Hi IanKoviak, Dudley

Thank you for your posts. I will deal with them in more detail in little later, I think tonight. I am able to understand IanKoviak's feelings to a large extent. I associate it with a song and a music video, to which I also had an attraction and identified myself with it:

Mein Herz Brennt (My heart burns)

I quickly post an important quote about the methods that Bona Fide Guru should traditionally use:

Srila Bhakti Vijnana Bharati Gosvami Maharaja

"Guru [bona fide spiritual teacher] maintains a disciple in two ways: through affection and through chastisement (lalana and tadana). Lalana means giving affection and tadana means to discipline or chastise, which is another aspect of affection. If it is one-sided [only giving affection but not chastising], then the affection is not complete - it will only be 50%. When there is only affection, but not chastisement, then in such a case, the affection cannot be deemed complete. So guru will offer both, he will discipline as well as give affection."

(excerpt spoken in Jan. 2014)


In the case of the Tapas dasa school - there was neither Guru nor affection (lalana) there. Tadana (chastizement) had mistakes. Well, apart from sound lectures and the effects of chanting the Holy Name. It is hard to expect good fruit.

Or like in Poland - "devotee factory", something like Amway, some elements mixed with...fascism. In the early stages led by feminizing women leaders, whose vision of sangha is rather a hierarchical structure with an idol rather than a Guru (and a local idol), and therefore not a sanga but a party, i.e. with subtle elements of fascism. "Spirituellen konzentrazion lager".
Of course now is much better. But the victims of those early days...



Edited 6 time(s). Last edit at 12/13/2019 10:32PM by DaWatcher.

I've learned it is useless to discuss or argue with religious believers. To each their own. We are all on our own journey.

IanKoviak Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I've written on this forum extensively about my
> time in the School, my memories and the things I
> know for a fact happened. I am an open book about
> it and happy to discuss and talk about it all.

I hope you can tell you some more details.


IanKoviak Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Butler's son, Siddha was treated with special attention as were Tapasya Das' son and nephew.


What were these forms of better treatment? Was it the initiative of Tapas das, teachers or the verbalized request of Siddhaswarupananda?


IanKoviak Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> had no access to counselors and proper guidance.
> Younger boys were abused and bullied by their
> peers and old boys.


How common were these abuses? Every week Every day?

What did the medical support issues look like, e.g. dental treatments? What about insurance for children at school?


IanKoviak Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> We are under constant stress and fear of judgment.

Did you write letters to your parents? What were the parents' reactions?


IanKoviak Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> We woke at 4am after only 5-7 hours of rest and
> took cold bucket showers, chanted in dark temple
> rooms, had moldy clothing, bad food and half-ass
> education based on hindu mythology about half-man
> half lion and pig avatars.

Did you sleep uncovered on a cold floor? Who cooked meals? Did you have symptoms of permanent loss of health, e.g. lost teeth, hair, etc.?


IanKoviak Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> We were told these
> stories of complete fiction were unequivocal truth
> and were lead to believe they were literal and
> true historical events. We had zero education
> about other world religions and mythology from
> other world cultures. It was not till years later
> that I was able to finally study and see the
> origins of various hindu deities and the evolution
> of the Bhakti cult in India and put two and two
> together to understand that these stories were
> metaphorical ideas about the human psyche and
> various hodgepodge philosophic theories of the
> east.


Yes, I understand. In my case, I came across SIF Poland having already thoroughly studied in elementary and high school. And upbringing in a Catholic family, both parents avant-garde academic education. Religious parents, non-fanatic with understanding far beyond Catholic dogmas and without too much attachment to symbolism, liturgy. At the same time, I went beyond religious dogmatism very quickly, so I had more protection at SIF Poland.


IanKoviak Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Butler was the focal personality of worship,
> surrender and emulation. We stared at pictures of
> the youthful butler on the Alter

Have you been presented with photos of the aging Siddhaswarupananda?


IanKoviak Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> every day and
> were told to distribute his books, often in
> vulnerable places like cemeteries and poor barrios
> and downtrodden neighborhoods where uneducated
> people were more likely to be influenced. It also
> helped that were were a bunch of white kids.

