Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: Culthusiast ()
Date: January 09, 2023 03:41AM

> “The world stands in no need of any reformer. The
> world has a very competent
> person for guiding its minutest happenings. The
> person who determines that
> there is scope for reform of the world, himself
> stands in need of reform. The
> world goes on in its own perfect way. No person
> can deflect it even the
> breadth of a hair from the course chalked out for
> it by providence. When we
> perceive any change being actually effected in the
> course of events of this
> world by the agency of any particular individual,
> we must know very well
> that the agent possesses no real power at any
> stage. The agent finds himself
> driven forward by a force belonging to a different
> category from himself. The
> course of the world does not require to be changed
> by the agency of any person.
> What is necessary is to change our outlook on this
> world…The scriptures
> declare that it is only necessary to listen with
> an open mind to the name
> of Krishna from the lips of a bona fide devotee.
> As soon as Krishna enters the
> listening ear, he clears up the vision of the
> listener so that he no longer has
> any ambition of ever acting the part of a reformer
> of any other person, be-
> cause he finds that nobody is left without the
> very highest guidance. It is
> therefore his own reform, by the grace of God,
> whose supreme necessity and
> nature he is increasingly able to realize, by the
> eternally continuing mercy of
> the Supreme Lord.”

A very controversial text - in this wording. Regardless of translation or authenticity. But staying with the philosophy itself, whether Bhagavad Gita or Bhagavatam - controversial. Let us take the order itself - ksatria. The role of the ksatriya is to intervene, to reform a narrow section of the world by forceful intervention. How to interpret the teachings of the Bhagavad Gita where Arjuna at some point is not going to change anything. Krishna tells him that he has to take part in a battle in which he does not want to participate. Of course he is not a self-proclaimed reformer but he listens to Krishna. Of course, nature is supposed to force him to fight anyway if he is laughed at, etc. But at the moment he didn't want to fight. He could listen to Krishna and go home and he would like that version at first. But the science was different - he was supposed to finish off the family.Maharaja Pariksit is not idle when Kali beats a cow and a bull. Of course, here one can argue that instead of a guru, the transcendental agent is Krishna himself. What about Krishna's words that the entire world accepts the devotee's exemplary behavior? Is there an element of reform here or not? In this context, a devotee does not reform by outward action but by example - reforms - taking into account the concept from the Bhagavad Gita. Krishna himself says that if he left the godless worlds to themselves they would turn to ruins and that's what godlessness is all about. But again as a transcendent factor.

What does it mean to reform the world? change the laws that cannot be changed or give a different direction to the course of history or make local corrections?

It's matter. Let's take a temperate climate. Whoever is dropped into a wasteland resembling Central Europe without civilization will be confronted with the seasons. In order to function somehow, he will be forced to reform the world in his narrow surroundings by building himself a house and then building a fence and cultivating a field.

In turn, is spirituality itself the solution - whether it was Gandhi or someone else who said that before simple beggars are taught spirituality, they need to be pulled out of at least basic poverty.

Or taking into account the empirical knowledge that allows you to reform the world. Imperfect in the sense that the conflict nature of man remains, but some simplifications appear. The doctrine itself says that the jnanis are able to come to liberation by their own efforts. Along the way, getting rid of ignorance can also bring benefits.

So in this wording - it goes against the philosophy itself. In the sense of naively changing the world without understanding it or without respecting the laws of the nature - no doubt. That is, a factor in the form of a guru providing knowledge. But the interference is contained even in philosophy itself - kshatria. Or in the teachings - he goes hungry and is not left alone - he gets food as the care of the host.

Of course, you can also discuss the story of Prometheus who gave people - poor creatures of clay - fire, which can be treated allegorically as technical education or education about the phenomena of nature of morally and intellectually undeveloped beings. They will misuse it and Prometheus himself will be punished... And so on.

Giving a monkey a submachine gun instead of a razor, etc..Theoretically, more dangerous, but when the magazine runs out, the fun is over and you can finish off a large part of the local jungle with the razor of the night...

Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 01/09/2023 03:54AM by Culthusiast.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: Truth wins ()
Date: January 09, 2023 05:53PM

It is important to try and grasp this reality as a whole. Not to just focus on SoI and Krishna Consc.
Krishna consc is just one piece of the puzzle.
butler is just one other narcissist with some mental disorders.
We must go much deeper into it all and try to understand what the actuall hell is going on.
It is only through going deeper and deeper that we can truly start seeing the bigger picture.
And as I said it before, none of us are equal to each other. We are all at very different states.
The issue is not to only care about the ones who are caught in the cult of butler. Try to protect some from entering the cult of butler…
We must care about all of humanity who is being deceived left and right. Why? because we have been trained to look outside of ourselves for gurus and answers.
My greatest and final stage of getting over the wounds of abuse, was to start seeing it as an experience. Not to get stuck in the hurt, anger, resentement…
The past cannot be rectified. We can only move forward as stronger beings.
butler was not able to break us but we are here breaking him. He held us and manipulated us through fear for years. But now we see that he has zero power.
I no longer feel like a savior or vigilante. I am a researcher of truth.
I have done my best to tell the devotees they were being scammed. However one cannot force people to have vision.
Saving people from sex trafficking is surely a more noble and rewarding job.
Those who are trapped in cultic situations find a way to stay happy in that situation. They will only get out when they can no longer take it.
One of the most terrible things that butler does, is to tell people that beggars can’t be choosers.
So we HAVE to put up with crap and people we cannot stand in the group.
Same way, we have to accept the most horrible karma and fates on this planet because we deserve it. Even though we don’t remember our past lives.
We have to accept that a guru who makes you work so hard that you get autoimmune disorders, is your well wisher.
You have to believe that the most powerul entity on the planet, the representative of GOD, is one of weakest and most fearful people you have ever seen.
It is only when you put all fears aside, that you will be free.
Fear of being unloved, unpopular, misubdestood, alone, death, suffering, diseases, god, offenses…
But when you do speak like this, you will be considered a demon. Because only demons don’t fear god(s) and offenses.
The greatest lie that butler has ever sold his diciples is that he is ATMARAMA.
He is not spiritually, emotionally, materially self sufficient. He makes people believe that he needs noone but he does stand his disciples out of mercy.
Who is going to wash his underwear,50 towels a day, clean his house, make him 10 organic dishes a day (with masks and gloves), pay for his well located properties?
Who is going to fuel his narcissism with praise and worship?
Who is going to work for free for the wailana business?
Whom can he bully and fell superior to?
I would love him to prove his effing atmarama side for a year. Let him be self sufficient and take care of his rotten body alone. Make his own money or het on welfare. Go beg door to door like a true Sannyasi.
It is actually a sad situation that an entity like mr midgett is seen as so superior. That people even watch what he is eating and hold on to every word that comes out of his mouth.
Yet he depends on a guru who depends on his diciples.
Imagine having given your life, time, soul, love… to such a person.
All this because of peace, bliss, international travel, being second in command of soi, being loved and adored by all devotees.
Spending all your life being blind while you think you have xray vision.
Studying so many scriptures that are meant to set you free and teach those scriptures.
For what? Just to be protected from the material world?
And yet fall prey to a massive predator such as butler?
Yes that life is sweet. Much sweeter than the life I have been given. Full of misery and loneliness.
However, I will not exchange my post cult suffering for any of that BS bliss.
No matter how ugly and painful, TRUTH, is our only protection.
When you stand by the side of truth at any cost, it will protect you like 30000 bodyguards.
Obviously the gods of religions have failed to protect their “devotees” regardless of religions.
But we must trust that karma, the second coming of jesus and Kalki will take care of the false prophets.
Don’t lift one signle finger. Let the gods take care of it whenever the hell they decide to.
No. The truth must come out and noone can stop the Tsunami wave of truth.
The garbage lies will and must cme onto the surface like a painful parasite cleanse.
Some may refuse to see the truth but the 1 % who is ready, is worth the effort.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: corboy ()
Date: January 09, 2023 08:33PM

This is a very complicated situation.

There's a strange poem called Ecclesiastes which tells us there's a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing, a time to love, a time to hate, and so on.

Yes, there is a time to let the past be past, let go and give things a rest.

Yet and yet....this message board has been here for for us because over 20 years ago, a man named Rick Ross took action. Rick set this message board up to provide a harassment free sanctuary for those harmed by Butler and his minions.

You all too action by bearing witness. Over the years you've created a community.

A place where some of you can set the burden down and rest and others of you found ways to take further action.

This message board is still here after 20 years because Rick stood his ground and got help from a series of excellent lawyers who donated their services.

There is a time to let go and a time for action - and each person decides what those times are.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: Culthusiast ()
Date: January 10, 2023 02:19AM

corboy Wrote:
> Yet and yet....this message board has been here
> for for us because over 20 years ago, a man named
> Rick Ross took action. Rick set this message board
> up to provide a harassment free sanctuary for
> those harmed by Butler and his minions.

