Re: Sogyal Lakar aka Rinpoche
Posted by:
grainne uaile
()
Date: December 09, 2011 09:12PM
Quote
Blue Dakini
Firstly, about June Campbell. I have known June since the early 1980s, when she lived at Samye Ling in Scotland and had a Tibetan personality -- name, dress and language. She was then and still is a very intense person. Fast forward to the mid 90s when her book Travelers in Space was published. June had morphed into an atheist, feminist lesbian university tutor. She rejected all forms of spirituality inc Buddhism and was scornful of people (inc me) who were still practitioners -- with the same degree of intensity. From being one of the late, much venerated Kalu Rinpoche's closest associates, travelling with him, translating for him and his secret sex partner, she had become one of the most hard-nosed detractors of Tibetan Buddhism I have ever encountered. OK -- you can say that this happened as a result of her experience. What I say is that what she became influenced her hindsight on her experiences with Kalu. I interviewed June twice and I went to one of her public talks. My impression remains that she misjudged Kalu's intentions and wrote about them from the perspective of left wing feminism. I think Kalu invited June to be his lover because he thought it was what she wanted. He appreciated her a lot. He offered her a house and for all her needs to be met after she stopped travelling with him. I hold the late Kalu in the highest possible regard -- but I do not deify gurus. I acknowledge their spiritual accomplishments, but they are still human and as such, imperfect. I think Kalu is off-topic on this thread so can we move on from him now -- or transfer to the thread about child abuse in monasteries -- a hot topic in view of the young Kalu's recent confessional video. There is no comparison between Sogyal and the late Kalu -- the former is a joke guru and a psychopathic sex addict. The latter was a great guru and an old man trying to hang onto his youthful vigor -- Tibetan style.
Re activism. I share your perspective Misstyk, but have to add a note of caution. I do not think that legal action is a viable proposition at the present time. The woman identified as Janine in Behind the Thangkas is keen to launch legal action, but knows she cannot do it until another contemporaneous member of Sogyal's harem breaks ranks and is willing to corroborate her testimony. As of now this has not happened, so its a case of Janine's word against Sogyal's -- with support for him from a squadron of zombies. But the sands are shifting and I sense that Rigpa knows they are on very thin ice.
You seem to be denying what she has written. This reminds me so much of how when a woman speaks out, in Hinduism or even in Buddhism, of abuse, they are immediately said to be "emotionally unstable" and therefore, "no one should listen to them." What a disservice to women. How can you call her an atheist when Buddhism is a religion without a God? So what if she is a feminist? So what if she is a lesbian? Does this make what she said invalid? Your comments are very bigoted. I reject all forms of religion myself after what I have been through and seen. So what? Smart woman June Campbell and VERY BRAVE!!! I can understand her being scornful of those who continue to practice Tibetan Buddhism. She misjudged Kalu. Give me a break! It was what he thought she wanted? Come on! I think your interview with her was biased from the beginning.
Re: Sogyal Lakar aka Rinpoche
Posted by:
Blue Dakini
()
Date: December 09, 2011 09:29PM
Grainne-- you are interpreting what I wrote through the lens of your own prejudice. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. I presented an alternative perspective on June Campbell -- one that is widely shared within the TB community. And atheist? I remind you about the rangtong-shentong polarisation -- and a vast pantheon of DEITIES that Tibetans view as literal entities, rather than simply Jungian-style archetypes.
Re: Sogyal Lakar aka Rinpoche
Posted by:
rrmoderator
()
Date: December 09, 2011 09:52PM
Please avoid personal attacks, which are against the rules.
Re: Sogyal Lakar aka Rinpoche
Posted by:
Stoic
()
Date: December 09, 2011 10:11PM
Grainne, maybe its possible to hone your discerning eye for twelve years before looking for a teacher. Maybe then you might realise that there are no perfect people available and that you have to take the best that you can find that suits your particular needs.
This isnt quite what might have been dangled as the enticing carrot, just out of your grasp--but it is more realistic.
If you spent twelve years watching one guy before committing yourself, you'd be bored to distraction long before you got your answer--which might not be a bad thing.
