Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by:
dharmabum
()
Date: March 26, 2016 11:13AM
VoxVeritasVita Das Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Back in the early 80’s I used to ask the
> devotees why we all didn’t go to
> the other Krishna temples in Honolulu and on the
> mainland.
> They all looked shocked when I suggested this and
> told me that “We are not allowed to associate
> with ISKCON in any way." That ISKCON was corrupt
> and only "Srila Prabupad" knew the true path of
> the Vaishnava.
Haha, with Tulsi it's allowed. What a hypocrite.
[iskconnews.org]
I've yet to see her in Pride Parade to back up her claim as pro-gay.
-------------------------------------------------------
> Back in the early 80’s I used to ask the
> devotees why we all didn’t go to
> the other Krishna temples in Honolulu and on the
> mainland.
> They all looked shocked when I suggested this and
> told me that “We are not allowed to associate
> with ISKCON in any way." That ISKCON was corrupt
> and only "Srila Prabupad" knew the true path of
> the Vaishnava.
Haha, with Tulsi it's allowed. What a hypocrite.
[iskconnews.org]
I've yet to see her in Pride Parade to back up her claim as pro-gay.
Dream On Aloha - An Open Letter from the “Other People”
Posted by:
Vera City
()
Date: March 27, 2016 01:42AM
Dream On Aloha - An Open Letter from the “Other People”
In The Public Interest
It is in the public interest to know and understand how the Science of Identity cult operates as a High Demand Closed Group (HDCG) or cult. The public face of Butler and his followers does not match up with the private faces and practices, which are not always in the public interest.
Before You Were Even Born
As a member of this cult (and I am using this term pejoratively), Aloha girl may or may not be privy to much of the negative history, lies, and damages propagated by her group. She may be part of the younger generation who has been so isolated and indoctrinated within this cult, that they are not capable of seeing anything outside of the cult bias. Many of this generation have had no access to Butler’s evolution before he enclosed himself within his aluminum foil cage.
Butler followers are told what to read or not read, with whom to associate and not associate. Living in this highly controlled atmosphere, people go along with everyone else. For example, if a person is not fundamentally homophobic, they go along with the group. The same thing happened in the Soviet Union. It is basic psychology. But psychology and science are looked down upon in the Butler group. The children are not raised with the tools of critical thinking nor exposed to diverse ideas.
First Hand Accounts and Primary Historical Sources
The things reported here on the CEI forum are not gossip and lies to instill fear in others. They are first hand accounts by real people who have suffered great harm in the very same cult Aloha girl defends. These stories are backed up by primary historical documents and irrefutable research data. Ex followers often discovered or witnessed many things from which the younger generation has been insulated. Exers once believed, as Aloha girl does, and were pained and shocked to have found out that the man they once worshiped was not what he claimed to be. This has nothing to do with religion or religious freedom. This has to do with fraud.
If Aloha girl is related to David Muncie (Tusta Krishna Das), he is actually the ghost writer of Butler’s books because old Chris can’t write. When the blindly loyal Muncie saw Butler’s isolation weaken his recruiting capabilities, he encouraged him to join forces with other gurus and form the World Vaishnava Association (WVA). When Vaishnava gurus from India saw the vacuum left after Bhaktivedanta’s death, they began to pull Butler followers away with their superior knowledge of the scriptures and authentic religious practices. It was Muncie who facilitated a truce and essentially brokered a power share. Prior to that, Butler was claiming to be the only Jagad Guru Prabhupad in the disciplic succession from Chaitanya. This was off-putting with the other gurus.
Victim-hood Status as Political Currency
While I have no doubt of Aloha girl’s sincerity; she really believes what she has written. Her “cry-bully” tactics while squealing victim-hood is simply a long infomercial for the cult. Nothing could be more cynical than using a dying young mother to do the cult’s bidding.
I suggest that the Aloha girl’s recent posts have not been written solely by Katie, but are a propaganda piece for Tulsi Gabbard and Sai Hansen’s defense team. No follower is allowed to mention Butler online without his full approval. Raising yourselves up to victimhood status by using stupid terms like “Hinduphobia” is a cynical political tactic.
Tulsi’s “Hinduism” has tremendous political purchase in the media to either invoke an injured party or enjoy publicity and campaign financing. Previously, cult members Wayne Nishiki, Rick Reed, and Mike Gabbard hid and lied about their affiliation with Butler for political gain. Now they flaunt it.
Aloha girl plays the victim card for her group when historically they have bred a profound hostility towards gays and outsiders. This is not gossip. This is well documented.
Children in the Butler cult are raised with a tremendous set of prejudices. They are told that meat eaters are demons incapable of spiritual advancement, that “karmis” (anyone not in their group) are not friendship-worthy, that gays deserve to die of Aids, that it is okay to slander and shun family members who do not believe as they do. Maybe they are not yet killing people for apostasy, but cult members have sent death threats to people who have spoken out against their leader.
Rama’s reports about physical and emotional neglect, quarantines, shunning, unreasonable fines and tithes, homophobia, separating families to “break their attachment”, non-disclosure agreements (on pain of spiritual death), verbal abuse, is the truth and corroborated by many ex followers.
Where is your compassion for the victims of your own cult? Maybe it is uncomfortable to read accounts of abuses from former members of your cult. You say they are lies. You say they are failed disciples that did not recognize guru's mercy. You feel no compassion for their hurt. But consider the possibility that their testimony may not be in your purview because Butler has succeeded in keeping you out of touch with reality. What if the situation were reversed? What if Sri Shim ran over Butler? How would you respond? Yeah, I thought so.
Now who is the real bigot!?
Adopting the Pathology of Guru
Aloha girl suffers a disparity between the real and the dream. Most people are really not racist or bigoted. People go along with it like the Winkie Guards and Flying Monkeys in the Wizard of Oz. As long as the witch was alive, they followed her social cues. This “preferential cascade” also happened in the Soviet Union. In the same way Butler followers went along with homophobia, fear of outsiders and homosexuals, anti-war and then pro-war, mocking Christianity and then adopting Christianity, right wing politics and now left wing politics. Aloha girl makes excuses for her group while in reality, it is inherently hostile to all other cultures and people. They come to “save” them, not harmonize with them.
The guru's pursuit of purity and phobia of germs affects the mentality of the cult participants. Because they are purists, they can not fathom a world of flawed people being able to do great things, speaking the truth, meat eaters full of wisdom and mercy, and people getting along with all their differences. Unless they are on the elite strata of the cult, they live in constant fear and feeling that they will never be good enough. It is easy to demonize those that are critical of your guru.
You Wonder Why People are Angry?
People are mad at the way followers have treated the locals for years. They are mad that you lie and cover up your real beliefs and connections to Butler. They are mad that your fake guru Butler is living tax free, essentially stealing hard earned dollars.
You complain about prejudicial remarks on a Facebook page while among yourselves you spew hate for “karmis” and “gays” and “meat heads” between your teeth. People are angry at your own bigotry. While you claim they are targeting you for your religion, you fail to look at your own non-religious behaviors and sense of superiority.
No one is condemning all “Vaishnava Hindus” because of the boating accident. What they are condemning is the very possible cover up and sloppy investigation because of cult affiliations in high places.