Thank you Rick. Many people owe this forum to overcoming enslavement and many have been warned thanks to the materials. And will be warned. Perhaps some will save the rest of their ruined lives. People owe you their escape from the hell of slavery.

Truth wins Wrote:
> We must go much deeper into it all and try to
> understand what the actuall hell is going on.

This is a difficult proposition insofar as even scientific evidence is denied or ignored for the sake of politics and big interests. Take, for example, the increased standards for the permissible power of microwave radiation. German research was presented to Polish parliamentarians, which showed that microwave radiation causes the appearance of stress hormones - adrenaline and noradrenaline in the urine, and the level was maintained even 1.5 years after the cessation of exposure to radiation. However, standards have been raised. So it's even harder to raise awareness about things that science doesn't accept.

> We have to accept that a guru who makes you work
> so hard that you get autoimmune disorders, is your
> well wisher.

Well wisher "Paramahamsa" that got married...

> Who is going to wash his underwear,50 towels a
> day, clean his house, make him 10 organic dishes a
> day (with masks and gloves), pay for his well
> located properties?

And remind him and his wife about ekadasi through a note. 2 days before, 1 day before and on Ekadasi day. This is an exemplary behavior followed by the whole world.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/10/2023 02:20AM by Culthusiast.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: Truth wins ()
Date: January 16, 2023 01:01AM

There are no words that can express the gratitude I feel for this forum.
I guess it saddens me to see to what extent people can get brainwashed into accepting slavery and fear as love.
I see how I have been blinded my whole life. Even outside of the cult. And when you wake up, you just can’t believe how you could have been so blind for so long.
And we just become passive actors in other people’s scripts.
Narcissists, bullies… want to run the show and direct whomever is willing to be an extra in their movie.
I look at kind souls that fall into the abusive guru trap and my heart just breaks.
What an absolute waste.
I guess that one must respect the free will of those who are comfortable with the bliss of ignorance.
We are pretty much on our own if we seek much greater truths than the ones sold in the spiritual supermarket.
A known non sense is always more comfortable than stepping into the unknwon.
And leaving a cult truly feels like landing from another planet. You once belonged and had a greater sense of purpose.
Even though we are grateful for leaving the lies and abuse behind, we may hold on to the positive that made us stay and feel happy.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: Culthusiast ()
Date: January 18, 2023 05:34AM

This is a transcript of a conversation between Chris Butler, "S", Siddhaswarupananda (Siddhaswarupa Dasa since he abandoned/broke his sanyasa vows) and David Muncie, TKD, Tusta Krishna das on September 11, 1998 regarding SoI Poland's "Science of Identity Institute Chaitanya Mission" conflict with the Republican League and among others Dominican Information Center on Sects and New Religious Movements. This is a transcript publicly read in Poland.

Facts: It was "SoI" Poland activists who first gave meditation classes in the art studio apartment of Leon's 80-year-old devotee Narasimha dasa, which he rented from a church or religious order. There is no information about the Church's approval of this teaching. There were Catholic schools in the area. The lease agreement has been terminated (in polish "wypowiedziec" and "rozwiazac" have different meaning). A scandal broke out. Previously, the staircase was pasted with cards, e.g. "sects are insects" and skull&bones.


September 11, 1998

S: I don't think we should continue doing what we're doing in connection with this Republic League, or whoever these people are as far as having debates with them. There's no reason to do that. We're just giving them juice. If we do do this, if they do think that there's something we need to be doing, I think we should be considering taking a different angle on it. I probably talked to you guys about this before, that you're being defensive. It seems like you're still being defensive, that they're still doing the same angle, that they're accusing us of certain things and then we deny them, saying, "Where's your proof?" and then try to tell everybody, "We're okay, this is our history, this is our sampradaya." It sounds defensive to me still. Didn't you guys tell them not to do that?

TKD: Well, yes, I've talked to them.

S: It's kind of hard to not be in a situation of defensiveness if you go there and you know you're going to be with people who are attacking you. It seems automatic that you're going to be defensive. I want to be on the offense. So what we should do is consider taking another angle on it, and that is taking the offensive. If, for example, we go to these shows we should take the offensive. Say that it's quite ironic and unbelievable that the Catholic Church would be attacking ourselves concerning some of these things when they have such big problems of their own. We should look at what's at the base of these people's telling lies about us.