It ain't, in the end, about the teacher at all.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/09/2011 10:18PM by Stoic.
This isnt quite what might have been dangled as the enticing carrot, just out of your grasp--but it is more realistic.
If you spent twelve years watching one guy before committing yourself, you'd be bored to distraction long before you got your answer--which might not be a bad thing.
It ain't, in the end, about the teacher at all.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/09/2011 10:18PM by Stoic.
Re: Sogyal Lakar aka Rinpoche
Posted by:
Blue Dakini
()
Date: December 10, 2011 12:01AM
Sorry Rick. She seemed to be having a go at me so I probably over-reacted.
Re: Sogyal Lakar aka Rinpoche
Posted by:
corboy
()
Date: December 10, 2011 12:38AM
One way I deal with it is to go only to reputable Buddhist centers in which all money stays in the US and the board of directors is democratically elected by members.
But, this keep money in your home country does exclude a lot of worthy projects.
Another problem is that if one spends 12 years examining prospective teachers, one has to do this by staying in the sanghas where they teach.
By that time, you may become socialized that you'll have lost objectivity and fall into traps.
And unless one learns the relevant languages, and is male, there will still be much you are excluded from.
I strongly urge readers to get and read Nikolai Grozni's memoir, Turtle Feet: The Making and Unmaking of a Buddhist Monk.
Grozni learned Tibetan, lived over two and a half years in Dharamsala, was tutored in logic, attended debate classes at the Institute of Buddhist Dialectics, took monastic ordination, and then went to another Buddhist university further south.
There were things he learned that most tourists and students just dont see and he was very sorry to see this was the case. He didnt set out to write an expose.
His most damning revelation (at least for me) are his descriptions of teh debate process, how it is based on tautologies, false premises and .... his discovery that a person does not even have to be particularly intelligent to learn it.
Its all done by ritual and rules.
Grozni grew up in Communist Bulgaria and hated it.
So he cannot be dismissed as someone who is shilling for China. He isnt.
His beef is with authoritarian abuses of power and greed to maintain hierarchy.
But, this keep money in your home country does exclude a lot of worthy projects.
Another problem is that if one spends 12 years examining prospective teachers, one has to do this by staying in the sanghas where they teach.
By that time, you may become socialized that you'll have lost objectivity and fall into traps.
And unless one learns the relevant languages, and is male, there will still be much you are excluded from.
I strongly urge readers to get and read Nikolai Grozni's memoir, Turtle Feet: The Making and Unmaking of a Buddhist Monk.
Grozni learned Tibetan, lived over two and a half years in Dharamsala, was tutored in logic, attended debate classes at the Institute of Buddhist Dialectics, took monastic ordination, and then went to another Buddhist university further south.
There were things he learned that most tourists and students just dont see and he was very sorry to see this was the case. He didnt set out to write an expose.
His most damning revelation (at least for me) are his descriptions of teh debate process, how it is based on tautologies, false premises and .... his discovery that a person does not even have to be particularly intelligent to learn it.
Its all done by ritual and rules.
Grozni grew up in Communist Bulgaria and hated it.
So he cannot be dismissed as someone who is shilling for China. He isnt.
His beef is with authoritarian abuses of power and greed to maintain hierarchy.
Re: Sogyal Lakar aka Rinpoche
Posted by:
pS1bY8pG2l
()
Date: December 10, 2011 02:21AM
Quote:
"You seem to be denying what she has written. This reminds me so much of how when a woman speaks out, in Hinduism or even in Buddhism, of abuse, they are immediately said to be "emotionally unstable" and therefore, "no one should listen to them." What a disservice to women. How can you call her an atheist when Buddhism is a religion without a God? So what if she is a feminist? So what if she is a lesbian? Does this make what she said invalid? Your comments are very bigoted. I reject all forms of religion myself after what I have been through and seen. So what? Smart woman June Campbell and VERY BRAVE!!! I can understand her being scornful of those who continue to practice Tibetan Buddhism. She misjudged Kalu. Give me a break! It was what he thought she wanted? Come on! I think your interview with her was biased from the beginning."
Very well said, Grainne Uaile! Those are my own thoughts, so I do not have to repeat it.
