RUN_FOREST_RUN Wrote:
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> I've been saying this for a long time:
> [www.firstpost.com]

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Beyond the appropriation of yoga, Hindu symbology is taken and used to make toilet seat covers. Tantra has been made into a fetish. A guru is anyone who has mastered his or her occupation. Karma is luck and fatalism. Meditation is just relaxation or at best, ‘mindfulness.’ The theory of reincarnation has been watered down, so hypnotherapists can perform ‘past-life regressions’. Even the word ‘dharma’ has been whitewashed and is translated to be synonymous with ‘religion.’ New Age self-help authors like Eckart Tolle (who is worth $75 million) get rich from Hindu ideology he gives no credit to. Kirtan is made performative by Western wallahs who claim that kirtan has nothing to do with any religion.

... and Japa das Joseph Bismark and Vijay Eswaran want to touch a billion hearts and are proud of a 25-year history that began in the Philippines with several hundred unfulfilled orders, both pose as spiritual authorities when profit is the driving force and goal of their QNET. Profit is rajas - passion. Stealing is ignorance - tamas. And apparently the goal is pure satva - freedom from both passion and ignorance. And the only two glorious deaths are that of a mystic and a fearless caring commander. Not a businessman....

Religious fanatics at their best: [www.rollingstone.com]

Yes, it's a nice ride. None of the fanatics will delve into historical details. That it is possible that the Sumerians came from Burma and Tibet, so they were closer to Tibetan Buddhism. Then something got mixed up there, because Avesta and Zoroastranism appeared next to Vedism, but where in Zoroastrianism we have good Ahura Mazda and bad Ahriman, so good fights evil and here in Christianity too strong Satan is closer to Ahriman as a rival. They will pass over the question of getting rid of Asher from the Jewish faith because of the similarity to Astarte, they will completely pass over in silence that Brahma like Jesus is also born and not created, although the visit to hell is more like the path of Yamaraja after the crucifixion. Of course, the history of the Jews is associated with the escape from Egypt, and yet it was in Egypt that thousands of slaves built the pyramid for the pharaoh, so that after death he could only see a ray from the star, which makes the Egyptians supporters of Tibetan Buddhism and as such a trace of pre-Sumerian beliefs, although when the beliefs were but not yet Buddha was...Hardly anyone will try to connect Chaitanya with the Battle of Kosovo and possibly Balkan emigration. It's not worth it. It pays to get subsidies, especially when there are more and more Hindu people in the USA.

I think the main issue with post vedic India is that Puranic Hinduism or "Santana dharma" aimed to assimilate too much all at once in an effort either to be more universally acceptable/appealing or avoid conflict with an expanding philosophically rigorous environment (hence making any Buddha into their vishnu and any Shankar into their shiva). Myth and ritual were fine for early tribes and dynasties til they werent. Bengali Vaishnavism was vibrant enough prior to chaitanya and chanting and dancing and Bhakti as a mechanism for feeling close to god was already there. The charism of the chaitanya saint was then bolstered an further amplified by fanatical followers. so while chanting and dancing and putting on plays about krishna and a quasi-sexual fascination with chandidas (who chaitanya was very fond of and has been now shown to not have been one singe "poet" but likely many assorted writers of erotic Radha-krishna poetry) and Jayadevs erotic poetry was culturally vivid and exciting in medieval bengal, it took on a philosophical bent under he go swamis interpretation (justification) of such lore/myth. Basically, the age old phenomenon of "how can something so wrong, feel so good?". They needed to create a theosophy and philosophy around an otherwise normal, very human fascination with song, dance, play and sexual arrousal. How can we meditate on this new (new tot he medical culture at the time that had up till them been mostly concerned with renunciation as a prime focal model for self-realization) pop-cultural fascination with art/song/sexuality/caste-rigidness etc—and make it into a viable spirits movement.

