Re: Sogyal Lakar aka Rinpoche
Posted by:
pema
()
Date: May 17, 2009 04:21AM
Hi Poodle,
Please will you be specific about the nature of your doubts?
Doubt around the truth behind the allegations about Sogyal's abusive behaviour?
Doubts about the authenticity of S's claims to be a qualified lama?
Doubts about Rigpa as a healthy environment?
I share your surprise that Sogyal has got away with so much for so long -- but as I have already stated, I have reason to believe that he will soon face his nemesis. There is a groundswell of opinion that he cannot be allowed to continue being a depraved sadist/money-grabbing materialist/liar and evil-tempered spoiled brat behind the scenes -- and el numero uno populist Tibetan guru in public. Michael Lyons thought he could carry on regardless -- and he's now on trial in the UK. Members of the UK parliament have been ripping off tax payers for a long time -- they thought they were immune. Sogyal's delusions of grandeur will surely come crashing down to planet earth with a very nasty thud. There's too much evidence out there, too many disgruntled victims and an unstoppable momentum towards cleaning out the Augean stables.
Please will you be specific about the nature of your doubts?
Doubt around the truth behind the allegations about Sogyal's abusive behaviour?
Doubts about the authenticity of S's claims to be a qualified lama?
Doubts about Rigpa as a healthy environment?
I share your surprise that Sogyal has got away with so much for so long -- but as I have already stated, I have reason to believe that he will soon face his nemesis. There is a groundswell of opinion that he cannot be allowed to continue being a depraved sadist/money-grabbing materialist/liar and evil-tempered spoiled brat behind the scenes -- and el numero uno populist Tibetan guru in public. Michael Lyons thought he could carry on regardless -- and he's now on trial in the UK. Members of the UK parliament have been ripping off tax payers for a long time -- they thought they were immune. Sogyal's delusions of grandeur will surely come crashing down to planet earth with a very nasty thud. There's too much evidence out there, too many disgruntled victims and an unstoppable momentum towards cleaning out the Augean stables.
Re: Sogyal Lakar aka Rinpoche
Posted by:
poodle
()
Date: May 18, 2009 08:28PM
Hi Pema,
I am cautious by nature, perhaps one may say fearful, but I also learned to avoid judging people too soon, whether they are famous or not.
It is clear that you made up your mind and I understand, and admire, your efforts.
I personally wouldn't be able to spend such a long time on a quest like this.
Nevertheless, it has become clear to me that Rigpa is not an healthy environment for many reasons, regardless of 'Soggy' behavior.
I trust you have evidence to support your claims and that we will see them come out at the right time.
My doubts come from my wondering as to why so many 'victims' are remaining silent.
I am not an expert, not even knowledgeable, about the psychological status these people find themselves into.
The fear of being excluded, for those who do not comply with the 'illusion', is quite palpable whilst in Rigpa, so I would have expected things to get easier once the effort to break off has been made.
I read about how many may still be in a 'victim' state, perhaps that's enough.
I am sorry, I suppose I am just rambling on my keyboard instead of doing so just in my head...
I am cautious by nature, perhaps one may say fearful, but I also learned to avoid judging people too soon, whether they are famous or not.
It is clear that you made up your mind and I understand, and admire, your efforts.
I personally wouldn't be able to spend such a long time on a quest like this.
Nevertheless, it has become clear to me that Rigpa is not an healthy environment for many reasons, regardless of 'Soggy' behavior.
I trust you have evidence to support your claims and that we will see them come out at the right time.
My doubts come from my wondering as to why so many 'victims' are remaining silent.
I am not an expert, not even knowledgeable, about the psychological status these people find themselves into.
The fear of being excluded, for those who do not comply with the 'illusion', is quite palpable whilst in Rigpa, so I would have expected things to get easier once the effort to break off has been made.
I read about how many may still be in a 'victim' state, perhaps that's enough.
I am sorry, I suppose I am just rambling on my keyboard instead of doing so just in my head...
Re: Sogyal Lakar aka Rinpoche
Posted by:
pema
()
Date: May 18, 2009 08:47PM
Its OK Poodle -- you ramble some good points. I can't respond at length at the moment but will post here again soon -- hopefully with a constructive update.
Re: Sogyal Lakar aka Rinpoche
Posted by:
poodle
()
Date: May 18, 2009 09:00PM
Dear Pema,
Your inbox of personal messages on this forum is full.
That makes it impossible to send you any new ones.
Your inbox of personal messages on this forum is full.
That makes it impossible to send you any new ones.
Re: Sogyal Lakar aka Rinpoche
Posted by:
pema
()
Date: May 20, 2009 10:12PM
I've just discovered another source of information about Sogyal and Rigpa.
[dialogueireland.wordpress.com]
gives an account of an incident in 1998 involving a man jumping to his death from a window while staying at the Rgpa centre in Ireland. Also on Dialogue Ireland is a briefing paper giving comprehensive info on Soggy's sins and misdemeanoours.
Poodle -- I know my private message box is full. I've tried to unblock it, but to no avail. rrmoderator please note.
[dialogueireland.wordpress.com]
gives an account of an incident in 1998 involving a man jumping to his death from a window while staying at the Rgpa centre in Ireland. Also on Dialogue Ireland is a briefing paper giving comprehensive info on Soggy's sins and misdemeanoours.
Poodle -- I know my private message box is full. I've tried to unblock it, but to no avail. rrmoderator please note.
