Re: Sogyal Lakar aka Rinpoche
Posted by:
Misstyk
()
Date: December 08, 2011 03:16AM
Corboy, could you explain why you posted about June Campbell's experience? How does that tie in with Sogyal? The circumstances under which Kalu Rinpoche took "consorts" (he was a senior lama, if not the head or abbot of a monastery, plus I think he was outwardly celibate, I'm not 100% sure about that), which was in a highly secretive way, and those in which Sogyal exploits women, have very little in common, other than sleazy attempted enticements on the pretext of tantric sex. But since you have posted that material, I'll only comment to correct the record a little.
"Personal prestige" was not the only reason Campbell put up with her situation. IIRC, she refused Kalu Rinpoche's request to be his consort at first, being shocked by it. Typically what follows a refusal is anger and attempts at intimidation by the lama. In any case, once she acquiesced, Kalu took another "consort", a Tibetan teenager, who in less than a year, disappeared and was said by Kalu Rinpoche to have died of a heart attack. Upon hearing this news, Campbell became frightened. She was afraid that if she tried to leave Kalu Rinpoche, harm might befall her. She found herself in an isolated situation in a foreign culture in an institution in which Kalu had complete control. He had shown himself capable of murder. The message she got was, "keep our activities secret, or else".
I believe it would be misrepresenting Campbell to selectively quote a statement that she made her decision out of a desire for prestige, as if her decision were arrived at by a rational process. She was coerced into the situation, and then terrorized into staying, that's how I read it. I realize you were posting an article, not the result of your own reading of Campbell, but it's important for readers to have a more complete and accurate picture.
"Personal prestige" was not the only reason Campbell put up with her situation. IIRC, she refused Kalu Rinpoche's request to be his consort at first, being shocked by it. Typically what follows a refusal is anger and attempts at intimidation by the lama. In any case, once she acquiesced, Kalu took another "consort", a Tibetan teenager, who in less than a year, disappeared and was said by Kalu Rinpoche to have died of a heart attack. Upon hearing this news, Campbell became frightened. She was afraid that if she tried to leave Kalu Rinpoche, harm might befall her. She found herself in an isolated situation in a foreign culture in an institution in which Kalu had complete control. He had shown himself capable of murder. The message she got was, "keep our activities secret, or else".
I believe it would be misrepresenting Campbell to selectively quote a statement that she made her decision out of a desire for prestige, as if her decision were arrived at by a rational process. She was coerced into the situation, and then terrorized into staying, that's how I read it. I realize you were posting an article, not the result of your own reading of Campbell, but it's important for readers to have a more complete and accurate picture.
Re: Sogyal Lakar aka Rinpoche
Posted by:
Misstyk
()
Date: December 08, 2011 03:32AM
Hear, hear! I would only add that in order for women to be able to overcome the formidable emotional impediments to filing charges and being willing to go to court, they need support! Those of us who are concerned with this issue, and other women who have been victim to any lama, and to Sogyal in particular, NEED TO ORGANIZE, so that we can support victims in getting effective trauma therapy, in filing charges, and in taking the case/s to court. If victims know they're not alone and that there's a support network they can call upon, there will be more likelihood that cases will be reported to authorities. People who have been traumatized often are not able to think straight and make sense of their experience. They can end up wandering around, shell-shocked, for weeks and months. We need an organized group that can do out-reach and triage for victims of lama abuse, and if possible, network to find others who can offer corroborating statements in court.Quote
Blue Dakini
I call on ALL women who have suffered rape, sexual abuse, violence and coercion in a spritual/religious environment to get a grip on their common sense and go to the police or other legal authorities. Testify -- protest and be willing to stand up in court. Especially re Sogyal Lakar who is one of the most persistent offenders.
Re: Sogyal Lakar aka Rinpoche
Posted by:
Stoic
()
Date: December 08, 2011 04:33AM
I'm not answering on behalf of Corboy, who I'm sure can speak up adequately.
However, I would take any conclusions that you might reach about Campbell with a pinch of salt. Not that I doubt her account at all--she was undoubtedly reporting the events as she saw them, thats what a memoir does, so the events had her spin on them.
