Current Page: 17 of 133
Re: Desteni
Posted by: wc ()
Date: April 09, 2010 02:49PM

Desteni seems to be the pinnacle of the idea that bullshit baffles brains. Channeling Hitler? Come on!! That is such utter BS!!!

Any one who believes that this lady is channeling Hitler is a total sucker and will most likely believe the most absurd claims possible.

The members of this group are jumping through hoops trying to prove that there is nothing wrong with their belief system and their practices.

If what they say and believe is really common sense then it would almost be self evident and their ideas would not require such a vigorous defense.



Anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices.

--Voltaire

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Re: Desteni Education, Desteni and Adolf Hitler?
Posted by: wc ()
Date: April 09, 2010 03:00PM

Quote
Cameron Cope




I would prefer to establish a person's credibility on whether the information they present is useful information and not on what name they choose to use to present the information.


I know many are reacting to the adolph hitler interviews, but they are clearly not listening to what is being said. Let's just entertain the notion for a moment that it is indeed hitler communicating. why are you not willing to listen to what he has to say? are you in a position to judge him. Have you Rick Ross, or any other person on this forum not made mistakes no matter how grievous? We don't hold you to those mistakes still. We realize that you are capable of forgiving yourself for those mistakes and then correcting yourself and not repeating your mistakes. Perhaps if hitler were to come back from the dead, he would realize the mistakes he made and could offer us some perspective on why he did what he did and how he might have done things differently given the chance. Just a perspective to consider.

--Cameron

A person who says they are channeling Hitler is not credible - prima facie.

All of us are in a position to judge information that is claimed to be from Hitler and to reject it outright.

The fact is Hitler was an atrocious person and I am willing to JUDGE him and his past actions. I will not change my judgement because of some weird, channeled white wash done by a weirdo mind twisting cult that wants power over people and their actions.

Yes I judge. You might try it some time. It might save you some pain.

I am going to assume you are really trying hard to believe this stuff because you seem to be a reasonable person that has had their mind twisted by the teachings of the leader of Desteni. It's ok you can allow yourself to think and leave the group and leave behind their teachings. You are safe here. Admit it. You do not really believe this stuff do you?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/09/2010 03:02PM by wc.

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Re: Desteni
Date: April 09, 2010 04:17PM

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ThomDarc
Here is a lovely brochure like testimony written supposedly by a "Mother" to get people to feel safe about bringing their kids to Desteni Farm: Click Here

I don't know how South Africa legally views issues like child molestation, But in my view the South African government should keep a careful eye on Desteni.

She is my mother too - Leila is my sister. My mother has come to the farm and has seen the Desteni Farm is safe - until you actually have been here - you have no right to claim otherwise.

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Re: Desteni
Date: April 09, 2010 06:51PM

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rrmoderator
Sunette's supposed presentation of historical figures isn't like previously published news articles, court documents or other information at this Web site. Sunette's communications are based upon believing that she is actually a channel using a "portal" so that historical figures and beings can speak through her.

This is where you are mistaken - you do not require to believe to be able to hear.

See - those self-honest within their participation in Desteni and the Deteni message DO NOT CARE whether or not Sunette is able to portal beings from the afterlife. It is irrelevant.

Our participation is based within the practical application of the tools presented. We have done this for ourselves, in our own lives - and experienced the tools to be valid and useful.

Therefore - you may try and discredit Sunette or Bernard Poolman all you want, it will not stop Desteni or anyone who actually applies the material for themselves practically - because our participation is not dependent on them.

This is what Desteni participants have stated from the start, yet - you do not hear - it is as though you are unable to conceive a world where human beings actually hear a suggestion, apply it for themselves, see the results and make a decision based upon these result to yes or no further apply this suggestion - without the need to believe, trust, admire or follow someone else.

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Re: Desteni
Posted by: rrmoderator ()
Date: April 09, 2010 11:32PM

Cameron Cope:

I found your profile online and you seem to be an educated man.

