Current Page: 742 of 743
Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: RUN_FOREST_RUN ()
Date: August 17, 2021 12:05PM

If it is the case that anyone can claim initiation via some dream or give themselves sanyasis diksha and make up brahman thread initiation for people and claim the birthplace of some saint by virtue of a vision then this is not any sort of method of varification. It is no better than Mormonism or any number of religions. The fact is that during chaitanya's time there was no shortage of sanyassi vaishnavas who can give him sanyas. Yet he chose to get sanyas from a so-called impersonalist clan. Same with Bhaktisiddhanta. There was no reason to say that there was no way to get proper documented diksha from a predecessor. The fact is he did not do it. He established his brand of the gaudiya vaishnava faith as paramount and superior to others. He was viewed as being a totalitarian preacher, as a so-called lion guru, who everyone is afraid of inviting to discussions. He created a private clan that challenged so-called sahajiya babajis, but he himself was givin siddha pranali—or a so-called revelation of his "gopi" body.

[www.mahanidhiswami.com]

I think it is absolutely disingenuous that Butler and ISKCON do not come right out and be upfront that this is their practice and final goal/offering to their practitioners. This is the unique ideology and conception of the gaudiya cult. It is not some feel-good "lets just all chant the names of the lord and every little thing gonna be alright!".

So basically, as with all cults, to reveal this deeper, hidden, secret aspect, a person needs to go through several layers of brainwashing and conditioning to be able to not hear something like that and be either repulsed or simply think they are dealing with a nutty cult. Plain and simple.

In fact, it's so highly "off-limits" to discuss this, that guru's like Narayana Maharaj and Tripurari and others have been labled as offenssive or otherwise "bogus" for preaching it. Yet, it's right there in their guru varga history, the so-called biographies of the goswamis and chaitanya saint as well as books like harinam chintamini. Grown men whispering to eachother that they are little 12 year old cowheard girls helping the erotic blue god and his concocted consort have "eternal fun". That is the prayojana and supreme offering of the cult. Yet they tip toe around it and bat around terms like adhikari and sukriti and that everyting will be revealed in "due time" as we surrender more and more to the "holy name" and the guru's service. Yet, it's always abstract as to what such service really is. Is it literally washign the guru's underwear? Or is it preaching to the unsuspecting and unwitting public about "yoga" and "kirtan" and "Karma kandha" and "dharma" and "hinduism"? Who is rendering real service? Who is the judge of this? What is the measurement for what service is, how much devotion someone has, if their connection to some guru is deep enough, have they heard correctly, have they recieved the holy name in it's full power from a pure vaishnavas lips or do they have a version of the mantra uttered by an impure source (or is it offensive to even consider that the holy name can be in some way lacking in potency no matter who iutters it)? etc etc.

The answer is that there is not a clear answer—yet logic dictates it would be prudent and of utmost importance to have a clear and agreed upon response to such questions. At the end of the day, we are not talking about learning math here or how to play the piano. Yet oftentimes in an attempt to appeal to a rational brain the gaudiyas will make it sound like their religious system is some step by step process that can be verfied and tested and seen in live-action sequence. That's not the case. In fact there is little to give any indication that any of the guru's in this line are "realized" to begin with. Not to mention that as soon as you start to talk about dreams and visions as methods of authenticationg something, it all falls apart. I mean what's to stop tom, dick, and harryji from claiming they got diksha from lord brahma for all it matters—in a dream or vision?!

Have you ever heard tapes of bhaktivedanta chanting on beads for new initiates? It sounds like an unintelligible drone. You can hardly make out a word of the mantra he is saying. He is rambling through it like it's some sort of mass-produced thing that you have to repeat 108 times for it to have some sort of magic effect. I fthe mantra is so powerful and he is such a pure deovtee what difference does it matter if he chnate the mantra once? all these haphazard rules with little meaning beyond blind ritulistic fanatacism.

Meanwhile, giving gayatri mantra and thread to western devotees is a complete concoction. As are the neck beads, sikhas and other concocted rituals. They have literally zero scriptural refferce or very few vague references with almost zero rationales behind them. And whatever happened to the guru teaching according to time, place and circumstance??? Why would Prabhupada apply a medieval Indian dress code to appeal to the western mind and share so-called vedic wisdom? After all, in a philosophy that puts so much emphasis on not being the body, there is an undeniable heft given to how people dress, shave their heads and the big difference between men and women.

Siddhaswarupananda Jagad Guru Paramahmasa Chris Butler built his cult on the very premise of the guru being supposedly self-evident, self-effulgent, never appointed, there is literally not a single contemporary Hari Krishna group that doesn't use appointment of a guru/acharya as its primary assurance of a continuation of a so-called unbroken lineage. Any gaudiya math and offshoot ISKCON cults appoint thier successor gurus and the next generation of followers falls in line under said new appointed guru. Sridhara maharaj and all other gaiditya math's didi it and many other gaudiya cults. What is the origin of this and how is that showing a guru to be self-evident.