Re: Sogyal Lakar aka Rinpoche
Posted by:
pema
()
Date: May 22, 2009 06:27PM
I have been reviewing some testimonies from former participants at Rigpa France. One in particular speaks about cultish manipulation and pressures. For example:
Difficult to have a healthy relationship with Sogyal because he is viewed as and treated as a god
You are not allowed to doubt
Sogyal frequently extremely late for teachings -- several hours was not unusual. Very disrespectful to participants -- especially those living a long way from the centre.
Pressure to accept Rigpa as your family and to give up your old life
There is a single format and you have to follow it.
Whatever Sogyal does even if abusive is seen as a teaching. In this way everything can be justified.
Told that to invest money in Rigpa is the best thing you can do for your salvation
A man who had worked on the Lerab Ling centre in France from the start and had devoted his life and energy to it was fired as a result of a divination.
Deception was seen as part of the path.
There is a lot more evidence of this nature -- many aspects are corroborated from several sources.
Difficult to have a healthy relationship with Sogyal because he is viewed as and treated as a god
You are not allowed to doubt
Sogyal frequently extremely late for teachings -- several hours was not unusual. Very disrespectful to participants -- especially those living a long way from the centre.
Pressure to accept Rigpa as your family and to give up your old life
There is a single format and you have to follow it.
Whatever Sogyal does even if abusive is seen as a teaching. In this way everything can be justified.
Told that to invest money in Rigpa is the best thing you can do for your salvation
A man who had worked on the Lerab Ling centre in France from the start and had devoted his life and energy to it was fired as a result of a divination.
Deception was seen as part of the path.
There is a lot more evidence of this nature -- many aspects are corroborated from several sources.
Re: Sogyal Lakar aka Rinpoche
Posted by:
pema
()
Date: May 25, 2009 07:17PM
Below is the personal testimony of one of Sogyal’s close personal assistants who ran one of Riga’s European centres for several years, before leaving after becoming increasingly disenchanted by Sogyal’s actions. It was posted on Dialogue Ireland (see url in my previous post)
In the mid 80’s, during my seven years with Rigpa and 4 years as founding director of a national Rigpa branch, I had slowly discovered that Sogyal Rinpoche had sex with very many disciples. Even though I was very close to SR, it took me some time to notice the obvious. Even though I am a professional counsellor, it took me quite some time to notice it at all, and then it took me even more time to take action. First, at the same time I was shocked and kind of amused, I had mixed feelings about it, because in the beginning I saw that some women tried to get him. First I thought, they are mature woman, they know what they are doing, and I simply am too inexperienced in the exotic ways of Tibetan Lamas to be able to judge. It was much later that I heard stories and saw things which were not based on consent, and saw that he was cheating all the time on the women. Also I noticed that he had sex with young students who just had come to Rigpa retreats for the first time.
There was the harem, and the women seemed to be able and ok with their role in the game. At least I wanted to believe this, still trying to see SR as a holy man. On the other hand, I always found obstacles to consider SR as my guru. I considered myself at that time more like a Buddhist manager and some kind of assistant to SR, rather than as a disciple of his. I could see Dilgo Khyentse or the Dalai Lama as true masters, but SR appeared to me to be just a teacher who teaches Buddhism, or more likely a salesman who sells Buddhism. When I was in charge of my national Rigpa branch, I always exaggerated his qualities in the flyers I produced. I said to SR: either you are true and good and people will find out themselves, or if not they will also find out. So don’t tell them what they should think or how good they should think about you. True quality will speak for itself. With me, he accepted such words, but I heard my successors had to write up his qualities.
I confronted Sogyal first jokingly, then half-heartedly, with my concerns about his behaviour, and I said to him that as a therapist I knew about the transference phenomenon: students see the teacher as kind of a father figure, so sex with the student is psychologically seen as incest. Also, that in the West, the relationship between teacher and student, or priest and the parishioner, must be kept pure, and does not allow for intimate relationships involving sex in any way. He was not amused, and tried to avoid the subject, but he first tried to justify his sexual behaviour spiritually.
First he said that because he is one of the incarnations of Padmasambhava, and that Padmasambhava had many “spiritual consorts”, he would be somehow entitled to do so. Then he played the cultural card: in Tibetan culture women are seen as Dakinis, and they would happily serve the Lamas for enhancing their spiritual power and so on. I am ashamed, but first I wanted to believe all this. I was brought up in a prudish, bourgeois Catholic environment. I was used to playing roughshod with the truth, and to idealize and respect people of position even more than supposedly “holy” men. My spiritual and emotional hunger made be blind to my own values and my professional standards – at least where the standards of the Lama were concerned, however, fortunately not in my own work.
For some years I was blinded by my position of power. I felt that I was establishing a very well-run organisation together with other dear friends which was benefiting many people. I was happy. I was in a very special position. I honestly tried to use my position to the best of my ability. I felt I was chosen, and because of karmic connections with Sogyal, I was finally realising my full potential.
The bitter irony is that because other students saw me as a rather independent, seemingly critical, and reasonable person and because of my professional status as a psychotherapist, some people viewed me as endorsing Sogyal. In fact they envied my special access to SR. I could no longer ignore what was happening. On one occasion Sogyal wanted me to lie on the phone to a woman, who wanted to contact him after having had sex with him but had found that he was in bed with another woman. I refused to be a party to his affairs. He became very angry and yelled at me, but I was not impressed. Basically, he always treated me very well. He seemingly respected me, but now I think he was clever enough not to treat me badly like some of the other students so I would remain loyal. He gave me the feeling that he appreciated my views at least as long I helped him to please the audience and the students. But he never was open to criticism concerning his personal behaviour. Also, he never answered any of my personal spiritual questions. I got more and more the impression that he simply could not answer them. Also, when I attended sessions where he should answer questions from his students, he often gave very stupid answers, and showed that he had not much understanding of what people were really asking. Sometimes he ridiculed people to cover this up.