It's because they know that young people are turned off by the Catholic Church, that people in general no longer have any attraction due to the activities of their priests. Many people have lost faith in the Catholic Church, and they're afraid of losing followers. In fact, the Catholic Church has really become full of homosexuals in their seminaries. Their seminaries are known breeding grounds for homosexuals and pedophilic activities. And have a whole list of all the pedophilic activities and the priests who've come out because they've raped 30 boys or 100 boys or whatever. And so on. And also talk about how so many of the priests are in fact alcoholics.

It would be interesting to note that in fact no serious members of Chaitanya Mission have ever been in a mental institution, but we're sure that there are a very large number of Catholics in Polish mental institutions. If you went to Poland right now and asked people what their religion is, the vast majority would be Catholic. And we could go to these mental institutions and find thousands of people who were raised as Catholics and follow the Catholic system and they're in the mental institution.

In fact, what's really going on here is that these people are afraid of religious freedom. The reason they're afraid of religious freedom is because they know that our religion is superior to theirs. In other words, they know that they cannot compete on the level of ideas and spiritual experience. They know that they cannot compete with us on the level of philosophy, theology and actual religious experience of the practitioner. So they have to go the route of telling lies and so on. These people are afraid that they're going to lose followers to us.

Take the offensive, my point being this: If these people go around and they want to get in a wrestling match with us like this, then we hit them. Not with lies, but with truth - "What we're saying is all documented, and what you're saying is not documented at all. Yours is just outright lies, whereas everything we're saying is documented: the rampant homosexuality and pedophilia, the alcoholism and so forth. This is all documented and recorded. Whereas everything you're saying is not documented or recorded at all. It's all just lies." If they want to get into a wrestling match with us on that level, then we'll play on that level.

Just basically say, "Listen, if you guys want to have a discussion here on philosophy and debate and see where we have common ideas and try to have a relationship that's cordial, one that's cooperative and ecumenical, then this is what we have hoped for. But you people have essentially declared war on us. You're trying to destroy us. You're trying to destroy us, but not by having a superior philosophy or theology or religion. You do not want to have our competition be in the realm of ideas and so on. You want to smash us through Nazi-type fanatical tactics of lies and innuendo. First we tried to be nice. We have not focused on the negative side of the Catholic religion. We tried to see the positive, and we continue to do so. However, if you are going to debate with us and criticize us with lies and you don't have any documentation, then we have no choice but to respond in kind in the sense that we will be criticizing and pointing out in fact the downside of the Catholic Church."

Then go into what we're saying. Every time we go on the air with them, the public hears about pedophiles, alcoholics, faggots. Every time. Every single time they go on the air with us, we need to bring up the fact that the church is full of this. Then what will happen is that if we hit them strong enough they will leave us alone. Do it in a humble way. "Listen, we feel sorry about your religion. We're sad that you people do not have your act together. We're sad that you have lost the taste for spiritual life and spirituality. We are saddened by this. It's not that we gloat in it. We would like to see you succeed. We would like to see all Christians and everyone from every religion succeed in their attempts to get closer to God and to help people get closer to God. The fact is that you people, by and large, to a certain extent have failed and people are therefore looking for other paths. We are offering another path. And if you want to know why you have failed, here are some of the reasons why you have failed:

1. People don't actually have any spiritual experiences. They don't get any. Maybe they don't get something from your religion.
2. They're turned off by the fact that - so many reports have been documented for so long now that your seminaries are full of homosexuals. Essentially, your church cannot speak out strongly against homosexuality because you're so full of homosexuals. There are so many homosexual priests and so many of them are pedophiles that nothing ever happens to them. All over the world there are Catholic pedophile priests who have over the years molested tens of thousands of children. None of these people are in jail; none of these people get exposed by the church. The church just moves them around to some other parish after they get caught. How can people trust this kind of church?