The questions I would ask myself when trying to unentangle this are:
Is there any corroboration for the teenage girl dying due to foul play--is she dead at all--how enmeshed was Campbell at the time and how rationally was she thinking?
I make this point as I believe Campbell was being manipulated by those around her and and was operating from a fearful mind. Manipulation works on irrational fears and there doesn't need to be a dead body and a bloody hand in reality to plant the idea of an all-powerful murdering tyrant in a vulnerable mind.
Of course murders etc do happen and power-hungry types throughout the ages have murdered to further their aims in reality too --so the fear works its magic whether or not there is evidence of foul play.
I would not concentrate too much on what Campbells state of mind was during this incident--she was being coerced to stay and to stay loyal and silent, however it was achieved. She is past it now and I'm sure not that worried about the story being out there, since she published it herself.
However, I would take any conclusions that you might reach about Campbell with a pinch of salt. Not that I doubt her account at all--she was undoubtedly reporting the events as she saw them, thats what a memoir does, so the events had her spin on them.
The questions I would ask myself when trying to unentangle this are:
Is there any corroboration for the teenage girl dying due to foul play--is she dead at all--how enmeshed was Campbell at the time and how rationally was she thinking?
I make this point as I believe Campbell was being manipulated by those around her and and was operating from a fearful mind. Manipulation works on irrational fears and there doesn't need to be a dead body and a bloody hand in reality to plant the idea of an all-powerful murdering tyrant in a vulnerable mind.
Of course murders etc do happen and power-hungry types throughout the ages have murdered to further their aims in reality too --so the fear works its magic whether or not there is evidence of foul play.
I would not concentrate too much on what Campbells state of mind was during this incident--she was being coerced to stay and to stay loyal and silent, however it was achieved. She is past it now and I'm sure not that worried about the story being out there, since she published it herself.
Re: Sogyal Lakar aka Rinpoche
Posted by:
Stoic
()
Date: December 08, 2011 04:42AM
Re the taking of these cases to court, in the UK only about 6% of reported rapes ever get as far as court, despite strenuous efforts to make the process easier on the reportees (I believe the figure is similar in the US also)
There are complex reasons for this low figure which it is not pertinent to go into here. I don't think this figure will increase radically anytime soon, however much we might want it to.
I don't want to dampen your passion in any way but this area of litigation is a minefield and "softly, softly catchee monkey"
There are complex reasons for this low figure which it is not pertinent to go into here. I don't think this figure will increase radically anytime soon, however much we might want it to.
I don't want to dampen your passion in any way but this area of litigation is a minefield and "softly, softly catchee monkey"
Re: Sogyal Lakar aka Rinpoche
Posted by:
Misstyk
()
Date: December 08, 2011 08:53AM
Good points, Stoic. In her book, Campbell says the parents of the girl were told she died of a heart attack. You're implying she may have disappeared simply because Kalu set her away, then created a fiction around June that the teen had died, in order to scare her? It's possible, but we'll never know without getting more info from June. I don't recall any other details about it, and don't have my copy of the book handy.
Yes, the reasons why victims don't step forward and file charges are complex. I'd like to think that all this internet chatter about Sogyal, and about the larger issue of clerical abuse in Buddhism, is more than just letting off steam and entertaining ourselves. I'd like to think there's a chance that something can be done to bring about positive change. Maybe I'm deluding myself. *shrug* I'm an activist by nature, I can't help it.
Yes, the reasons why victims don't step forward and file charges are complex. I'd like to think that all this internet chatter about Sogyal, and about the larger issue of clerical abuse in Buddhism, is more than just letting off steam and entertaining ourselves. I'd like to think there's a chance that something can be done to bring about positive change. Maybe I'm deluding myself. *shrug* I'm an activist by nature, I can't help it.
