Dear Truth Wins
Today I received a messaged from a devotee in India that listed 30 bad things that Tamal Krishna Swami did in his life time. Many unforgiveable things and how he hurt so many people. When I discussed it with a friend I realized that dwelling on another fallen soul and there bad behavior isn't going to help me or help those people I meet along the road of life.

That's why I will not spend anytime or energy in outing butler publicly.

We have over a million entries on this cult forum alone of credible and practical reasons to get as far as possible from this guru and his cult. It takes courage and bravery to stand up to religious cults and their leaders. Dwell on that.

I think I am visiting an offshoot sect of ISKCON but I am not sure, can anybody help? Did anyone experienced the same and can tell me what group it is and if my judgment is right?

Sorry for the text, maybe sombody has the patience to read it. I would happily appreciate it! :)

I moved to a new city and tried to hook up with people that also have an spiritual interest, meditate and maybe read Hindu and Buddhist scriptures. This city is not that big, so there are not many options. I went to a place that advertises itself simply as an meditation center. So I went there and understood that they do mantra chanting as meditation also the maha-mantra that I knew before. The maha mantra is not “owned” by ISCKON but it was my first association. I also met people from ISCKON where I lived before, but I was not attracted to go to any of their serious meetings or lectures. I have only very basic knowledge about ISCKON. In the center they also talk about bhakti yoga as a path to God and I didn't see anything wrong in that because I think bhakti is a beautiful path. So I thought I am just in a group of people interested in spiritual practice, though it seemed to me that many new people who where coming there but also steady people, didn't had any other meditational or spiritual practice before they went in this center. So I started to talk to one man who was in the organisation group there and he asked me about my spiritual practice and I told him that I did Tibetan Buddhism meditation for years and that I am interested in Advaita Vedanta and Kashmir Shaivism. His reaction, even if he didn't show it so strongly, seemed very hostile to me. He started to throw with arguments why non-duality is wrong and that Advaitins think they are Gods themselves, so they are megalomaniac.Then later I sent him a link of what I enjoy to read and he answered he does not want to offend me but he thinks he is on the path of greater happines. This seemed weird to me - if there is greater or less greater happiness in spirituality, why shall I engaged in finding god at all? Then I can climb any other ladder in society and feel the same way - superior or inferior towards others. This attitude didn't make any sense to me. But I love chanting the holy names, so I just go there to have a nice time. Since then though he behaves very rejective towards me when I come to the center to chant. I made friends with another man there who is also in the group and if I tried to talk to him about my practice I also sensed some irritation from him especially when it comes to the topic about personal and impersonal god and when I try to talk about the Upanishads and other scriptures apart from the Bhagavad Gita. They also invited me several times to come to their philosophy lectures but I refused so far. I just went to some introduction lectures, but not more than that. Just questions about the Vedas in general, that are not Krishna-related are always refused or answered with a weird feeling that is underlying. After a while he invited me to his place. The organisatoral people of this center live all in the same area or the same house together. All of their homes I have been so far are pinned with pictures of Krishna and Radha. Then I saw a picture of Bhaktivedanta Swami and another picture of some older man I have never seen before. So because of Bhaktivedanta I thought that this must be an ISCKON group. Later on the man sent me a mantra video and this video was released by an organisation called Science of