See [edufire.com]

Of course having an education doesn't preclude cult involvement.

Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh/Osho was a notorious cult leader, reportedly 85% of his followers were college graduates, 25% had a post-graduate degree and 15% had doctorates.

See [www.culteducation.com]

And it was a medical doctor that mixed the "kool-aid" at Jonestown.

See [www.culteducation.com]

You have come here to defend Destini, apparently out of self-interest, due to your business concerns.

Bernard Poolman has identified Destini as not a nonprofit, but rather a for-profit privately controlled business.

You have taken pains to separate "Destini Education," which is your business concern, from Destini in South Africa, though you sat that you "agree" with "the directive principle of Destini...personally" and admit that "Bernard [Poolman] offers [you] his advice from time to time..."

The fact that both businesses share the same name is supposedly because you "chose the name desteni education because [you] like it.

OK.

Regarding the claims of Sunette, the trance channeling young woman at Destini, who supposedly speaks for everyone from Hitler to Audrey Hepburn through the use of a purported "InterDimensional Portal," you vacillate back and forth seemingly attempting to please/placate everyone.

You stated, "I do not believe in Dimensional Beings." And admitted, "I do not believe that the beings you mentioned have communicated through Sunette."

Then incredulously added that somehow Sunette nevertheless shared "much useful information."

Please understand that when someone is not who they claim to be, which is the basis of their "information," its usefulness crumbles and dissipates. In this sense Sunette becomes self-referentially incoherent and her information is without any meaningful substance to support it.

She may be a fraud running a con or perhaps simply a disturbed young woman under undue influence within a questionable group. But whatever she is, the rambling communications she presents have no real value, as they don't represent authentic communication, which you have admitted.

In other posts you go back and forth between "I prefer not to hold beliefs about things that I cannot see directly. Therefore I have no belief about dimensional beings. Then advise, "I am not saying that I believe that dimensional beings are not real and that Sunette is lying, but rather that i cannot say because i have no scientifically available method for forming a testable hypothesis."

It seems like you want to have it both ways. That is, to be a credible educator, but not displease the Destini devotees and/or Mr. Poolman.

You said, "Just saying that Desteni uses language to control people's minds is irrelevant because everyone does this."

Not exactly.

There are different forms of persuasion, such as education, advertising, propaganda, indoctrination and thought reform.

And the criticism of Destini is that it uses "loaded language," which comes under the heading of thought reform, commonly called "brainwashing."

Note the distinctions between the various gradations of persuasion as outlined in a chart by noted psychologist Margaret Singer.

See [www.culteducation.com]

Loaded language as defined by psychiatrist Robert Jay Lifton as follows:

See [www.culteducation.com]

"The language of the totalist environment is characterized by the thought-terminating cliché. The most far-reaching and complex of human problems are compressed into brief, highly reductive, definitive-sounding phrases, easily memorized and easily expressed. These become the start and finish of any ideological analysis. In [Chinese Communist] thought reform, for instance, the phrase "bourgeois mentality" is used to encompass and critically dismiss ordinarily troublesome concerns like the quest for individual expression, the exploration of alternative ideas, and the search for perspective and balance in political judgments. And in addition to their function as interpretive shortcuts, these cliches become what Richard Weaver has called "ultimate terms" : either "god terms," representative of ultimate good; or "devil terms," representative of ultimate evil. In [Chinese Communist] thought reform, "progress," "progressive," "liberation," "proletarian standpoints" and "the dialectic of history" fall into the former category; "capitalist," "imperialist," "exploiting classes," and "bourgeois" (mentality, liberalism, morality, superstition, greed) of course fall into the latter. Totalist language then, is repetitiously centered on all-encompassing jargon, prematurely abstract, highly categorical, relentlessly judging, and to anyone but its most devoted advocate, deadly dull: in Lionel Trilling's phrase, "the language of nonthought."