One of the worst things I experienced was at a winter retreat in Germany. A long term student of his was in emotional distress and asked in obvious pain, vulnerability and confusion for his help, and he forced her to speak louder and then to come forward to the stage where he put her down completely. In my view, he was totally afraid of her, and could not deal with the situation at all. But instead of putting her into safe hands, he tried to save himself by putting her down and ridiculing her, and then played the strong teacher who can deal with everything. That same night, we had to rush her to the emergency ward of the nearest psychiatric hospital with a nervous breakdown and a psychotic seizure.
As a therapist and as a student, I was horrified by his behaviour and his complete lack of compassion and skill. Before I left Rigpa, an American woman told me confidentially and in great distress that she had just lost her husband and had come from US to France to SR to get help, and that SR, during a private audience, had tried to violently force her to have sex with him. Fortunately, she managed to escape being raped. She left the retreat in even greater despair and completely shocked. This was the worst incident which I heard at first hand.
SR did not respect any limits: he had sex with most of the wives of the leading students at Rigpa. I tried to keep myself and my private life out of his. I tried not to get mixed up with his affairs. Sogyal had a classical harem, and he knew all the tricks to make the obvious invisible, or if that did not work, to change the context of the students’ values, giving the whole thing a spiritual excuse, and abuse fears and naivety, or the good belief of his students to get what he wanted. It’s 12 years ago since I quit Rigpa, so I have no first-hand information of SR’s activities now, but I must say I have little doubt that everything is the same today, because I consider him an addict. He is hooked on sex and power.
When I have more time I will write more professionally on the psychology of the guru-student relationship and of abuse. What interests me most is why people “allow themselves” to be abused and what hinders them to see the truth. And how to help others to discover their own truth, and how to stop people like SR from going on.
In the mid 80’s, during my seven years with Rigpa and 4 years as founding director of a national Rigpa branch, I had slowly discovered that Sogyal Rinpoche had sex with very many disciples. Even though I was very close to SR, it took me some time to notice the obvious. Even though I am a professional counsellor, it took me quite some time to notice it at all, and then it took me even more time to take action. First, at the same time I was shocked and kind of amused, I had mixed feelings about it, because in the beginning I saw that some women tried to get him. First I thought, they are mature woman, they know what they are doing, and I simply am too inexperienced in the exotic ways of Tibetan Lamas to be able to judge. It was much later that I heard stories and saw things which were not based on consent, and saw that he was cheating all the time on the women. Also I noticed that he had sex with young students who just had come to Rigpa retreats for the first time.
There was the harem, and the women seemed to be able and ok with their role in the game. At least I wanted to believe this, still trying to see SR as a holy man. On the other hand, I always found obstacles to consider SR as my guru. I considered myself at that time more like a Buddhist manager and some kind of assistant to SR, rather than as a disciple of his. I could see Dilgo Khyentse or the Dalai Lama as true masters, but SR appeared to me to be just a teacher who teaches Buddhism, or more likely a salesman who sells Buddhism. When I was in charge of my national Rigpa branch, I always exaggerated his qualities in the flyers I produced. I said to SR: either you are true and good and people will find out themselves, or if not they will also find out. So don’t tell them what they should think or how good they should think about you. True quality will speak for itself. With me, he accepted such words, but I heard my successors had to write up his qualities.
I confronted Sogyal first jokingly, then half-heartedly, with my concerns about his behaviour, and I said to him that as a therapist I knew about the transference phenomenon: students see the teacher as kind of a father figure, so sex with the student is psychologically seen as incest. Also, that in the West, the relationship between teacher and student, or priest and the parishioner, must be kept pure, and does not allow for intimate relationships involving sex in any way. He was not amused, and tried to avoid the subject, but he first tried to justify his sexual behaviour spiritually.
First he said that because he is one of the incarnations of Padmasambhava, and that Padmasambhava had many “spiritual consorts”, he would be somehow entitled to do so. Then he played the cultural card: in Tibetan culture women are seen as Dakinis, and they would happily serve the Lamas for enhancing their spiritual power and so on. I am ashamed, but first I wanted to believe all this. I was brought up in a prudish, bourgeois Catholic environment. I was used to playing roughshod with the truth, and to idealize and respect people of position even more than supposedly “holy” men. My spiritual and emotional hunger made be blind to my own values and my professional standards – at least where the standards of the Lama were concerned, however, fortunately not in my own work.
For some years I was blinded by my position of power. I felt that I was establishing a very well-run organisation together with other dear friends which was benefiting many people. I was happy. I was in a very special position. I honestly tried to use my position to the best of my ability. I felt I was chosen, and because of karmic connections with Sogyal, I was finally realising my full potential.