Making excuses for Butler prevents us from fighting the real problems caused by this cult. You refuse to accept that the behaviors of followers have anything to do with Butler’s personal ideology and egotism. This arrogance has nothing to do with religion or Hinduism. You try to stop any efforts to expose the methods and motives of the cult by slandering the reporters. You make it difficult to create and change laws that would be in the best interest of the public if it conflicts with your guru’s agenda. You are complicit in doing harm and are not victims of "Hindu-phobia".
Problem with Butler’s Philosophy VS Religion
The structural problem with the Butler philosophy is that it diverges against mainstream Hinduism or even the close relative, Bengali Gaudiya Vaishnavism. It has an inherent bias based on the personal whims and pathologies of its self-proclaimed "divine" leader Chris Butler. Those of us who have observed or lived through your High Demand Closed Group (HDCG) are amused by the cultural appropriation of a Hindu culture to advance the political entertainments of your cult leader.
There are very serious problems with a culture where Butler has total control over your lives, is considered infallible, and demands complete secrecy and disavowal.
The point of civilization, the point of etiquette, and the point of the “aloha spirit” is to negotiate with other people to live with one another peacefully in spite of our prejudices and despite our differences. Aloha does not break up and destroy families because one son leaves your faith.
Because the Butler cult is a purist philosophy with a self-anointed infallible ruler, this is impossible. It is antithetical to aloha or democracy. With all your vegetarianism and chanting you have not even succeeded in stamping out your own bigotry.
The Butler ideology does not belong in our liberal, western democracy. When you have to lie to people and the press about how you really operate and what you really believe, it is at least disingenuous. At most it is dangerous. Aloha is authentic and compatible with both fishermen and vegetarians. Butler’s ideology is neither transparent, truthful, or honorable. When your SOI websites are without congruence with what you really teach to initiates, it fails as an authentic religion.
In The Public Interest
It is in the public interest to know and understand how the Science of Identity cult operates as a High Demand Closed Group (HDCG) or cult. The public face of Butler and his followers does not match up with the private faces and practices, which are not always in the public interest.
Before You Were Even Born
As a member of this cult (and I am using this term pejoratively), Aloha girl may or may not be privy to much of the negative history, lies, and damages propagated by her group. She may be part of the younger generation who has been so isolated and indoctrinated within this cult, that they are not capable of seeing anything outside of the cult bias. Many of this generation have had no access to Butler’s evolution before he enclosed himself within his aluminum foil cage.
Butler followers are told what to read or not read, with whom to associate and not associate. Living in this highly controlled atmosphere, people go along with everyone else. For example, if a person is not fundamentally homophobic, they go along with the group. The same thing happened in the Soviet Union. It is basic psychology. But psychology and science are looked down upon in the Butler group. The children are not raised with the tools of critical thinking nor exposed to diverse ideas.
First Hand Accounts and Primary Historical Sources
The things reported here on the CEI forum are not gossip and lies to instill fear in others. They are first hand accounts by real people who have suffered great harm in the very same cult Aloha girl defends. These stories are backed up by primary historical documents and irrefutable research data. Ex followers often discovered or witnessed many things from which the younger generation has been insulated. Exers once believed, as Aloha girl does, and were pained and shocked to have found out that the man they once worshiped was not what he claimed to be. This has nothing to do with religion or religious freedom. This has to do with fraud.
If Aloha girl is related to David Muncie (Tusta Krishna Das), he is actually the ghost writer of Butler’s books because old Chris can’t write. When the blindly loyal Muncie saw Butler’s isolation weaken his recruiting capabilities, he encouraged him to join forces with other gurus and form the World Vaishnava Association (WVA). When Vaishnava gurus from India saw the vacuum left after Bhaktivedanta’s death, they began to pull Butler followers away with their superior knowledge of the scriptures and authentic religious practices. It was Muncie who facilitated a truce and essentially brokered a power share. Prior to that, Butler was claiming to be the only Jagad Guru Prabhupad in the disciplic succession from Chaitanya. This was off-putting with the other gurus.
Victim-hood Status as Political Currency
While I have no doubt of Aloha girl’s sincerity; she really believes what she has written. Her “cry-bully” tactics while squealing victim-hood is simply a long infomercial for the cult. Nothing could be more cynical than using a dying young mother to do the cult’s bidding.
I suggest that the Aloha girl’s recent posts have not been written solely by Katie, but are a propaganda piece for Tulsi Gabbard and Sai Hansen’s defense team. No follower is allowed to mention Butler online without his full approval. Raising yourselves up to victimhood status by using stupid terms like “Hinduphobia” is a cynical political tactic.
Tulsi’s “Hinduism” has tremendous political purchase in the media to either invoke an injured party or enjoy publicity and campaign financing. Previously, cult members Wayne Nishiki, Rick Reed, and Mike Gabbard hid and lied about their affiliation with Butler for political gain. Now they flaunt it.
Aloha girl plays the victim card for her group when historically they have bred a profound hostility towards gays and outsiders. This is not gossip. This is well documented.
Children in the Butler cult are raised with a tremendous set of prejudices. They are told that meat eaters are demons incapable of spiritual advancement, that “karmis” (anyone not in their group) are not friendship-worthy, that gays deserve to die of Aids, that it is okay to slander and shun family members who do not believe as they do. Maybe they are not yet killing people for apostasy, but cult members have sent death threats to people who have spoken out against their leader.
Rama’s reports about physical and emotional neglect, quarantines, shunning, unreasonable fines and tithes, homophobia, separating families to “break their attachment”, non-disclosure agreements (on pain of spiritual death), verbal abuse, is the truth and corroborated by many ex followers.
Where is your compassion for the victims of your own cult? Maybe it is uncomfortable to read accounts of abuses from former members of your cult. You say they are lies. You say they are failed disciples that did not recognize guru's mercy. You feel no compassion for their hurt. But consider the possibility that their testimony may not be in your purview because Butler has succeeded in keeping you out of touch with reality. What if the situation were reversed? What if Sri Shim ran over Butler? How would you respond? Yeah, I thought so.
Now who is the real bigot!?
Adopting the Pathology of Guru
Aloha girl suffers a disparity between the real and the dream. Most people are really not racist or bigoted. People go along with it like the Winkie Guards and Flying Monkeys in the Wizard of Oz. As long as the witch was alive, they followed her social cues. This “preferential cascade” also happened in the Soviet Union. In the same way Butler followers went along with homophobia, fear of outsiders and homosexuals, anti-war and then pro-war, mocking Christianity and then adopting Christianity, right wing politics and now left wing politics. Aloha girl makes excuses for her group while in reality, it is inherently hostile to all other cultures and people. They come to “save” them, not harmonize with them.
The guru's pursuit of purity and phobia of germs affects the mentality of the cult participants. Because they are purists, they can not fathom a world of flawed people being able to do great things, speaking the truth, meat eaters full of wisdom and mercy, and people getting along with all their differences. Unless they are on the elite strata of the cult, they live in constant fear and feeling that they will never be good enough. It is easy to demonize those that are critical of your guru.
You Wonder Why People are Angry?
People are mad at the way followers have treated the locals for years. They are mad that you lie and cover up your real beliefs and connections to Butler. They are mad that your fake guru Butler is living tax free, essentially stealing hard earned dollars.