Throughout this thread Destini devotees have used what can be seen as thought-terminating cliches. For example "integrity," "position of integrity," "Self Forgiveness," "Self Honesty," "Self Responsibility," "polarity" and the Destini definition of "common sense."

See [forum.culteducation.com] (ThomDarc entry February 26, 2010)

In my opinion Destini seems to fit within the category of a "cult-like" authoritarian group, which uses thought reform techniques.

I would not recommend Destini to anyone for anything and see it as potentially unsafe.



Edited 6 time(s). Last edit at 04/10/2010 01:45AM by rrmoderator.

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Re: Desteni
Posted by: corboy ()
Date: April 10, 2010 10:15PM

Aleister Crowley was not a helpful role model. He ran through a large inherited fortune, left many followers ruined and crazy, and ended in a boarding house, old, living on donations from followers, and heavily addicted to drugs.

So much for 'Do what thou wilt is the whole of the law.'

Referring to Anticults post previous page

[forum.culteducation.com]

This matter of Hitler is a way to separate those who dont want anything to do with info channelled from such a source, vs those who are not disuaded. Even if not intentional, this could serve to create a very, very tight group and also serve to set an association with such perferences apart from a larger world, based on diversity and open communication, a world mostly horrified by Hitler's legacy.

Guys, it may be that this claim to channel messages from or about Hitler, would serve to to pre-sort prospective recruits.

A) There's a large number of persons out there who believe it is possible to "channel"
information from dead illustrious persons.

B) Corboy suspects that only a very small number of such believers in channeling would have any desire to learn about Adolf Hitler.

My guess is most who are interested in channelled info from dead famous persons would be horrified at the prospect of getting up close and personal with info allegedly channelled from someone like Hitler.

My guess is that most such aspirants might want to communicate with deceased loved ones, or seek channelled information from loving and benevolent dead celebrities and saints, like Francis of Assisi---not perpetrators of genocide and mass torture, such as Hitler.

So...this may, just may be a way of selecting a small but very select group of aspirants who 1) believe there is such a thing as channelling and 2) would even want to learn anything more about Hitler than we already and tragically know.

If you assemble a group sharing this kind of willingness----hmmmm.

Final note:

Folks, if you want to learn about Hitler, go read what came out in the Nuremberg trials.

Two, there are suggestsions that Hitler suffered from syphilis and the level of evidence was enough to convince even Simon Wiesenthal. This chapter from Deborah Hayden's book, Pox:Genius, Madness and the Mystery of Syphilis is well worth reading. More stuff about Hitler than you might ever have imagined. And it isnt from a channeled source, either.

[books.google.com]

And read Robert J Lifton's The Nazi Doctors, to learn how professional otherwise kindly family men dissociated and split their minds in half so they could go home at night after doing terrible things all day.

This is the same Robert J Lifton who developed the valuable diagnostic list by which to assess whether a group is cultic.

[www.nwrain.com]

Quote

Dr. Robert J. Lifton's Criteria for Thought Reform

Any ideology -- that is, any set of emotionally-charged convictions about men and his relationship to the natural or supernatural world -- may be carried by its adherents in a totalistic direction. But this is most likely to occur with those ideologies which are most sweeping in their content and most ambitious or messianic in their claim, whether a religious or political organization. And where totalism exists, a religion, or a political movement becomes little more than an exclusive cult.

Here you will find a set of criteria, eight psychological themes against which any environment may be judged. In combination, they create an atmosphere which may temporarily energize or exhilarate, but which at the same time pose the gravest of human threats.

