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initiate
We allow ourselves to be manipulated into believing that we can never reach the exalted spiritual levels of our guru.

From what I remember, J.G. always made it a point that he WAS saying that "anyone" could attain his level, that "Siddha was not special", and that what Bhaktivedanta thought was that we all could and should become "Spiritual Masters", simply by following and passing on the teachings.

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gulag
Any more information about this organization's fervent enclave around Sedona, Arizona. They have a video studio there and a rather plush building for chanting. Very subdued and practically invisible presence in the community.

I think they used to have a vegetarian restaurant in Cornville or Cottonwood, AZ, which is SW of Sedona, but I think it went under. Of course it's been some years since I've been in contact with those folks. I did visit them a few times.

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initiate

Hi googling!
I've been reading a website about ex-Ramtha followers. Their experiences mirror many of our own, particularly the anxiety and depression, feelings of betrayal and loss, feelings of being duped and ripped off of their money, and feelings of just not ever being good enough.

I can certainly echo the feelings of just not ever being good enough. But then, you would always say, ok, but I'm not supposed to feel good, I'm supposed to feel lower than straw in the street right? Just like Chaitanya's prayer. But then it's like, OK, but I couldn't really be feeling that way, because then I'd be a pure devotee, and there's no way I can be a pure devotee, and even if I was, how could I tell because I'm supposed to feel like I'm a piece of shit right? But somehow feeling like that I'm supposed to also be experiencing spiritual bliss.

It's really kind of a difficult mindf*ck, all told.

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regina
You thought the toe-nail story hard to believe.
How about this? And it is a first-hand observation, not hearsay.

A kid had a pair of old socks, worn by Wai Lana. The kid felt "blessed" to have them and wear them.
Is this abasment and misdirected devotion or what?
The worn-out socks of the Guru's wife?

I can vouch for the truth of that type of stuff when I was around, around '99. Any leftover remnants that the guru touched, etc. His empty water bottles, old clothers, etc. Crazy, huh?

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hummusman

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initiate
We allow ourselves to be manipulated into believing that we can never reach the exalted spiritual levels of our guru.

From what I remember, J.G. always made it a point that he WAS saying that "anyone" could attain his level, that "Siddha was not special", and that what Bhaktivedanta thought was that we all could and should become "Spiritual Masters", simply by following and passing on the teachings.

Hi hummusman,
The “party line” here ("Siddha was not special" etc.)
was used to manipulate followers.
Tell ‘em that EVERYONE could become a pure devotee, etc.
I was around old Sid a lot, not just one meeting at a gathering.
He was the alpha dude.
Even those that were elevated (in his opinion)
to the level of pure devotee
as was Katyayani and Sudama got demoted.
How is this possible? Think about it.
It’s not possible because it is all bullshit, that’s why.


All the old timers have an elaborate set of excuses
and rationalizations for all of the inconsistencies.
A script for every doubt or crack in all the untruths.
Otherwise they have to face up to the fact
that their life and belief system is a sham.

The fear thing also kicks in ---
fear that you will commit spiritual suicide.
Maybe your whole life was all wrapped up in it.
Maybe all your friends and family are wrapped up in it.
To look at the truth becomes a huge and painful sacrifice.
I had to walk away from a few friends I really loved.

I too got involved at a young age.
At the time I did not realize how vulnerable I was.
The good thing is that I did not leave behind family
in the cult.
My beloved non-devoteeee husband still had
his critical thinking skills intact.
I can not imagine how very painful and difficult it must be for kids
born into this cult if they take the “pill” that wakes them up from the matrix.

But this has all been said before.
Bottom line is that everyone I know who has left
(and I know some heavy duty “serious” people
who gave over their whole lives at some point)
ALL say, without exception,
that their lives are better off because they left the cult.

But it does take time to recover.
And you need to be patient with the process.
One powerful therapy session helped me.
Others need more.
The support of my family and friends helped too.
Going back to school and working a real job helped.
Finding other spiritual outlets has helped others.
Some have returned to the religion of their fathers
Or other devotee type sects.
Some have dumped it all.
Others have opted for more private spiritual practices.
But no one regrets leaving
once the lies have been exposed.

For me, I left
because of the crazy letter blaming
ALL his disciples for his wife’s head injury.
We were fucking thousands of miles away!
Like they didn’t have enough money to hire a professional contractor
To put up a roof!!!!!!!!!!!?
We were also spiritually damned for not giving enough money
when we were barely making it.
It was his hypocrisy of Sid’s marrying the wife of a disciple.
It was his consistent lack of compassion for
all the good and sincere people who served him
with their loyal hearts and souls
only to be ripped apart and publicly humiliated
for some tiny oversight or misunderstanding.

