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terrenaut
It was just pointed out to me that the result of Cultactions' activities has been to increase Science of Identity web presence ten-fold, if not more.

Yeah, but it is mindless repetition of the same old quotes and garbage.
Rick Ross still remains the #1 internet source on cults in general, with 246 pages on Chris Butler!

If Cultreporter's site does not return, other's will take its place.
Lots of people have their eye on this cult besides ex followers.

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terrenaut
I think that people will leave SoI and tell others, and the behaviour of the people within SoI will have a self-limiting effect. This forum has been a great way for stories and experiences to see the light of day, and I hope it continues.

I agree.

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terrenaut
I have stayed there on a couple of occasions and found Linda Harvey to be very kind and welcoming. I am not sure what you mean by "as a front". If someone from the Wwoof-ers is working there in the gardens, for example, they are welcome to take in as much of the program as they desire, or none of it..whatever they wish. The programs are there, no-one is told what to do. There are regular yoga classes, and there are regular classes on bhakti yoga. If a person wishes to learn about these things, they are available. It is not as if there is any chance of hiding the fact of "Hare Krishna', since that is the main chant going, and any lecture tapes or videos being played are unmistakably Jagad Guru.

The gardens take a lot of work, but they are not huge. the work experience at Sacramento is real enough. I guess she became one of his disciples by being a devoted student and pleasing her spiritual master. You could always write to her and ask her. :)

UD was always a kind and generous person.
She seemed a really good mom too.
Hanging out with her and her family was always fun.
Her husband KJD was really cool too. (now divorced).
I liked her a lot. She was super passionate without being fanatical to me (at the time).
Zealous with a twist of sweetness.
She's the one who taught me the phrase,
"You can catch more bees with honey than vinegar."
I wasn't into catching "bees" so it seemed a silly aphorism.
She was just talking about getting along with people
(and not about "recruiting" in to the cult, as some people will read into this...)

But nice people perpetuate bad systems
and can be complicit in wrong doings
without realizing how much harm they really are doing....................

Is she a victim or a perpetrator?

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Dassi


But nice people perpetuate bad systems
and can be complicit in wrong doings
without realizing how much harm they really are doing....................

Is she a victim or a perpetrator?

I struggle with this one. I see a lot of kind and decent and loving people involved in SoI. I also see that they are perpetuating a lie. So..are they knowingly perpetuating a lie in order to gain something? Some of them seem very well off materially so that could be true, but others are poor and giving a huge amount of themselves (and their paychecks if they have one) to spread the philosophy of SoI. They are not gaining anything it would seem, except the approval of their spiritual master. Giving up your whole life for approval that may or may not be there, to me this seems like abuse and I definitely see these people as victims. Where Uddhava fits into this, I cannot say. She is spreading a lie, and supporting Chris Butler, and that is a wrong thing.

Some are definitely perpetuating The Lie for material gain. There are those within SoI who break the rules very casually, having affairs, cheating people, engaging in illegal practices... presumably with CHRIS BUTLER's approval. Obviously they stand to benefit from the whole SoI scam, and I would like to see them brought down. But the little guys, I just think they need a lot of help. You can't help people who do not wish to be helped though.

"You sound like a UN Peacekeeper =)." Dassi

Thank you Dassi, although it is of course easy to be "impassionate" and "objective" towards people and about matters in which I have never personally suffered....my record in my own thread, (where I am far "closer" to the issues) would probably not quite qualify me as a peace-keeper.....("Mary Poppins with a Kalishnikov" is more the style I aspire to, there....) I hope you would consider doing the same for us, in the event debate became hopelessly entangled with personalities....among the former JesusChristians.

As you remark,

"But nice people perpetuate bad systems
and can be complicit in wrong doings
without realizing how much harm they really are doing....................

Is she a victim or a perpetrator?"

I like Terenauts take on this issue and would agree that the longer you stay (or the "higher" you get), the less likely it is that you will be able to remain "nice")....any cult feeds overtly off the idealism of others, while it covertly seeks to manipulate their weaknesses.....Most members would have originally been "nice" in some respect....Even in the instance of "Chris Butler" and "David McKay" (who I consider, are ultimately victims of themselves).... while I of course cannot speak in relation to Chris there was once was a "nice" (if fatally flawed!) David, that I met and interacted with.....