Cults do this all the time. A central cult figure has some "realization" and then uses culturally pleasant phenomenons (dovetail for the service of the Devine) as a method for feeling spiritual. Butler did this with his cult. He often had devotees pair popular rock/folk song rhythms with mantra chanting. and to this day his cult has assorted jazz/rock/folk influences in its appeal to mantra chanting. In other words, it's more fun to chant and sing when it is culturally relevant tot he type of music/myth/narrative your culture enjoys already. as opposed to having people chant and sing bhajanas ala Krishna Das baby and Bhaktivinode that perhaps are bit rough not he ears and tend to sound like demonic chanting to outsiders.

So how to make the "All attractive" attractive to people who would otherwise not really find it all-attractive? well, abandon the parts that don't appeal o eh western mind and slowly morph it into that is acceptable to the western mind.

The multi-billion dollar ever-growing and never-finished Mayapur temple of ISKCON is a classic example. The architectural structure is more akin to the Vatican and greco roman architecture than traditional hindu temples.

So at what point is it all just a make-it-it-up-as-you-go-along show? No wonder "hindus" often don't feel confident or comfortable in their own cultural skin. It has been so variously interpreted and re-mixed it lacks any solid identity. It can generally be whatever you want it to be. If you just want to go to a yoga stretching class and read some Gita and wear a Ganesh shirt, you are just as much a "hindu" or even vaishnava (as king as you like one of the 10 incarnations of vishnu) as anyone else. Obviously one can plainly see that as all cults evolve to mainstay religions once they pass a certain threshold of appeal, so the same is and has happened largely to "gaudiya" or "bengal vaishnavism". Like mormonism and its assorted claims, you can now find Mormons (an American religious cult) in just about every corner of the globe... What makes mormonism any less "true" than "bengal vaishnavism" or"chaitanya vaishnavism"? The answer is nothing... esoteric writings of Mormonism are equally "deep" and philosophically sound as any goswami literature.

[www.outlookindia.com]

[www.outlookindia.com]

From Chaitanya:a life and legacy:

"Above all, Chaitanya consistently entertained a Brahmanical fear of the temptations of the female body and would come down very harshly on a follower who had violated the rules of male continence. In one such tragic instance, a devotee by the name of Choto Haridas (Haridas Jr.) was banished permanently from the community for daring to beg for some rice from a woman. Despite repeated intercessions from his close followers, Chaitanya refused to re-admit Haridas into the community, eventually forcing the man to take his own life."

That's some culty excommunication at its best. Think about this. A young man was ostracized by his religious community and teacher with such harsh guilt that he took his own life. Brainwash much?

Run...

Is this the book the story is from?

[academic.oup.com]

This story is an important find -- thank you! And, as a story, it really stinks.

It shows that Prabhupada taught a tradition that was, by our standards, toxic by his time. It is a story that the Hare Krishnas do not tell prospective recruits.

Even if this incident did not happen, it is truthful at another level -- information about cultural values implicit in the story. For it was a story was and retold to justify male fear and hatred of women.

It is possible this story was 'brand advertising" a story created to make an implicit claim that the newly created Chaitanya order was more virtuous because its male followers had superior chastity because they shunned females more than other lineages did.

In other Hindu monastic orders, it was NORMAL for male monks to go on begging rounds and accept food donations from women. Women took care of food stores and would have had cooked food ready at hand. The men would have been out at work, women cooked the meals at home.

To this day wandering Hindu and Buddhist monks and Muslim Sufi mendicants carry begging bowls.


Krishna devotion was a bhakti (devotional) movement. The various bhakti movements began comparatively late in Indian history and developed among the non Brahmins, among the lower castes who were barred from elite rituals.

As the bhakti movements gained followers and prestige, only then did the Brahmins move in to co-opt them. Chaitanya, if he was a Brahmin, was an opportunist. Or it was a story told to claim that Chaitanya, a non Brahmin, had actually been a Brahmin.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/05/2023 09:05PM by corboy.