Make a list of points. Just hit them hard. What will happen is that, if they have a brain in their head, they'll probably stop. But if they want to continue, then hell, let's continue. Stop being defensive. "People come to us because they know when they come and hear our philosophy they see logic in it, they see reason in it, they see truth in it, they experience truth in it. When they chant with us they experience a happiness within themselves that they don't get when they're with you people. But in any case, if you say a lot of people get happiness within your church, then that's fine. We're very happy for them. We don't go around and picket in front of your churches and try to shut your churches down. We respect the rights of individuals. So if you're going to sit here and start criticizing us because you say that we believe in perverted sexuality or this or that - you have no documentation, nothing to back it up - then we are going to in fact expose you for what you really are, and that is absolute hypocrites. You are the people who believe in perverse sexuality. You people are the ones with seminaries that are full of homosexuals, etc. You are the people who hide pedophiles and protect pedophiles and move pedophile priests from parish to parish. You've been doing this for decades. How many people out there became homosexuals because of what their parish priest did to them? And how many of those people that have become homosexuals around the world are now dying of AIDS or spread AIDS around the world? What is the Catholic Church's responsibility in the creation of the homosexual movement?" Etc., etc., etc. Just hit them with it.

But then of course come back to the humble side, too. "We really don't like to have to bring up the dirty underside of what you people's faults are. But you're forcing us to now. We'd rather debate and consider - we'd rather work together cooperatively as best we can with people. But you are the ones who are trying to destroy us. Let's get the truth out there. And the truth is this: you don't have any evidence whatsoever for any of the you're making. And there are tons of evidence about the things we are saying about you. Now, if you don't want to play on that level, then let's go to another level and discuss philosophy. Let us discuss the differences or the similarities in our teachings. Let us try to see the positive and try to work together in some way. If you don't want to do that, if you want to try to shut us down like fanatics and Nazis, then this is not acceptable. We're not going to sit here and accept you telling lies about us and everything else."

Just demand from them. Say, "No. You are saying this. We want to know why have you not protested in front of the Catholic Church. You say you're concerned about young people. If you're concerned about young people, what have you, as an individual or as an organization, ever done to protect the children of Poland from pedophilic priests. What have you ever done? What have you ever done to get the homosexuals and the pedophiles out of the Catholic Church? Why aren't you working on the problems that you have within your own church and that are really affecting the children, really affecting our society?" They focus on young people, right? "Oh, we care about young people, we want to protect young people." "If you want to protect young people, then what have you done about the pedophiles that are wearing priests' robes?"

I just think that we need to do it in a way that we preface it with a sincere statement of respect for Catholics and the Catholic faith and that we have no desire to be critical. However, when Catholic activists or priests criticize our faith, which is actually older than their own, we have no choice but to point out that if they really care about people, especially young people, they should not be attacking us but should be using their energy to clean up their own house. As Jesus said, "Take the log out of their own eye." Young people around the world, including in Poland, who have been molested by Catholic priests have been damaged emotionally and spiritually. If they really cared, this is what they would do. They would try to clean up their own house first.

We have no desire to be criticizing the Catholics. But our hope is that these people will direct their supposed interest and concern for the people of Poland, especially young people, to improving their own faith and clean up their own house and get rid of homosexuals from their seminaries and get rid of the pedophiles and child molesters and help put them in jail and help their priests who are alcoholics, etc. This will be more likely to achieve what they want to achieve - namely, to get young people and the people of Poland to respect them more - rather than simply criticizing us. Instead of criticizing us, they should simply try to improve themselves.

We do not spend our energy trying to criticize them. We try to spend our energy trying to improve our own spiritual condition. We try to improve our mission. If they have any sincere, bona fide, constructive criticism that they can tell us - if they see, for example, that we are hurting young people - if they can show us, "You are hurting young people by this certain way. These are the young people who have been harmed." If they have any evidence of this or if they have anything where we are harming people in any way, then we would want them to come forward and tell us. If one of our priests, for example, if one of our leaders, was a homosexual or a pedophile, we would want them to come and point that out to us so we could get rid of such a person.

Right now they don't bring us any evidence. They don't bring us anything that actually shows that there is any harm being done or how we could improve ourselves. All we can do is do our best and carry on with our mission as best we can and we would hope that they would try to do the same. That angle on it, that if anybody in the public or people like themselves have any actual criticism that's constructive and they truly feel we're hurting anybody or that there's something we can do to improve the way we do our work, we are always willing and open to accept such criticism. But we cannot accept simply fanatics who are lying and criticizing things that don't exist or saying things that are untrue and having this blanket fanatical "anti" attitude. These people cannot be taken seriously because they're obviously not sincere.

In other words, it's a humble, honest attitude. We're not fighting with them. We're simply pointing out, saying, "Listen. If you're sincere, you have this energy, you want to organize and improve things, then clean up your own house. There's all this damage being done to young people." Just keep repeating the same thing. Get your main things over and over. "Clean up your own house. Get the log out of your own eye. Get rid of the homosexuals and the pedophiles. Apologize to the young people who have been molested in Poland and elsewhere." Just keep repeating it.