And as the contradictions abound as to their core ideology, message and public presence, there's really no surprise that they ultimately brush all the details under the proverbial rug and just tell people to chant and be happy. While usually, the more answers one asks, the more clear the whole package becomes, it's the exact opposite with this cult. The more questions you ask, the more layered, confusing, paradoxical, contradictory and just downright nonsensical the answers get.

The profound simplicity of Vedic Brahma vidya devolves quickly into an unintelligible smorgasborg of concocted sentimentalism in these groups.

Completely impractical layers of complexity, secrecy, innuendo, mysterious hidden messages, abound in such cults. It's a type of brahmanism 2.0. Were only an elite set of people, who have the wherewithal to master the jargon and harness enough charisma, have a right to rule over the lower castes. Is it not so? Otherwise why even introduce brahman thread diksha in a cult that largely reject such labels. The bhakti movement throughout history fought heavily against brahmanism, yet all of a sudden, we literally have it as a core practice within the religion to give Brahmin initiation. And it is a hierarchical thing, is it not? Within the cult, those who have received the Gayatri Mantra, a strictly rig Vedic mantra, along with certain other concocted mantras (kama gayatri anyone???) that supposedly give them deeper entrance into the meditation upon the erotic pastimes of the Divine couple, are treated with more than just casual respect. We have all given our ears and time to such so-called advanced devotees knowing very well that they are breaking all manners of regulative principles, taking drugs, having illicit sexual relationships, abusing children or spouses. For example that the Swami was addicted to taking tobacco snuff on a daily basis. He was also well aware and even encouraged less than Savory ways of making money as well as full knowledge that there were children being abused in his makeshift religious indoctrination schools.

Butler had no problem marrying his own disciple and breaking his vows but having all manners of opinions about who his disciples married. He claims that a pure devotee is self-effulgent yes he had to dictate to his flock who amongst them was pure. Usually as long as it suited his narrative. Katyayani comes to mind as does his wife. Tusta too.

Now we bow to Bhalakilya and Acharya Das as elevated souls. Never mind their core involvement in many illegal activities for Butler.

The more complicated the web, the easier to hide in it, the easier to find ways around things and explain away just about everything. Kind of how massive drug cartels are not his work. The only difference is that these guys meddle in the abstraction of spiritual rhetoric. Or everything can be a part of God's grand plan and to question it is a mortal sin. Fear much?

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: DaWatcher ()
Date: August 17, 2021 02:55PM

The presidency of Tulsi Gabbard was also supposed to be "God's plan". "Hey boys, she accepts an abortion." "Don't be offensive, she is God's best servant, you don't understand the motives. She will save the world. Don't judge because it's offensive (Balakhilya Midgett das)." . Ooops. Something went wrong ... So what was the plan? I can see only weapons sold to India..



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/17/2021 02:56PM by DaWatcher.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: Frozen Nick91 ()
Date: August 17, 2021 05:17PM

Hey! Can anyone explain me who Balakhilya Das is? His videos are linked frequently by the Butler group I crossed. The homepage is as neutral as possible and his labels seem to me like some kind of lifestyle yoga narrative that proclaims again 'a goal' in spiritual practice (boring). But I couldn't find a direct link to Butler. Thank you guys.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/17/2021 05:19PM by Frozen Nick91.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: IanKoviak ()
Date: August 17, 2021 10:33PM

Bhalakilya is a disciple of bhaktivedanta (the group that Butler essentially brought with him to iskcon and quickly took back/left with him when the Swami died). a butler boy through and through from the start. When I was young he was hittin o'duoulls with other older devotees. There was even some scandal where they started rolling Tulsi leaves and smoking them. I don't recall the details besides Butler blasting them for it. He was always kind of a vagabond and lived traveling and in vans a lot. He was 100% involved in moving the bowler drug money for Butler in some way but I don't know specifics. Since I had left the cult, he seems to have gained in position and popularity within the Polish Community. When I was young, he was still respected because he was a senior disciple of the Swami and one of Butlers early crew. Always very stoney for lack of better words. He'd hang with the late and great Purushottam das' family. That's were I'd see him pounding nonalcoholic beers in the back with his old timer buds. Him and acharya Das always had a guru complex. They spoke very slowly, calculatively, and in a sort of drone with their eyes closed as if they're channeling the good stuff (totally copying Butler's mannerisms and speaking style. Similar to how bhaktivedanta Swami's disciples copy his Indian style of speaking and hand gestures when giving lectures). Bhalakilya models his look a lot on butler's style in the 80s and 90s. Dewatcher knows more about the Bhalakilya you see today, his temperament and all that. There are definitely many who have walked away from this group and were very close disciples of Butler who have seen the unsavory side of the man. It appears he's enjoying his newfound attention as a guru figure. Go figure.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: DaWatcher ()
Date: August 18, 2021 03:54AM

Frozen Nick91 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hey! Can anyone explain me who Balakhilya Das is?
> His videos are linked frequently by the Butler
> group I crossed. The homepage is as neutral as
> possible and his labels seem to me like some kind
> of lifestyle yoga narrative that proclaims again
> 'a goal' in spiritual practice (boring). But I
> couldn't find a direct link to Butler. Thank you
> guys.

