'The concern I have read in the Cryonet regarding the issue of avoiding the appearance of legal fraud and not misleading cryonics prospects with imbalanced information is valid.'

[www.cryonics.uk.com]

Oh, George, if there was no hint of legal fraud it would be unnecessary to worry about the appearance of legal fraud.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/16/2010 05:22PM by Stoic.

From the same link:

'Theraveda "enlightenment" consists not of "salvation" through personal survival, but the realization that the concept of a separate individual self is a psychological illusion (much as there exist optical illusions). Most Mahayana and Vajrayana versions include this view but posit a wider attainment for the individual personality (not individual "self") which is transhuman in nature. Nevertheless this is just one traditional example of a successful religion based upon personal transcendence without any promise of personal survival. Buddhism shows us that personal transcendence can be a successful motivation as well. '

Actually George there is nothing 'transhuman' implied at all, unless you are listening to a manipulator. Read the texts. The emphasis is on the 'sapiens' part of homo sapiens---'thinking man,' that is , becoming a bit-wiser-than-you-were-before-type-man not, becoming an undead-god-type-man.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/16/2010 05:45PM by Stoic.

'There is the attraction of the exotic in the spread of most successful world religions. The popular author, Robert Ringer (Winning Through Intimidation and Looking Out for Number One), referred to this phenomenon as the respect almost always given to "the expert from afar".'

Robert Ringer is a very smart man, a very, very smart salesman who made a fortune by applying his smarts to the business of selling commercial real estate in the boom years.

Religion caters to the emotional needs of those who take it up---I doubt Robert Ringer expects his commercial real estate sales to cater to the religious needs of his propects.

We get the message George, "Winning Through Intimidation" and "Looking Out for Number One" by turning cryonics into a full blown religion, just like $cientology.

Earlier I mentioned Christianity as being perhaps used as an "underpinning" for a religion of Immortalism. By this I mean that Western culture, especially in the United States, tends to accept unthinkingly many of the precepts and mores of general Christianity.

I bet you just leapt on that unthinkingly, George, to avoid the appearance of legal fraud and to therefore win through intimindation and look out Number One (note that I have Capitalised the Undead God on your behalf)

'Today, the situation is quite different. Fewer people go to a church (especially if we include Europe). Secular life is the norm and not the exception, as in earlier generations. To better grasp the difference, I would suggest that the so-called "New Age" movement demonstrates the changes better than most. New Age churches (such as Unity) retain most of the Christian underpinnings, but tend to be more open to lectures, open meetings and study groups, rather than the more traditional Sunday sermons and prayer meetings. '


New Age churches retain most of the Christian underpinnings, but tend to be more open to turning the business of catering to the spiritual needs of the congregation into a bald and cut-throat business of taking the congregation for every cent they have to spare.

George has seen the future of modern religion, in much the same way that someone once saw the future of rock and roll in Bruce Springsteen:

'Along this line a recent phenomenon has sprung up with the "Art Bell Chat Clubs". The New Age radio host personality, Art Bell launched this year a coordinated effort to line up speakers to travel the country (and world) going to locally-based "Chat Clubs" to give talks on everything from the coming destruction from "Y2K" to "The Mars-Egypt Connection" (with UFOs thrown in, of course). I attended recently just such a meeting and saw what I feel to be the future of modern religion. The personal touch of having a local "fellowship" group is balanced with contacts with "experts from afar" (national speakers). The feeling was absolutely religious also in that there was no questioning of facts, but acceptance of dogma (mostly that the earth is about to undergo some enormous apocalyptic crisis killing some/most of the people).'

"no questioning of facts, but acceptance of dogma...... " Ka-ching, can't you just hear that cash register?

'My point is that a religion of Immortalism would be well-served to model this approach. No need to buy or build expensive church buildings. Rent hotel rooms for meetings and form local "chat groups" (the resonance to Internet chat groups is clear here). I would suggest that members of Immortalism could keep their "basic" religious beliefs but add the promise of survival and transcendence. The New Age is thrashing around for something solid to lean on. The New Age movement shares only a few themes, and I find these themes to be shared by Immortalism through cryonics. These themes include reincarnation, guidance from transhuman beings (via channelling and prophesy), coming transformative earth changes, taking personal responsibility as a part of the world community and human transcendence as a spiritual goal.'


And George has just the thing, a big broad shoulder, for a hefty percentage of course, remember that looking out for Number One?

'The issue of the NDE (near death experience) was treated by James Halperin in an evenhanded way in his brilliant novel "The First Immortal". (I kept feeling that he had intended to do something a bit different with the NDE, just as Arthur C. Clarke led us on in his film 2010 to expect something "wonderful" and then only ended up offering mankind more real estate near Jupiter). Yet what I don't see being dealt with in the New Age community is a very simple issue. A five-minute NDE produces profound psychological changes according to some very serious scientific investigations. What would be the changes we would find in someone restored to life after a 25-year NDE? '

Careful, George, you're moving into Spiritual Warrior territory here, Have you met James Arthur Ray? You guys seem to be covering the same territory.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/16/2010 06:15PM by Stoic.

'The dead shall return to earth and, finally, tell us about the beyond. Up until the recent years of the NDE, no one was "supposed" to be able to tell us anything. The dead do not return, we were told for years. Yet with cryonics, they will. What will they tell us? The ten-minute NDE-ers already write volumes on their few minutes of experience. What will 25-year NDE- ers say and do? (As with everything connected with the future of cryonics, it is hubristic to assume that they will all return from an experience of nothingness. You can't prove in advance of the fact that this will be the case. As an issue of faith, I find it easier to accept that the ten minute NDE experience won't hold a candle to a ten-year NDE.'


Just one flaw in your argument, George, a Near Death Experience is not synonomous with actually being dead. Being dead means no more electrical activity in the brain, so no more thoughts, dreams, experiences, visions of tunnels or angel choirs welcoming the dreamer to heaven. Nothing to bring back and bedazzle a hotel conference room full of believers with--for a hefty price, naturally.
You really should compare notes with James Ray.

'What I wanted to do here was to point out that Immortalism could, with relatively little effort, come out of the scientific closet and function as a rather powerful religion.

Professor Ettinger suggested in his message (#10356) that such a religion would require "fellowship, dedication" and "symbolism/liturgy".'

[www.cryonics.uk.com]

Not to mention a very careful avoidance of the appearance of legal fraud.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/16/2010 07:16PM by Stoic.