And then say, "If there is ever any evidence that any of our teachers or anybody in our mission is engaging in the kind of activities of drug-taking and alcoholism that, some of your priests fall into, or if there's any evidence that our teachers are not following our principles of morality or that they are hurting young people in some way, we are always willing to receive such information so that we can try to keep our house in order. We call upon the public and people in general that if there ever are any problems like this, certainly we want to know about them. But this kind of blanket fanatical hatred that is being expressed here without any evidence or without any information is not at all acceptable."

TKD: I was just thinking, why don't we write this up also as a pamphlet or a big, long letter and send it to a few thousand churches in Poland, all the top officials.

S: Yes, I think it's a very good idea. Get something written up with a nice vibe. Wishing them well and wishing Pope John Paul well. That in India followers of Vaishnavism have never interfered with Catholics and so on. This is an unfortunate situation. Definitely I think this should be done. Get something written up nicely like this. That's probably a better way to take the offensive than be defensive.

TKD: Yeah, and let them know what the other alternative is. If they want to do that, then we can make all this information available, too.

S: Yeah, but we should be having this as something for the public. We should do this in "Haribol Polska."

TKD: I thought we could give it to all the media, too. Send it to all the church people and the media.

S: Yeah. Definitely. But it's the kind of thing you could put in your magazine. An open letter to these Catholic groups that are criticizing us. Unlike many officials in the Catholic faith, we encourage people to come forward if they have evidence of any problems - what I described. If they have any such evidence they should bring it forward to us and so on. We're always open. Maybe even to the point that - there are many issues that we could be working in common on in the spirit of religious tolerance and understanding.

The other thing I was going to bring up is we should give serious consideration to - or, actually, do, rather than just consider - doing something in India. Going to Puri and getting photographs, getting videotapes, having some Polish people go there and meet maybe with Hindu organizations and tell them the problems that we're having. Describe how in Poland we are having these difficulties and how we would like them to help us by approaching the Christian Catholics over there or whatever and maybe do a protest in front of their churches, if need be. "What's good for the goose is good for the gander" (or whatever they say). "If it's good for me, it should be good for you."

To be honest with you, I think one of the easiest ways you're going to get the Catholics up on top bummed would be if Catholics in India start protesting what the Catholics in Poland are doing. That's going to be more effective than just us protesting. We have to show that we can make their lives hard, too. But this would be easier, of course, if we just did this first. But it's not necessarily either/or. Anyway, that's a subject you should maybe think about and maybe start implementing or planning on implementing.

TKD: If we're going to go to India, there are a couple things we could do with video if we have video people there. We could do a thing like we talked before about a whole thing to raise money, showing the terrible condition of the holy lands.

S: Yeah. But we can also just do a nice thing on going to some of the sacred places and get footage. And we can do a nice voiceover later about some of the holy places ________ Lord Chaitanya's places. You can get a lot and then we don't need to use all of it. Video is cheap, video is easy. A cameraman is all you need.

Re: Conversation with Priest from Puri

S: Did you tape this conversation we had with this priest from Puri?

TKD: Yes, they did.

S: I don't see any reason why we need to have him edit anything. He's not going to help us anymore anyway. If he comes out and says, "I didn't say those things," as long as you have a tape of him saying that, then you can prove that he lied, and you then say that obviously he got pressured from above and so on.

So we can print it. But the point is that - to me it is valuable if he said that she is wrong and that if we tried to put a Hindu temple in a Polish holy place it would not be tolerated. And those things where he's talking about Puri and how nice it is, some of the things you guys told me. What you guys should do in that same issue is have an article on Puri, an article on Lord Jagannath, an article on Lord Chaitanya in Puri, chanting and immersed in love for Krishna and so on. Maybe take something from the Chaitanya Charitamrita or whatever. Have some pictures of Jagannath temple or something.

TKD: Yeah, they did have something similar to that.

S: That's what I would do. As long as we can say that the publishers said that we cannot accept censorship. It's a matter of principle. If a person says something, and it's on the record that they say it, then they can't come back and say, "I want to edit it," because they got pressure from somebody above or something. Otherwise it would set a dangerous precedent. As journalists we have to be honest about things. Make sure they didn't erase that tape or anything to reuse it. You have to do that first.

Sue Them

S: I don't know if this is a new group: The Center for Information about Destructive Cults.

TKD: Yeah, it seems like a new one.