Polish website Mantra.pl Facebook profile

[www.mantra.pl]
[www.facebook.com]

regularly presents webinars by Johny Baldwin Midgett aka Balakhilya das.

Generally, this is how their recruitment method works. They start with hatha-yoga to attract some interested, and then communicate at some stage that the real goal of yoga is not only physical health, etc. And yoga is not only exercises (asanas). It is important that this message is not educational in nature, but the negation is supposed to make the educated person feel guilty and make the educated feel worse. There is a negative element of emotion here. Disturbance of self-esteem. What then continues.

Another way to recruit is to showcase single dancing women. A bit of a feminizing image, a bit of lesbianism. Someone will accuse me of nonsense, but when you look at Mr. Balakhilya das - comments on his webinars - it's the admiration expressed by women - 95% of regular commentators are women.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/18/2021 03:55AM by DaWatcher.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: DaWatcher ()
Date: August 18, 2021 04:09AM

IanKoviak Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> There was
> even some scandal where they started rolling Tulsi
> leaves and smoking them. I don't recall the
> details besides Butler blasting them for it.

Ha. And at the beginning of the webinars, Balakhilya das argues that since he met his Guru (Siddhaswarupananda) things have turned beautifully forward. He forgot to mention about smoking Tulasi leaves. He also forgot to mention he was a follower of Katyayani dasi .... He also forgot to add in this short introduction that the initiating Guru was A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami. The introduction says that Siddhaswarupananda is an expert in the knowledge of yoga, etc. An intelligent man will ask, why then does Siddhaswarupananda not give lectures?

Of course, recently (1-2 weeks ago) he gave a webinar that stimulants are not a good method for spiritual experiences.

Another method....


> He
> was always kind of a vagabond and lived traveling
> and in vans a lot. He was 100% involved in moving
> the bowler drug money for Butler in some way but I
> don't know specifics. Since I had left the cult,
> he seems to have gained in position and popularity
> within the Polish Community.

He replaced Tusta Krishna das, i think in 1998 (my notes).


> That's were I'd see him pounding
> nonalcoholic beers in the back with his old timer
> buds.

What about alcoholic?

> Dewatcher knows more about the Bhalakilya you
> see today, his temperament and all that.

My last personal observations (2011, 2012), when I was on the retreate in Poland for which Balakhilya das came, were for example: there were dinners with Balakhilya das on the retreat. Such pretense of maintaining relationships with people. They seemed artificial to me. During dinner with Balakhilya das, people could ask him questions. People working in the kitchen performed their service and served food to the seated (seva, service). Balakhilya das received dinner as well as spices and many other kinds of food or gifts that the people sitting at the table did not receive. The conversation itself was uncomfortable. Because you either eat or talk. I confronted this many years later as a guest of a Sanyasin and his disciples. His position was honored, but all those who eat prasadam had the same as the Sanyasi ate. There was no question of them being neglected in any way. The prasada had to be honored, so the discussion was not relevant at that time.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 08/18/2021 04:16AM by DaWatcher.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: DaWatcher ()
Date: August 18, 2021 04:27AM

IanKoviak Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> He was 100% involved in moving
> the bowler drug money for Butler in some way but I
> don't know specifics.

This is an important point as he acts as an authority and expresses his right to teach directly. His assistants writing on FB or he himself claim to represent the authority of the Vedas - whatever that means - after all, there are many schools and currents that accept the infallibility of the Vedas, but he does not wear Tilak in his lectures. Who and what does it represent then?

