Right, this is exactly my point, and my response to your earlier question of how it is possible to avoid this.Quote
BackAtHome
Right, that's why we need a lot of grains of truth to get the whole story. That's why I'm asking for real support here, not for answers trying to obscure the facts.
It is not any reasonable to deny the fact, that some people are able to control the mind states of some other people. There are many different techniques for that like
- a boss overpowering an employee who is financially depending on his job
- peer pressure (extreme example: third reich in germany)
- regular education of children from their earliest years, indoctrination, propaganda, censorship
- hypnosis and so on
People can be responsible for their own mind states if they have the knowledge that they might be manipulated and the independence and ability to withdraw themselves from that.
The point for me is that when Buddhism is practiced correctly, the opposite should happen - this is what is called "liberation".Quote
BackAtHome
What is important is the fact that people have these experiences in relation to buddhist teachers. The parallels in the reports of people who experience themselves as victims of mystical or tantrical manipulation are obvious. I can not believe, they all are just individually, self-created illusions of a confused or weak mind. Please read some of those reports and seriously rethink your position.
So again (not interested in discussing the question of responsibility here): Are there other members who like to share their experience or knowledge about people's minds being influenced by buddhist teachers or lamas, like some messages in this thread suggested regarding Mr. Nydahl and DW? Is it maybe a part of the teachings for buddhist teachers or lamas?
Quote
karam-mudra
Quote from this blog:
"You know the story about the mahasiddha Ghantapa? People judged him based on their very limited worldly perception of him and his courtesan, when in fact they turned out to be emanations of Heruka and Vajrayogini. Perhaps this is a universal lesson: We don’t know as much as we think, and appearances can be deceptive."
In my eyes you did not grasp the point, you seem to deny the facts of Vayrayana´s Guru-precepts by assigning them only to Nydahl´s cult and taking away the dignity of my and others analyses in that way. And even though I see your posts here as important and lucid the model of your argumentation now is easy to read.
I do not want to gamble to much about Nydahl´s motivation here but I am convinced he is still deeply convinced of his doing as well doing. Only because I went out of his system I turned it into opposite. That was my decision. So we have the result you spoke about. I could have exist as a secret space dakini for the rest of my life, living consequently in a connection with Nydahl and in the certainy of beeing worshiped by him and also by Karmapa. I did´nt due to seeing that kind of worship as an hidden system of conquest female energies and a deep mysoginistic system at all.
So you are wrong when you "believe that your failure to realise this is part of the reason you have had difficulty in taking back control for yourself."
Aside from the fact that you speak about something you never experinced. The "quality" of the Bardo-state does not depend on any knowledge or insight, it depends only on individual and collective uncounsciousness which leads your Ego, I, counsciousnes or how ever you want to mention it. This phenomenon is only to balance, not to control. This is a process of eternity, like C.G.Jung said.
Do I understand this correctly: Are you confirming that a person can achieve the ability to intentionally manipulate the energy centres of another person in a very fundamental and irreversible way with this other person:Quote
"... what Nydahl did to you was against your wishes, ... It may well be that Nydahl opening your energy centres ... he believed he was doing it 'for the best', however the result proves that this was not the case"
May this be understood as a confirmation, that a person can achieve the ability to intentionally empower another person? What would be the result of such an empowerment? Would that be an increase in body strength, or an instantaneous increase in knowledge, or an instantaneous shift in the ways how one thinks or what values one has or something like that? For you these questions must be very childish, but the western culture does basically have no experience with such things. Could you please clarify what is the meaning of "empowerment"?Quote
"... any empowerment is a self-empowerment, even when it appears that it is being given by someone else ..."
Does this mean, that if a buddhist teacher, like Mr. Nydahl, would intentionally manipulate the energy centres of another person in a way like the one described above, he would use a practice which may not be used by a buddhist teacher? Would that mean, that by gaining the trust of other people with claims to be a buddhist Lama, but then use a practice on them which a buddhist Lama may not use, that such a person would use the title 'Lama' in a fraudulent way?Quote
"What you previously called 'left-handed tantra' aims at control rather than balance, and is considered a Hindu practice rather than Buddhist for precisely that reason."
This was the way Karam-mudra described it and I was referring to her understanding of what had occurred using the same terms. I wasn't making any claims to the objective truth of how any individual might interpret the abuse of power, simply that on the subject of Nydahl's so-called liberation...Quote
BackAtHome
Do I understand this correctly: Are you confirming that a person can achieve the ability to intentionally manipulate the energy centres of another person in a very fundamental and irreversible way with this other person:
That is why the term "empowerment" is also meant in the most straightforward sense. I think a good Lama will clarify and de-mystify in order to empower their students, whereas Nydahl and DWB followers cloud the issue, thereby exacerbating any power differential, and that is why the situation varies according to the vulnerabilities of each individual concerned. Several people, upon reading such accounts, have remarked upon the similarities between such experiences and the use of hypnotic drugs to induce such states, as the idea that such "power" would be purely mental is not necessarily a category that the "lama" would apply to themselves, but obviously without proof either way that is just speculation.Quote
karam-mudra
When Nydahl is to force making a decision between spirituality and power he always selects power.