S: Why are we threatening to sue them? Why don't we just sue them?

TKD: Yeah. I talked to Tapasya das briefly today. I told him I would talk to him later because I wasn't feeling good. I told him that if they do anything where they want us to talk with anyone else, we should prepare a piece of paper that we give to them every time that says that if they want to say anything, make sure it's true. If it isn't, then this is to put them on notice that we're going to drag them into the court.

S: Yeah, we just sue these guys. There's no value in going and being nice to these people. No value in it at all. You're not trying to be friends with them. You're trying to have them scared - there's a saying (was it Reagan?): "I don't want the rest of the people in the world to love us. We just want them to respect us." Actually, one of the guys said "to fear us." "We don't want them to love us; we want them to fear us." So that's what we want. We want them to fear us. Make that clear. I'm very tired of these people sort of grubbing around in the dirt like this. "Please. You don't have any evidence. You shouldn't say these things."
September 14, 1998
Page 7

People in Poland also have a letter from Tapasya das to the leaders in which he calls for boldly posing "challenges" to the Polish government and the Catholic Church.

Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 01/18/2023 05:39AM by Culthusiast.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: Truth wins ()
Date: January 18, 2023 06:26AM

What a sad waste of time to have this lunatic give you life instructions.
The fact that I am still here is not because of butler, the miseries I experienced in the cult.
I feel emotionally distant from it all.
I have an aversion toward the evil of this world. The forces that have very personally messed with me and my life.
There is nothing more troubling than evil that stays hidden. Or semi evil people like butler who pose as prophets.
I don’t really have a life or future. So I might as well do something positive.
butler has pushed devotees to lie and cheat. What kind of god representative is this?
Many have lived illegally in the US for decades. So many arranged marriages for the green card. Money laundering. Drug smuggling.
We were constanstly encouraged to lie about everything. The secrecy of SoI should be the greatest red flag.
In the past years, I have come to realize that lies and cheating catch up with us.
It is like a game of chess. And at one point the unseen forces will screw you over if you have gone astray.
The whole point of the gita is to transcend the so called sinful tendencies.
I personally don’t give a damn about governments and wish they did not exist.
However, breaking immigration rules… pushes one to be dishonest and lie.
When you enter the US to serve the master for free, you have to come up with 20 lies.
I know people would cross the US border with no luggages. Pretending they were going to the US for a day trip and then jump on a flight to serve the master.
Parasite cleanses, 20 vaccines, quarantines, living in garages and eating rotten veggies, lying to immigration officers.. all this for some bliss and dedication to a slave master.
Same way tulsi has been pushed to shamelessly lie from the start.
The issue with devotees is that they only carry the guilt of being offensive to a fake prophet and some deities (we have zero clue what they are).
But they will rarely sit and focus on their lies, dishonesty, how they treat others…
I am more detached from the material world that I have ever been. I see my inner darkness 1000 times more than when I was a guilt tripped devotee.
I have no guru, don’t study scriptures, don’t meditate 3 hours a day.
Imagine entering a community that pollutes you with garbage qualities such as lying and cheating.
And then makes you mentally ill with germaphobia and hypochondria.
They are free to run their rotten institution, but they must stop considering themseleves so godly.
Do they even care about saving humanity or are they looking for potential free slaves?

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: Culthusiast ()
Date: January 18, 2023 07:32AM

Truth wins Wrote:
> butler has pushed devotees to lie and cheat. What
> kind of god representative is this?

what kind? Such a kind that his trusted Balakhilya das is about to give a webinar "Greed has no limits" and at the same time the chipmunks report that Japa das is in Davos. Interestingly, the same Japa das communicates remotely that all these personalities who have met do not know that they are souls. Dude can't still compete with them on the level of power and finances, so he builds his self-esteem with a mission of spiritual education. When his profile puts money and networking on top. such a kind. King kind.

Check yourself! Checky checky!

> Many have lived illegally in the US for decades.
> So many arranged marriages for the green card.
> Money laundering. Drug smuggling.

Mind expanding chemicals as the base for the "spiritual achievements". You know who cares about a 64 year old mystical yoga process especially when you got kicked out of school. You take juices, mind expanding chemicasl, hashish, LSD and we go on a journey. When we come back, we can save the world. It is true that money will be needed for this, but our faithful company plus a flock of free workers will allow us to plan already $ 2 million after the first year. Down to Earth sweethearts until we touch the hearts of the whole world and build the greatest sect. And then we'll have our own US president.