(a brief outline)

MILIEU CONTROL


The most basic feature is the control of human communication within an environment
If the control is extremely intense, it becomes internalized control -- an attempt to manage an individual's inner communication
Control over all a person sees, hears, reads, writes (information control) creates conflicts in respect to individual autonomy
Groups express this in several ways: Group process, isolation from other people, psychological pressure, geographical distance or unavailable transportation, sometimes physical pressure
Often a sequence of events, such as seminars, lectures, group encounters, which become increasingly intense and increasingly isolated, making it extremely difficult-- both physically and psychologically--for one to leave
Sets up a sense of antagonism with the outside world; it's "us against them"
Closely connected to the process of individual change (of personality)
MYSTICAL MANIPULATION (Planned spontaneity)


Extensive personal manipulation
Seeks to promote specific patterns of behavior and emotion in such a way that it appears to have arisen spontaneously from within the environment, while it actually has been orchestrated
Totalist leaders claim to be agents chosen by God, history, or some supernatural force, to carry out the mystical imperative
The "principles" (God-centered or otherwise) can be put forcibly and claimed exclusively, so that the cult and its beliefs become the only true path to salvation (or enlightenment)
The individual then develops the psychology of the pawn, and participates actively in the manipulation of others
The leader who becomes the center of the mystical manipulation (or the person in whose name it is done) can be sometimes more real than an abstract god and therefore attractive to cult members
Legitimizes the deception used to recruit new members and/or raise funds, and the deception used on the "outside world"
THE DEMAND FOR PURITY


The world becomes sharply divided into the pure and the impure, the absolutely good (the group/ideology) and the absolutely evil (everything outside the group)
One must continually change or conform to the group "norm"
Tendencies towards guilt and shame are used as emotional levers for the group's controlling and manipulative influences
Once a person has experienced the totalist polarization of good/evil (black/white thinking), he has great difficulty in regaining a more balanced inner sensitivity to the complexities of human morality
The radical separation of pure/impure is both within the environment (the group) and the individual
Ties in with the process of confession -- one must confess when one is not conforming
CONFESSION


Cultic confession is carried beyond its ordinary religious, legal and therapeutic expressions to the point of becoming a cult in itself
Sessions in which one confesses to one's sin are accompanied by patterns of criticism and self-criticism, generally transpiring within small groups with an active and dynamic thrust toward personal change
Is an act of symbolic self-surrender
Makes it virtually impossible to attain a reasonable balance between worth and humility
A person confessing to various sins of pre-cultic existence can both believe in those sins and be covering over other ideas and feelings that s/he is either unaware of or reluctant to discuss
Often a person will confess to lesser sins while holding on to other secrets (often criticisms/questions/doubts about the group/leaders that may cause them not to advance to a leadership position)
"The more I accuse myself, the more I have a right to judge you"
SACRED SCIENCE


The totalist milieu maintains an aura of sacredness around its basic doctrine or ideology, holding it as an ultimate moral vision for the ordering of human existence
Questioning or criticizing those basic assumptions is prohibited
A reverence is demanded for the ideology/doctrine, the originators of the ideology/doctrine, the present bearers of the ideology/doctrine
Offers considerable security to young people because it greatly simplifies the world and answers a contemporary need to combine a sacred set of dogmatic principles with a claim to a science embodying the truth about human behavior and human psychology
LOADING THE LANGUAGE


The language of the totalist environment is characterized by the thought-terminating cliche (thought-stoppers)
Repetitiously centered on all-encompassing jargon
"The language of non-thought"
Words are given new meanings -- the outside world does not use the words or phrases in the same way -- it becomes a "group" word or phrase
DOCTRINE OVER PERSON


Every issue in one's life can be reduced to a single set of principles that have an inner coherence to the point that one can claim the experience of truth and feel it
The pattern of doctrine over person occurs when there is a conflict between what one feels oneself experiencing and what the doctrine or ideology says one should experience
If one questions the beliefs of the group or the leaders of the group, one is made to feel that there is something inherently wrong with them to even question -- it is always "turned around" on them and the questioner/criticizer is questioned rather than the questions answered directly
The underlying assumption is that doctrine/ideology is ultimately more valid, true and real than any aspect of actual human character or human experience and one must subject one's experience to that "truth"
The experience of contradiction can be immediately associated with guilt
One is made to feel that doubts are reflections of one's own evil
When doubt arises, conflicts become intense
DISPENSING OF EXISTENCE


Since the group has an absolute or totalist vision of truth, those who are not in the group are bound up in evil, are not enlightened, are not saved, and do not have the right to exist
"Being verses nothingness"
Impediments to legitimate being must be pushed away or destroyed
One outside the group may always receive their right of existence by joining the group
Fear manipulation -- if one leaves this group, one leaves God or loses their transformation, for something bad will happen to them
The group is the "elite", outsiders are "of the world", "evil", "unenlightened", etc.