You complain about prejudicial remarks on a Facebook page while among yourselves you spew hate for “karmis” and “gays” and “meat heads” between your teeth. People are angry at your own bigotry. While you claim they are targeting you for your religion, you fail to look at your own non-religious behaviors and sense of superiority.
No one is condemning all “Vaishnava Hindus” because of the boating accident. What they are condemning is the very possible cover up and sloppy investigation because of cult affiliations in high places.
Making excuses for Butler prevents us from fighting the real problems caused by this cult. You refuse to accept that the behaviors of followers have anything to do with Butler’s personal ideology and egotism. This arrogance has nothing to do with religion or Hinduism. You try to stop any efforts to expose the methods and motives of the cult by slandering the reporters. You make it difficult to create and change laws that would be in the best interest of the public if it conflicts with your guru’s agenda. You are complicit in doing harm and are not victims of "Hindu-phobia".
Problem with Butler’s Philosophy VS Religion
The structural problem with the Butler philosophy is that it diverges against mainstream Hinduism or even the close relative, Bengali Gaudiya Vaishnavism. It has an inherent bias based on the personal whims and pathologies of its self-proclaimed "divine" leader Chris Butler. Those of us who have observed or lived through your High Demand Closed Group (HDCG) are amused by the cultural appropriation of a Hindu culture to advance the political entertainments of your cult leader.
There are very serious problems with a culture where Butler has total control over your lives, is considered infallible, and demands complete secrecy and disavowal.
The point of civilization, the point of etiquette, and the point of the “aloha spirit” is to negotiate with other people to live with one another peacefully in spite of our prejudices and despite our differences. Aloha does not break up and destroy families because one son leaves your faith.
Because the Butler cult is a purist philosophy with a self-anointed infallible ruler, this is impossible. It is antithetical to aloha or democracy. With all your vegetarianism and chanting you have not even succeeded in stamping out your own bigotry.
The Butler ideology does not belong in our liberal, western democracy. When you have to lie to people and the press about how you really operate and what you really believe, it is at least disingenuous. At most it is dangerous. Aloha is authentic and compatible with both fishermen and vegetarians. Butler’s ideology is neither transparent, truthful, or honorable. When your SOI websites are without congruence with what you really teach to initiates, it fails as an authentic religion.
Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by:
Vera City
()
Date: March 27, 2016 02:07AM
This has nothing to do with religion and there is nothing religious about this behavior.
This is not the behavior of a spiritual and compassionate woman. This is not the behavior of a mother. It is unbelievably cold.
In my community, questioning and arguing with the local Rabbi is expected. No one is excommunicated from an authentic religion for being critical of the leader. When this happens, when the leaders elevate themselves to some infallible divinity, then it is a cult. For more, see Ten warning signs of a potentially unsafe group/leader.
This is not how authentic religious communities operate.
To paraphrase one of the "Other People", no one is anti Hindu here, but we are all anti Asshole.
Quote
Rama regarding the dreaming of aloha blog:
The authors have access to my “cult dirt file”, which is pretty amazing, and I am proud of it. This is the epitome of the Chris Butler gang as a cult. This is a file that they have been steadily compiling on me since I first posted to the Cult Education Institute forum in 2006.
This blog entry contains multiple excerpts from personal e-mails that I have never published, sent between me and my parents in 2006 when I first posted a few posts about growing up in the group. My mother turned these over to the cult at some point and they are now being used against me just as in Scientology.
Quote
Rama regarding his posting of critical comments against Chris Butler
my mother wrote by e-mail “my obligation to you as a mother ended the moment you posted on that forum”.
This is not the behavior of a spiritual and compassionate woman. This is not the behavior of a mother. It is unbelievably cold.
In my community, questioning and arguing with the local Rabbi is expected. No one is excommunicated from an authentic religion for being critical of the leader. When this happens, when the leaders elevate themselves to some infallible divinity, then it is a cult. For more, see Ten warning signs of a potentially unsafe group/leader.
Quote
Rama on the Cult Intelligence Agency
It was an extremely traumatic split from my family conducted through private e-mails that these bloggers have access to. The quotes of mine swearing are spanning 10 years, and not a single one gives a link to the source or any greater context.
The purpose is character assassination, but it actually reveals the extremely controlling and close knit nature of the Chris Butler cult. They are control freaks and they seek to control every kid for life to not speak against them and reveal the true nature of the group. The cult literally has an internal intelligence agency, dubbed “security” within the cult.
This is not how authentic religious communities operate.
To paraphrase one of the "Other People", no one is anti Hindu here, but we are all anti Asshole.
Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity- Words of KIng Butler
Posted by:
VoxVeritasVita Das
()
Date: March 27, 2016 03:53AM
Speaking of assholes- this is the REAL Chris Butler- the man that Tulsi Gabbard has surrendered her entire life to- its not about religion- its about a destructive cult. No one here is hindu-phobic. We are here to expose the lies and deceptions of one man.
The following is found on this forum and has been reposted several times.
Many of us have witnessed this and/or were present when this occurred.
King Butler in all his “glory” will now regale us with his words of "whizz-dom”.
Quote: "More from quotesman:
"You are all demons, you are just like fucking ISKCON, You’re all
condemned!!!"
"I am not condemning you, you are condemning yourself."
"My Godbrothers in ISKCON are clumps of dog stool.”
"If I don’t want to answer you, you are at fault not me.”
"If you don’t know you are not supposed to know.”
"Tell that asshole the only way he can come to a gathering is if he pays 100
dollars each time.”
"Tell asshole I changed my mind, he has to pay 1,000 dollars every gathering
he comes to.”
"As soon as you realize you have nothing to offer me and you don’t know
anything maybe then I can teach you something.”
"It is your fault, the guru is faultless.”
"My disciples make me sick.”
"You would think with 25 kitchen servants and 35 preparations a day,
spending over a hundred dollars a meal, you a##holes could make something
good to eat. Instead I have to go to a Chinese restaurant to get a bite to
eat. Assholes!!!’"
"You fool! Don’t say the metal detectors are to detect guns, say they are to
detect beeper watches, you know what a great offense it is to wear one near
me. Oh I am so irritated by that sound!!!”
"Damn it keep your gun in your bead bag. That’s what it is for idiot!! You
probably thought you were supposed to keep beads in that bag. Fool!!! I
have to teach you guys everything!!!”
"WTF is asshole doing here, tell him to get the fuck out of here.”
"Tell J--- I don’t want to see his face, but because I have to talk to him
and deal with him, he can wear a bag over his head, then I don’t have to
see his face.”
"I am more humble than anyone, even my own guru."
"Damn bogus guru! They all have guruitis."
"My disciples all have guruitis too!!!"
[“Guruitis” is a term Butler used to describe a follower who is envious and wants to be a guru. Of course no one can be guru but Butler alone.]
"My disciples are all fucking neophytes.”
"Everyone has guruitis but me and VD.”
"Insulting VD [Vaishnava dasi aka Wai Lana] is worse than insulting me you idiot.”
"Are those assholes still running that store in Lahaina, why don’t they give
it to DTE, assholes--- and they call themselves my disciples make all kinds
of money while their kids skate and surf, assholes, they should give it to
me.”