What language did you teach and sell publications? Have you learned the Filipino language? What were the reactions of people?

IanKoviak Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Most parents were asked to send about $200/month
> to cover our care.

Did you have pocket money for small expenses? Did you have free time for entertainment or small shopping outside of school? Independently?


IanKoviak Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> We had zero access to parental
> comfort or care. Our parents were left join the
> west to become full-time servants of
> Butler—starting businesses for him, managing
> businesses, opening preaching centers and being
> his person servants: Cooking for him and his wife,
> folding his underwear, massaging him, putting
> tinfoil walls and air filtration systems
> throughout his house and abiding by his many
> neurotic kitchen and personal care rules. Some of
> these rules were as narcissistic as to ask
> devotees to pay Butler money if they accidentally
> left a dirty spoon in the dishwasher or some such
> bullshit.

Was he also massaged by women? And if so, were they also devotees?

IanKoviak Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Butler publicly shames his own disciples regularly
> and letters or lecture tapes were sent to all his
> disciples worldwide wherein he cursed and sweared
> at his personal servants or other devotees for
> things like seeking out a husband, not having
> mangoes available or storing his lecture tapes
> improperly and so forth. It ranged from silly
> things to downright absurd and neurotic. Devotees
> lived in shame, fear and guilt.


Yes, I confirm, there were several such lectures dealing with personal issues in public. However, I don't know how big the filter was. Most of the lectures did not arouse controversy.

IanKoviak Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Butler approved certain devotees as "pure". They
> included, of course, his own wife (which he
> apparently gave up sanyas so he can "preach to
> woman" which has no scriptural source at all),
> Tusta Krishna das and Katyayani Devi Dasi. Mike
> Gabbard AKA Krishna Katha was considered a high
> ranking devotee and we were always told who to
> vote for and so forth (eroding the very meaning of
> democracy).

Yes i confirm In Poland, there were also symptoms of creating a vision that true pure devotees were only "on-site". Somehow because of physical proximity, destiny, etc.


IanKoviak Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Toenails of Butler, hair clippings or sand he
> walked on were regularly distributed as "Maha
> prasadam" which was eaten by devotees.

Are there any other such biological materials available? Also derived from Siddha Bellord?


IanKoviak Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> There was constantly scandals throughout the
> mission. Instead of solving these things in a
> rational and respectful manner, Butler often
> exploded with anger and smashed everyone who was
> involved. There was no leading with love and
> mindful attention to how people may be affected.

This is the mechanism. There could be no success.


IanKoviak Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Millions of dollars were funneled for assorted
> projects of Butler's (many of which failed or
> never came to fruition) or just to maintain his
> elaborate care. There are countless letters were
> Butler is angry and critical of his Devotees for
> messing up some small part of his care. These were
> devotees with real jobs and kids to care for who
> were doing their best to be his person servants.


My personal feeling in Poland at some point was that letters could be written by another person. Can you confirm that some of the letters were not written by Siddhaswarupananda?


IanKoviak Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Information about Butlers based was often secret
> or we were told some sort of fantastical stories
> about Butler having achieved brhaman realization
> while he was a 17 year old LSD hippie in Hawaii.
> We were told silly stories about Butlers flesh
> burning at the base of his spine as he raised his
> Kundalini energy along his spinal column. We were
> told tales of Butler surrendering his large group
> of followers to Swami Prabhupada like some sort of
> tale from Chaitanya Charitamrita of Mayavadis
> surrending their followers to Mahaprabhu. It's
> comical now in retrospect, but we were kids and
> ate this shit up like ice cream on a hot summer
> day.

From my point of view, there were important points in the biography such as: attaining nirvakalpa samadhi, mystic yoga school teacher or individual approach to students. Materials on the web undermine each of them.

IanKoviak Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> As Butler devotees we had no exposure to the
> deeper traditions of the Vaishnava faith. We were
> not allowed to visit India or any of the
> pilgrimage spots, did not wear tilak or tradition
> vaishnava dress, neck beads, sika, dhotis and
> saris or even play instruments like mrdanga,
> supposedly dear to the founder of the Bhakti
> movement, Chaitanya.

