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Re: James Arthur Ray - Tony Robbins scam
Posted by: Stoic ()
Date: February 23, 2010 08:05AM

'Ah, yes...the old "business model" that helped with the Dot.Bomb crash. I believe it is refered to as "Churn and Burn" (talk up an investment on multiple sites, get excitment going, then sell your entire portfolio and let the suckers get burned)'

That echoes exactly all the other circle-jerk internet marketing scams.

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Re: James Arthur Ray - Tony Robbins scam
Posted by: The Anticult ()
Date: February 23, 2010 10:24AM

There is a lame product pitch by Tony Robbins, which is just his old crap in a new package.
Lots of criticism of the lame sales trick they are trying. Ultimate Edge []

$14.95 (plus S/H)
In reality, its $350+ to listen to extremely powerful upselling to rip-off coaching and LGAT seminars and other products, including them collecting your personal information online.
They like opening with these little lame sales tricks, because if you'll fall for that one, then you the kind of customer they want! Its a type of sucker-test, to Qualify the customer.
If you are offended by these types of sales-tricks, they don't want you as a customer, they target easy targets.

That is FAR less than 1/10th of 1% of what these LGAT gurus do to people. They start the bait & switch right from first contact.
By the time you get upsold into the $10K-50K live seminar package, you don't know what't hit you.
So they troll the internet and infomercials like The Secret looking for easy targets.
These products are like automatic fish hooks on trolling boats in the ocean, just trolling with bait looking for a fish that bites, and then they reel them in, one at a time.

That is what James Ray was doing with his "free" seminars, trolling for people to take a bite, and get caught by the hooks, and then they reeled them in, one by one.
There are so many of these Gurus out there doing this, its almost unbelievable.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/23/2010 10:29AM by The Anticult.

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Re: James Arthur Ray - Tony Robbins scam
Posted by: buffman ()
Date: February 23, 2010 11:45AM

This would be a good time to mention again that James Arthur Ray literally ripped off many of Tony Robbins' techniques as well as exact stories word for word and gesture for gesture, as in this video where Ray tells a story about "Wolfgang Puck's":


Even the pictures of James Ray look like Tony Robbins, as you can see by comparing photos from this blog article by the Salty Droid [] with photos of Tony Robbins on Google images [] .

Both are big, tall guys with capped white teeth, tan (or fake tan), and professional persuaders, i.e. con men.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/23/2010 11:46AM by buffman.

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Re: James Arthur Ray - 2 die at Arizona retreat's sweat lodge
Posted by: Penelope ()
Date: February 23, 2010 01:00PM

Reading the transcripts, these detectives sound like they're not buying into the BS The Fredricksons are spinning. Since it seems Josh and Megan are not being very cooperative with authorities, can their immunity be revoked?

I can imagine the look on the Detective's face when he had to ask this:
Det. Diskin: "What was done after this to prevent this from happening in the future as far as getting an arrow stuck in your eye?”

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/23/2010 01:01PM by Penelope.

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Re: James Arthur Ray - 2 die at Arizona retreat's sweat lodge
Posted by: Yakaru ()
Date: February 23, 2010 05:43PM

Someone will have a better answer than this, Penelope, but this is what I heard from someone who sounded like they knew what they were talking about (!!!).

Their immunity will be revoked if they it is shown in court that they gave false information in the interview. For example, just hypothetically, if Megan Fredrickson denied telling Melinda Martin to destroy files "before the investigators come" (she did), but had been silly enough to leave such instructions on Martin's voice mail (she was), and if Melinda Martin was smart and ethical enough to hand that tape over to the investigators (she was), then Megan F could well find herself charged.

As I understand it, the investigators would only have offered the chance of immunity if they were fairly certain that they had done something from which they could be deemed immune, and that the information they could get from them would make it worthwhile.

They got no information from either of them, and both of them made some highly dubious statements, as well as making it clear they were playing the investigators for fools. I doubt any of that went down particularly well.

I don't know the US legal system at all though.

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Re: James Arthur Ray - 2 die at Arizona retreat's sweat lodge
Posted by: Yakaru ()
Date: February 23, 2010 05:49PM

Add to that, the fact that these "optional extras" were added after M & J's interviews:

from Prescot E-News:

Aggravating Circumstances

Another document filed last week was in regards to the State's Allegation of Aggravating Circumstances. If a defendant is found to be guilty of a crime, then the Prosecutor can ask for consideration of Aggravating Circumstances in the sentencing portion of the trial.

The Aggravating Circumstances cited by the State are:

1. The presence of an accomplice

2. The especially heinous, cruel or depraved manner in which the offense was committed

3. Defendant committed the offense as a consideration for money

4. The victim or the victim's immediate family suffered physical, emotional or financial harm

5. Defendant was in a uniques position of trust with each victim.

These conditions, if proven beyond a reasonable doubt, could add several years onto Ray's jail term if he is convicted.

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Re: James Arthur Ray - 2 die at Arizona retreat's sweat lodge
Posted by: Stoic ()
Date: February 23, 2010 08:29PM

There are a number of extra court documents uploaded today, most dealing with requests for cameras in the court room and JAR response to that, statements from the news agencies wanting to film the proceedings and most noteworthy, a request from the family of victim James Shore to be included in the bailbond hearing, presumably to put their case for the non-reduction of bail.