"WTF!!!!.. you guys have been working on getting this house together for 6
weeks now. You expect me to live here after you shit all over it??? You
missed a space there dumb shit, cover it with tin foil so I can live here
in peace. Straighten out your germ mask idiot.”
"Tell Sankirtan das to stay out of my house, he has dirt between his toes.”
"Tell Wayne and Krishna das [Mike Gabbard], WTF, I let them get into politics and now they
act just like politicians!!!! They became politicians those buttheads!!”
"I let my disciples dress like karmis and materialist and now they act like
karmis and materialists, assholes.”
"Call the head of personal service, everyone fast for 6 months, the milk in
the refrigerator is out of date. Call a meeting worldwide. Tell the head
of personal service to get her ass here right now!! WTF is this hair doing
in my soup gaddamit. Tell everyone fast for a year, six months is too
lenient. Tell the head of personal service not only must she fast from food
and water she has to fast from sleep too!!!” Get that shit out of here,
you call that prasadam, assholes!!!” Everyone is fined 1,000 dollars each.!!!”
"You spend a fuggen 100,000 dollars on this air machine and I still have to
use an oxygen bottle, can’t you guys do anything right??”
"What you expect me to breathe, common air?? Assholes!!”
"What? Just because you come here and clean my floor and wash my dishes,
eat my toenails and drink my footwater you think you have the right to talk
to me, write me a letter a-hole.”
"The only person I can trust is VD [Vaishnava dasi aka Wai Lana].”
"The guru is never attached to the opposite sex."
"Where is VD, I have not seen her in the last 10 minutes."
"What you think I spend all my time with my wife because I am attached?
Asshole this is pure devotional service, me and VD will serve together in
the spiritual world too, you envious snake!!”
"The pure devotee is peaceful and does not need anything or anyones
service, he has Krsna."
"The pure devotee is self satisfied, always peaceful and never troubled by
the duality of the world."
"The servant of Krishna has no enemies.”
"What is that asshole doing here, I told him get the hell out of Hawaii and
go back to New Zealand.”
"Ok you can take off the bag now, I think you learned your lesson.” End quote.
Now folks, for your bonus question- how many times did Butler call
his female slaves, such as Cereberus dasi*--err em...Prema dasi, a C_ _ T !?!
*Cerberus-
In Greek mythology, Cerberus, often called the “Hound of Hades", is a monstrous multi-headed dog, who guards the gates of the Hell, preventing the dead from leaving.
(Cereberus dasi- guarding the gates of Butler’s hell where the brainless
devbots can never leave.)
All hail King Butler
Listen well, for the white ball of Butler will ride you to hell- King Butler
until you are dead...
until you are dead..
until you are dead.
The following is found on this forum and has been reposted several times.
Many of us have witnessed this and/or were present when this occurred.
King Butler in all his “glory” will now regale us with his words of "whizz-dom”.
Quote: "More from quotesman:
"You are all demons, you are just like fucking ISKCON, You’re all
condemned!!!"
"I am not condemning you, you are condemning yourself."
"My Godbrothers in ISKCON are clumps of dog stool.”
"If I don’t want to answer you, you are at fault not me.”
"If you don’t know you are not supposed to know.”
"Tell that asshole the only way he can come to a gathering is if he pays 100
dollars each time.”
"Tell asshole I changed my mind, he has to pay 1,000 dollars every gathering
he comes to.”
"As soon as you realize you have nothing to offer me and you don’t know
anything maybe then I can teach you something.”
"It is your fault, the guru is faultless.”
"My disciples make me sick.”
"You would think with 25 kitchen servants and 35 preparations a day,
spending over a hundred dollars a meal, you a##holes could make something
good to eat. Instead I have to go to a Chinese restaurant to get a bite to
eat. Assholes!!!’"
"You fool! Don’t say the metal detectors are to detect guns, say they are to
detect beeper watches, you know what a great offense it is to wear one near
me. Oh I am so irritated by that sound!!!”
"Damn it keep your gun in your bead bag. That’s what it is for idiot!! You
probably thought you were supposed to keep beads in that bag. Fool!!! I
have to teach you guys everything!!!”
"WTF is asshole doing here, tell him to get the fuck out of here.”
"Tell J--- I don’t want to see his face, but because I have to talk to him
and deal with him, he can wear a bag over his head, then I don’t have to
see his face.”
"I am more humble than anyone, even my own guru."
"Damn bogus guru! They all have guruitis."
"My disciples all have guruitis too!!!"
[“Guruitis” is a term Butler used to describe a follower who is envious and wants to be a guru. Of course no one can be guru but Butler alone.]
"My disciples are all fucking neophytes.”
"Everyone has guruitis but me and VD.”
"Insulting VD [Vaishnava dasi aka Wai Lana] is worse than insulting me you idiot.”
"Are those assholes still running that store in Lahaina, why don’t they give
it to DTE, assholes--- and they call themselves my disciples make all kinds
of money while their kids skate and surf, assholes, they should give it to
me.”
"WTF!!!!.. you guys have been working on getting this house together for 6
weeks now. You expect me to live here after you shit all over it??? You
missed a space there dumb shit, cover it with tin foil so I can live here
in peace. Straighten out your germ mask idiot.”
"Tell Sankirtan das to stay out of my house, he has dirt between his toes.”
"Tell Wayne and Krishna das [Mike Gabbard], WTF, I let them get into politics and now they
act just like politicians!!!! They became politicians those buttheads!!”
"I let my disciples dress like karmis and materialist and now they act like
karmis and materialists, assholes.”
"Call the head of personal service, everyone fast for 6 months, the milk in
the refrigerator is out of date. Call a meeting worldwide. Tell the head
of personal service to get her ass here right now!! WTF is this hair doing
in my soup gaddamit. Tell everyone fast for a year, six months is too
lenient. Tell the head of personal service not only must she fast from food
and water she has to fast from sleep too!!!” Get that shit out of here,
you call that prasadam, assholes!!!” Everyone is fined 1,000 dollars each.!!!”
"You spend a fuggen 100,000 dollars on this air machine and I still have to
use an oxygen bottle, can’t you guys do anything right??”
"What you expect me to breathe, common air?? Assholes!!”
"What? Just because you come here and clean my floor and wash my dishes,
eat my toenails and drink my footwater you think you have the right to talk
to me, write me a letter a-hole.”
"The only person I can trust is VD [Vaishnava dasi aka Wai Lana].”
"The guru is never attached to the opposite sex."
"Where is VD, I have not seen her in the last 10 minutes."
"What you think I spend all my time with my wife because I am attached?
Asshole this is pure devotional service, me and VD will serve together in
the spiritual world too, you envious snake!!”
"The pure devotee is peaceful and does not need anything or anyones
service, he has Krsna."
"The pure devotee is self satisfied, always peaceful and never troubled by
the duality of the world."
"The servant of Krishna has no enemies.”
"What is that asshole doing here, I told him get the hell out of Hawaii and
go back to New Zealand.”
"Ok you can take off the bag now, I think you learned your lesson.” End quote.
Now folks, for your bonus question- how many times did Butler call
his female slaves, such as Cereberus dasi*--err em...Prema dasi, a C_ _ T !?!
*Cerberus-
In Greek mythology, Cerberus, often called the “Hound of Hades", is a monstrous multi-headed dog, who guards the gates of the Hell, preventing the dead from leaving.