This is surprising. In Poland there were drums in the centers, neck beads, people painted tilak while there was no wearing traditional Indian costumes. People in Poland at SIF did not have a special attraction to Hindu folklore, such as ISKCON.



IanKoviak Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Believe what you want, but I don't feel any of the
> above has a place in modern hindu thought as
> literal and historic factual events. They are
> parables and symbolic tales at best and simple
> village stories in most cases. They have no place
> in a serious study and perusal of a spiritual
> practice regardless if they are of the Bhakti ilk
> or Jnana or Karma yoga variety.

From my point of view, various Indian philosophical or scientific schools have value. For example, learning about three modes of material nature. However, you can appreciate them after thorough study of mathematics, system dynamics, physics, psychology (e.g. Jung), reductionist analytics, etc. Of course, in depth and not as pseudo-eastern nonsense. For example, reductionism in the Bhagavad Gita is of scientific value.

IanKoviak Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Kids should not
> spend their childhood being fed this stuff or told
> to worship any guru unless it's in a more generic
> traditional guru/priest approach. A child should
> be allowed to play, be with their parents, have
> girls and boys as friends and learn contemporary
> academic courses, learn about world religions and
> cross-cultural mythology and eventually, as
> adults, find a spiritual guide on their own.


I agree completely. Freedom of choice regarding religion, value system etc.

I am able to imagine your burden of these experiences if it was an experience since childhood and not some stage in my life.

In my case, the controversial experience at SIF Poland, both inspirational and devastating, forced me to develop independent analytics.

Have SIF leaders ever tried to contact you to determine any form of redress? Were there symptoms of understanding your experiences at this school? Has there been any initiative in this direction?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/14/2019 08:28AM by DaWatcher.

Dudley Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Is the Srimad Bhagavatam of benefit to todays
> society?
> Dear Ian
> Thank you for you clear description of the PI boys
> school, hopefully this will help others to be
> wary.
>

My experience is definitely different than IanKoviak's.

The issues of independent living from matter were the subject of my reflection already at the age of 6, including on the example of caterpillar and butterfly. Catholic dogmas quickly turned out to be insufficient. At the age of 10 I was convinced that the psychology of priests was temporal and phenomenal and lacked transcendence. At the age of 14 I finally rejected my fear and feeling of enslavement by the religion in which I was born or raised. Bhagavad Gita was therefore a very positive surprise as well as the teachings of A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami. As well as the teachings of Buddha, while I have kept a strong appreciation of science. True and science must go hand in hand. Because it's reality.

Therefore, when it comes to Srimad Bhagavatam, I am open to admit that they may have translation errors or that they were addressed to recipients with specific scientific knowledge or mentality. I mean symbolism or reductionism etc. Therefore, in different religions I see elements such as universal moral values, social orders, etc.

However, I had the following experience at SIF Poland. The more I read Bhagavad Gita, the better I felt. The more I succumbed to group instruction trends, the worse I felt.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/14/2019 08:42AM by DaWatcher.

Hi Ian

thanks for your response. I hear what your saying.

My motivation in posting on CEI is to warn others of Butler and his lieutenants. I don't hold any bitterness against any person who follows him, once I was a follower too.

I hope there is room here for both believers and non believers,in a united effort (from a number of angles) against a truely disgusting person.

sincerely Dudley

Thank you Ian, no truer words have ever been spoken (written):

"Butler, as a guru, has no business in pursuing business ventures and so forth. A true vaishnva lives simply and humbly and does not involve themselves in money ventures, complex marital arrangements (like marrying your own disciple who already has kids of her own) and politics. This man is a charlatan and fraud of the highest order. He is a hypochondriac narcissist germaphobe. He is a clown. A sad sad clown."

I would hope people really look deep into this catastrophe known as the Tulsi/Butler circus campaign.
Make no mistake, Tulsi is a pawn, an obedient devotee that has fully surrendered to the creature Butler. She and Butler have no place on the campaign trail.
All you need to know has been written on the Cult Forum web site. "They (trolls, devbots, Tulsi fans) are calling this as lies, but it is not. Four decades of deception must come to an end. Remember, it is Butler who wants control of the White House. And he will do anything to get it.

