a wide range of views expressed on all the threads of this message board.

Our rules against 'preaching' in the bad sense is to ensure everyone gets a turn at the microphone so that diverse information can be shared.

One sign of preaching in the bad sense is hogging the microphone, not letting others participate.

The people in your group are not being persecuted because they are Christians, but because they are behaving in ways that violate the civil laws.

When asked whether it was right to pay taxes to the Roman authorities, Jesus reply was 'Render unto Caesar, that which is Caesars, and unto God, that which is God's.

For the good of society at large, we must ensure that small children get a quality of medical care that meets current standards, as defined by law. Making sure children are up to date on immunizations and go to the doctor and dentist regularly, not only keeps them healthy but keeps other children (and adults) healthy by limiting the spread of contagious diseases.

All this could be defined as 'rendering unto Caesar, that which is Caesars.'

And, Saul of Tarsus and the other early Christians emphasized that they were law-abiding, and prayed for peace and the welfare of the whole empire, whenever they had to deal with the Roman civil authorities.

David Koresh compared himself to "Jesus" too, as have many other cult leaders.

And whenever cults are held accountable for their actions or behavior it's typically somehow labeled by them as "persecution."

Same old cult sing-song.

But let's get something straight.

When children die due to medical neglect it's not the "Will of God," it is a crime.

As anyone can readily see by reviewing the number of criminal proceedings against members of the General Assembly Church of the First Born.

See [www.culteducation.com]

How can a person claim to be such an intellect and make such mindless remarks and hide behind the safety of a 2000 year old Fairy Tale?

Attributing medical neglect to the "Will of God" is the ultimate in ignorance. If God never intended that child to live there would have been no conception, end of story. God doesnt make mistakes, or does he.

If God sent you here to sing his praise and spread his word I'll reconscider his infalability... Never send a fool to do the work of a Prophet.

BTW Mr Gifted and Special, just because your group is chastized prosecuted and persecuted doesnt liken you to christ in the same way that taking an IQ test in a room full of farm animals and scoring in the top 10% makes you Tallented or gifted. I'd say you are special, in an Olympics sort of way. The Mafia is persecuted and prosecuted too and they arent up for Sainthood by any stretch. Try using an argument based in reason and reality, not on the pages of your favorite fairy tale.

As to why I am not being repromanded for what you interpret as violations of board policy, and this is also rather obvious so it doesnt supprise me to have to explain this:

Apparently I am not in violation of any policy rule or guideline. If such were the case one could only assume that I would be dealt with in the proper manner. But dont let that stop you from whining. Its a nice change from your random and seemingly pointless preaching.

Truth be told my comments to you are appreciated by other members of this board too polite to voice their opinions publicly. It may please you to know that several of us are having great fun at your expense as a result of your 'Tallented and Gifted" posts.

Diesel, you bring new meaning to the word "Gifted".

Anyways, as Im sure your struggling to figure this out, your valient defense of your cult is quite a touching display, but you havent convinced one person that your group doesnt have a place on the data base, and I doubt you've convinced anyone that you are as "Tallented or as Gifted" as you claim to be either.

You'd have better luck preaching to the choir Diesel, but as long as you can take being the butt end of our jokes feel free to continue your defense.

TO rrmoderator
The definition of persecute:
1. treat badly; do harm to again and again; oppress 2. punish for religious reasons 3. annoy

If you think that by trying to change the way we live, taking our children away, or calling us a cult(with comparisons to Keresh) is not persecuting us, think again. Definition 1 and 3 are apparent, and although you don't seem to be saying these things for religious reasons, you definitely say these things because of our religious beliefs.
And, if you state that when someone dies it is not the Will of God, then you deny God. If something happens, God has determined that it was okay for it to happen. If God didn't want something to happen, it wouldn't. Saying that the death of a child was not the Will of God, is saying that God doesn't have control of all things. And if you don't believe that God has control of all things, then you don't believe in God. It is that simple. Answer that one question; Does God control ALL things? It is a simple yes or no answer.

TO corboy
You stated the following:
"Jesus reply was 'Render unto Caesar, that which is Caesars, and unto God, that which is God's."
Who do we belong to? Do we belong to God or to the government? I believe that we belong to God and the government belongs to us. Read the Declaration of Independence. It states that "..that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed..."
Those words specifically show which is more important. A government can be changed, as history has shown. But God remains. We can read in the Bible, not only about God's love, but also His wrath. If I am given the choice of upsetting God or the government, I choose the government. It speaks about not fearing those who control the body, but He who controls the soul. Also, believe it or not, health is overrated. I am not saying that we shouldn't try to take care of ourselves, but eventually even the healthy die. If the choice is a healthy body leaving this world or a healthy soul, I choose soul unequivically. Finally,

"One sign of preaching in the bad sense is hogging the microphone, not letting others participate."

Who isn't participating? There are roughly 20 or so responses to my original post. Now half of those are mine, and the other half is by others, including yourself. How am I keeping others from participating? I cannot control what others write, or even if they choose to write. If I write more than you, that isn't keeping you from writing just as much. When I check the message length, it pops up that there is a limit of 10000 characters. I assume, you have the same limit. Still, you can post as many or more than me. You guys are the moderators, not me.

By the way, we also pray for our leaders, whom are in control, as well as the welfare of this country. We always have. We realize how blessed that we are to live in a country that does have religious freedom. Although with each passing day, people who believe in reason over faith, are trying to limit ours, and others, religious freedoms. I am as patriotic as the next guy. However, my priorities might be a little different than others. God comes first, then family, then the United States.