(Cereberus dasi- guarding the gates of Butler’s hell where the brainless
devbots can never leave.)
Listen well, for the white ball of Butler will ride you to hell- King Butler
until you are dead...
until you are dead..
until you are dead.
Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by:
dabcult
()
Date: March 27, 2016 03:54AM
Very good writing Vera
Its obvious to me ...who witness Butler do the psychic sleep ..she as no idea
of what went down in the cult at the beginning ...of it
She sound brainwash ..repeating the same "HINDU STUFF" that is now popular with
the Butler cult "we are not brainwash followers worshipping Butler and his wife as pure devotees of Krishna ...and thinking he is our only ticket to paradise NO we are HINDUS " Butler is Hindu ..Wai Lana is Hindu ...Tulsi is Hindu ..
Carol Gabbard is Hindu ...but wait Mike Gabbard is Catholique is it he ?
Lies ..deceits is the hallmarks of this cult ..And little new comers are never told the real truth as Vera rightfully mention...and once they get the initiation
and get a fancy sanskrit name ...and start the Butler Wai Lana worship
the get ...in the words of deprogrammers ZAP TO DA MAX ....like Robyn Ranson
Its the same process ...be Scientology ...Butler ...or Swami BEYOND ANANDA
Its obvious to me ...who witness Butler do the psychic sleep ..she as no idea
of what went down in the cult at the beginning ...of it
She sound brainwash ..repeating the same "HINDU STUFF" that is now popular with
the Butler cult "we are not brainwash followers worshipping Butler and his wife as pure devotees of Krishna ...and thinking he is our only ticket to paradise NO we are HINDUS " Butler is Hindu ..Wai Lana is Hindu ...Tulsi is Hindu ..
Carol Gabbard is Hindu ...but wait Mike Gabbard is Catholique is it he ?
Lies ..deceits is the hallmarks of this cult ..And little new comers are never told the real truth as Vera rightfully mention...and once they get the initiation
and get a fancy sanskrit name ...and start the Butler Wai Lana worship
the get ...in the words of deprogrammers ZAP TO DA MAX ....like Robyn Ranson
Its the same process ...be Scientology ...Butler ...or Swami BEYOND ANANDA
Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by:
IanKoviak
()
Date: March 27, 2016 03:55AM
It's a deeply emotionally charged place to be in life: Questioning a life long belief that we were taught to just follow without questioning and at times with fear of punishment or not being able to seek our own life path.
There is no denying the butler cult is ripe with foulness. That is the experience of both ex-cult members as well as the facts at hand. They are facts. A lot of what has surfaced in recent years is not made up, but is supported by evidence much of which is documented here on this extensive forum.
The anger, frustration and venomous attacks on the cult by certain parties is not due to an abstract hate of "hinduism". This is incorrect, and in all honestly, there are few hindus who would look at the butler cult as a real expression of hinduism. As far as the detail of the at times atheistic or more extremists views presented by certain people—this is not, again, to be confused with some sort of anti-hindu sentient. in fact, in terms of philosophical conceptions and a gernal appreciation of culture and tradition, we are all in agreement that India is by far very a major contributor.
Without getting into the specifics of the fallacies and confusion surrounding the effort and intention of ex-cult members in shedding light on the butler cult, suffice it to say it comes from a place of substantial pain and confusion suffered at the hands of this cult. No question this is something that is a foreign experience to you, dear Surabi and some other 2nd/3rd generation butler cult kids. Good for you, indeed. But where does that leave the voice and experiences of others?
Several years back, when I started to really grapple with what I went through and it's implications over nearly 2 decades, I wanted to go back and explore what I went through that has left me feeling so alone and confused and upset. At the same time I also felt a great feeling of liberation and newfound happiness in finally freeing my mind from some of the mythology and craziness that abounded in the various krishna groups I was a part of. I was finally making some peace with the notion that this india-centric god (dhotis, lotus flowers, cows, peacocks, elephants and rig-vidic nature deities) I had been worshipping was far from the ideal I had imagined it to be. I started to study and research and having been to india several times I was acquainted with the personalities and ideas associated with the cult on a deeper level.
It was during this time that I started a blog that I have since taken down documenting my time with the Baguio Brahmacharis. The blog was an attempt to draw out some of my old friends from the butler boys school I went to in the Philippine Islands. It was an unbiased, respectful attempt at discussion. The question was simple: What happened to us there? Was I the only one that felt a sense of disconnection, anxiety and loss? Was I the only one that seemed to feel that it was not right for us to have been sent to a school 6000 miles from our parents to just live and worship a picture of a man, listen to his lectures which were often filled with critical views on science, homosexuality, anger at disciples, calling out of materialism and other religious groups as inferior and flawed... Was it ok that we lived in a environment that did not in any way prepare us to live in a real world out there? That we spent our mornings, from 4am to 9pm taking cold bucket showers, studying archaic mythology and chanting, praying, and devoting our minds to the concept that life is just a cycle of birth, disease, old age and death? That we can find our true merit in life by rote chanting?
I heard crickets. In fact, only 1 (nitai bishop) of the 36 boys I had gone to school with came out of the woodwork. That struck me as odd. I asked him to reach out and tell the others. I made "friends" with a few of them on FB and elsewhere to try to say "hey guys! how's it going? How is life? Would you care to discuss this time of our life?". Again, nothing. Crickets. It struck me as odd. But deep in side I sensed a reason for it. Even while in the cult, Butler was becoming increasingly reclusive and his whereabouts and what he was up to where always shrouded in mystery and secrecy. So it made sense that his disciples were also like this... Like father, like son.
I started search around for information. What happened to this group? I came upon website after website with simplistic, pleasant sounding, yoga-oriented quotes of butler, pictures of him from the 80s and a few straggling "you're not your body" lectures. Wow! After nearly 20+ years, there was nothing but this left of the very active cult I grew up in? I recalled how butler made such a big deal to his disciples in letters (blaming them for his deteriorating health) that they should be more careful in preserving his lectures and so forth—yet, here we were some 20 years later and there was noting new in terms of videos or recordings.
In my research, I cam to discover this forum. I read bits and pieces. I often found the comments to be inflammatory and angry. Sometimes bluntly and baselessly critical for no particular end other than to shame or discredit certain people. I don't personally agree with that method. I have made that clear here and in private to many people on this forum. My concern is the larger issue of what we went through as kids and was it in fact damaging. My conclusion is that it was. All the other evidence and substantiated comments, many of which I can attest to as well, are perhaps at times filled with rage and anger and frustration, but they come from a place of wanting to point out the truth and the hurt and pain that was caused.
This is not including my painful time breaking away from the butler group in early 1996 when butler rejected a slew of his followers who wanted to travel to india and hear other god-brothers speak for inspiration since he was not actively preaching anymore (we were literally blown away by the callous and cold way that this person we all faithfully followed became diabolically possessive over his followers who wanted nothing more than to keep advancing in their association and knowledge of the path they spent many years surrendering to and pursuing). It was during this time that butler sent his right hand man, Tusta Krishna to become part of the so-called WVA (world vaishnava association). During this time, the gaudiya vaishnava scene was doing anything in it's power to break away from the bad rep it had in association to ISKCON. Butler never made it to the various ceremonies and founding members were sycophants at best in who they admitted as members. As time went on this organization is not even active in any legitimate way nor is there any real structure or ideal behind it. The aim was to unify the various groups of gurus (literally hundreds) that sprouted up after the main guru's died. There was so much resistance about having good ol chris in the WVA, but in the end it would have been bad politics to not let him in. And Tusta Krishna wasted no time in making that known to the founding members. As vaishnavas are gentle and peaceful folks, they did not feel it proper to exclude a "fellow" guru.