Re: Sogyal Lakar aka Rinpoche
Posted by:
Blue Dakini
()
Date: December 08, 2011 05:16PM
Firstly, about June Campbell. I have known June since the early 1980s, when she lived at Samye Ling in Scotland and had a Tibetan personality -- name, dress and language. She was then and still is a very intense person. Fast forward to the mid 90s when her book Travelers in Space was published. June had morphed into an atheist, feminist lesbian university tutor. She rejected all forms of spirituality inc Buddhism and was scornful of people (inc me) who were still practitioners -- with the same degree of intensity. From being one of the late, much venerated Kalu Rinpoche's closest associates, travelling with him, translating for him and his secret sex partner, she had become one of the most hard-nosed detractors of Tibetan Buddhism I have ever encountered. OK -- you can say that this happened as a result of her experience. What I say is that what she became influenced her hindsight on her experiences with Kalu. I interviewed June twice and I went to one of her public talks. My impression remains that she misjudged Kalu's intentions and wrote about them from the perspective of left wing feminism. I think Kalu invited June to be his lover because he thought it was what she wanted. He appreciated her a lot. He offered her a house and for all her needs to be met after she stopped travelling with him. I hold the late Kalu in the highest possible regard -- but I do not deify gurus. I acknowledge their spiritual accomplishments, but they are still human and as such, imperfect. I think Kalu is off-topic on this thread so can we move on from him now -- or transfer to the thread about child abuse in monasteries -- a hot topic in view of the young Kalu's recent confessional video. There is no comparison between Sogyal and the late Kalu -- the former is a joke guru and a psychopathic sex addict. The latter was a great guru and an old man trying to hang onto his youthful vigor -- Tibetan style.
Re activism. I share your perspective Misstyk, but have to add a note of caution. I do not think that legal action is a viable proposition at the present time. The woman identified as Janine in Behind the Thangkas is keen to launch legal action, but knows she cannot do it until another contemporaneous member of Sogyal's harem breaks ranks and is willing to corroborate her testimony. As of now this has not happened, so its a case of Janine's word against Sogyal's -- with support for him from a squadron of zombies. But the sands are shifting and I sense that Rigpa knows they are on very thin ice.
Re activism. I share your perspective Misstyk, but have to add a note of caution. I do not think that legal action is a viable proposition at the present time. The woman identified as Janine in Behind the Thangkas is keen to launch legal action, but knows she cannot do it until another contemporaneous member of Sogyal's harem breaks ranks and is willing to corroborate her testimony. As of now this has not happened, so its a case of Janine's word against Sogyal's -- with support for him from a squadron of zombies. But the sands are shifting and I sense that Rigpa knows they are on very thin ice.
Re: Sogyal Lakar aka Rinpoche
Posted by:
Stoic
()
Date: December 08, 2011 09:34PM
I think more to the point, Misstyk, is that I, as a reader, can never know what June Campbell's (or Kalu's come to that) motivations truly were in the incidents that she recounts. (I've yet to read her book, BTW) Only she can ever pin that one down with any satisfaction--if it is ever to be pinned down.
I tend to operate in generalities from what I have observed myself to be true--and then chuck in a handful of salt as I have my own full set of biases too.
Its certainly a tough life--but then, consider the alternative.
I tend to operate in generalities from what I have observed myself to be true--and then chuck in a handful of salt as I have my own full set of biases too.
Its certainly a tough life--but then, consider the alternative.
Re: Sogyal Lakar aka Rinpoche
Posted by:
Misstyk
()
Date: December 09, 2011 05:27AM
I'm well aware that building a foundation that would support and facilitate women bringing legal cases would take time. My thinking is medium- to long-term. It looks like there's already a small support effort in the UK, if only you and a few others. That ideally would be strengthened, and expanded upon to eventually reach women in all Western countries. I see something along the lines of the early feminist movement, that raised awareness of the need to file charges for sexual assault and workplace grievances for harassment. That movement changed the way law enforcement and the workplace dealt with women's grievances, it demanded they be taken seriously, and achieved positive change to a significant degree. Something similar is needed in Buddhism, and not only in Tibetan Buddhism, but in Zen as well. Emotional, logistical and legal support are needed, and networking so that people like "Janine" could find others willing to testify. And I don't mean to exclude men from this, either. There have been male victims of abuse by female teachers.Quote
Blue Dakini
I share your perspective Misstyk, but have to add a note of caution. I do not think that legal action is a viable proposition at the present time. The woman identified as Janine in Behind the Thangkas is keen to launch legal action, but knows she cannot do it until another contemporaneous member of Sogyal's harem breaks ranks and is willing to corroborate her testimony. As of now this has not happened, so its a case of Janine's word against Sogyal's -- with support for him from a squadron of zombies. But the sands are shifting and I sense that Rigpa knows they are on very thin ice.