And, Blue Dakini:
"I presented an alternative perspective on June Campbell -- one that is widely shared within the TB community." Who is interested in? We are not that community here.
"You seem to be denying what she has written. This reminds me so much of how when a woman speaks out, in Hinduism or even in Buddhism, of abuse, they are immediately said to be "emotionally unstable" and therefore, "no one should listen to them." What a disservice to women. How can you call her an atheist when Buddhism is a religion without a God? So what if she is a feminist? So what if she is a lesbian? Does this make what she said invalid? Your comments are very bigoted. I reject all forms of religion myself after what I have been through and seen. So what? Smart woman June Campbell and VERY BRAVE!!! I can understand her being scornful of those who continue to practice Tibetan Buddhism. She misjudged Kalu. Give me a break! It was what he thought she wanted? Come on! I think your interview with her was biased from the beginning."
Very well said, Grainne Uaile! Those are my own thoughts, so I do not have to repeat it.
And, Blue Dakini:
"I presented an alternative perspective on June Campbell -- one that is widely shared within the TB community." Who is interested in? We are not that community here.
Re: Sogyal Lakar aka Rinpoche
Posted by:
grainne uaile
()
Date: December 10, 2011 03:53AM
Sorry for the personal attack BlueDakini.
I am just totally fed up with lamas and gurus, and you can't tell whether they are going to try to get you into a sexual encounter until after you have been a Buddhist for a very long time. They actually do what sexual predators do, they groom you. In the case of lamas they tell you that sex is what is needed to reach enlightenment, but of course first they get your trust and give you a lot of attention. Kind of sucks!!!
In the tantras they use 12 to 13 year old girls, and if they don't comply they give them alcohol, and if that doesn't work, rape. Tibetan Buddhism truly is the cesspool or Buddhism as one tulku has stated. And it certainly is not what Buddha taught, not matter what the Tibetan Buddhists tell you.
I am just totally fed up with lamas and gurus, and you can't tell whether they are going to try to get you into a sexual encounter until after you have been a Buddhist for a very long time. They actually do what sexual predators do, they groom you. In the case of lamas they tell you that sex is what is needed to reach enlightenment, but of course first they get your trust and give you a lot of attention. Kind of sucks!!!
In the tantras they use 12 to 13 year old girls, and if they don't comply they give them alcohol, and if that doesn't work, rape. Tibetan Buddhism truly is the cesspool or Buddhism as one tulku has stated. And it certainly is not what Buddha taught, not matter what the Tibetan Buddhists tell you.
Re: Sogyal Lakar aka Rinpoche
Posted by:
Stoic
()
Date: December 10, 2011 05:39AM
'I am just totally fed up with lamas and gurus,'
So why not stay well away from lamas and gurus and hone your discerning eye--which will always come in handy---on ordinary people?
So why not stay well away from lamas and gurus and hone your discerning eye--which will always come in handy---on ordinary people?
Re: Sogyal Lakar aka Rinpoche
Posted by:
grainne uaile
()
Date: December 10, 2011 06:01AM
I have nothing to do with lamas and gurus, Stoic. The problem is they are ordinary people, not enlightened at all.
Blue Dakini said: "My impression remains that she misjudged Kalu's intentions and wrote about them from the perspective of left wing feminism. I think Kalu invited June to be his lover because he thought it was what she wanted. He appreciated her a lot. He offered her a house and for all her needs to be met after she stopped travelling with him." Basically what you are describing is a prostitute or a kept woman. Nothing really real. It doesn't appear to me that you think that this is wrong since it feels like you are standing up for him? Do you think she wanted his nephew too? I feel your impression is wrong of her, oh, so wrong!
Blue Dakini said: "My impression remains that she misjudged Kalu's intentions and wrote about them from the perspective of left wing feminism. I think Kalu invited June to be his lover because he thought it was what she wanted. He appreciated her a lot. He offered her a house and for all her needs to be met after she stopped travelling with him." Basically what you are describing is a prostitute or a kept woman. Nothing really real. It doesn't appear to me that you think that this is wrong since it feels like you are standing up for him? Do you think she wanted his nephew too? I feel your impression is wrong of her, oh, so wrong!
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