Identity foundation. I researched who the man behind this organisation was and recognized the guy whose pictures are pinned in the house of the meditation center people. So when they chant in the house they use long mantras with the names of their spiritual masters (Bhaktivedanta and Jagad guru siddhaswarupananda) and the - -Bhagavad Gita as it is- was laying around there everywhere. They don't sing this mantras in the center and they are also not open in their introduction lectures about the master they worship to, the kind of Gita they read and so on. They say they are just friends who love Krishna but to me they seem very sectarian and very one-minded about the Vedas. It feels also that nobody else is interested to bond or deeper interact with me there, also not this one specific woman, who is seen as some kind of authority in the group when it comes to questions about the scriptures. I am slightly getting the feeling that the man I am friends with is set on "dealing" with me. But it all seems so subtle and weird, this is why I am not sure. Before this experience I only read the Bhagavad-Gita with commentary from Adi Shankara and Paramahansa Yogananda. I also know some things about secterian and scholaric arguments of dvaita, advaita and other schools and the arguments between Vaishnavism follower or Shaivism follower. It is also reasonable that some Bhkati followers fear an attack on Bhagavan by Advaita. But as I understood from my own practice and the scriptures the heritage of the Vedas is spiritual not religious, and I met many people who agree with this. It belongs to all of us and nobody, no master or deity, is superior. I also think to understood that karma, bhkati and jnana is equally important. Bhakti is suggested as the easiest path for our age but it does not dismiss the other paths. When I read - Bhagavad-Gita as it is-for the first time some weeks ago I felt terrible. The whole language that is used there seemed very hostile to me and antagonistic. On top of that it reminded me a lot of the Bible. I am not a scholar just a simple practioner and I know how honored Bhaktivedanta Swami is but this commentaries just felt wrong. The introduction was so obsessed with proofing to the reader that this is the best commentary, very triumphalistic, self-righteous and arrogant. This appared, unusual to me, because usually scholars try to argue with pure logic, and not personal offense or even insult. Somehow felt inappropriate and clumsy. I could not sense any spiritual knowledge or experience in the words and the way it was written. This is maybe harsh to say of me cus I am young and quite a small light in my studies of the scriptures. But one thing why I enjoy reading the vedic scriptures is the pure experiences of godly presence in them. When you read some of the Upanishads for example, also the Puranas, even the hymns of Shankara or the biographies of other great saints and teachers and you are devoted and receptive to the knowledge you cannot not experience it. In the -Bhagavad Gita as it is- there was no spark of that for me, more the opposite, it felt dogmatic and antagonistic.On the website of the american master of this group is also very visible, that he tries with many statements to stress storngly to be non-secterian and legitimite. This gives an suspicious impression. Many people in this group are educated and intelligent but I do not understand why they don't ask the right questions there. Maybe because most of them haven't read anything else before. I won't go to the center anymore but I like this man who I made friends with there and I would like to talk to him about this but how? Maybe I am judging this people too fast but I just feel a very awkward dogmatic vibe there and maybe somebody can tell me what kind of group this is and if they are a sect and how I can talk to them? And if sb experienced something similiar? And last statment: I am not attacking any organisation or person here, I don't feel I am in the position to do so - I just talk about an subjective experience and I am aware of that. Any mistakes, also scholarly or fact-based, shall be forgiven in this - I am not trying to be mean or omniscient. Thank you.

