Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by:
Rama Das (slave name)
()
Date: November 16, 2015 08:44AM
Yeah, that does look like him. Classic photo taken just up the road from me
Anke Holst is cool, I like her blogs and videos, an ex Hare Krishna
Anke Holst is cool, I like her blogs and videos, an ex Hare Krishna
Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by:
Vera City
()
Date: November 16, 2015 02:09PM
Rama, I don't think that photo is old Sid, but this one is at the same location:
Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by:
Vera City
()
Date: November 16, 2015 03:11PM
corboy~ excellent points.
If you want to understand the underlying operating system of ISKCON, SOI, the Butlerites, and Tulsi- check out Rama's recommendation to read this great blog: Half Empty Acamana
If you want to understand the underlying operating system of ISKCON, SOI, the Butlerites, and Tulsi- check out Rama's recommendation to read this great blog: Half Empty Acamana
Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by:
Rama Das (slave name)
()
Date: November 16, 2015 05:04PM
Vera we thought it was a young Henry Joliceur "Hanuman Das" in that picture in front of ACBS, and I have seen that terrific shot with the young Sid and ACBS
SIDDHA VISCOUS ha ha
SIDDHA VISCOUS ha ha
Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by:
dharmabum
()
Date: November 16, 2015 10:51PM
Thanks for all of your persistence, research, points of view, and links.
~ Granny Vera
Rama wrote:
The resurfacing of this blog is absolutely monumental.
"Monumental" indeed. Thanks, Ian.
In the past months or years, I always fancied about when will this small movement (us on this forum) will become "pivotal", to mean to deal the death blow to Science of Identity Foundation?
In fact we are, but not in one impacted moment, but it was all incremental. 13 years ago, there was zero information about the cult. While SIF were busy innovating programs and euphemisms obviously to continue to mislead, seemingly left unchecked, we were fostering conversations. The best they could do to counter us was to flood the internet with stupid quotes and old pictures of their "cute" guru. Not one came up with the reasonable brain to dispute facts posted there; they remain irrefutable. Thanks, Rick Ross.
In a way, this forum has become the bible of the anti-SIF. We get cited; we get heard, and we are impacting lives, which is the single most important thrust of free speech. I cried when Lalita first posted, and as long as I hear from Rama and Carl my hope lives. I'm looking forward to the day when there won't be any more children shipped halfway across the world to get indoctrinated, separated from parents; and for parents to boldly refuse and recognize that children's place is and where "unconditional love" is home. That's all. The rest becomes a bonus.
Cheers to our brothers and sisters in the struggle at the other side: Empty Acamana, Radhika, Anke, etc.
Corboy wrote:
There is one difference.
ISIS hates those who disagrees and says so publicly.
I agree. At least ISIL is obvious, we can avoid and bomb them. Insidious cults, like SIF, like to hide in crevices and will only come out at night, like vampires. They invent all these euphemisms to be seen as benign and mainstream and would even dare challenge our institutional safeguards like the separation between the church and the states and insist that they have a place in a modern and plural society. No, they don't. Society should never give them an inch because they will take a foot and more. That's their nature — to mislead, to exploit, to abuse and bring hurts to unsuspecting families and individuals.
Truth works painstakingly slow, but it resonates deeply to make a difference and change lives.
~ Granny Vera
Rama wrote:
The resurfacing of this blog is absolutely monumental.
"Monumental" indeed. Thanks, Ian.
In the past months or years, I always fancied about when will this small movement (us on this forum) will become "pivotal", to mean to deal the death blow to Science of Identity Foundation?
In fact we are, but not in one impacted moment, but it was all incremental. 13 years ago, there was zero information about the cult. While SIF were busy innovating programs and euphemisms obviously to continue to mislead, seemingly left unchecked, we were fostering conversations. The best they could do to counter us was to flood the internet with stupid quotes and old pictures of their "cute" guru. Not one came up with the reasonable brain to dispute facts posted there; they remain irrefutable. Thanks, Rick Ross.
In a way, this forum has become the bible of the anti-SIF. We get cited; we get heard, and we are impacting lives, which is the single most important thrust of free speech. I cried when Lalita first posted, and as long as I hear from Rama and Carl my hope lives. I'm looking forward to the day when there won't be any more children shipped halfway across the world to get indoctrinated, separated from parents; and for parents to boldly refuse and recognize that children's place is and where "unconditional love" is home. That's all. The rest becomes a bonus.