The bitter irony is that because other students saw me as a rather independent, seemingly critical, and reasonable person and because of my professional status as a psychotherapist, some people viewed me as endorsing Sogyal. In fact they envied my special access to SR. I could no longer ignore what was happening. On one occasion Sogyal wanted me to lie on the phone to a woman, who wanted to contact him after having had sex with him but had found that he was in bed with another woman. I refused to be a party to his affairs. He became very angry and yelled at me, but I was not impressed. Basically, he always treated me very well. He seemingly respected me, but now I think he was clever enough not to treat me badly like some of the other students so I would remain loyal. He gave me the feeling that he appreciated my views at least as long I helped him to please the audience and the students. But he never was open to criticism concerning his personal behaviour. Also, he never answered any of my personal spiritual questions. I got more and more the impression that he simply could not answer them. Also, when I attended sessions where he should answer questions from his students, he often gave very stupid answers, and showed that he had not much understanding of what people were really asking. Sometimes he ridiculed people to cover this up.
One of the worst things I experienced was at a winter retreat in Germany. A long term student of his was in emotional distress and asked in obvious pain, vulnerability and confusion for his help, and he forced her to speak louder and then to come forward to the stage where he put her down completely. In my view, he was totally afraid of her, and could not deal with the situation at all. But instead of putting her into safe hands, he tried to save himself by putting her down and ridiculing her, and then played the strong teacher who can deal with everything. That same night, we had to rush her to the emergency ward of the nearest psychiatric hospital with a nervous breakdown and a psychotic seizure.
As a therapist and as a student, I was horrified by his behaviour and his complete lack of compassion and skill. Before I left Rigpa, an American woman told me confidentially and in great distress that she had just lost her husband and had come from US to France to SR to get help, and that SR, during a private audience, had tried to violently force her to have sex with him. Fortunately, she managed to escape being raped. She left the retreat in even greater despair and completely shocked. This was the worst incident which I heard at first hand.
SR did not respect any limits: he had sex with most of the wives of the leading students at Rigpa. I tried to keep myself and my private life out of his. I tried not to get mixed up with his affairs. Sogyal had a classical harem, and he knew all the tricks to make the obvious invisible, or if that did not work, to change the context of the students’ values, giving the whole thing a spiritual excuse, and abuse fears and naivety, or the good belief of his students to get what he wanted. It’s 12 years ago since I quit Rigpa, so I have no first-hand information of SR’s activities now, but I must say I have little doubt that everything is the same today, because I consider him an addict. He is hooked on sex and power.
When I have more time I will write more professionally on the psychology of the guru-student relationship and of abuse. What interests me most is why people “allow themselves” to be abused and what hinders them to see the truth. And how to help others to discover their own truth, and how to stop people like SR from going on.
Re: Sogyal Lakar aka Rinpoche
Posted by:
pema
()
Date: May 25, 2009 07:22PM
My private message box is now operational
Re: Sogyal Lakar aka Rinpoche
Posted by:
corboy
()
Date: May 25, 2009 11:55PM
This article deals with 'playing the cultural card'
[web.archive.org]
(archived on Internet archive, aka Wayback Machine)
How to Spot Abusive Teachers.
The second article addresses those persons who think they want to have sex with a teacher.
Aside from the stuff the author describes, a person who thinks she wants to have sex with a teacher needs to examine whether she really is gonna get empowered by this or not.
More likely she is going to be relegated to a degrading, secretive position, with no one to confide in, and it will very likely re-enact the abusive early family dynamics that led this person to think she could get any benefit from bedding a teacher.
A student who foolishly tries to bed a guru will, more often than not, find herself being blamed and scapegoated for any troubles the guru has. The guru himself may be the one to scapegoat her--just as abused tiny children get accused of disrupting 'family harmony.'
Anyone who thinks she wants sex with a teacher should avoid gurus and look for a capable therapist.
Now...any teacher who INITIATES this, or who fails to maintain boundaries when attempts are made to seduce him is failing in his role.
A teachers duty is, like Buddha to withstand temptation.
[web.archive.org]
(from the internet archive)
[web.archive.org]
(archived on Internet archive, aka Wayback Machine)
How to Spot Abusive Teachers.
Quote
How to Spot Abusive Spiritual Teachers
By Yari
Use Some Common Sense
If a teacher talks what sounds like the good talk, but is sexually promiscuous with his students, committing adultery, or both then this is a red flag. If he is sixty having sexual union with an 18 year-old student what does that say about his character? It is amazing how many people tolerate such behavior with their teachers--even support it. It is interesting to see how these sorts of spiritual predators operate. First they will gain the trust and a certain level of intimacy with their prospective prey. They may even do binding rituals to gain control over the intended's will. Then when they have the total confidence of their prey and have managed to hypnotize them to a degree, they will pounce. If you can see flows of energy, you can see how this type of predator rips people off. His charisma is stolen from his prey. If someone is enlightened they will not feel any need for sexual (union divine forces is many times more soul-fulfilling) and would certainly not behave in a way that could damage his student's mental stability.
My discussion refers to teachers who live in our culture. If you go to some tribe in the Amazon and the shaman wants to make you one of his 5 wives, that is not what I am talking about. Each culture has their own standards. In some native cultures the adults fondle the genitals of the young children to calm them down. In their culture this is normal and not child abuse. If a shaman from such tribe moves to this country though, it would be expected that some of his modalities of behavior should adjust.
Don't Tolerate Humiliation and Abuse
This is a touchy subject because a good mentor needs to point out the weaknesses in your character and your logic process in order for you to heal and strengthen yourself. It is very painful to face these weaknesses full on, but this is not what I am talking about. What I am talking about is someone who makes you crawl on your hands and knees to meet them, or accuses you of being the reason everyone else in the group is having problems in their lives, or who leaves you bleeding instead of driving you to the hospital; someone who tries to force you to do something that is against your better judgment, tries to separate you from your family and friends, tries to convince you that having sex with him is part of the initiation process or threatens you.
