakhani's books.

Dave Lakhani teaches in his books to develop/write a "Story" for marketing and propaganda, and then repeat that same story over and over, everywhere. That is what he is doing.
Why doesn't he just admit it?

And those who do choose to go the covert persuasion route like at the Dave Lakhani and Kevin Hogan seminars in Vegas, they really don't care if the seminar Speakers lie their asses off. They don't care, because they know they are lying their asses off to make money, and they are more than happy to do the same thing.

What Dave Lakhani is doing is an object lesson of what goes on in that area, where the persuaders SAY they are teaching persuasion, but in fact most of the real persuasion is concealed, and is being used to upsell you to their seminars, coachings, and inner circle rip-offs where they promise to teach the REAL secrets. They are doing the same thing, in a different package.

Its very clever, to promise to teach covert persuasion, but only teach maybe 20% of the content, while the REAL covert persuasion is not taught, but its being done to the person without their awareness.
Its a good idea to know this, before 50K-100K in alleged advanced covert persuasion training is extracted from the target.
The supreme insight at the end of the LGAT seminar chain that teaches "persuasion", is that you just got scammed over the last 3 years for 100K, and some for 500K if that have it. They then get so pissed off, they want to make their money back, so they go out and do it to others. Its all rather unpleasant, and many people get hurt.
Others might try to set things right again not by scamming others, but by telling it like it is.

Lastly, one of the main techniques to try and disable critical analyses of the covert persuasion being done, is when the persuader says you are being "paranoid" and they are not doing that. They will deliberately use that technique, Byron Katie does that on her website right now, Dave Lakhani tried that too.
How does one overcome that?
Knowledge, training, critical thinking, assertiveness and mental toughness.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 03/21/2010 05:06AM by The Anticult.

Step 1: upsell to a 15K apprentice program. That is not the ending, that is merely Round 1.

(full post in Dave Lakhani thread) [forum.culteducation.com]

________________quote excerpt___________________
[www.scam.com]
Hillary from California
10-25-2009, 06:27 AM

Janine Driver aka Lyin Tamer and Traci Allen

In July of 2009, I was invited to attend a Joel Bauer weekend event in Los Angeles, California. Because of this, I was told that I could go to a private one day event held by, marketing expert, Dave Lakhani.
At this one day "training" event held by Dave Lakhani, I was told that he will bring his close friend up on stage, Janine Driver. Well, Janine went through a great pitch, all about Body Language, and said that we could get her DVDs of her information for a few hundred dollars. She showed videos of her on the Today show and how they endorsed her, as well as the history channel. She also offered a 15k private apprentice program to the audiance as well.
I asked Dave L. about how much he knew Janine and he said he would trust her with his life, and I should buy her products and join her apprentice program. ....

...Well after waiting for the DVD to arrive, they never did so I asked for a refund. All of a sudden, I am getting pretty nasty emails from Traci and Janine, saying they sent the videos and I am trying to scam them. I tried calling Mastercard, and they wouldn't do a refund since its been over 90 days and they merchant account was Dave Lakhani's.
I also found out that someone who signed up at the event for Janine Driver's apprentice program, has not recieved anything from Janine after paying the 15k, and asked for a refund and is getting the run around. I also found out that every single person who signed up and paid for the program, has cancelled and filed a lawsuit to get their money back, after Janine refusing to refund them. They stated Janine had used their money to pay old creditors, which is again the law.
This is my first time writing on this website, and the only reason to do this is to warn other people out there about Janine Driver and Traci Allen. They seem very sweet, but they like to lie and play on people emotions to take their money. They are no better than Madoff or those other Ponzi schemes. I hope Joel Bauer or Dave Lakhani don't have her at other events, since both endorsed her at their events. My husband and I wrote off getting those DVDs or our money back, since it seems like a lost cause.
_______________unquote_____________________________



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/21/2010 05:24AM by The Anticult.

[I don't think this comment got through the first time I tried to send it; if it did, please forgive the redundancy and just publish one copy. :-)]

Good points again, AC, and I hope it didn't seem that I was implying that the issue of whether or not Dave Lakhani is exaggerating his credentials is unimportant. I only meant that from my own perspective, NLP claims are an automatic red flag, so I didn't bother to go down that research path myself regarding Dave's claims. However, you're correct when you say that it's pretty important if someone's main advertising pitch is false. I'm sure Dave will respond here... or not. (Dave? Are out there? Are you in fact an NLP Master Practitioner?)

I also realize that this forum, like any forum, is a platform for discussion and speculation more than hard research or skeptical deconstruction. Some would argue that even some skeptical deconstruction is not necessarily detached. However, your point is well taken.

I agree that virtually every aspect of James Ray's shtick is derivative. And actually I wasn't questioning the intel on his NLP roots, though I didn't make that very clear in my comment. I realize that I should have given at least one specific example of an instance in which, in my opinion, dots were "over-connected." It wasn't the NLP issue at all, actually. There have been several examples here and there over the years, but one example I saw recently on this thread was the momentary speculation about whether or not James Ray might have something going on with Jerry and Esther Hicks and their imaginary buddy, "Abraham." That seemed to be stretching things a bit, IMO. Jerry and Esther have gotten very rich with their big shtick and my guess is that they neither want nor desire to have much to do with JAR.