Cheers to our brothers and sisters in the struggle at the other side: Empty Acamana, Radhika, Anke, etc.
Corboy wrote:
There is one difference.
ISIS hates those who disagrees and says so publicly.
I agree. At least ISIL is obvious, we can avoid and bomb them. Insidious cults, like SIF, like to hide in crevices and will only come out at night, like vampires. They invent all these euphemisms to be seen as benign and mainstream and would even dare challenge our institutional safeguards like the separation between the church and the states and insist that they have a place in a modern and plural society. No, they don't. Society should never give them an inch because they will take a foot and more. That's their nature — to mislead, to exploit, to abuse and bring hurts to unsuspecting families and individuals.
Truth works painstakingly slow, but it resonates deeply to make a difference and change lives.
Butlerism and ISIS are merely different applications sitting atop the same OS
Posted by:
Vera City
()
Date: November 17, 2015 03:03AM
Quote
corboy
Tulsi Gabbard has stepped forward to oppose ISIS. But she should consider that her religion is based on the same operating system as ISIS.
Same operating system -- Fundamentalist Purity
Butlerism and ISIS are merely different applications sitting atop the same OS.
The problem with purity is that it has no goal -- one can never be pure enough. Purists are never satisfied. Give in to their demands, they come up with new ones.
Great analogy corboy. The same underlying cult template is operating underneath the veneer of SOI Vaishnavism. One current application is more explosive and dangerous, but it too started out as a band of merry bros trying to make the world a better place under the guidance of cool dude who imbued himself with super divinity.
When you consider your leader infallible and beyond reproach, and you perceive the world as unclean and full of demons/jinns to overcome, you can rationalize any thing. When you wield no power, you will peacefully attempt to convert others with your methods of purification. But strange things happen when a religious movement becomes politically and militarily powerful.
All it takes are the right triggers and circumstances to start a "holy war". One crazy person with a serious personality disorder can twist a peaceful message into a violent one. Someone considered deviant or antagonistic to the cult will get death threats (as happened to Shyam Dodge) and more.
The line between a peaceful religion and a violent one is very thin. That is why the founding fathers created separation of church and state, while other nations sought social justice by eliminating religion all together. And then John Lennon wrote "Imagine".
Rama recommended a brilliantly written blog if you want to understand the underlying operating system of Tulsi's religious beliefs: Half-Empty Acamana
The veneer of civility of the "yoga lifestyle" and "eat, love, pray" is very thin. Don't scoff at the potential dangers.
Quote
Prabhupad said:
“…If one is able to kill, then one should by force cut out the blasphemer’s tongue and kill the offender…”
22 March 2015 by acbs
Prabhupada said, “If one happens to be a ksatriya he has the power to punish any man; therefore a ksatriya should at once cut out the tongue of the vilifier and kill him.” – SB 4.4.17, purport
Quote
Half-Empty Acama
All of this makes sense from inside the ISKCON (cult) bubble. I know. I believed it too. But once you step outside and look back at it dispassionately, it’s utterly horrific. Because it boils down to this: You can lie, cheat, steal, rape, kill… whatever, as long as you’re convinced it’s what Krishna wants you to do. ACBS said it most succinctly: “…there is nothing illegal, what we do for Krishna.” . . .
. . . “A devotee perfectly understands that the ordinary religious duties prescribed by Me in various Vedic scriptures possess favorable qualities that purify the performer, and he knows that neglect of such duties constitutes a discrepancy in one’s life. Having taken complete shelter at My lotus feet, however, a saintly person ultimately renounces such ordinary religious duties and worships Me alone. He is thus considered to be the best among all living entities.”
So, once again, it doesn’t matter what you do, just so long as you’re on god’s special list.
Butler took the ball and ran with that last quote. His only interest is in gaining more money, power and influence off the backs of his followers and through his proxies.
[This post is my unsolicited opinion protected, at least for now, under the freedom of speech clause of the First Amendment to the United States Constitution]
Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by:
VoxVeritasVita Das
()
Date: November 17, 2015 11:05AM
Rama and Vera,
That was indeed our dear Dabcult -Hanuman Das- back in 1969.
That was indeed our dear Dabcult -Hanuman Das- back in 1969.
Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by:
Rama Das (slave name)
()
Date: November 18, 2015 04:40AM
A comment from Ian Koviak on his blog article:
"
Ian KoviakNovember 16, 2015 at 10:13 AM
Hey Rama! Yeah, I remember you and your bro very well now. I had to jog my brain a bit, but it's all year now. Yup West Side Natural foods. It was around this time that a few siddha devotees started to visit Tory's temple in Hana. The Ferguson's, our family and a few others. We all were disillusioned with the SIF scene and were enjoying some of the more rootsy traditional aspects of being a krishna devotee.
Since we "switched" groups, I didn't keep too close of a contact with my PI buddies. Drifted apart. I think I saw Nitai Bishop, Narshingha, Damodar (jiva das) and a handful of others over the years at small get togethers. I recall hearing that butler had moved back to the islands but it was always so hush hush. My whole time in Hawaii—really my whole time as a devotee—was nothing but trauma and confusion. I was either experiencing the effects of fanatics directly or indirectly. I was walking around in a haze of disconnection and confusion. I was stressed out, anxious and always on edge about my spiritual practice, my place in the world, within my family and how I was to conduct myself. Years later and until the present I suffered from panic and anxiety for over 20 years. It wasn't until I let it all go and formed my own sense of self—apart from that wacky past—that I started to feel connected and inside my body. I lost nearly all of my childhood in terms of a loving, kind, fun relationship with my mother and father. Guru's were dictating what I did and I was putting my future in their hands, as I was told was the right thing, only to be left confused, angry and lacking any sense of belonging to one place or another. I missed my friends form the PI but was told to not communicate with them. I was told to not associate with anyone unless they were a part of my "group". So all my friendships over the years disintegrated and vanished completely. That sense of not belonging to any place and not having any close ties anywhere. It's a floaty, scary feeling. Like an astronaut floating without being able to communicate or connect with any ship. In the end I realized that this sort of isolating technique is what is giving people power over me and influence over my actions."
http://baguiobrahmacharislive.blogspot.com/2015/11/why-blog-went-private-for-some-time.html?m=1
"
Ian KoviakNovember 16, 2015 at 10:13 AM
Hey Rama! Yeah, I remember you and your bro very well now. I had to jog my brain a bit, but it's all year now. Yup West Side Natural foods. It was around this time that a few siddha devotees started to visit Tory's temple in Hana. The Ferguson's, our family and a few others. We all were disillusioned with the SIF scene and were enjoying some of the more rootsy traditional aspects of being a krishna devotee.
Since we "switched" groups, I didn't keep too close of a contact with my PI buddies. Drifted apart. I think I saw Nitai Bishop, Narshingha, Damodar (jiva das) and a handful of others over the years at small get togethers. I recall hearing that butler had moved back to the islands but it was always so hush hush. My whole time in Hawaii—really my whole time as a devotee—was nothing but trauma and confusion. I was either experiencing the effects of fanatics directly or indirectly. I was walking around in a haze of disconnection and confusion. I was stressed out, anxious and always on edge about my spiritual practice, my place in the world, within my family and how I was to conduct myself. Years later and until the present I suffered from panic and anxiety for over 20 years. It wasn't until I let it all go and formed my own sense of self—apart from that wacky past—that I started to feel connected and inside my body. I lost nearly all of my childhood in terms of a loving, kind, fun relationship with my mother and father. Guru's were dictating what I did and I was putting my future in their hands, as I was told was the right thing, only to be left confused, angry and lacking any sense of belonging to one place or another. I missed my friends form the PI but was told to not communicate with them. I was told to not associate with anyone unless they were a part of my "group". So all my friendships over the years disintegrated and vanished completely. That sense of not belonging to any place and not having any close ties anywhere. It's a floaty, scary feeling. Like an astronaut floating without being able to communicate or connect with any ship. In the end I realized that this sort of isolating technique is what is giving people power over me and influence over my actions."
http://baguiobrahmacharislive.blogspot.com/2015/11/why-blog-went-private-for-some-time.html?m=1
Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by:
just-googling
()
Date: November 20, 2015 12:42AM
Vera City Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Rama, I don't think that photo is old Sid, but
> this one is at the same location:
>
> [URL=http://s78.photobucket.com/user/Yodaplanet/me
> dia/8947098_orig_zps1fohrxyg.jpg.html][IMG]http://
> i78.photobucket.com/albums/j104/Yodaplanet/8947098
> _orig_zps1fohrxyg.jpg[/IMG][/URL]
Ha! The body language in this old photo seems to be like this:
[b]Siddha[/b]: Whoa I want to be just like this man with people worshiping me and bowing down before me.