(..its jsut that these two particular victims feature a little low on my personal priorities, these days...)

TO:
freeatlast 1-10-2007 10:17pm page 123
Om shanti shanti shanti 1-11-07 4:21am page 124


I am very sad to see alot of disinformation on these threads mostly from people that barley know what they are talking about. Mostly woofers who stayed at the center who were treated kindly by those who were there to turn around and bad mouth those people and didnt take the time to find out the truth. I have much respect and feel for those who have genuinely have had a bad experience with SoI, SIF whatever you wanna call it. But I must clear up a bunch of ramblings that I have come across. First off, if you are wondering if I am a follower of Jagad Guru Siddhaswarupananda Paramahamsa the aswer is YES. I feel that so many people here trying to give out the names of initiated diciples and where they live is irrelevant to what trauma people have had. Uddava Dasi yes indeed lives in Sacramento (carmichael) and yes she is married to a polish guy. Her divorce was due to normal problems that array in most marrages like distrust and other personal that I will not indulge for the benifit of those who seek to use this info for damaging one reputation. As far as the house next door it does NOT belong to Ravi. Ravi lived in fair oaks with his wife who's name is Mala Dasi...NOT Pam like someone has told you. And Pam is not her birth name eigther. Yes they are Knickerbockers and no they're children did NOT go "crazy". They are simply getting an education. One is in Law School and the other has a B.A. in Poly Sci. and NO they dont actively participate but do still have much respect for the teachings of Jagad Guru. As for Ravi's 16yr old Daughter who was pregnant. She was NOT 16yrs old she was 21yrs old. She just looks fairly young. Which she was married to a guy for 2 or 3 years until they divorced which I will not say why but I can say that its not due to the Center or the teachings. I do know that they divorced and he went away due to how its hard to be around a person goin thru something like that. But since has returned and is an active member of the center. I do know what his name is but I will not give that out eigther as he is a very nice guy and wouldnt wanna bring any hardship on him from those who only seek to do just that. I can say that Ravi's daughter's Husband was introduced to Jagad Guru thru her and has been a very loyal follower. We are actually good friends. As for Ravi and his Wife Mala Dasi they are a very nice couple and Ravi was living with other people due to complications with their marrage but since things have been worked out. It souds like alot of divorcing but the fact of reality is that 50% of people that do get married get divorced. Same is true for the follwers of Jagad Guru as they are all humans like the rest of us. As for Phenap Das. Why anyone would want to know the whereabouts of him is beyond me. Phenop is a very kind and gentle person and would give you the shirt off his back if you needed it. As would many of they other people that I have encountered. I am aware that there are people who give it a bad experience and I have met them but dont let them ruin my experience. And I dont wanna name names to be offensive to those diciples. I would be very weary of things that are posted here and to not take things that seem to target people personaly, serious. Cause most likely it was written by a woofer who had barley knew anything about these people and their personal lives. Just as your neighbors know you but they dont know you personl life and its not like you endulge every thing to them cause they live next door. The secrecy comes from mostly people who wanna do harm and damage reputations of very decent people. I am under the understanding that ISKON did have alot of scandle going on and that there was a problem with child abuse and other things of that sort. But as far as Jagad Guru sleeping with his diciples is perposterous. People from Katyani to the Gabbords all have forged their own way in life with education and smart business deals like most other prosperous people in the world. They just so happen to have a connection with Krishna and Jagad Guru. The reason for all the so called "Homophobic" teachings is because this day in age being gay is the cool thing to do. The christian church, catholic church all have the same teachings about homosexuality is bad and against "Gods Teachings". Jagad Guru is just more blunt about it. I feel that alot of these postings are here to attack those who cannot defend themselves or even care to. But never the less alot of it is rubbish. All of these people mentioned Uddava Dasi, Phenop, Ravi, Mala Dasi and all others are very serious believer and whos to say that they are wrong for believing what they believe or who they choose to follow. As for those who have suffered greatly I am greatly sorrowed to hear this and its is in all aspects of religious teachings from christans to catholics, protistants,Etc, Etc. And yes a couple of bad apples can give the bunch a bad name. As far as the Health food stor Down To Earth and the people who work there. No they dont use attraction to intice people nor do they funnel they monies back to SIF, Soi. I am pretty sure they do donate some money back but it is purely by choice and not manditory and I do know this for a FACT not BS fallin outta my mouth. Maybe its the perversion of the person precieving that one is using attraction but I do know these young boys and girls DO NOT engage in illicite sex before marriage. And yes it is taught that sex if for having children but like said we are humans and of course they have sex on a regular basis like everyday people. I am not hear to down people just to clearify that alot of folks on here have no idea what they are talking about and they seem to give out personal info as if its gonna help anything. I am pretty sure that you would want any of your personal info put out about you. So lets keep it to what this post is for. Those who have been distressed. thank you. I am open to answer any questions that any may have