Oh - but how we ate the shit….
We were supposed to feel like shit.
It’s for our own good…
You know the mind fuck plot by now.
I woke up and looked around
at the stinking piles I was sitting in
And split for good.

Happy to live a clean and productive life.
The air of freedom is fresh.
My family is cult free.

Good luck on your journey.

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hummusman

Yes I've been following this board that long, trolling, afraid to post even though I desperately wanted to ...

Maybe I'm misusing the term "trolling" there ... sorry. I just meant that I was sort of "virtual lurking" --- just reading without saying anything. I guess trolling is a more active form of disruptive posting, well rrmoderator posted a whole LONG definition of it about a year and a half ago that I just read.

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hummusman

The actual injunction is this.

If one blasphemes God or his representative one should do one of three things.

1. Defeat the blasphemer in argument so that he understands his error and is corrected.

If Number one is impossible
2. Cut out the tongue of the blasphemer (not murder him)

If both are impossible
3. Go out of the range of his speech.

In the history of Vaishnavism number two has never been used. There are no such cases recorded that anyone had their tongue cut out by a devotee because they blasphemed.
.

Nice for you for getting out - be careful about getting recruited again. There are plenty of people who prey on those who want to keep their belief and do away with the bogus guru.

I wouldn't take anything that Initiate said seriously, he was revealed to be a fraud. Flame away, it's true and the faceless masses can never change it.

Number two has been used - Sulochana das was murdered and it is really just splitting hairs to say that the injuction says... Injunctions say a lot of things and neither Chris Butler or his followers are too fussy about following those to the letter.

Obviously they aren't going to mutilate someone and leave them around so that they can still write down what was done to them and who did it or point them out in a line up.

Also there are more than 3 or 4 sites about Chris Butler. Try about 20 000 his web prescence has gone through the roof if you seach specific terms. It won't be enough but he has managed to get away with it for this long and he will die a very rich man, but before he does I know someone he would definitley have killed if he knew where to find em.

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SoI Kills
Nice for you for getting out - be careful about getting recruited again. There are plenty of people who prey on those who want to keep their belief and do away with the bogus guru.

I wouldn't take anything that Initiate said seriously, he was revealed to be a fraud. Flame away, it's true and the faceless masses can never change it.

Number two has been used - Sulochana das was murdered and it is really just splitting hairs to say that the injuction says... Injunctions say a lot of things and neither Chris Butler or his followers are too fussy about following those to the letter.

Obviously they aren't going to mutilate someone and leave them around so that they can still write down what was done to them and who did it or point them out in a line up.

Also there are more than 3 or 4 sites about Chris Butler. Try about 20 000 his web prescence has gone through the roof if you seach specific terms. It won't be enough but he has managed to get away with it for this long and he will die a very rich man, but before he does I know someone he would definitley have killed if he knew where to find em.

Thanks for the heads up. I'll try to be careful.

Initiate was revealed to be a fraud? Was that on this board? I'll have to catch up on the reading ... it's quite a long thread, 245 pages worth now. I was only around 30 or 40, with a couple later ones that I skipped forward too.

Searching on Chris Butler brings up a lot of other stuff, jagadguruchrisbutler.com comes up #12.

20,000 that's a lot .... 20, maybe even 50 I could see if you count alot of the businesses or web presences of his disciples or subsidiary businesses. How do you get 20,000? Just curious.

And who is this that he would "definitely have killed" ?

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Even from the contemporary inscriptions it is gathered that fines were inflicted for four offences of speech. It is to be noted that for offences of this nature scale of punishment was determined according to the superiority or inferiority of the caste or Varna. Special favour was given to the Brahmanas as they were the apex of the social pyramid. Thus a Brahmana had to pay 50 Panas for abusing a man of Ksatriya caste, 25 panas for a Vaisya and 12 panas for a Sudra. But when a Kstriya reviled a Brahmana he had to pay 100 panas as a fine, a vaisya 150 to 200, and a Sudra received corporal punishment for the same offence. Though for abusing a virtuous Sudra a Brahmana had to pay a nominal fine, it was considered no offence to abuse a Sudra devoid of virtue. Narada declared that a Brahmana and a king were exempt from censure. SO, for censuring a king the punishment was cutting the tongue and confiscation of entire property, while for censuring a Brahmana, men of other castes were to be heavily fined and the Sudras had to suffer tiscal as well as corporal punishment. For insulting members of the upper classes a Sudra had his tongue cut out. For pronouncing terms of contempt a red hot iron was thrust into his mouth and for advising a Brahmana about his duty hot oil was poured into his mouth and ears.