Don't Get Attached
The spiritual path is about freedom, not dependence. There are a lot of teachers out there and a lot of traditions and if you have the opportunity to experience different teachers and traditions then why not? If your spiritual mentor is telling you not to visit other teachers, this is another red flag. Maybe there is something he doesn't want you to find out that you might just find out if you look around. Think about it. Would one of your professors at the University tell you not to take courses from other professors, or in other departments? A well-rounded education provides for multiple instructors and exposure to different ideas. Some of the best spiritual experiences I had were triggered from something someone said that fit a piece in the puzzle so to speak. Perhaps I saw that person one time and will never see her again. I got a gift from just one experience with them, and perhaps that is enough. They probably had no idea what happened to me. Your spiritual path is a personal path and that is the beauty of it. Don't limit the possibilities by limiting your experience.
Even if forcing you to crawl on your hands and knees is in their tradition, teachers who self-indulge in these sorts of demands should know better by now. The teacher is no better than you. They may have transcended fear and most of the dismal emotions that you still indulge in, but they are no better than you. When I was in Dharamsala and went for private interviews, I would do the normal bowing 3 times, but the masters who I really respected would wave me up and have me sit on a chair when I tried this.
Ask yourself why they would have you behave in ways that puts an obvious status gap between you and them--where they will appear holier than you. There is no possible reason for indulgence in self-aggrandizement on their part and it certainly won't help you in your personal development. It will likely make you feel more pathetic then you did. You are only pathetic if you indulge in soul depleting emotions or you let people take advantage of you.
A teacher may set tasks for you. In the process of completing them you might learn certain flaws about yourself, but a teacher hardly needs to do this because life does it anyway. We just need to see what's going on and be flexible enough to change. So if a teacher is humiliating you for his own satisfaction this is a kind of abuse. Either leave or call him on it. Tell him that you will not accept abuse and if he behaves this way towards you again that you will leave. If he doesn't care if you leave, why are you there? It's the same with an abusive spouse. Don't tolerate the same abuse over and over. Tell your spouse the first time it happens that you don't tolerate that kind of behavior and if it happens again you will leave. And if it happens again then LEAVE. Don't wait years justifying the behavior of an abusive spouse or guide saying that well after all you really love each other or whatever else you tell yourself or your girl friends that keeps you locked in. If you stay there and accept the abuse, you are masochistically flirting with death because the dynamic is anti-life.
Abuse from a spiritual teacher can be as bad or worse than abuse from a parent because you expose all your weaknesses to your teacher in order for a chance to be released from what torments you. It a teacher takes advantage of your exposure and your love for him he can wreak permanent damage.
Watch Your Dreams and Feelings
Sometimes the spirits will try to communicate to you about those around you through your dreams. The spirit of the Ayuhausca plant once told me that two of my mentors at the time where not my friends. I continued with them but with much more caution. The spirit turned out to be right. Another time I received a dream where a young girl told me that if certain things did not change by a certain date that I was to leave the teacher I was with. She detailed for me why the relationship was not a good fit for me. I continued with him past the date that she gave me, but on hindsight I realized her analysis and advice was accurate.
Are You Getting Anywhere?
If the methods given to you by your teacher are working you should notice an improvement in health, you will be less subject to negative feelings and increased lucidity and extraordinary experiences. The assumption here is that your primary purpose is your spiritual development. If it is primarily to make friends then there are perhaps better venues for that. Not long ago I went to a Tibetan Dzogchen retreat. The teacher told the group, "Look I have been coming here to teach you for years, if you are not getting it by now, then go do something else. If nothing is happening, then this is not for you. Don't stay here just because your friends are here. If that is what you are doing you are wasting all of our time."
Everything May Not Be As it First Appears
Be particularly suspicious if there is any sort of ritual with the apparent purpose of bonding the student to the teacher. There is a type of binding magic used to subjugate the will of the student to that of the master. This might make it easier for the master to make sure you continue to look after his financial and sexual needs and that you will rationalize any indiscretions you observe to his favor.
It is important it is to find out as much as you can about a teacher before you get involved in his group. If you see signs of promiscuity with students, financial motivation, or psychological control don't get involved. An enlightened teacher who cares about the welfare of his students will not abuse them sexually, financially, nor psychologically. Sometimes potential students suspect such behavior is going on, but rationalize joining the group anyway on the basis that they can learn what is worthwhile and then leave anytime. But the more involved you become, the more likely you will become energetically "hooked". Once you have formed bonds with the teacher and the people in the organization it is a lot more difficult to leave. In the worst cases, you will not be allowed to leave at all. Those that took poison with Jim Jones did not sign an agreement that this was acceptable to them when they joined the group.
When you look for a spiritual teacher it is important to look at the person's actions as well as their words. Sometimes this is difficult to do because people are not likely to tell the dirt on their teacher. You may have to contact people who left the organization in order to find out and then try to read the truth in the energy of the delivery. Remember that you cannot necessarily tell much about the guy just by looking at him. Successful criminals are very charismatic; that's what makes them successful.
Teachers who abuse students may look radiant.
They will size you up and figure out what your hooks are. They might look you in the eye and listen to your deepest fears, pretending that they know much more about you then you know about yourself. They may imply that they hold some secret knowledge that will be revealed to you later. They might tell you that there is something dark about you, perhaps something from a past life, that you need them to help you overcome. They might put their arm around you with what appears to be paternal affection, but once a predator has gained your confidence, they may pull you down to their bedside or ask you to do something else that would have been morally unacceptable to you before you were involved with the group. This wake up call could happen years after you joined.