To templar:
It is obvious that you don't believe in God; you have pretty much stated that yourself. That said, no I don't mind being the butt of you and your friends jokes(how many can there be). And although I didn't think that I was whining, only pointing out facts, I apologize. However, it is easy for you to poke fun at my IQ score, although to be honest, that wasn't what was important about my first post. Whether you like it or not, it is what it is. If yours is higher great. If not, great also. It really doesn't matter. But for all your reason, try to reason some of the miracles that have happened to me, my family, and the members of our church. Can reason explain someone spitting up cancer? My father wasn't the only witness; there was at least 6 others. Can reason explain how my older sister was born blind, and was blind for the first 3 or 4 months, before she gained sight? Can reason explain how a dog can be choked to death by his chain, be dead(no breathing, no heartbeat), and after my mom and brother praying over him, the dog come back to life? Can reason explain how a cat that gets hit by a car, its back broken, its rectum pushed out like it was inside out, barely able to breath, and then through my sisters prayers, regain its original form and ways? Can reason explain how one person can come to another, without knowing the person that he or she is coming to, or anything about him or her, and suddenly tell that person his or her very thoughts? Can reason explain how a person can be deathly sick, unable to move without assistance, and then that person has the hands of the elders placed upon them, and those elders pray to God, and immediately that sick person is healed? These things still happen today in our church. We know that these things are acts of God. Answers to our prayers, His Children. Knowing these things, that we have God anytime we are in need, why would we choose to get man's aid? Do you really think that when you die, you are going to be able to reason with God? We believe that He has given us everything we need to have eternal life. I don't think He is going to appreciate it when you, or others like you, say, "Wait a second. I thought you were a fairy tale."

"Can reason explain someone spitting up cancer? Can reason explain how a cat that gets hit by a car, its back broken, its rectum pushed out like it was inside out, barely able to breath, and then through my sisters prayers, regain its original form and ways"

No but reason can explain someone believing in the nonsensicle and idiotic idea of someone 'spitting up cancer' or regenerating house pets. And no amount of babling near schitzo phrenic posts of family members praying and witnessing will convince me otherwise. In fact the more you reveal about your past the more I suspect there is some mental malady that could have been detected if your family didnt fear 20th/21st century medicine. Call me a blind optimist but I dont think its too late ya know.

As far as my doting on your IQ score is; its clear that you were trying to establish yourself as someone who's thoughts and beliefs were accredited and valuable yet in the same paragraph you state things that simply cannot be true only to reinforce your already weak arguement.

As far as who or what I believe in, thats not any of your business, and it probably never occured to you that I was just too smart to hand out personal information like that. Thats a lesson for you my friend. Just because I challange your beliefs and mock your lifestyle doesnt mean God and I dont have a 'relationship'. You assume way too much for someone claiming to be so smart.

In regards tohow many or few friends I have, say just here alone,
is already more than you if you have one to begin with... And it isnt the point either.

You should feel pretty foolish by now, after all you came here to try to cast your group in a fair light and all youve proven is despite your Holier Than Thou Brimstone and Fury, youre still not virtuous to avoid being dragged into a futile discussion bordering on argument.

If only you could see your own hypocracy, you might be able to find another pulpit to preach from.

Diesel,

Your posts are truly a fine example of cult -like mentality wherein members lose the capacity to think critically. What you describe is magical thinking, but by prefacing your posts with background history about your IQ, I guess as a defensive means of gaining some credibility.

Having worked for 15 years in the medical field, I've seen all kinds of wonderful cases, tragic cases, needless deaths, and what seem to be miracles. I've also seen doctors and nurses and other caregivers perform their duties with compassion, concern, intelligence, with adrenaline coursing through their veins, with weariness in the wee hours of the morning, even arrogant doctors who seem to be in it for the prestige. Is that not what your God created? Why would all this be going on if God didn't want little kids to have it available for them.

Fingers turn green with bruises and stink when wrapped with god-knows what kind of oils; rectums prolapse and go back; people spit up all kinds of crap. Since you don't go to doctors, how the hell can you make a diagnosis of cancer, gangrene, or pronounce animals dead?

The big point though is all that stuff is not about the charges submitted against your church, which you do nothing to dispute. Instead, you spew forth judgements about people not like you. I got such a laugh out of the "fountain of idiocy" because it is exactly my first impression when I read what you have written. You really give God a bad name by making it clear you believe people don't have the brains to take care of themselves or their children.

:D I guess they arent all as polite as I gave them credit!! Well said Hope, sadly I feel that yours will be like the best advice, falling on deaf ears, however if we all here at the boards pray real hard perhaps we can give the deaf back their hearing!!

;)

You're making assumptions about us, without any evidence.

Just because someone disagrees with you does not, in and of itself, prove that that person is an atheist or a bad Christian.

You appear to be quite fascinated by our material. Because you keep coming back and posting here.

If your church and relationship with God made you fulfilled and happy, you'd not be wasting your time yelling at us.

It may be you're scared about what you've read here. It may be the first time you've read something about your church from outside sources.

This may have given you entirely new, and scary information, about your church.

Perhaps, rather than admit that you feel worried, you're trying to drown your anxieties by bombarding us with Scripture.

What you appear to be doing in your posts is to convince yourself that your group is OK, after you've exposed yourself to some scary evidence that your group has a pattern of harm, backed up by court records.