PS for students interested in Holocaust denialism and how to refute it, here is a huge and most helpful website.

[www.nizkor.org]

The Nizkor Project

"Dedicated to 12 million Holocaust victims who suffered and died
at the hands of Adolf Hitler and his Nazi regime"



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 04/10/2010 10:25PM by corboy.

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Re: Desteni
Posted by: Stoic ()
Date: April 11, 2010 06:44AM

And just to highlight the political aspects of the Hitler channeling, there is still a noticeable contingent of white supremacists active in South Africa, drawn mostly from the white Afrikans farmers, the Boers.
Eugene Terre Blanche, an outspoken Boer white supremacist was recently murdered and his funeral saw a large contingent of supporters dressed in combat fatigues and sporting swastika armbands. These people resent the loss of their previous power in South Africa and find much to admire in Hitler's racial bigotry.
[news.sky.com]

Someone looking for control over others would find an appeal to this less admirable trait in his victims an easy means to override the more rational mind and manipulate their emotions.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/11/2010 06:50AM by Stoic.

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Re: Desteni
Posted by: rrmoderator ()
Date: April 11, 2010 09:43PM

Looks like the Destini crowd has packed up and moved on.

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Re: Desteni
Posted by: corboy ()
Date: April 11, 2010 10:37PM

Use and Abuse of Nazi History and Holocaust Denialism as a Way to Sort Recruits or Destabilize Moral and Emotional Empathy


One way is to actually want to get up close and personal with Adolf Hitler via 'channelling.'

Other groups pervert Nazi history and Holocaust pornography (I cant think of another term at this moment) to destablize peoples inner coherance.

Abusing, trivializing, or even denying and suppressing history is a potent lever by which to pervert our core identities. There are reasons why aggressive imperialists often tried to forbid conquered peoples to speak and write and keep books in thier own languages, and why for example, the Tsarist and Nazi governments forbade conquered nations to such as Poland to teach their own history in schools. When Mme Curie was a girl, she told of how it was a matter of patriotism to study Polish history and literature, and how when the Russian government inspector arrived, the the books would be hidden and Russian language texts would be produced as a display of fake compliance.

But today, the New Wage aggressive colonizers of minds try to estrange us from our personal history and from history itself--by making Hitler seem worthy company with wisdom to impart.

Years ago, in 1997, an American born buddy of mine moved with her husband to Holland. She admitted she loved the area but it was so peaceful (at that time) that she often felt bored.

'I told her, 'X, go out and talk with your elderly neighbors. Look for people old enough to have survived World War II and the years 1945-1947 in Holland, when there were still food shortages and lack of fuel.

'Ask them what they went through. Then you will go home and thank God for boredom.'


Thats yet another reason to hang around with elderly people. They can give you perspective on real history, the kind that hurts and that leaves real marks on the body and mind.


On other sections of this message board there have been some interesting discussions
of how some New Wage entrepreneurs have created material of this kind.

Discussion of a book that perverts Nazism by linking it to God read this from The Anticult posted on July 07, 2008 05:29AM

[forum.culteducation.com]


(Discussion of a book, Losing the Moon) read the post by Anticult July 06, 2008 10:55PM

[forum.culteducation.com]
[forum.culteducation.com]

[forum.culteducation.com]

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Re: Desteni
Posted by: rrmoderator ()
Date: April 11, 2010 11:15PM

Corboy:

This thread is about Destini.

Let's try to stay focused fairly tightly on the topic.

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