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BackAtHome
Right, that's why we need a lot of grains of truth to get the whole story. That's why I'm asking for real support here, not for answers trying to obscure the facts.

It is not any reasonable to deny the fact, that some people are able to control the mind states of some other people. There are many different techniques for that like
- a boss overpowering an employee who is financially depending on his job
- peer pressure (extreme example: third reich in germany)
- regular education of children from their earliest years, indoctrination, propaganda, censorship
- hypnosis and so on

People can be responsible for their own mind states if they have the knowledge that they might be manipulated and the independence and ability to withdraw themselves from that.

Right, this is exactly my point, and my response to your earlier question of how it is possible to avoid this.

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BackAtHome
What is important is the fact that people have these experiences in relation to buddhist teachers. The parallels in the reports of people who experience themselves as victims of mystical or tantrical manipulation are obvious. I can not believe, they all are just individually, self-created illusions of a confused or weak mind. Please read some of those reports and seriously rethink your position.

So again (not interested in discussing the question of responsibility here): Are there other members who like to share their experience or knowledge about people's minds being influenced by buddhist teachers or lamas, like some messages in this thread suggested regarding Mr. Nydahl and DW? Is it maybe a part of the teachings for buddhist teachers or lamas?

The point for me is that when Buddhism is practiced correctly, the opposite should happen - this is what is called "liberation".
Undoubtedly these phenomena are not just the imaginings of one individual, and as you pointed out, they are social phenomena that permeate well beyond the realms of Buddhist Lamas. My argument is that it is precisely because Nydahl has not fully let go of western values that this is occurring. Non-duality means that any empowerment is a self-empowerment, even when it appears that it is being given by someone else - In Nydahl's case what appears to have occurred with his followers is the opposite, a kind of self-disempowerment.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/01/2012 09:34PM by suenam.

The issue here is actually fairly simple from an objective rather than a subjective point of view.

Does Ole Nydahl behave badly?

If so how does he behave badly?

Does Nydahl hurt people?

If so what objective examples can be offered of people he has hurt?

Is Nydahl a racist preaching hatefully?

If so who has he specifically said to warrant this label? Can specific quotes be attributed that support this conclusion?

Philosophy and/or religious beliefs don't excuse such behavior.

Quite often destructive cults offer the apologetic spin that somehow what they should not be questioned because to do so is somehow "religious persecution" or "bigotry". The premise is we that what they do in the name of their beliefs is sacred and falls within the realm of religious freedom. Based upon this rationalization a religious group could potentially rationalize almost anything.

However, despite the fact that a religious group can believe whatever it wants in the United States, this doesn't include doing whatever it wishes in the name of those beliefs, e.g. clergy abuse, fraud, etc.

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karam-mudra
Quote from this blog:

"You know the story about the mahasiddha Ghantapa? People judged him based on their very limited worldly perception of him and his courtesan, when in fact they turned out to be emanations of Heruka and Vajrayogini. Perhaps this is a universal lesson: We don’t know as much as we think, and appearances can be deceptive."

In my eyes you did not grasp the point, you seem to deny the facts of Vayrayana´s Guru-precepts by assigning them only to Nydahl´s cult and taking away the dignity of my and others analyses in that way. And even though I see your posts here as important and lucid the model of your argumentation now is easy to read.

I do not want to gamble to much about Nydahl´s motivation here but I am convinced he is still deeply convinced of his doing as well doing. Only because I went out of his system I turned it into opposite. That was my decision. So we have the result you spoke about. I could have exist as a secret space dakini for the rest of my life, living consequently in a connection with Nydahl and in the certainy of beeing worshiped by him and also by Karmapa. I did´nt due to seeing that kind of worship as an hidden system of conquest female energies and a deep mysoginistic system at all.

So you are wrong when you "believe that your failure to realise this is part of the reason you have had difficulty in taking back control for yourself."

Aside from the fact that you speak about something you never experinced. The "quality" of the Bardo-state does not depend on any knowledge or insight, it depends only on individual and collective uncounsciousness which leads your Ego, I, counsciousnes or how ever you want to mention it. This phenomenon is only to balance, not to control. This is a process of eternity, like C.G.Jung said.

I agree with the idea that Nydahl may well believe he is doing the right thing, however you raise an important point. What you previously called "left-handed tantra" aims at control rather than balance, and is considered a Hindu practice rather than Buddhist for precisely that reason. (The story of Ghantapa is about him overcoming his own impure view which brought about the conflict in the first place.)

I do not wish to deny the dignity of your testimony, but rather to deny the validity of Nydahl's "power".
What you call turning it "into its opposite" is not the same as neutralising it.

The complaint of many posters on this thread suggests to me that what happens in DWB is that people who refuse to grant Nydahl this "power" are forced to leave, so the element of peer pressure and group conformity does seem to play a large part in maintaining this mythical image of Nydahl.

As the RRmoderator suggests, this intersubjective "power" is a subjective phenomenon which involves a degree of complicity brought about not only by Nydahl himself, but is also reinforced by the mentality of the group, and although such phenomena may not count as objective as such, the degree of misogyny and xenophobia, and the degree of sanctimonious moralizing does show itself objectively as the same thing made evident.