Crime and Punishment in Ancient India pg 66

[books.google.com]

The claim that this punishment has never been used in the history of vaishnava culture is unbelievable. There is no suggestion that this cutting of the tongue is metaphoric nor was this non literal definition ever told to me in the cult.

While Initiate claims that the person should have their tongue cut out (not murdered) it is explained in the purport of Bhaktivedanta in text 17 of the forth canto in the Srimad Bhagavatam:

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Translation:

Sati continued: If one hears an irresponsible person blaspheme the master and controller of religion, one should block his ears and go away if unable to punish him. But if one is able to kill, then one should by force cut out the blasphemer's tongue and kill the offender, and after that one should give up his own life.

Purport:

The argument offered by Sati is that a person who vilifies a great personality is the lowest of all creatures. But, by the same argument, Daksa could also defend himself by saying that since he was a Prajapati, the master of many living creatures and one of the great officers of the great universal affairs, his position was so exalted that Sati should accept his good qualities instead of vilifying him. The answer to that argument is that Sati was not vilifying but defending. If possible she should have cut out Daksa's tongue because he blasphemed Lord Siva. In other words, since Lord Siva is the protector of religion, a person who vilifies him should be killed at once, and after killing such a person, one should give up one's life. That is the process, but because Daksa happened to be the father of Sati, she decided not to kill him but to give up her own life in order to compensate for the great sin she had committed by hearing blasphemy of Lord Siva. The instruction set forth here in Srimad-Bhagavatam is that one should not tolerate at any cost the activities of a person who vilifies or blasphemes an authority. If one is a brahmana he should not give up his body because by doing so he would be responsible for killing a brahmana; therefore a brahmana should leave the place or block his ears so that he will not hear the blasphemy. If one happens to be a ksatriya he has the power to punish any man; therefore a ksatriya should at once cut out the tongue of the vilifier and kill him.
But as far as the vaisyas and sudras are concerned, they should immediately give up their bodies.

[www.krishnamedia.org]

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The attack comes in the wake of a statement on Saturday by state Power Minister, Arcot N Veerasamy, who threatened black flag demonstrations outside BJP offices in Tamil Nadu against Vedanti’s statement that he would give a gold reward to anyone who cut off Karunanidhi’s head and tongue.

This is a news report from September 24th 2007 that was the result of Karunanidhi making a comment about Rama.

[www.indianexpress.com]

I haven't researched this subject but it appears it takes place much more often than others have claimed on this thread.

Read the thread to find out more on Initiate. It's not that far past the 30th page he gets banned.

Search "Siddhaswarupananda" instead of "Chris Butler". Before Chriskcon.com was created there were few hundred results. A month later this shot up into the thousands. Blog sites, classified ads, tag sites, video sites, . There is an article about it on the cultofbutler site which includes a sample of the many domain names they created, with similar quote content to the sites you mentioned and other advertisement sites that were found.

[cultofbutler]

Recently we contacted google in relation to the spam and it went down from over 26000 down to almost 12000.

Australian School of Meditation also spammed and has about 4000. Brandon Raynor has sites in every country his company exists in and for good measure he has created many more:

therapeutic-massage-school.com
massage-therapy-schools-courses.com
thefreedomride.com
brandon-raynor-massage-ausbildung.de
intamassage.com
Brandonraynor.co.uk
massage-courses-london.com
massage-class.com

The list goes on and on. They spammed many search terms as soon as the site went up.

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hummusman
And who is this that he would "definitely have killed" ?

I think you might be able to take a guess.

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hummusman
From what I remember, J.G. always made it a point that he WAS saying that "anyone" could attain his level, that "Siddha was not special", and that what Bhaktivedanta thought was that we all could and should become "Spiritual Masters", simply by following and passing on the teachings.

I have heard Chris Butler say all kinds of things like this, but who is the "anyone" that can attain to this level? He considers himself to be the only representative of AC Bhaktivedanta Swami out of almost 5000 disciples and there is not one of his own disciples apart from perhaps his wife who is as glorified as himself. Of course to live up to the actual level of Chris Butler viewed without the brainwashing is attainable by your average chimp and even they don't tend to sling as much faeces around.

I didn't give the chapter. The quote in the last post is from "chapter 4" in the Srimad Bhagavatam fourth canto text 17:

www.krishnamedia.org/e-books/Srimad-Bhagavatam_Canto_04.pdf