Hi Corboy,

Yes, that is the book. Of many many that I have read. And I can post dozens of such nuggets of culty goodness. Ironically, the books are not even biased or against Chaitanya Vaishnavism or Bengal Vaishnava cults. Just reporting things "as is". If anything they praise the epileptic charismatic religious cult leader in broader terms as far as social-political aspects are concerned.

By the time the average devotee hears these hagiographical tales in chaitanya bhagavata or Charitamrita or other hagiographical and biographical works, they think of it all as "the lord's mercy" and the lord's "transcendental pastimes"...

Meanwhile, Ntyananada was asked to abandon sanyas, often found drunk, and married several times... If there was a "standard" it was certainly lost in translation in the hagiographical accounts.

YOu are right about the evolution of bhakti cults. They were a sociological response to harsh Brahminical rule I most cases, but as per Brahmin style throughout history, they even usurped that and tried to fold it back into their myths.

Bhkatisiddhana spent an inordinate amount of time perpetuating the brahmin diksha, sanyas diksha and reinstating the rituals of both in a cult that historically had babajis and claimed: "I am not a brahmin/Sudra?etc etc"... There were obviously many bhakti cults during and before that time that had already successfully abandoned caste structure and subjugation... Why reinstate it and create yet another divisive hierarchical system in a cult that had otherwise seemingly rejected it? to this day, in Gaudiya cults, brahmin initiation is looked at as an increase in one's status and Adhikari, let alone sanyas diksha.

Chaitanya was a brahmin. He was born into a Mishra family and many of his followers were Brahmins, aside from 1-2 accounts, he only took food that was cooked by Brahmins. Obviously, there is little surprise in all this as it was the social climate of the time and what was accepted as the norm among Hindus. all that said, it seems odd that an avatar of god (or god in person as they claim him to be) had little to no control over manifesting more favorable circumstances to show an example to humanity about abandoning all unnecessary social and religious ideologies in pursuit of pure devotion to their deity of choice. He meanwhile seemed to have no problem breaking other laws of physics and social norms by manifesting as Varaha vigraha and pulling out his Sudarshan to chastise the drunken brothers Jagai and Madhai...

Never mind that for a god to appear only some 500 years ago on planet earth literally no one knew of him even within the confines of India besides a few states where he toured. Da Vinci was more famous. I mean, there were literally hundreds of people more known, influential and successfully spreading their doctrines and ideas around the globe by then. Apparently, everyone had to wait for Bhaktivedanta to convince some drug-fueled hippies that his doctrine was the one true way for anyone to really know about the cult... Now, only to be reduced to "just another cult-turned-generic-religion", replete with your average Sunday-church-goer, guru-priests, and heaven/hell/good/evil dynamics...

And, never mind the bold claims of finding "lost texts" that bolstered his ideology of Krishnaism and the power of the so-called "hare Krishna mahamantra" not even really mentioned directly in many of the hagiographical texts let alone the kali-yuga texts of Gita and Bhagavatam... The mantra is literally mentioned in ONE very questionable (by grammatical scholarly standards) "Upanishad", yet somehow is touted as the supreme. Any questions you ask about specifics are always explained away as "well, these things are only for the special people... These things are secret, not to be revealed to just anyone etc etc..." give me a fucking break already.

Humans are either more powerful than god and can successfully distort even the purest of messages, or god is weak and can't make his true wish for humanity known by a long shot. But you cannot have both. In the meantime, RUN from these groups making these claims and understand them to be what they are: Fraudulent cults.

RUN.

It's been awhile since I have posted here but I do check out this forum from time to time.

I came across the horrifying testimony of a woman who was literally assaulted by demons after leaving a Tibetan Buddhist cult.

Needless to say the parallels are obvious.

She wrote of her experience here:

[tantricdeception.com]

Please run from Chris Butler. Don't look back.

RUN_FOREST_RUN Wrote:


> Cults do this all the time. A central cult figure
> has some "realization" and then uses culturally
> pleasant phenomenons (dovetail for the service of
> the Devine) as a method for feeling spiritual.
> Butler did this with his cult. He often had
> devotees pair popular rock/folk song rhythms with
> mantra chanting. and to this day his cult has
> assorted jazz/rock/folk influences in its appeal
> to mantra chanting.