> When you enter the US to serve the master for
> free, you have to come up with 20 lies.
> I know people would cross the US border with no
> luggages. Pretending they were going to the US for
> a day trip and then jump on a flight to serve the
> master.

Master of luggage lie distaster...

> Parasite cleanses, 20 vaccines, quarantines,
> living in garages and eating rotten veggies, lying
> to immigration officers.. all this for some bliss
> and dedication to a slave master.

Master Master
Vaccines, cleanses
lies, disaster...

> Same way tulsi has been pushed to shamelessly lie
> from the start.

See her vote record:


> They are free to run their rotten institution, but
> they must stop considering themseleves so godly.
> Do they even care about saving humanity or are
> they looking for potential free slaves?

Idol, institution of exclusive salvation, insurance premiums. What more could you want? Go to Phuket? Flirt with mid-age salesgirls at a vege festival? cheap meat...

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/18/2023 07:33AM by Culthusiast.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: RUN_FOREST_RUN ()
Date: January 19, 2023 02:19AM

Chris butler, always the PR man and ready to sue instead of debate with rationale and logic.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: Truth wins ()
Date: January 19, 2023 05:01PM

The experience I have had with leaving Krishna consc has been similar to giving up the relation with a jealous narcissist.
I cannot believe that as soon as I stepped out, my life was turned into hell.
And this is a reality that I alone know and I don’t care how others judge me for this unique reality.
This is why I don’t solely blame butler. I have seen the true faces of the forces behind this institution.
And I have come to the point where I pitty the deities of all religions for needing so much love, prayers, obedience…
It is not a sign of power to need humans to bow down in fear 24/7. To rule over them via guilt and self doubt.
To say that you keep punishing souls life after life because there can only be a one number 1 in the spiritual realm.
There comes a time when you find forgiveness in your heart for this mess we call material life. And the greatest challenge is to forgive the upper unseen government.
And there comes a time when you can’t even feel the nails of crucification. It just becomes the norm to get screwed over and over again.
Those who decide to worship butler and the gods, must be aware that they are slaves and in a prison.
And there is nothing wrong with still loving your slave masters and peison wardens.
Same way you still care for imperfect parents who send you in therapy for 30 years.
It is what most beggars do in this reality. We keep settling for garbage relations out of fear of dying and living alone.
It is good to be conscious that we make decision out of fear.
There is nothing wrong with being weak or loving semi demons and narcissists.
We must always be honest with ourselves and not fool ourselves.
Look at our own darkness as well as others’. Including the unseen rulers that call themselves gods.
It gets pathetic when you brainwash yourself into believing that demons are angels.
And that narcissists are saints.
This is when you have truly lost the plot as devotees have. And thankfully they know they are in a mental hospital.
Unfortunately they think they are the only sick ones while their psychiatirst, gurudeva, is much more in need of antispychotics than they are.
Brainwashing ourseleves in order to buy a lie that makes us feel happy, is truly sad.
One can easily accept that they are not ready to be miserable without the lies.
Same way an addict admits that they cannot live without the substance that is gradually killing them.
I am a person who will always be hated in this realm. I no longer keep myself nor others in a state of lie and comfort.
Yes no need for an Ahole guru to tell me am an Ahole.
I am mature enough to see it myself. To see all my sins and mistakes. And not hide from my ugly side like a scared baby.
No need to guilt trip ourselves over and over again all day long. Crawling like worms and repeating I am the most fallen.
Just get on your effing feet and man up. Accept all your inner crap without feeling like crap. Just become a better version and move on.
Repeating the mantra I am the most gullible would be more appropriate in Krishna cosnc.
Stupid for buying all that crap as love and mercy.
At the end of the day, the more brainwashed you are, the happier you will be.
Yes I too experienced a huge amount of transcendental bliss as a devotee. But now I see that I have rained on my own parade by deprogramming myself.
So one must be ready to face the void of not buying any programs.
And giving up Krishna consc is not much different than not depending on the cannabis high to stand reality.
It is a painful crash and let go of the bliss in exchange of inner freedom.
But feeling free within is worth all kinds od challenges and torture. It is when you get there, that you can easily say no to the spiritual cocaine that is offered to you by the pushers such as butler.
Pick your drug of choice in the spiritual supermarket. Decide which program is worth the brainwahsing and lying to yourself.
See which programs makes you the happiest and more stoned so that you never realize what is truly up.

Options: ReplyQuote

Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.
This forum powered by Phorum.