Re: Sogyal Lakar aka Rinpoche
Posted by:
grainne uaile
()
Date: December 09, 2011 08:51PM
Quote
Blue Dakini
Hi Shimon,
In pre-Chinese Tibet it was widely accepted that one should be ultra cautious in one's committment to a spiritual master. In many cases one was advised to observe a possible guru for 12 years before making the profound, life-changing step of entrusting your whole being to another person. In turn, the lama was careful about who s/he took on as a student. Accepting responsibility for another person's total well-being is a profound, life-changing step. These days precautions of this nature have been swept aside. IMHO this change hinges on the interface between two dynamics -- the needs and aspirations of spiritually starved people in the developed world on one side -- and the needs and aspirations of a refugee community which has to deploy all its resources to survive in the modern world -- including the expertise and reputation of its spiritual mentors, on the other. It is beyond doubt that the Tibetan diaspora has become wealthy via the activities of the lamas propagating Tibetan Buddhism worldwide and raking in the $s, £s and Es from eager western neophytes in a hurry to plug into the power and compassion socket offered by the Tibetans. As this process unfolded a form of literalism emerged -- where the role of the lama/guru/rinpoche became conflated with *parent*. Increasingly newbie devotees parked their common sense at the shrine room door -- along with their shoes. In some instances, smart charlatans like Sogyal Lakar exploited this naivete, gullibility and psychological weakness to the max. Cynics like me became aware that rogues like Sogyal were more interested in Tibetan wallet massage than they were in deep contemplative experience. Sogyal's outfit --Rigpa -- has become a coercive cult run as a business mafia and designed to generate maximum cash flow.
Having said all this, there are some men and women of impeccable credentials and integrity around on the Tibetan Buddhist mandala. But -- caveat emptor -- never, ever take any alleged teacher at face value. Never be seduced by displays of siddhi -- spiritual power. Hang onto your discriminating wisdom like the precious gift that it is. Below are some TB orgs to steer clear of -- and some in my experience that are pretty much OK.
Avoid
Rigpa -- Sogyal Lakar aka Rinpcohe
Jetsunma Ahkon Lhamo -- aka Catharine Burroughs aka Alice Zeoli
The New Kadampa Tradition
Diamondway Buddhism -- Ole Nydhal
Traktung Rinpoche aka Stuart Kirkpatrick
Christopher Hansard
[...]
You will notice that there are very few Rinpoche titles here. Not all lamas are Tibetan and not all lamas are Rinpoches.
Hope this helps.
!2 years. Not possible, but more than that, you can't really get to know a lama until you have been his student. All gurus and lamas keep their dirty secrets away from most disciples. To find one that is honest is almost impossible, and I would like to leave the word "almost" out of this.
If anyone studies the tantras, they would see that sex is part of the bargain, but then no all disciples get to partake in the sexual act, which includes meditation along with sex. This is open only to a few in most cases. And the tantras and lamas claim that you have to have sex in order to become enlightened, which means mixing it with meditation as I have explained.
Tibetan Buddhists also turn the precepts upside down. Where Buddha taught morals, Tibetan Buddhists teach to do the opposite. This too is in the tantras, and I have had Tibetan Buddhists, and my own teacher lie to me so very easily.
Your list is good though, but I would suggest that if people desire to learn Buddhism, go to Theravada or Zen, but still, be careful because some teachers are rogues, but at least it is not ALL. Better yet, stay away from all organizations, teachers, etc. It is all within anyway.
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