The second article addresses those persons who think they want to have sex with a teacher.
Aside from the stuff the author describes, a person who thinks she wants to have sex with a teacher needs to examine whether she really is gonna get empowered by this or not.
More likely she is going to be relegated to a degrading, secretive position, with no one to confide in, and it will very likely re-enact the abusive early family dynamics that led this person to think she could get any benefit from bedding a teacher.
A student who foolishly tries to bed a guru will, more often than not, find herself being blamed and scapegoated for any troubles the guru has. The guru himself may be the one to scapegoat her--just as abused tiny children get accused of disrupting 'family harmony.'
Anyone who thinks she wants sex with a teacher should avoid gurus and look for a capable therapist.
Now...any teacher who INITIATES this, or who fails to maintain boundaries when attempts are made to seduce him is failing in his role.
A teachers duty is, like Buddha to withstand temptation.
[web.archive.org]
(from the internet archive)
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Considering Having Sexual Relations With Your Guru? (Priest, Lama, Nagual, Shaman, or Therapist)
By Yari
As we have seen with the Catholic priest scandal, a career as a spiritual teacher may be very attractive to sexual predators. Women have approached me distraught over spiritual teachers they had sexual relations with. I am assuming for the purpose of this article that the teacher is a male--I just haven't found that women teachers have a habit of seducing their students. I did hear of just one case where this was supposedly happening, so if this is the case then the same points apply.
The women who spoke to me each had a short-lived affair with their teacher and were then rejected for another women or for several other women. They felt ripped-off and energetically depleted. If you are considering this level of intimacy with your teacher, first try to understand your motivations and the special circumstances that surround a teacher and his group.
Teachers have a certain charisma or they would not be able to attract students in the first place. The more students that they attract, the stronger the energy vortex around them becomes. This is addictive to both the teacher and to the students. This magnetism can help you make spiritual progress, but it can also make it much easier for the teacher to seduce or manipulate his students. The teacher will not find it as easy to attract someone from outside the group. It is always easier to seduce someone who looks up to you as a leader.
There is a certain inequality in this type of sexually intimate relationship that makes the teacher feel powerful. It is a relationship where someone (the weaker) is conquered by the magnetic qualities of the stronger one. It is very much a predatory type of relationship because the partners are not on a socially equal footing within the group. For someone with a "bad boy complex" predatory affairs are extremely sexually arousing. In the same way some people find sex with children or other people's partners arousing. The teacher may imply that he is choosing you as a partner because he sees your spiritual potential and wants some sort of tantric relationship with you for your mutual spiritual development. This is probably not at all the case. Don't let your ego fool you about this. If it were true, he would marry you and establish a committed, loyal relationship with you.
Try to reflect on the reason you first came to this teacher. Did you come for spiritual teachings or did you come for sex? Once I heard a woman say, "if I have sex with my teacher it will speed up my spiritual process." I propose the opposite is true. You can use the energy of attraction and love to progress spiritually, but once the relationship is consummated sexually, that particular type of valuable energy generated from attraction, will never be accessible to you again with that person. There is immense power in the energy of unconsummated love.
I have heard cases where the teacher proposes that his sacred semen will bring the student closer to god or enlightenment. Any teacher who proposes such a thing is not enlightened. Don't let him bluff you into believing he is getting off for your sake. Ask yourself if the Dalai Lama would behave this way.
If you didn't go to the teacher for spiritual teachings, if you just saw him and thought, "I am going to seduce him" and your whole relationship centers on your trying to seduce him, well this is a totally different situation. It is similar to girls who try to seduce rock stars. If this is your situation then ask yourself why you are doing it. Will having sex with this person make you feel more important? Do you think people will look up to you because the subject of their adoration is having sex with you? Just know that his appreciation of you will probably be short-lived and you will likely be looked at with a certain disdain rather than as someone special by both him and the rest of the group.
When you have sex with a spiritual teacher (or anyone) you are creating an energetic link that does not go away. And the energy will naturally flow to the stronger of the two. A knowledgable predator can suck your energy like sucking juice from a straw, but it can even happen unintentionally. This can cause you to fall into despondency and can lead you to a breakdown or even suicide. It will certainly not aid in your spiritual development. Your spiritual development has a lot to do with becoming more independent--less needy. It has to do with developing the links to Spirit that will provide you with your soul needs. Obsession over a teacher, or obsession over anyone or anything, will hinder this development. That is why spiritual practitioners may choose to forego sex and significant-other-type relationships all together.
If you have had sex with a teacher and you find yourself in a less than desirable mental and emotional state over it, there are things you can do. First understand your weakness that caused you to do this. Recapitulate the situation and pull your energy back from it. Then find someone to help you cut the energetic bonds. It will certainly take leaving the teacher in question and probably take many intensive rituals where you focus your intent on breaking this bond. I suggest rituals that are extremely energetic where you are using every possible means to symbolize this break. This is much more effective than just talking to friends or just visualizing breaking the bond.
If you continue to obsess over this person, then your methods have not worked and you need to keep trying perhaps with different techniques. In any case do not give up and don't get yourself in a similar mess again. Learn from your mistakes.
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Re: Sogyal Lakar aka Rinpoche
Posted by:
corboy
()
Date: May 26, 2009 12:02AM
Finally, it is worth facing that many of these Tibetan teachers get prestige by having lots of Western students.