What's important to me now is that the main topic I am becoming more interested in, i.e., this whole "persuasion" industry, *is* getting some good coverage on this forum. That's one reason I keep coming back here. As you said, AC, "It's very clever, to promise to teach covert persuasion, but only teach maybe 20% of the content, while the REAL covert persuasion is not taught, but it's being done to the person without their awareness. It's a good idea to know this, before 50K-100K in alleged advanced covert persuasion training is extracted from the target."

It sounds as if you have a great deal of insight on this, and that's why I thought you should write a book. I'm not suggesting you get into a counter-shtick where you sell the "secrets" of protection from persuasion tactics for hundreds of thousands of bucks. But maybe you should be making some money with your knowledge. I know I'd buy your book!

I don't know if any of us will ever be able to get to the real truth about these matters. And maybe I'm the only one who does this, but when I get thinking about this stuff too much I start becoming suspicious of *everyone* for having an "agenda." Maybe that's what I meant, more than anything, about the "conspiracy around every corner" remark. Maybe the problem isn't with this forum but just with me, LOL. I'd be willing to entertain that possibility.

However -- even though I strain my brain sometimes and bend over backwards in the service of trying to be "fair" to all sides -- I really think that in the case of the Lords of Persuasion, it's far better to err on the side of suspicion than acceptance. And that's another reason I find this forum valuable.

A deathly silence from Dave, I note after telling this poor customer that he would 'trust Driver with his life'
He wasn't of course trusting anyone with his life, he was casting this customer into the jaws of the shark------and I'm sure he got a big cut of the take, as these guys put a $ price on everything.

The AK had me very interested for a while, these demo's are great crowd pleasers. I was studying anatomy though for another interest at the time and had a particular interest in the very clever ways that muscles work in pairs to accomplish a task. Of course even pairs of muscles do not work in isolation, there is a corresponding movement across the entire back mucle complex and into the leg muscles also. Couple that knowledge with a bit of suggestion and the good old ideomotor response and the gig becomes explicable.
JAR just bought the tricks from someone--had he studied up he would have understood what a delicate and brilliant mechanism he was fiddling with.

The person who very kindly gave me a boot up the backside refused to explain any of this for reasons that I am only beginning to understand, 30 years on.

There was one thing that he did with me, a positioning, which makes a good story.

He would demonstrate and I would copy him. I automatically would position myself side by side to see what he was demonstrating and he would always manouver me into an opposition position.

I got the message and took the opposing position without understanding why. This person was the first I had ever trusted in my entire life, for reasons I still cannot explain. I practised what he taught me, the way he taught it.
He has been dead now for 20 years, he died quite young, but some of the positionings that he insisted on are only now revealing their secrets to me, after I have been faithfully using them all this time.
I'm still basically a side by side sort of person, but there is something magical in being able to do both, and be equally comfortable in both.

Stoic,
according to the report, the money (a few hundred) for the Janine Driver DVD's went into Dave Lakhani's merchant account, as they could not do a chargeback as they delayed that lady for more than 90 days. (a deliberate tactic to stop credit card chargebacks)

So that means Dave Lakhani got all the money? Or did he transfer it to Janine Driver? How? Personal check? Cash? Barter?
Or was the money kept as commission for bringing in people, and referring people to the rip-off 15K apprentice scam?
Why were the DVD transactions going through Dave Lakhani's account? Commission?
Is that why they never got the DVD program? Was there no DVD program at all?

Why is Dave Lakhani taking money for other people's alleged DVD programs, that never get sent out, according to that complaint?

What about the people with the 15K rip-off? Who's merchant account did that 15K go into?
How many people got scammed on that one?

That complaint about Janine Driver and Dave Lakhani was found in literally 10 seconds of looking. There are probably many more complaints out there.
As stated, they will upsell people to 15K coaching, and 50K coachings. And they will use TRICKY CONTRACTS, that allow them to screw you.
Just like James Ray took in possibly hundreds of thousands for seminars, and then never had the seminar, as there are NO REFUNDS NO EXCEPTIONS.

These guys play hardball.
What would have gone down at that Vegas Influence scam-fest with Kevin Hogan and Dave Lakhani, would make ones jaw scrape on the ground.
Some folks posting around here have been at many of those Influence events, and behind the tables at the back of the room, where the real money is made...
...with pen and paper and pressure and tricky CONTRACTS, and lots of loud music to distract their thinking processes. Real swell guys.

Was sent this link where the bogus fake "scientist" Gregg Braden is hooked up with the instant 3 minute magical cancer cures...in China. [www.chicenter.com] Qigong Hospital...95% cure rate! Wow!
China is the new lawless Mexico of miracle cure scams for desperate people.

[www.chicenter.com]

Where's the price for curing cancer in 3 minutes?
One might have to dig around for it, or phone in. They often don't post those prices.
Claiming to cure terminal diseases, seems to usually cost about 50K these days, that's about as much cash as a desperate person can access.

How much dies Gregg Braden get paid for his endorsements?

Why doesn't Gregg Braden make that false medical claim for curing cancer in 3 minutes by hand-waving in the USA, so it could be reported to the authorities? That's illegal, try that in the USA and everyone goes to jail.
But claim it happens in China, and no one in China cares as long as it makes money.

For Gregg Braden to make such a sickening claim, to TARGET people with terminal cancer like that, it does not get any lower.