To put it another way, the belief that there is a mystical power that is somehow detached from physical and verbal evidence of the exercise of this power maintains a dualistic split which cannot adequately see through the way that the manipulation works in this case, and this is why I do not wish to exclude the ideas of peer-pressure and the way in which a group consensus is formed in DWB, which for me is a large factor in the creation of a cult-like atmosphere.

@moderator:

First I want to thank Rick Ross and all his moderators for giving the chance to publish all the thoughts about and experiences with Ole Nydahl here. Yesterday night I sat until five o´clock reading the thread from the very beginning and I only reached page 75, so thoughful and interesting were the posts. As fare as I remember I came in with my story round page 85, so I have some posts left. The quality of the discussion-level here is very high after my reading.

As a result of it all is to say, yes, DW is certainly a sect, is a cult. In my opinion the Lamaism is a priori a cult, but it is not neccessery here to share my thoughts.

When I remember the time joining DW and Nydahl I made a specific observation: When Nydahl is to force making a decision between spirituality and power he always selects power. A lot of histories here confirm this strategy. In my eyes the "best people", the most devoted and serious students are oppressed by that system, it is a on going subliminal insult which brings them into a situation of beeing split between their ability of abandon and the disregard through Nydahl. For all of them it is better to find annother place to grow spiritually. Let him have the rest of party-people, the ones who deal with power and aggressivity and hypocrisy.

You ask: "Does Ole Nydahl behave badly? If so how does he behave badly? "

Yes, a lot of testimanies for it can be find on this thread.

"Does Nydahl hurt people? If so what objective examples can be offered of people he has hurt?"

Take my testimony as an objective example. You know I have reported him to the police and the prosecution. Fact is, all participating lawers are beliving me but they find it hard or nearly impossible to prove it. I will find a way.

"Is Nydahl a racist preaching hatefully? If so who has he specifically said to warrant this label? Can specific quotes be attributed that support this conclusion?"

We had an example here some time ago when he said about prepared to use violence Muslim: Treat them like an unpleasant object on the street and kick them away. This is his normal diction in context of islam and his lawyers got their hands full to deny such wording.

"However, despite the fact that a religious group can believe whatever it wants in the United States, this doesn't include doing whatever it wishes in the name of those beliefs, e.g. clergy abuse, fraud, etc."

Yes, right. If for example we would have the same legal rules for spiritual teachers as we have for doctors, psychotherapists and school-teachers Nydahl would have great difficulties because of the masses of sexual contacts with his very young students. He is obviously exploiting his function as spiritual leader. But it is not illegal. That has to be changed and hopefully time will show it.

Let me bring in a comment of Debi Goodwin who made te film:

[www.youtube.com]

It is not just fear that stops women to speak out. Many question their own part in the affairs or know others will. The victims are often vulnerable women who have lost parents or been sexually abused before. They are confused young disciples who sometimes find the only comfort they have known in years in a Buddhist centre or in a master, women who have grown up without figures they could trust in their lives. When relationships became sexual they feel unsure of what to do. Two women who wanted to confront the master who had used them sexually were told by a leading Buddhist thinker to “get over it.” One woman told me that if any other “guy” had jumped her, she would have known what to do. But when a Tibetan, supposed to be a reincarnation of a lama, did, she found herself questioning whether accepting this was part of her path to enlightenment. Another woman describes herself as being so worn out from all the work she had to do in service to the master she was unable to reflect on the sexual relationship once it started. When I spoke to women on the telephone they seemed relieved that they were finally talking. For all of them, the events had happened years ago and they wanted to see them as something that was behind them. But doing an interview to be televised was another matter. One woman, who was eager to get her story out, took days to respond to my specific request to interview her on a certain day. She told me later that the reality of it hit her very hard and she really had to rethink if she wanted this out there. Another woman, once she finished her interview was filled with doubt and the realization that it was hard to open wounds she believed were healing. The women I have encountered have lost so much and have fought so hard for their equilibrium. Trying to recover from pasts by following a spiritual path, they were betrayed by the very masters who pretended to offer them hope. Debi Goodwin

@moderator: The film is about Sogyal but it shows the hurting process of women who have sex with their spiritual teacher in general. Very interesting! Ole Nydahl is for sure not going to act in the same way than Sogyal dies, but on a deeper level there are comparisons.

@rrmoderator: Thank you for clarifying.

@suenam: Thank you for your latest messages. There is so much to say about them, but I try to keep it short.

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"... what Nydahl did to you was against your wishes, ... It may well be that Nydahl opening your energy centres ... he believed he was doing it 'for the best', however the result proves that this was not the case"

Do I understand this correctly: Are you confirming that a person can achieve the ability to intentionally manipulate the energy centres of another person in a very fundamental and irreversible way with this other person:

1) not having any knowledge about what is happening
2) not having agreed to be manipulated in this way
3) not being able to understand what is happening when this manipulation is happening
4) not being able to stop it when it is happening or after it has happened

Please, this is of utmost importance (maybe not for the buddhist, but for the western world)! Can you confirm that this is possible and if so, can you tell us more about it?