It may be that if a Tibetan teacher can win the loyalty of a psychotherapist, or some other professional with good community standing, this is a prize recruit who gives a reassuring presence.
A therapist, a physician, a scientist who is used to being his or her own boss may never imagine that he or she is been seen as a high value recruit, as high value chess piece in their Tibetan or Indian gurus, long term strategy.
Sogyal also got very lucky finding a way to have Andrew Harvey, a known and respected spiritual author, assist him in writing the first edition of the Living and Dying book.
A misbehaving teacher may take special care to conceal his bad behavior from a prize recruit whose presence and professional affiliations give a derivative legitimacy to the whole set up. A psychotherapist can be a valuable 'stage prop.'
Indian gurus gained prestige they never had in India once they acquired a following of western recruits. The same dynamic, termed 'pizza effect' may apply to the Tibetan teachers. If they can display scientists, movie stars, therapists, physicians amongst their followers, all the better.
and
A personal suggestion--
In the long run, if one wants to practice Buddha dharma, it may be best to look for a center that is democratically run, where all members can vote, and where the money all stays inside your nation, and the books are periodically audited by an outside accountancy firm, and minutes of all meetings are available to be read by the community
My concern is that if money is sent out of the country to Tibet or India, it becomes nearly impossible to tell whether it is being used properly, or God forbid, used to support some political party whose agendas would be repugnant to most liberals who are attracted to the various forms of Hinduism or Buddism.
The exception might be reputable clinics or medical projects carefully supervised to ensure the money is spent on services, and does not disppear into the purses of corrupt dignitaries--or their greedy relatives.
Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 05/26/2009 12:19AM by corboy.
It may be that if a Tibetan teacher can win the loyalty of a psychotherapist, or some other professional with good community standing, this is a prize recruit who gives a reassuring presence.
A therapist, a physician, a scientist who is used to being his or her own boss may never imagine that he or she is been seen as a high value recruit, as high value chess piece in their Tibetan or Indian gurus, long term strategy.
Sogyal also got very lucky finding a way to have Andrew Harvey, a known and respected spiritual author, assist him in writing the first edition of the Living and Dying book.
A misbehaving teacher may take special care to conceal his bad behavior from a prize recruit whose presence and professional affiliations give a derivative legitimacy to the whole set up. A psychotherapist can be a valuable 'stage prop.'
Indian gurus gained prestige they never had in India once they acquired a following of western recruits. The same dynamic, termed 'pizza effect' may apply to the Tibetan teachers. If they can display scientists, movie stars, therapists, physicians amongst their followers, all the better.
Quote
Western Converts--Trophies for India Gurus
or...a wee lecture on Pizza Effect
(PS it is a lovely and wonderful cooincidence that one of the contributors to this thread is named 'pizzaslap'. C)
Folks, it is not just our money that Indian gurus want.
They want us. Because as Westerners, we are stage props for them. The more of us they can attract to them, the more prestige they get in India.
So...note the trick: get materialistic westerners to wear khadi, sit on the dirt floor of your camp or ashram, and use us as stage props to impress your wealthy Indian political cronies!
Westerners to gurus what fashion accessories are for Paris Hilton. We are bling in human form.
And if you are pale skinned or look to be from the upper classes, you are like a 50 carat diamond. If you are British and from the old upper classes---a sahib or memsahib, you are going to be a high value collectors item for an Indian guru and if you have money and social contacts, all the better.
It also means you will be carefully insulated from the actual abuses suffered by lower ranking Westerners who are assigned peon jobs in the ashram. Having their former conquerors working as servants, doing the sort of work only done by Indian lower castes or dalits is a thrill to Indian onlookers who see the guru as a brilliant chap, when he comes home to Bharat/Rishi Bhoomi with a retinue of subserviant westerners.
Quote:
Most of these gurus parade their international disciples in their ashrams in India. Acceptance by 'the white man' automatically translates to swelling number of devotees back home, and thus starts a vicious cycle.
Desmond, there is indeed a pattern in which an export guru (someone who would have no crediblity if he or she stayed in India, but who is easily accepted as a guru by Westerners who lack the background to tell a wanna be from a genuine teacher)...
getting Western disciples actually increases the prestige for a guru when he or she returns to India!
Its almost a compensatory revenge for India having been conquered by the Brits. If an Indian can get a lot of Americans (and especially Brits) to bow and scrape and function as peons in his or her entourage, this is a huge, huge prestige booster when he or she returns to India.
Its like Roman generals parading in triumph with prisoners in chains behind their chariots. Except...in the case of the Roman triumph, the prisoners knew they were prisoners.
Aghehananda Bharati came up with a whimsical term called 'pizza effect'--something that has no prestige in its home country is re-imported from America and has a prestige it never had in its orginal form.
Quote:
I am writing a high school reference book on Hinduism, and in my research I came upon an interesting reference to pizza. “Surely, you’ve heard about ‘The Pizza Effect’” The devotees hadn’t, and I found myself explaining it to them.
Originally, pizza was looked down upon in Italy as the poor man’s food: it was just simple unleavened bread with a little tomato sauce for taste. Then, accompanying the early emigrants, it made its way to America, where it was garnished with cheese, olives, peppers, various meats, and so on, totally transforming the original into a kind of delicacy. Years later, when it made its triumphant return to the land of its origin, it became a highly respected dish on the menu of even the most eminent restaurants. The new product was eagerly accepted and even given pride of place in Italian cuisine.