Recruitment motive. Criticized or argued by members of traditional sangs that these climates, moods, sentiments have nothing or much to do with Gaudiya moods.

I was personally tired of jerky kirtans, where a well-known Polish leader on retreats led kirtans like a heavy machine gun. Tiring. But you know - the classic division into extroverts - the need for strong signals and introverts - weak signals.

> From Chaitanya:a life and legacy:
>
> "Above all, Chaitanya consistently entertained a
> Brahmanical fear of the temptations of the female
> body and would come down very harshly on a
> follower who had violated the rules of male
> continence. In one such tragic instance, a devotee
> by the name of Choto Haridas (Haridas Jr.) was
> banished permanently from the community for daring
> to beg for some rice from a woman. Despite
> repeated intercessions from his close followers,
> Chaitanya refused to re-admit Haridas into the
> community, eventually forcing the man to take his
> own life."

Chris Butler, a married paramahamsa, was not so orthodox. In order to supposedly accept service from women, he married but did not give up the title of paramahamsa. And he wasn't so orthodox - he was massaged by Alan's daughter Tibby Acharya das - that was the rumor.

Take WVA founding friend U. Harlan, who allowed himself to be massaged by women-devotees so flexibly that it was said that their nimble hands were drawn to his pipe, and a scandal broke out.

hoax108 Wrote:
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> I came across the horrifying testimony of a woman
> who was literally assaulted by demons after
> leaving a Tibetan Buddhist cult.
>
> Needless to say the parallels are obvious.

I know both the clairvoyant's report and vision, where as a result of the SoI/SIF practice an astral channel was opened for various entities, as well as the flow of energy through various channels. According to one of the clairvoyants, probably women - initiated leaders in Poland had an established sexual channel with Chris Butler - virtual. Their attraction was sentimental. Confirmed in some cases from the outside.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 08/08/2023 05:28AM by Culthusiast.

Jai! I recall hearing stories like this and in my brainwashed head this all sounded gloriously kosher:

The most dramatic incidents of Viswambhar’s life may be said to have taken place in the period between his return from Gaya (January–February 1509) and his accepting sanyas (roughly a year later). One major development that commenced soon after his return from Gaya was the holding of nocturnal kirtan sessions involving Chaitanya and his most intimate followers and companions. These were mostly held at the residence of Sribas, famously known in Gaudiya Vaishnava history as Sribaser Angina (Sribas’s courtyard). Contrary to what may appear from this description, such sessions were held behind closed doors and certainly hidden from public view and soon became the subject of considerable local gossip. The orthodox society in Nabadwip alleged that Viswambhar and his companions secretly practiced sorcery and black magic in the name of kirtan singing. By all appearances, the participants in these kirtan sessions were keen to maintain strict privacy and would not allow the presence of people not considered a part of the group. During one of these sessions, Viswambhar sensed the presence of what he called an ‘intruder’, who happened to be none other than Sribas’s mother-in-law who had hidden herself in one corner to watch the proceedings unnoticed. On Viswambhar’s orders, however, the old woman was literally dragged out by her hair—a very un-Vaishnava act to say the least.

From Chaitanya a Life and Legacy.

Also from the same text on the topic of the Charlizement of the Kazi:

Also interesting is that authors such as Vrindavan Das and Krishnadas Kaviraj—who were among the first to report the incident in some detail—vary significantly in their descriptions, while some others such as Karnapur, Lochandas, and Murari Gupta ignore it altogether. Ipso facto this raises some doubt about the veracity of the incidents reported.

If you can barely trust the scriptures and authors of a 500 year old cult, how can you even entertain a 5000 year old text????

RUN. And not to BS of Butler having open Astral channels with his polish female Sanga or so-called demon attacks... like in the opposite direction of falling for any of that monumental trash.