NARCISSIST, SOCIOPATH, OR PSYCHOPATH?: HOW TO RECOGNIZE THE DISTINCTIONS [www.youtube.com]

Today I had a unsettling experience. I saw a couple violently arguing in the street, they were both screaming uncontrolably, oblivious to others around them. It was very disturbing and sad.

I thought of Butler's behaviour. If things don't go his way he can fly off the handle and scream like a mental case. Calling people fucking cunts. He goes out of control like a mad man. A pure devotee? you must me kidding.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/14/2019 07:01PM by Dudley.

Hello Dudley,

Dudley Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>If a person comes along and says this is not your real home there is another >eternal universe. What do you think people will say? “That sounds interesting
> tell me more, or that’s bullshit you’re a lunatic”. There is bound to be
> disagreement.

What can be written positively is the book "Who are you" highlights important scientific aspects related to finding out the sources of life etc. The second law of thermodynamics in connection with information theory and the fact that the number of bits in one cell of the body is greater than the atoms in the visible Universe. I believe that actually seeking truth requires respect for both science and ancient sources of information such as Bhagavatam. There is too much fraud, so verification is essential today.

For example, confirmation for Ayurveda can be found in the theory of control / regulation of multidimensional systems, etc. It is possible and in terms of human civilization to throw Earth out of orbit given the synchronization mechanisms in the solar system etc. Mythology has been adapted to the minds of some times.

>ACBS always said you should start from the Gita then progress to the Srimad >Bhagavatam Canto 1, never jump to Canto 10

That was the recommendation

> You should never had been forced to read Srimad Bhagavatam or chant, only
> fanatics think that you can force someone to love God.

That's horrible. Spiritual live and love is freedom.

> I don't hold any
> bitterness against any person who follows him,
> once I was a follower too.

Most of people here were followers.

> I hope there is room here for both believers and
> non believers,in a united effort (from a number of
> angles) against a truely disgusting person.

Freedom of choice. Believer on non-believer.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/14/2019 07:49PM by DaWatcher.

Hi Dudley- these words:

Quote "Today I had a unsettling experience. I saw a couple violently arguing in the street, they were both screaming uncontrolably, oblivious to others around them. It was very disturbing and sad.

I thought of Butler's behaviour. If things don't go his way he can fly off the handle and scream like a mental case. Calling people fucking cunts. He goes out of control like a mad man. A pure devotee? you must me kidding." End quote.

The creature Butler flew off the handle on many many occasions: making his devoted "servants" wear paper bags over their heads, banishing them from on site which means they had to go sleep in their cars or maybe under a tree, making them pay exorbitant fees if they violated a single little rule of his, cursing screaming, that was the order of the day. Now, imagine this creature in the White House? That is the horror we look at when we see Tulsi on the campaign trail. These are not lies, countless people witnessed his cruelty and viciousness towards his devbots. Why all the denial? It HAPPENED and may still be happening. Some of these lectures were taped and recorded- they are out there. A pure devotee no - a demented demon, yes. But here is the worst part- monkey see, monkey do! What occurred was some men in the group who had been told umpteen times in the lectures and the subliminal tapes Butler insisted everyone listen to, day and night including the children, began to act like their leader. This meant that the women and children were lower on the pecking order and received some of the same treatment by their partners/parents. This was pure and simple emotional & mental abuse heaped upon the least able to defend themselves. The women were brainwashed to believe that they were lesser beings than their husbands and that only if they served their husbands could they attain a better spiritual life. Children were equally mistreated, we have written about this on the forum.
Partly to blame were the lectures AC Bhaktivedanta who insisted that women were lesser beings mainly due to their brains being smaller than a man's!! Therefore men were superior to women. Misogyny ruled in this cult, no question.

I repeat again, be wary of who you chose for a "Teacher".
To further emphasize what AC Bhaktivedanta lectured on regarding the low place of women and children, the cult of Butler was not alone in its misogyny. This is what Butler adhered to as well- and you know that AC Bhaktivedanta was HIS teacher.


SOURCE - [harekrishnacultexposed.blogspot.com]