This may not be the same experiences as members nowadays have. I feel that chanting and belief and study of the gita has value. For the most part, the philosophy is harmless if taken symbolically and with a grain of salt. As an atheist, I am much more stimulated by the discussion and study of the 8 out of 9 schools of atheistic philosophy of India's great thinkers than dabbling in something that I feel is laughable and trite, namely, feeling that the summon bonum of existence is to imagine that we are going to go back to goloka vrnadaban and engage in eternal rasa of gopi-bhav. Or worse, that we do not care if we ever go there because we are content with love in separation or one other such idealistic fantasy.
But, I respect that this is not everyones assertion who practices gaudiya vaishnavsim. And as such, I don't condone baseless hindu-bashing and bigotry of any type. I will not, however, stand behind a wall of silence about my personal experience and realizations.
Rama lost something that was very dear to him: His mother and father. His only ability to retain their presence in his life was to stay behind a wall of silence and fear about what he saw as injustice of the highest order. While his way of showing his emotion is less than agreeable to some, it does start discussions.
Blatantly poking fun of various cult members or attacking them on various social media is not acceptable in my eyes. Creating logical and structured debate and argument as well as presenting nothing more than facts is something I can stand behind happily and support. But looking at Rama's blog or the late flashlight on roaches, I don't really see any major falsification of information. In fact, spoofing and showing something to be ridiculous and spineless can be a great method of opening peoples eyes. It's done daily with Donald Trump and many public and political figures. In the case of most, if not all the people Rama has clowned on, this stands to be true. They are either political figures, film actors or some sort of public entity.
Here is the fact: The cult bullied rama. They made him out to be a human flaw and ejected him from contact with his family. Sure, this made him angry and may have led to some very personal (verbal) attacks on his family and friends and others in the cult. But this is literally ONE man, against a cult of MANY who are totally welcome to challenge and fight back and smear his name as well or put up a good argument for their guru—who seems to be out of commission to answer any questions anyway. The other person in question, Henry, is a filmmaker and has been very instrumental in revealing some very honest questions and events. While it may be distasteful to hear the truth about your cult, please do not lump it in with some sort of "anti-hindu" sentiment. This again makes you look like a cult. I highly doubt if a hindu family set up a surf shop in Kailua with Ganesh and Shiva and Laxmi pictures plastered around their shop that they would get much of a raised eyebrow or effect out of the likes of Rama and Henry or even Kailua locals—Hawaii is no stranger to hindu god worship and goddess parties and so forth. The issue at hand is clearly pointing out that this cult has their hands in things that mater: Politics, innocent families and kids being born into it without ANY knowledge about who they are worshipping and giving their time, money and energy to. Ultimately Rama and Henry's efforts to expose this cult have raised some important questions as well as hairs on our neck.
The fact that butler has given some good knowledge or inspiration is neither here nor there. So has Deepak Chopra and any number of Oprah Whinfreys and Swamis. Anyone who claims to be a credible source of knowledge and dignity needs to be vetted and shown for who they really are. This is done with politicians, social workers, and anyone in a position of power/authority—telling people what is right and wrong. It is called democracy. We all have a right to review the credentials of those who speak for a minority or any group big or small.
I feel sad when I read blogs like [www.dreamingofaloha.com]. They are filled with a message of discrimination and lack of fairness to the parties who really need the aloha most. I highly doubt that Surabi's family is viewed by local as threats or with any hatred. In fact, anyone who sees her art or reads her stories and sees her family and understands the plight of her disease, no matter what religion or faith or political background, will say that they appreciate her life and her struggle. In fact, that is the beauty found innately in most people (without a superstitious god). When they are informed of the personal struggle and fear of others, they open up and want to help.
Those who are expressing some so-called bigotry or narrow view of your faith—they are just afraid of something they do not know and is confusing to them. They are confused why a local family man was mowed down by a cult member who is known for his shoreline antics. They are confused and scared that in their midst lives a reclusive tin-foil-encaged guru who has yet to show his face, but controls the lives and allegiance of so many simple and nice people. They do not understand why so much secrecy and oddity surrounds a group of people who should be simply enjoying their life and not bowing down to a man who should get a job and earn a living or move to the himalayas and meditate. This is not envy or crooked thinking. It's a legitimate social/communal fear.
Imagine if you were living in a community where there was some boarded up house, that you heard was lined with tin-foil and a bunch of free laborers were coming in and out of the house and known for terrorizing the shorelines and ultimately ran over one of your communities dear friends and members... What would you do? How would you feel? Would you not be afraid and angered? Anger is a human emotion. It's something we feel from birth as we create concepts of injustice and inequity in social and personal structures (it's not just born form so-called lust as the Gita would have you believe). We may or may not be our body and there may or may not be an afterlife, but being simple and acting out of fear is the same driving force that leads you to chant every day on beads and others to stand up for an implied or real injustice and falsity. People want to know. They want to feel safe and not confused.
It's tough. I don't pretend to know the answer to what is proper or real or false. If you read your india's scriptures, you will see they are filled with sages and kings making antagonizing statement, manipulating, cursing and angering the gods. Perhaps these scriptures are trying to show us that these are a fundamental part of the human flaw. We are who we are. We are not perfect. We are not able to conceive what perfection even is perhaps because it does not exist. As devotees we are taught to beat the mind down and subjugate it. This internal war is illustrated in the texts of the Gita and other scriptures. Life is a fight. Life is war. Life is life. And then after that there is only death. And it's done. So what we have to make an impact and leave a mark is this time now. That's it.
At the end of the day—SIF would benefit from a bit less secrecy surrounding their faith. If it is indeed a "universal" path, then share it with openness and pride. And when people ask about the schools in the Philippines, the toe nail eating, the tin foil—by golly, stand up for yourself and have an answer about it that makes sense and in the least is open and honest. When people ask about Tulsi or any number of political moves within the cult—explain your stance. SIF does not seem to have a problem cowering behind the "hindu" banner when times are tough. But it just reeks of cowardice and duplicity in the end. Actions speak loader than words.
And please, enough with the so-called hindu bashing rhetoric. Fact is that I'm an Atheist Hindu and study the various philosophical works of India regularly and with focus on the incongruences of the scriptural myths and how they developed historically and what purposes they served as both literal and symbolic texts. India's great philosophical and spiritual traditions span so many ideas and faiths that nearly anyone can comfortably find a chair at the table of so-called Eastern Thought.
There is no denying the butler cult is ripe with foulness. That is the experience of both ex-cult members as well as the facts at hand. They are facts. A lot of what has surfaced in recent years is not made up, but is supported by evidence much of which is documented here on this extensive forum.