I doubt that any victim's family are keen to see JAR free on bail to continue his 'spiritual endeavours'.

court docs, bond hearing

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/23/2010 08:30PM by Stoic.

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Re: James Arthur Ray - 2 die at Arizona retreat's sweat lodge
Posted by: Stoic ()
Date: February 23, 2010 08:39PM

Sorry, a bit slow today. The Prescott enews article linked above by Yakaru gives a detailed resume of the latest happenings, I had not read that before I posted.

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Re: James Arthur Ray -
Posted by: The Anticult ()
Date: February 24, 2010 03:37AM

By the way, not ragging on the Droid! []
Just putting forward a contrary analysis, knowing how these LGAT Gurus operate their seminar and business structures.
Some people have taken many of the exact same seminars and trainings that James Ray took in his early years, where they teach people how to run these complex seminar corporations.

The bottom line is that either James Ray was lying and exaggerating for years about how much money he was making for advertising purposes, (he was) or he is lying now about being broke, after having moved his assets out of the system. (he is).
Its not an either or, but both.

Its very simple to hire an expert in that area to set up the financial systems for you, with a single meeting, based on an insider referral from others in the field. James Ray was a close marketing buddy of all the LGAT bigshots until people who died in his seminar hit the MEDIA. (They were still his buddies after Colleen Conaway died, they only dropped him from their referral lists due to the toxic PR, not due to what was done to the victims).
So he could have used the financial experts used by a Jack Canfield or Tony Robbins.

The first lesson of the LGAT seminar Guru is when you get a large payday of 500K+ for one seminar, then you do NOT put that into the company to pay debt and you do NOT put it into a house. You move it out fast.

He may have had assets moved out of the system legally by experts, or improperly by a crony, only the experts in the field can figure that one out with audits. One assumes that is happening and is going to happen, so we'll have to wait and see.
If they reduce his bail, then of course on paper he is broke.
But that doesn't mean the millions sucked in after The Oprah Effect were squandered.
Again, the experts are going to look into it, but the real estate investment company by the brother Jon C Ray looks interesting. []

Its safe to assume that the James Ray companies had loads of debt before The Oprah Effect. But as stated, these guys all keep their companies in the red intentionally, even if they are making profits.
Even the most ridiculous lame low-end idiot LGAT Guru wannabe knows to not keep any real assets in their own name. These maniacs are OBSESSED with that, as they project their own crooked behavior onto the world and thus assume as soon as they get anythng, some "crook" will sue them to steal it from them.

There are countless very low-end wannabe Gurus who register themselves as their own type of "religion" so they can take a "vow of poverty" on their tax forms, and pay ZERO tax. Meanwhile they can drive a nice car, live in a nice home, all paid/leased through a 3rd party system. And those are very low-end folks.

Hate to be psychic, again, but right from the top it was predicted that James Ray would say he has nothing, as that is part of being an LGAT Guru, not keeping any assets in your own name.
From day one, smalltime LGAT gurus are taught to keep themselves insolvent, as that is the best defense against lawsuits, and works great for taxes as well. They are taught to never even own their own home in their name, or cars, or anything.
You never hear about it, as only rarely does it hit the media like this.

But as has been said many times, from DAY ONE of LGAT seminar Guru kindergarten, you are taught to never hold assets. And now they will use the James Ray example as the ultimate teaching story.
But before James Ray, they all have taught that an "accident" can happen at your seminar and some "crooked lawyers" will rob you of everything. LGAT Gurus in the USA are obsessed with that.
And all the major LGAT seminar systems get sued quite frequently, so that is part of the cost of doing business for them.

Anyway, that is how the game works, but it will be up to the authorities and experts to open up the books and find out where the Oprah Effect money went.

Rays own reps said his accounts were drained recently to pay his lawyers and some "creditors". Anyone taking bets those "creditors" were other companies related to James Ray?

Of course, on top of this, James Ray is DELIBERATELY keeping himself in jail by not making bail. Of course he could get his brother, family, followers to put up the 500K, but he doesn't want to. This is obviously being done for strategic purposes, as has been mentioned by others, due to the lawsuits, to try and prove he is broke.
But no question, James Ray has kept himself in jail so far, on purpose and intentionally.

Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 02/24/2010 03:54AM by The Anticult.

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Re: James Arthur Ray -
Posted by: The Anticult ()
Date: February 24, 2010 04:47AM

Another perverse result of this, is that James Ray will easily be able to spin this to make his followers in this area believe he is still a "wealth expert".
Because as stated, the first lesson these guys teach in "wealth" is the alleged ability to 'legally" protect your assets by using various complex financial instruments and asset protection trusts, and who knows what. They upsell those services as well.
The irony is that even if nothing is found, a non-verbal wink from James Ray will lead his followers and others to believe he has stashed the assets beyond the reach of the system.

One would have to consult respected experts in the financial field to find out to what extent a person/company can direct their companies income through various corporations and complex financial instruments and family trusts, to legally shield those assets.
But even low-level amateurs seem to be able to get hundreds of thousands easily offshore.

Some LGAT Gurus like Byron Katie & Friends even kick it Old School, by reportedly putting $10,000 at a time into multiple suitcases of their followers, while in Amsterdam doing the laundry. []

Like the inchworm said to the washing machine about doing the laundry..."Inch by inch it's a cinch; but yard by yard, it's hard!"

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/24/2010 04:56AM by The Anticult.

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