[b]AC Bhaktivedanta:[/b] I'm not so sure about this Siddha character ... maybe I made a mistake initiating him .... but he did give me 10 thousand dollars!
-------------------------------------------------------
> Rama, I don't think that photo is old Sid, but
> this one is at the same location:
>
> [URL=http://s78.photobucket.com/user/Yodaplanet/me
> dia/8947098_orig_zps1fohrxyg.jpg.html][IMG]http://
> i78.photobucket.com/albums/j104/Yodaplanet/8947098
> _orig_zps1fohrxyg.jpg[/IMG][/URL]
Ha! The body language in this old photo seems to be like this:
[b]Siddha[/b]: Whoa I want to be just like this man with people worshiping me and bowing down before me.
[b]AC Bhaktivedanta:[/b] I'm not so sure about this Siddha character ... maybe I made a mistake initiating him .... but he did give me 10 thousand dollars!
Ian Koviak new article
Posted by:
Rama Das (slave name)
()
Date: November 21, 2015 08:52PM
Ian Koviak has written more on his blog. Ian is very brave to be so open about the Baguio Butler cult boys school and the Chris Butler cult in general. Ian's bravery lies in being so honest about the traumatic and psychologically disturbing aspects of being raised within this cult at a boarding school.
Through being open and transparent about his personal experience, Ian has left an invaluable testimony that can serve to help the multitudes of cult born kids who may hopefully seek out this information one day.
http://baguiobrahmacharislive.blogspot.com/2015/11/recap-on-why-blog-started.html?m=1
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/21/2015 08:54PM by Rama Das (slave name).
Through being open and transparent about his personal experience, Ian has left an invaluable testimony that can serve to help the multitudes of cult born kids who may hopefully seek out this information one day.
Quote
Ian Koviak, november 20th 2015
1991-96: Years that gave shape to the rest of my life
In 1991 I lived in a all-boys ashram of the Science of Identity Foundation, a cult under the direction of Christ Butler, Siddhaswarup Ananada Paramahamsa, or known to his disciples as Jagad Guru. In this school, we were taught to worship this man as a god on earth as well as a bunch of other dogma and baseless philosophies.
We woke at 4am and took cold bucket showers, we chanted mantras and listened to lectures by the guru. We had an otherwise normal academic program and sports, but otherwise our time was spent in some way practicing the vaishnava path of so-called love and devotion.
My time there was filled with lots of happy memories, along side traumatic ones. It was far from normal and lacked a sense of balance and nurturing needed for a well-rounded upbringing. We were raising ourselves and rarely forming ay healthy relationship context or realistic idea of the world around us beyond what was fed to us through books, lectures, and teachers.
4 years later I left the school and started my life of utter confusion, angst and paranoia without as much as thinking that it had anything to do with those 4 years as a young teenage boy. And boy was I wrong. As time went on I witnessed the odd patterns of behavior I had and the unnatural ways of thinking and processing the world around me and my relationships. My belief systems were completely locked into the way of thinking I had been taught was "right" and "the way".
As the years went on I tried to track down a few of my buddies from there and discuss these things. I had a hard time getting anyone to come forward and talk (maybe people moved on, maybe they stayed in the cult, maybe they were scared or made them remember things they didn't want to). This site is an attempt to start a conversation. What went wrong? Why were some of us affected and others seemingly went on to live a normal life? How did those few years affect the rest of our lives? Do we regret all of it? Was it right of our parents to allow such a thing to happen? These are just a few of the questions I have. I'm not looking for outright bashing if that's not what your feelings are. Certainly everyone perceived their time there differently. I now that I have fond memories and at the same time, I see the double edge sword it has played in my life. The insanity it has reeked and the misinformation, drama and feeling of disconnectedness that i still carry and try to make sense of to this day.
http://baguiobrahmacharislive.blogspot.com/2015/11/recap-on-why-blog-started.html?m=1
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/21/2015 08:54PM by Rama Das (slave name).
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