I found this thread on Sogyal rinpoche to be very interesting and helpful but very surprising. i just asssumed that any tibetan buddhist lama teacher with a title of rinpoche which means precious one and is venerated in tibetan buddhism and is supposed to be a reincarnated great being can do or act like he is supposedly acting.

How does one know the difference between a real and true and genuine rinpoche from one that does not deserve that title? there are so many rinpoches out there now in the united states and so many people just follow them think they are litereally Gods.

so i really appreciate these sharings but am confused. can i trust the Dalai Lama, can i trust anyone. it is very confusing now. Any one help clarify who you can and cannot trust in regards to buddhist teachers, namely rinpoches. for let us not forget that chogyam trungpa rinpoche is another famous one that has a lot of controversy around him. i would not know if i could trust him or not too.

so sorry. i forgot to say that i browsed through sogyal rinpoches book and bought one of his tapes, something on living and dying, about death, conscious dying. i found it very good and he sounded good on it. Now i knew nothing about him when i bought the tape but he sounded very good in it and found it right on. so i am having a hard time separating what i read from what i heard on the tape, all of that wisdom. and the Dalai lama himself, the most respected buddhist monk in the world seems to havea an association with sogyal and endorses him, so it is just confusing to me. i do respect what people wrote and it is probably true regarding sogyals lifestyle and negativities, but if one is not familar with this information and one just reads his book or hears him give a talk, he sounds so convincing and seems like a legtimate rinpcohe, monk. so any body know what i mean. Shimon

Hi Shimon,
In pre-Chinese Tibet it was widely accepted that one should be ultra cautious in one's committment to a spiritual master. In many cases one was advised to observe a possible guru for 12 years before making the profound, life-changing step of entrusting your whole being to another person. In turn, the lama was careful about who s/he took on as a student. Accepting responsibility for another person's total well-being is a profound, life-changing step. These days precautions of this nature have been swept aside. IMHO this change hinges on the interface between two dynamics -- the needs and aspirations of spiritually starved people in the developed world on one side -- and the needs and aspirations of a refugee community which has to deploy all its resources to survive in the modern world -- including the expertise and reputation of its spiritual mentors, on the other. It is beyond doubt that the Tibetan diaspora has become wealthy via the activities of the lamas propagating Tibetan Buddhism worldwide and raking in the $s, £s and Es from eager western neophytes in a hurry to plug into the power and compassion socket offered by the Tibetans. As this process unfolded a form of literalism emerged -- where the role of the lama/guru/rinpoche became conflated with *parent*. Increasingly newbie devotees parked their common sense at the shrine room door -- along with their shoes. In some instances, smart charlatans like Sogyal Lakar exploited this naivete, gullibility and psychological weakness to the max. Cynics like me became aware that rogues like Sogyal were more interested in Tibetan wallet massage than they were in deep contemplative experience. Sogyal's outfit --Rigpa -- has become a coercive cult run as a business mafia and designed to generate maximum cash flow.
Having said all this, there are some men and women of impeccable credentials and integrity around on the Tibetan Buddhist mandala. But -- caveat emptor -- never, ever take any alleged teacher at face value. Never be seduced by displays of siddhi -- spiritual power. Hang onto your discriminating wisdom like the precious gift that it is. Below are some TB orgs to steer clear of -- and some in my experience that are pretty much OK.

Avoid

Rigpa -- Sogyal Lakar aka Rinpcohe
Jetsunma Ahkon Lhamo -- aka Catharine Burroughs aka Alice Zeoli
The New Kadampa Tradition
Diamondway Buddhism -- Ole Nydhal
Traktung Rinpoche aka Stuart Kirkpatrick
Christopher Hansard

[...]

You will notice that there are very few Rinpoche titles here. Not all lamas are Tibetan and not all lamas are Rinpoches.
Hope this helps.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/20/2009 08:14PM by rrmoderator.

Hi Shimon,

it is not so easy to distinguish between geunine and fake teacher these days. Fake ones are good at playing things out. The best way would be to observe the behavior of teacher in more private times, than in public teachings. Also ask another students who share same master with the teacher.

[...]

For example blue dakini, seems to like Ngagpa Chogyam. But there is much controversy around Ngagpa Chogyam and I can tell you one thing: Ngagpa Chogyams lineage is completely invention of his own, there was no Aro lineage prior to Ngagpa Chogyam. If you ask old students of Chime Rigdzin Rinpoche (Chogyam's main teacher) like Martin Brood or Jomo Gudrun, they will all confirm that Ngagpa Chogyam is complete fake.

My advice would be to go with Tibetan teacher still rather then with Western one. The reason is that Tibetan teachers at least have some education in Dharma and they know the language of scriptures. There are also great and genuine Western teachers, who are just like old Tibetan siddhas, but they are very low profile and you will not find them by searching online - unlike Tibetan teachers.

[...]

If you choose a Tibetan teacher it is more safe to go with someone who is in a more official lineage of tradition. [...] If teacher does not bring you any spiritual benefit, no matter how great he or she might be, better leave that teacher and find another one. It might not be a teachers mistake, but even if it is, it is you who came to follow, so be wise when choosing. Best of the luck to you

Wangdrag.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/21/2009 01:20AM by rrmoderator.

Hi Wangdrag,
I'm not sure how you know that I respect Nkagpa Chogyam -- are you one of the moderators of this site? Just to set the record straight -- I respect people for their personal qualities -- not because others denigrate them and their traditions. Martin BOORD and Gudrun might well put Chogyam down -- but where are their credentials? They obtained them from the same source. They cannot in any way be described as superior in knowledge, insight and contemplative experience. I know all of them from the late 1970s. We were all in the same stream for several years. Also -- I differ in my advice. Latterly I have more confidence in the integrity of non-Tibetan TB teachers than I do in ethnic Tibetans. For reasons which I have explained in a previous post awaiting moderation.

RR Moderator -- please would you explain why you deleted my list of Tibetan Buddhist organisations which I suggested might be worth consideration? It makes the last sentence of my post confusing -- and I would like to know why you consider the list inappropriate.

Blue Dakini:

See [forum.culteducation.com]

"The purpose of this message board is not to promote a specific religious and/or political viewpoint. Don't use it to preach or proselytize."

You agreed to these rules before posting here.

The purpose of the board is to discuss groups that are potentially unsafe and/or controversial, not to promote groups for consideration, which is inappropriate.

RR Moderator. Shimon was asking for advice so I gave him some. Strictly according to the rules I do not argue.

RR Moderator -- on reflection -- Wangdrag offered similar advice. How come his was accepted and not mine?

Blue Dakini:

I did not catch that.

Wangdrag should not be giving advice about what to look into or consider either.

No one should be promoting groups or leaders here in any way, shape or form.

Again, it's against the agreed upon rules.

See [www.culteducation.com]

These are some basic "warning signs" to consider before entering or becoming involved with any group or leader.