The anger, frustration and venomous attacks on the cult by certain parties is not due to an abstract hate of "hinduism". This is incorrect, and in all honestly, there are few hindus who would look at the butler cult as a real expression of hinduism. As far as the detail of the at times atheistic or more extremists views presented by certain people—this is not, again, to be confused with some sort of anti-hindu sentient. in fact, in terms of philosophical conceptions and a gernal appreciation of culture and tradition, we are all in agreement that India is by far very a major contributor.
Without getting into the specifics of the fallacies and confusion surrounding the effort and intention of ex-cult members in shedding light on the butler cult, suffice it to say it comes from a place of substantial pain and confusion suffered at the hands of this cult. No question this is something that is a foreign experience to you, dear Surabi and some other 2nd/3rd generation butler cult kids. Good for you, indeed. But where does that leave the voice and experiences of others?
Several years back, when I started to really grapple with what I went through and it's implications over nearly 2 decades, I wanted to go back and explore what I went through that has left me feeling so alone and confused and upset. At the same time I also felt a great feeling of liberation and newfound happiness in finally freeing my mind from some of the mythology and craziness that abounded in the various krishna groups I was a part of. I was finally making some peace with the notion that this india-centric god (dhotis, lotus flowers, cows, peacocks, elephants and rig-vidic nature deities) I had been worshipping was far from the ideal I had imagined it to be. I started to study and research and having been to india several times I was acquainted with the personalities and ideas associated with the cult on a deeper level.
It was during this time that I started a blog that I have since taken down documenting my time with the Baguio Brahmacharis. The blog was an attempt to draw out some of my old friends from the butler boys school I went to in the Philippine Islands. It was an unbiased, respectful attempt at discussion. The question was simple: What happened to us there? Was I the only one that felt a sense of disconnection, anxiety and loss? Was I the only one that seemed to feel that it was not right for us to have been sent to a school 6000 miles from our parents to just live and worship a picture of a man, listen to his lectures which were often filled with critical views on science, homosexuality, anger at disciples, calling out of materialism and other religious groups as inferior and flawed... Was it ok that we lived in a environment that did not in any way prepare us to live in a real world out there? That we spent our mornings, from 4am to 9pm taking cold bucket showers, studying archaic mythology and chanting, praying, and devoting our minds to the concept that life is just a cycle of birth, disease, old age and death? That we can find our true merit in life by rote chanting?
I heard crickets. In fact, only 1 (nitai bishop) of the 36 boys I had gone to school with came out of the woodwork. That struck me as odd. I asked him to reach out and tell the others. I made "friends" with a few of them on FB and elsewhere to try to say "hey guys! how's it going? How is life? Would you care to discuss this time of our life?". Again, nothing. Crickets. It struck me as odd. But deep in side I sensed a reason for it. Even while in the cult, Butler was becoming increasingly reclusive and his whereabouts and what he was up to where always shrouded in mystery and secrecy. So it made sense that his disciples were also like this... Like father, like son.
I started search around for information. What happened to this group? I came upon website after website with simplistic, pleasant sounding, yoga-oriented quotes of butler, pictures of him from the 80s and a few straggling "you're not your body" lectures. Wow! After nearly 20+ years, there was nothing but this left of the very active cult I grew up in? I recalled how butler made such a big deal to his disciples in letters (blaming them for his deteriorating health) that they should be more careful in preserving his lectures and so forth—yet, here we were some 20 years later and there was noting new in terms of videos or recordings.
In my research, I cam to discover this forum. I read bits and pieces. I often found the comments to be inflammatory and angry. Sometimes bluntly and baselessly critical for no particular end other than to shame or discredit certain people. I don't personally agree with that method. I have made that clear here and in private to many people on this forum. My concern is the larger issue of what we went through as kids and was it in fact damaging. My conclusion is that it was. All the other evidence and substantiated comments, many of which I can attest to as well, are perhaps at times filled with rage and anger and frustration, but they come from a place of wanting to point out the truth and the hurt and pain that was caused.
This is not including my painful time breaking away from the butler group in early 1996 when butler rejected a slew of his followers who wanted to travel to india and hear other god-brothers speak for inspiration since he was not actively preaching anymore (we were literally blown away by the callous and cold way that this person we all faithfully followed became diabolically possessive over his followers who wanted nothing more than to keep advancing in their association and knowledge of the path they spent many years surrendering to and pursuing). It was during this time that butler sent his right hand man, Tusta Krishna to become part of the so-called WVA (world vaishnava association). During this time, the gaudiya vaishnava scene was doing anything in it's power to break away from the bad rep it had in association to ISKCON. Butler never made it to the various ceremonies and founding members were sycophants at best in who they admitted as members. As time went on this organization is not even active in any legitimate way nor is there any real structure or ideal behind it. The aim was to unify the various groups of gurus (literally hundreds) that sprouted up after the main guru's died. There was so much resistance about having good ol chris in the WVA, but in the end it would have been bad politics to not let him in. And Tusta Krishna wasted no time in making that known to the founding members. As vaishnavas are gentle and peaceful folks, they did not feel it proper to exclude a "fellow" guru.
This may not be the same experiences as members nowadays have. I feel that chanting and belief and study of the gita has value. For the most part, the philosophy is harmless if taken symbolically and with a grain of salt. As an atheist, I am much more stimulated by the discussion and study of the 8 out of 9 schools of atheistic philosophy of India's great thinkers than dabbling in something that I feel is laughable and trite, namely, feeling that the summon bonum of existence is to imagine that we are going to go back to goloka vrnadaban and engage in eternal rasa of gopi-bhav. Or worse, that we do not care if we ever go there because we are content with love in separation or one other such idealistic fantasy.
But, I respect that this is not everyones assertion who practices gaudiya vaishnavsim. And as such, I don't condone baseless hindu-bashing and bigotry of any type. I will not, however, stand behind a wall of silence about my personal experience and realizations.
Rama lost something that was very dear to him: His mother and father. His only ability to retain their presence in his life was to stay behind a wall of silence and fear about what he saw as injustice of the highest order. While his way of showing his emotion is less than agreeable to some, it does start discussions.
Blatantly poking fun of various cult members or attacking them on various social media is not acceptable in my eyes. Creating logical and structured debate and argument as well as presenting nothing more than facts is something I can stand behind happily and support. But looking at Rama's blog or the late flashlight on roaches, I don't really see any major falsification of information. In fact, spoofing and showing something to be ridiculous and spineless can be a great method of opening peoples eyes. It's done daily with Donald Trump and many public and political figures. In the case of most, if not all the people Rama has clowned on, this stands to be true. They are either political figures, film actors or some sort of public entity.
Here is the fact: The cult bullied rama. They made him out to be a human flaw and ejected him from contact with his family. Sure, this made him angry and may have led to some very personal (verbal) attacks on his family and friends and others in the cult. But this is literally ONE man, against a cult of MANY who are totally welcome to challenge and fight back and smear his name as well or put up a good argument for their guru—who seems to be out of commission to answer any questions anyway. The other person in question, Henry, is a filmmaker and has been very instrumental in revealing some very honest questions and events. While it may be distasteful to hear the truth about your cult, please do not lump it in with some sort of "anti-hindu" sentiment. This again makes you look like a cult. I highly doubt if a hindu family set up a surf shop in Kailua with Ganesh and Shiva and Laxmi pictures plastered around their shop that they would get much of a raised eyebrow or effect out of the likes of Rama and Henry or even Kailua locals—Hawaii is no stranger to hindu god worship and goddess parties and so forth. The issue at hand is clearly pointing out that this cult has their hands in things that mater: Politics, innocent families and kids being born into it without ANY knowledge about who they are worshipping and giving their time, money and energy to. Ultimately Rama and Henry's efforts to expose this cult have raised some important questions as well as hairs on our neck.