As for the Polish thread, the son-in-law of P. Bowler (Paramahamsa das) is Z. Pabian (Yudhisthira das). He founded the company Laboratoria Natury (Nature's Laboratories) which was sold at some stage. Rumors say that the funds after the sale were transferred from Poland illegally. A member of SIF Poland worked there, who later became a highly initiated brahmana in another sangha. Well educated, he created a cult warning page. According to reports, he was fired from work when it was found out that he was a member of another sanga or with some delay when his dismissal no longer threatened their interests. Z.Pabian broke the heart of one of the women in Poland. She became mentally ill and is still ill today. Very delicate and empathetic. A victim of rude behavior at SIF Poland.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/18/2021 04:31AM by DaWatcher.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: DaWatcher ()
Date: August 21, 2021 03:08PM

And now another act of geopolitical drama is unfolding. Tulsi Gabbard did not want the USA to be a world gendarme. USA is leaving Afghanistan. The Taliban takes the place after the USA. Those unloved by SIF Muslims. Well, but so far they are not behaving so badly. The question is how they will treat women. Was it in Tulsi's plan? Maybe the best woman presidential candidate should say something to Afghan women? Words of comfort?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/21/2021 03:09PM by DaWatcher.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: Frozen Nick91 ()
Date: August 30, 2021 08:43PM

Another question:

I literally had to google like 2 maybe 3 times to find this culteducation site with the Butler thread and other disturbing information, confessions from ex-members ect. Why is noone of the members actually doing it? Looking up in the Web? I just cannot wrap my head around the fact, that many people in the Butler group I encountered have high academical degrees and are educated people and it takes so little to figure out, also that the whole ontology of the Butler group rethoric and 'philosophy' is filled with actually really bad almost dull arguments, than can be easily counter evidented as unreliable and even wrong. There are multiple mistakes on his website even, that can easily be questioned and seen as wrong or misleading information.Proofing information is so easy nowadays - and I talk about facts, not about opinion! For example: on one of Butlers websites it is claimed that the lineage goes back to Vyasa, who compiled and wrote down the Vedas 5000 years ago. The first part about arranging the Vedas might be right while the second part is completey misleading. The Vedas were written between 1500 and 500 BCE, no person can live that long and write things down. It is commonly accepted in the scientific community that the Vedas were written and written down by multiple beings over a long period of time. It needs 1 time googling to figure this out and even if you don't want to trust the mainstream Internet you can look this up in several encyclopedias (electronic and paper) it is so easy. Why is not anybody in the group doing that, please explain this to me? It seems almost absurd, that such an out dated Cult is still active. The people who join it do also agree to join complete blindness and bad education, to be part of it, how it seems.

Greets, Nick



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/30/2021 08:49PM by Frozen Nick91.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: DaWatcher ()
Date: August 31, 2021 02:15AM

Frozen Nick91 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Another question:
>
> I literally had to google like 2 maybe 3 times to
> find this culteducation site with the Butler
> thread and other disturbing information,
> confessions from ex-members ect. Why is noone of
> the members actually doing it? Looking up in the
> Web? I just cannot wrap my head around the fact,
> that many people in the Butler group I encountered
> have high academical degrees and are educated
> people and it takes so little to figure out, also
> that the whole ontology of the Butler group
> rethoric and 'philosophy' is filled with actually
> really bad almost dull arguments, than can be
> easily counter evidented as unreliable and even
> wrong.

Because for simple minds that reject, for example, the Catholic Church, you need some faith, not too complicated, guru, idol, institution of salvation and association.


And for some of those 'complicated minds'....Technique of psychological and energetic manipulation, psychological, karmic affinity ... Business?

The second point is how, under the influence of the SIF narrative, you did not start a family, you are a single woman with no property and you are 45-50 years old, is to admit that you believed in the guru and his entourage, who broke a number of rules of their own religion and even the rules of own cult (Hawaia sampradaya...) that have evolved is a tough proposition.

And if they want to, they don't believe it. All of this evidence. Deny it. But if you are dealing with manipulation or a lie, then somewhere at some stage a player appears who decides to end this game or make it more difficult. And when we deal with breaking the law and crimes - the penal code - it should end with charges, sentence and execution of the sentence.

> There are multiple mistakes on his website
> even, that can easily be questioned and seen as
> wrong or misleading information.Proofing
> information is so easy nowadays - and I talk about
> facts, not about opinion! For example: on one of
> Butlers websites it is claimed that the lineage
> goes back to Vyasa, who compiled and wrote down
> the Vedas 5000 years ago. The first part about
> arranging the Vedas might be right while the
> second part is completey misleading. The Vedas
> were written between 1500 and 500 BCE, no person
> can live that long and write things down.

When you talk to some Sanyasis, they admit or even emphasize that the Vedic scriptures contain meanings, whether symbolic, factual or hagiographic, or describe certain principles. EMPHASIZE AND ACKNOWLEDGE that certain aspects considered from the level of the logic of the physical world are IMPOSSIBLE at this layer. I.e. "such and such couldn't do this and that because..".

But that's not in Poland. For example, there are sheep which needed charismatic leaders of centers. Ready to execute any command, value system taken over. Suddenly the leaders were failing. These people can no longer live on their own. Part of the myth has collapsed. There is no leader. He deals with matters that do not quite align with the philosophy or standards of the cult ...



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/31/2021 02:20AM by DaWatcher.

Options: ReplyQuote
Current Page: 742 of 743


Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.
This forum powered by Phorum.