Also, is it possible or maybe even usually the case, that the person who has achieved such an ability, has no means to control the outcome of such a manipulation and does know that he or she has no means to control the outcome of such a manipulation? This too is of utmost importance for the western world. Can you confirm that this is possible or even usually the case, and if so, can you tell us more about it?

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"... any empowerment is a self-empowerment, even when it appears that it is being given by someone else ..."

May this be understood as a confirmation, that a person can achieve the ability to intentionally empower another person? What would be the result of such an empowerment? Would that be an increase in body strength, or an instantaneous increase in knowledge, or an instantaneous shift in the ways how one thinks or what values one has or something like that? For you these questions must be very childish, but the western culture does basically have no experience with such things. Could you please clarify what is the meaning of "empowerment"?

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"What you previously called 'left-handed tantra' aims at control rather than balance, and is considered a Hindu practice rather than Buddhist for precisely that reason."

Does this mean, that if a buddhist teacher, like Mr. Nydahl, would intentionally manipulate the energy centres of another person in a way like the one described above, he would use a practice which may not be used by a buddhist teacher? Would that mean, that by gaining the trust of other people with claims to be a buddhist Lama, but then use a practice on them which a buddhist Lama may not use, that such a person would use the title 'Lama' in a fraudulent way?

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BackAtHome
Do I understand this correctly: Are you confirming that a person can achieve the ability to intentionally manipulate the energy centres of another person in a very fundamental and irreversible way with this other person:

This was the way Karam-mudra described it and I was referring to her understanding of what had occurred using the same terms. I wasn't making any claims to the objective truth of how any individual might interpret the abuse of power, simply that on the subject of Nydahl's so-called liberation...

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karam-mudra
When Nydahl is to force making a decision between spirituality and power he always selects power.

That is why the term "empowerment" is also meant in the most straightforward sense. I think a good Lama will clarify and de-mystify in order to empower their students, whereas Nydahl and DWB followers cloud the issue, thereby exacerbating any power differential, and that is why the situation varies according to the vulnerabilities of each individual concerned. Several people, upon reading such accounts, have remarked upon the similarities between such experiences and the use of hypnotic drugs to induce such states, as the idea that such "power" would be purely mental is not necessarily a category that the "lama" would apply to themselves, but obviously without proof either way that is just speculation.

I think we are argueing in a circle.

The last posts of suanam are supporting my suggestion Buddhism is a belief-system like all other religions, the only different makes the postulate it isn´t one.

I have my own belief-system but I am always able to reflect it, to go above. When I nevertheless belief, it is the result of a clear decision. Other people made other decisions. So I reflect and describe my experiences neither through buddhist precepts nor on the basic of the behavier of right or wrong Lamas, but on the basic of the values of my christian-humanistic culture.

"It may well be that Nydahl opening your energy centres was well intentioned ..." Are you able to open on´s energy-centers? I couldn´t. If you can, if it should not be a specific power of Nydahl or Karmapa, could you please describe, how you do it?

And, there was not only the opening of the Chakras but also -in a long tantric process- the flow-together of the both small inner channels into the central channel. That has much more results than opened energy centers. You can not imagine what it means to balance that power what is set free then, in and around you.

But I don´t want to complain about. It is just an evidence of incapacity that western meditators are not made familiar with that phenomena by the Lamas due to their dogma of secrecy. That is one of the main way how people are hurt by Lamas of tantric-tibetan Buddhism.

So it is my duty to speak openly about all their secrets just to help others in the same situation. How we can heal us. How we can be empowered to protect ourselfs. It is not very liked by them and so they reached the taking down of my blog with illegal methods. For it, only for the illegality, I wish Nydahl and his laywer a teach they won´t forget.

To whom it may concern:

Much of the meditation process can be seen as hypnosis and/or self-hypnosis, which is essentially trance induction. In this state of altered consciousness people become very suggestible and easily influenced. This can be much like a stage hypnotist who suggests things to someone he or she has hypnotized. In this state of mind people feel things subjectively and offer anecdotal testimonies about such experiences.

But the focus of this thread is objectively observable behavior, i.e. the behavior of Ole Nydahl and his Diamond Way group.

It seems to me that a number of people have periodically come here hoping to subvert this thread by going off topic about Buddhism, philosophy, energy centers, etc.

Let's stay on topic.

@moderator:

" ... which is essentially trance induction. In this state of altered consciousness people become very suggestible and easily influenced"

Yes, of course, and this is used by the Lamas and therefore it is "an objectively observable behavior." The whole idea of transfrences is based on those suggestible state of mind and well known in tibetan Lamaism.

"It seems to me that a number of people have periodically come here hoping to subvert this thread by going off topic about Buddhism, philosophy, energy centers, etc.."

Which motivation should I have to subvert this thread? I just talked about objektectively observable behavier of Nydahl and its consequences. So you can not think of me. Or you assume, my state of mind is just, that I feel things subjectively and offer anecdotal testimonies about such experiences.

Then you don´t believe in my experiences and my reflections, what is ok.

No, that state of mind and all what happens then to me is deliberately induced. But after your post I feel a little bit like the people who are telling, they had been carry off by aliens. That´s funny!