Hi Frozen Nick

I just stumbled upon your message

From what you describe you have been visiting one of Chris Butler's centers. All the people on this blog have been emotionally traumatized by Chris Butler and his group. I commend you for your investigation into spiritual matters. You have made the right assessment, get away from these people they are spiritual death.

Good luck Dudley

Hi,

Frozen Nick91 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So I started to talk to one man who was in
> the organisation group there and he asked me about
> my spiritual practice and I told him that I did
> Tibetan Buddhism meditation for years and that I
> am interested in Advaita Vedanta and Kashmir
> Shaivism. His reaction, even if he didn't show it
> so strongly, seemed very hostile to me. He started
> to throw with arguments why non-duality is wrong
> and that Advaitins think they are Gods themselves,
> so they are megalomaniac.

SIF teaching activists have been known to try to impose control. The group is isolationist, also from other Vaisnava groups. It is forbidden to read books other than those accepted in the group. Additionally, during recruitment, activists during discussions on the Internet reject elements of the scriptures that they accept and use in teaching. The reason may be their poor education or recruitment tactics - not to raise controversial aspects, lie, which in turn will force them to try to withdraw. At the same time, they teach the elements of hatha-yoga or yoga-nidra.

> Then I can climb any other ladder in
> society and feel the same way - superior or
> inferior towards others. This attitude didn't make
> any sense to me.

Ironic, isn't it? Learning to love. Supposedly, according to Sri Caitanya, even a sudra or a candala can become Vaisnava, not to say that all of us are spirit, but after being bombarded with love, the new lamb will learn that there is a hierarchy in the group. Companions of the Guru, initiated serious, frivolous, sympathizers, etc. A separate respectable category are comets, which from time to time give a lot of money. They will be covered with a kind of adoration that a hard-working sheep will never deserve.

Generally, as I wrote before - poor understanding of the istha and adhikari doctrines. Or simply materialism and classical valuation, motorization of the psyche, etc. Hierarchy in the group. All children in brahmacari school are supposed to be equal, but it turns out that the Guru's son is treated better than the Filipino or American children and Poles are worse than American. The sweetness of the sect illusion. Worth sending a child thousands of kilometers from home and parents.


> But I love chanting the holy
> names, so I just go there to have a nice time.


Ordinary working sheep are nice and do a lot of good like feeding the homeless etc.

> personal and impersonal god and when I try to talk
> about the Upanishads and other scriptures apart
> from the Bhagavad Gita.

In my time, the only publication that went beyond the canon of A.C. The Bhaktivedanta Swami that was issued or accepted in SIF was "Harinama Cintamani". There was never any mention of Jaiva Dharma or Ujvala-Nilamani etc.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/31/2021 04:47AM by DaWatcher.

Hi guys thank you for your answers, it helps me to know that my gut feeling was right about this group of people.

Earlier in this blog somebody postet the webpage of a Butler group in Canada. This page looks absolutely the same as the one from the group I am talking of. It is an innocent page that does not reveal any connection to the true roots of those who are representing it. I think it is impudent that they entice other people with just some innocent meditation and health/lifestyle promises while they are in reality representing the sect of a sect of a sect. A tiny idiological branch, dedicated to an uneducated and dull psychopath, with a very narrow approach to the Vedas. On top of that they advertise themselves as being highly educated in the Vedas and Yoga while they are accepting only 5% of the scriptures as a a topic to talk about. This is impudent too! They are so blinded and triumphalistic - are they not scared sb who actually really knows about Santana Dharma and the Vedas can ask questions and make them look old? It makes me angry that they pretend to western, unexperienced people that they know the Vedas and Hindu philosophy by reducing it to very little of what it is. No holistic approach - but this is what you need to understand the scriptures! This is not just some modernist project. You can't just throw 90% in the bin. This misinformation makes me angry and takes away the whole potential of what the Vedas could actually provide to human beings in the West! And people who are traumatised or threatened by this groups are often not willing anymore to engage in any kind of wisdom that is provided by the Vedas. This truly makes me sad. And I got very confused and angry to read 'Aham brahmasmi' on the Canadian page at the bottom. This mantra from the Upanishads is used a lot in the Advaita tradition, a tradition that as I now understood, is not accepted at all in Butlers group. Swami Bhaktivedanta even called Adi Shankaracharaya a rascal and demon. Basically - they throw everything around in this groups without knowing it's actual meaning and origin. Just to pretend they are holding some truth they do not at all. The country I am living in has a national page that is listing all the religious groups and sects that exist in the country. The government is very responsible in this and tries to protect people against fundamentalistic or radical ideas. The Butler group is not listed there because they pretend to be some meditation lifestyle center. It is really crazy.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 08/05/2021 05:44PM by Frozen Nick91.

Frozen Nick wrote:

"...they entice other people with just some innocent meditation and health/lifestyle promises while they are in reality representing the sect of a sect of a sect. A tiny idiological branch, dedicated to an uneducated and dull psychopath, with a very narrow approach to the Vedas.