Similarly, when Hinduism was first conceived in the West as a monolithic religious tradition, around the turn of the twentieth century, the tradition that returned to India caught everyone’s attention, and Hinduism as a single religion caught on. Originally, in India, of course, no separate religion called Hinduism ever existed. Rather, there are numerous religious traditions, from Vaishnavism, which is the eternal function of the soul – the religion of transcendental principles brought West by Srila Prabhupada – to Shaivism, Shaktism, and a host of other sectarian religions. When invading British Imperialists lumped all these religions together for convenience, many indigenous “Hindus” embraced the idea as if it were something that existed there all along.
Lack of confidence in one’s own culture, combined with the blind acceptance of all things new and foreign, often results in a phenomenon that social scientists call the “Pizza Effect,” a phrase that was coined in as late as 1970 by an anthropologist named Agehananda Bharati.
(Then, referring to the Hare Krishna movement (it is a dualistic Bhakti movement with a philosophy quite different form the one verbally stated by Guru Jaggi. But the strategy he is using seems similar to the one attributed to Prabhubpada: Get prestige points for one's venture by taking it outside India, getting Western converts, then score prestige points in India!)
Quote:
. Actually, Srila Prabhupada was trying to cast a Pizza Effect of his own. He had hoped that by successfully establishing Krishna consciousness in the western countries – a region whose activities are emulated in India even to this day – he might reinvigorate the Vaishnava tradition in his own country. I ran to get a copy of Srila Prabhupada’s biography, written by his early disciple, Satsvarupa Dasa Goswami, to clarify my point:
Prabhupada’s idea was that when Indians saw young Western people adopting the principles of Krsna Consciousness, the faith of the Indians in their own culture would increase.(boldface by Corboy)
Prabhupada explained to his disciples how formerly, during the time of Maharaja Yudhisthira*, India had been a Krishna conscious state. For the last thousand years, however, India had been under foreign subjugation, first under the Moguls and then under the British. As a result, the intelligentsia and, to a lesser degree, the masses of India had lost respect for their own culture. They were now pursuing the materialistic goals of the West, and they saw this as more productive and more practical than religion, which was only sentimental. . . . Westerners living as renounced Vaisnavas could, as Prabhupada was well aware, turn the heads and hearts of the Indians and help them regain faith in their own lost culture.
Prabhupada’s “Pizza effect” strategy has proven anything but half-baked.
The initial success of Krishna consciousness in the West has now been surpassed by its ever-widening acceptance in India, the land of its birth. The Vrindavan and Mayapura temples – central to the Krishna conscious tradition — continue to flourish, and projects in places as diverse as Mumbai and Chennai are increasing day-by-day. The major temple complex in New Delhi is magnificent in numerous ways.
[209.85.173.132]
and
Quote
Quote:
Stuart Sarbacker Monday, April 24th, 5:00pm - 7:00pm , University Hall Room 101
"A Slice of Life: Yoga and the 'Pizza Effect'"
The Anthropologist and Religionist Agehananda Bharati coined the expression "the pizza effect" to express a conception of the cyclical process of cultural flow, especially with respect to the traditions of India and their Euro-American counterparts. This concept is particularly well illustrated by the transformations and permutations of the theory and practice of yoga that emerge in the cultural exchange between India , Europe , and the United States in the 20th and 21st centuries.
[209.85.173.132]
(Corboy wrote) I adore Indian food, snap my fingers to Bollywood music, dress in Indian clothes whenever I can. I avidly read Indian history, go online to read Times of India.
But I dont like the sexism, the oppression that is rationalized in the name of religion, or of a 'difference in culture' which we are forbidden to question or judge.
And I dislike the worship of unquestioned despotic power rationalized as religion, of secrective leader misbehavior rationalized as 'tantra'.
And I dont like it when human beings are used as objects, stage props, in some export guru or lama's theatre of oppression.
I especially do not like it when citizens of participatory democracies get their heads stuffed full of garbage that turns them into regressed feudals in relation to an entourage coddled guru or rinpoche, while preserving their their modern income earning capabilities intact so as to enrich the bloated coffers of the guru or rinpoche.
We are forbidden to look appraisingly at these gurus--critical thinking is an impediment to salvation.
But...these same gurus and rinpoches look appraisingly at us, while forbidding us to look appraisingly at them.
They are just like baniyas/merchants in the marketplace testing to see how much cash we have in our accounts and how much BS we are willing to believe from them.
And as I indirectly subsidize export gurus because I am a secular tax payer and their
projects are spiritual tax exempt, I have the right, thanks to the laws and constitution of my country, to point this out.
Many gurus and rinpoches dont like democracy at all. They pay lipservice to it, because they are in exile and forced to pretend they appreciate it.
But most of them appreciate democracies for their tax exemption policies, not for how they liberated us from feudalism. That part they dont like.
They live as kings.
A personal suggestion--
In the long run, if one wants to practice Buddha dharma, it may be best to look for a center that is democratically run, where all members can vote, and where the money all stays inside your nation, and the books are periodically audited by an outside accountancy firm, and minutes of all meetings are available to be read by the community
My concern is that if money is sent out of the country to Tibet or India, it becomes nearly impossible to tell whether it is being used properly, or God forbid, used to support some political party whose agendas would be repugnant to most liberals who are attracted to the various forms of Hinduism or Buddism.
The exception might be reputable clinics or medical projects carefully supervised to ensure the money is spent on services, and does not disppear into the purses of corrupt dignitaries--or their greedy relatives.
Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 05/26/2009 12:19AM by corboy.
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