The fact that butler has given some good knowledge or inspiration is neither here nor there. So has Deepak Chopra and any number of Oprah Whinfreys and Swamis. Anyone who claims to be a credible source of knowledge and dignity needs to be vetted and shown for who they really are. This is done with politicians, social workers, and anyone in a position of power/authority—telling people what is right and wrong. It is called democracy. We all have a right to review the credentials of those who speak for a minority or any group big or small.
I feel sad when I read blogs like [www.dreamingofaloha.com]. They are filled with a message of discrimination and lack of fairness to the parties who really need the aloha most. I highly doubt that Surabi's family is viewed by local as threats or with any hatred. In fact, anyone who sees her art or reads her stories and sees her family and understands the plight of her disease, no matter what religion or faith or political background, will say that they appreciate her life and her struggle. In fact, that is the beauty found innately in most people (without a superstitious god). When they are informed of the personal struggle and fear of others, they open up and want to help.
Those who are expressing some so-called bigotry or narrow view of your faith—they are just afraid of something they do not know and is confusing to them. They are confused why a local family man was mowed down by a cult member who is known for his shoreline antics. They are confused and scared that in their midst lives a reclusive tin-foil-encaged guru who has yet to show his face, but controls the lives and allegiance of so many simple and nice people. They do not understand why so much secrecy and oddity surrounds a group of people who should be simply enjoying their life and not bowing down to a man who should get a job and earn a living or move to the himalayas and meditate. This is not envy or crooked thinking. It's a legitimate social/communal fear.
Imagine if you were living in a community where there was some boarded up house, that you heard was lined with tin-foil and a bunch of free laborers were coming in and out of the house and known for terrorizing the shorelines and ultimately ran over one of your communities dear friends and members... What would you do? How would you feel? Would you not be afraid and angered? Anger is a human emotion. It's something we feel from birth as we create concepts of injustice and inequity in social and personal structures (it's not just born form so-called lust as the Gita would have you believe). We may or may not be our body and there may or may not be an afterlife, but being simple and acting out of fear is the same driving force that leads you to chant every day on beads and others to stand up for an implied or real injustice and falsity. People want to know. They want to feel safe and not confused.
It's tough. I don't pretend to know the answer to what is proper or real or false. If you read your india's scriptures, you will see they are filled with sages and kings making antagonizing statement, manipulating, cursing and angering the gods. Perhaps these scriptures are trying to show us that these are a fundamental part of the human flaw. We are who we are. We are not perfect. We are not able to conceive what perfection even is perhaps because it does not exist. As devotees we are taught to beat the mind down and subjugate it. This internal war is illustrated in the texts of the Gita and other scriptures. Life is a fight. Life is war. Life is life. And then after that there is only death. And it's done. So what we have to make an impact and leave a mark is this time now. That's it.
At the end of the day—SIF would benefit from a bit less secrecy surrounding their faith. If it is indeed a "universal" path, then share it with openness and pride. And when people ask about the schools in the Philippines, the toe nail eating, the tin foil—by golly, stand up for yourself and have an answer about it that makes sense and in the least is open and honest. When people ask about Tulsi or any number of political moves within the cult—explain your stance. SIF does not seem to have a problem cowering behind the "hindu" banner when times are tough. But it just reeks of cowardice and duplicity in the end. Actions speak loader than words.
And please, enough with the so-called hindu bashing rhetoric. Fact is that I'm an Atheist Hindu and study the various philosophical works of India regularly and with focus on the incongruences of the scriptural myths and how they developed historically and what purposes they served as both literal and symbolic texts. India's great philosophical and spiritual traditions span so many ideas and faiths that nearly anyone can comfortably find a chair at the table of so-called Eastern Thought.
Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by:
IanKoviak
()
Date: March 27, 2016 04:02AM
I recall the Prema Dasi insult sessions too Vox. Butler once told the woman that she saw all men as Cocks with Wedding rings on them, as she was undoubtably looking for a boyfriend or some comfort in relationships outside of the cult. She wanted to get married and he was demeaning her for it openly in many lectures. Insanity. Even as a kid I thought it was mean spirited and odd that anyone should be made to feel bad because they want to get married or are looking for a boyfriend.
Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by:
corboy
()
Date: March 27, 2016 08:12AM
If Chris Butler genuinely believed in 'freedom of religion' he would not
prohibit his devotees from pursuing higher education into the many
different traditions of Krishna devotion.
Since Butler operates his group as a closed society which has utter contempt for
outsiders, this means potential converts cannot learn the full extent of what will be expected of them.
By contrast, anyone seeking to become Roman Catholic goes through detailed
instruction and will have full knowledge of the doctrines and practices of the Catholic church.
Furthermore, no Catholic convert is required to sign any non disclosure documents.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/27/2016 08:13AM by corboy.
prohibit his devotees from pursuing higher education into the many
different traditions of Krishna devotion.
Since Butler operates his group as a closed society which has utter contempt for
outsiders, this means potential converts cannot learn the full extent of what will be expected of them.
By contrast, anyone seeking to become Roman Catholic goes through detailed
instruction and will have full knowledge of the doctrines and practices of the Catholic church.
Furthermore, no Catholic convert is required to sign any non disclosure documents.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/27/2016 08:13AM by corboy.
Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by:
VoxVeritasVita Das
()
Date: March 27, 2016 08:27AM
We are not the only ones who have realized that there is something deeply wrong with Butler and with Tulsi Gabbard.
Once they did their research, it disturbed them so much, they were willing to step up and let their voice be heard as well:
FACEBOOK ENTRY
C. F.
March 20 near Honolulu, HI, United States ·
Quote: "Okay it was a zoo but I talked to Jane Sanders for a minute. Everyone was just waiting to take selfies and tell her how much they love her and Bernie so I think she was a bit taken a back. I only had a minute so I told her I was a homeless activist here and to please vet Tulsi Gabbard carefully because she has hurt a lot of people here. She responded that she didn't know that, and told me to email her and gave me her email address. PM me if you want to send her any concerns about Tulsi. The more people the better.” End quote.
* PM me if you wish to see the full link.
Once they did their research, it disturbed them so much, they were willing to step up and let their voice be heard as well:
FACEBOOK ENTRY
C. F.
March 20 near Honolulu, HI, United States ·
Quote: "Okay it was a zoo but I talked to Jane Sanders for a minute. Everyone was just waiting to take selfies and tell her how much they love her and Bernie so I think she was a bit taken a back. I only had a minute so I told her I was a homeless activist here and to please vet Tulsi Gabbard carefully because she has hurt a lot of people here. She responded that she didn't know that, and told me to email her and gave me her email address. PM me if you want to send her any concerns about Tulsi. The more people the better.” End quote.
* PM me if you wish to see the full link.
Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by:
VoxVeritasVita Das
()
Date: March 27, 2016 09:05AM
Here is the link to the above photo and posting:[www.facebook.com]
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