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Mary Poppins with a Kalishnikov" is more the style I aspire to, there…

Well Malcom, I am a recovering Pollyanna. Are there any Pollyanna Anonymous groups out there?

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Even in the instance of "Chris Butler" and "David McKay" (who I consider, are ultimately victims of themselves).... while I of course cannot speak in relation to Chris there was once was a "nice" (if fatally flawed!) David, that I met and interacted with.....

I and others agree that Chris is ultimately a victim of himself, but no “boo hoos” coming from here. Z was always making the case for a progressive mental illness.

Here’s a song dedicated to all you Exes out there! Didn’t come out till 1999, but would have loved it sooner when I left the group!


Tina Turner
[youtube.com]
When the Heartache is Over lyrics
[www.lyricsmode.com]

Part of "cognitive dissonance" has to do with not being able to see things as they really are.
It's about seeing or being told the truth and still excusing the contradictory behaviors and fallability of your guru.
It's about adopting a whole new set of belief systems that go against what you always knew to be true.

For example, we were told that we were not a cult and yet it has all the ear marks of a cult.

We were told that people who question or complain about CB are just demons and materialists, and yet we know these people were no such thing. We are told not to associate with them because they will contaminate us. We are told not to desire spiritual gain or salvation and yet we live in fear of people who have doubts or minds of their own!

We were told that we are not fanatics, and yet we experience fanaticism daily and CB has a twisted rationalization for every situation. We are told it's the followers fault and could not possibly be Jagged Prabhufrauds! But they are serving his every command and whim and philosophy! It makes no sense.

There are hundreds of examples on this and the other website and forum.

"Cognitive dissonance is a psychological state that describes the uncomfortable feeling between what one holds to be true and what one knows to be true. Similar to ambivalence, the term cognitive dissonance describes conflicting thoughts or beliefs (cognitions) that occur at the same time, or when engaged in behaviors that conflict with one's beliefs. In academic literature, the term refers to attempts to reduce the discomfort of conflicting thoughts, by performing actions that are opposite to one's beliefs....

"Maintaining conflicting principles (e.g. logically incompatible beliefs) or rejecting reasonable behavior to avoid conflict can be increasingly maladaptive (non-beneficial) as the gap being bridged widens, and popular usage tends to stress the maladaptive aspect. Cognitive dissonance is often associated with the tendency for people to resist information that they don't want to think about, because if they did it would create cognitive dissonance, and perhaps require them to act in ways that depart from their comfortable habits. They usually have at least partial awareness of the information, without having moved to full acceptance of it, and are thus in a state of denial about it. This "irrational inability to incorporate rational information" is perhaps the most common perception of cognitive dissonance, and this or another example of extreme maladaption would appear to be underlying many conceptions of the term in popular usage."

[en.wikipedia.org]

Maybe the woofers were selfish ingrates.
But theirs was just one story.
Maybe they really did see things as weird as they really are ...
...and followeres are just so used to the maladapted life that they can't see the truth.

You are wrong kcon; there are hundreds of posts here from people who do know the truth about Chris Butler and his group.
Most want to remain annonymous and move on with their lives and not be hassled by the cult or any anti-cult,
but feel it important enough to let people in on the truth.