"On top of that they advertise themselves as being highly educated in the Vedas and Yoga while they are accepting only 5% of the scriptures as a a topic to talk about."

What Frozen Nick has given us could be used as a classroom lesson. A lesson and an example on the importance of doing a background check on any of those free meditation/yoga events.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/05/2021 08:02PM by corboy.

An look at this:

[www.facebook.com]

"Different Vibe" - translation of the name of the project. I suspect the project of Madhava dasi & Sheeps. Overall, Madhava dasi's book was good, the author herself also dealt with Buddhist bowls, etc. You come to brainwash, you feel sick, clink into a bowl and it's better now.

The writing on the screen reads "Vedas. Answers to all questions." "Meditation - rest for body and soul".

Half of that brand promise is untrue.

There were lecture paper cards for the tricky questions. Why are there lecture cards - so Grandpa Midget, Papa The Dolphin, doesn't have to answer tricky questions. Write your questions on paper and we will pass them on to Papa The Dolphin. But Papa The Dolphin will throw half of it in the trash.

And to the question - "Who crossed Kasia Socha before suicide and with what leader did she travel around Poland" - silence. F**cking silence.

"Meditation - rest for body and soul". It's a good deal. Free cult work can be exhausting for the body, night work, and constant resentment and humiliation can be devastating to the soul.

@DaWatcher, thank you for this facebook link, I cannot believe how ridiculous it is. Some modern hippie lifestyle marketing, they really are in need to convince it seems.

I just browsed through this forum here and watched a YouTube interview with IanKoviak, so I could generate a better idea what SIF is doing and who C. Butler is.
As the past has shown many times through other religious groups and other people: A loud and intense rejection of any subject or phanomena reveals often the opposite, namely an obsession with the subject. People who are against Sex and Lust in a very loud way are often obsessed with it. Why do fundamentalistic Muslims put Burkas on 8,9 year old children? Because they are so obsessed with Sex that they sexualise a child's body under the wrong signboard: Other men should not see the hair and 'curves' of my 8 year old daughter. If people are protesting very loud against material life and escape in a remote ascetic life then it means often that they are not ready to realise that they are actually obsessed with materialism. When you read about ISCKON and C. Butler and all the controversies around it, it makes totally sense. If you try to put rules of ascetism on yourself like a monkey without having the spiritual maturity to actually stand happily in your decision of ascetism it will backfire and you become mentally sick or you attract mentally sick people. And then you are busy with hiding your dirty linen and everything goes down the drain. Just the fact that ISCKON and Butler created so many controversies and were always so careful to control what goes out publically about them, reveals that inside there is something rottening that is getting more and more out of control. A sincere person does not has to hide or to control, even if he or she does things that are not pleasant to everyone else all the time. Because who can? Even a Saint cannot. There was no person ever born that was loved by everyone, not even Jesus or anybody else.
Just shows how insincere ISCKON and Butler are.
Another ridicuility: C. Butler gave himself at least two very important and great Hindu titles "Jagad" and "Paramahamsa". Even real masters through history would have at least one of those titles but seldomly or actually never two or more. It reveals the megalomaniac attitude of his character and the false authenticity. He is not just Superman, he is Super hyper mega great super man. Ouff. How can anyone with common sense fall for that. But yeah common sense gets lost when you are deeply engaged in a group like that.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 08/06/2021 04:41AM by Frozen Nick91.

Bingo- thank you, Frozen Nick-

Quote:
"Just shows how insincere ISCKON and Butler are.
Another ridicuility: C. Butler gave himself at least two very important and great Hindu titles "Jagad" and "Paramahamsa". Even real masters through history would have at least one of those titles but seldomly or actually never two or more. It reveals the megalomaniac attitude of his character and the false authenticity. He is not just Superman, he is Super hyper mega great super man. Ouff. How can anyone with common sense fall for that. But yeah common sense gets lost when you are deeply engaged in a group CULT like that." End quote.