Has been a really LONG time since I've been on here.
Hope you are are doing well.

Vera City...
thanks for the link to Ol' Jivan singing...
If you can even call it that!

Old Jivan indeed...
and getting Moore pitiful as the years pass....
couldn't help myself for the pun :)
He is now upon his fifth wife...one Jolanda Krommenhoek.
Where she came from, who knows.
They were 'married' just outside Austin Texas in 2009 on the Moore Family land.
John performed his own ceremony...cause he's all cosmic & stuff.
None of his 5 children were invited...hmmm...nor did they even know about it!
I told the eldest 3...guess what, your father is married...again.
He's also still doing the cosmic guru gig at the Lotus Pond Meditation Center near Sacramento as well.

Also has an online web photo album as John Moore...oh gee, his real name:

John & new wife

and has a Facebook page:

John on Facebook

Featuring some all time favorites as 'Friends'.
For awhile John's Facebook page was completely 'open'...
and all Friends & photos were available to the Public at large.
Then someone must have said, 'wake up'...and now it's more private.
That's where I got the wedding photos from.
Got himself Public Picasa web albums instead...
they're such media hams, they can't help themselves!

John's 'salary' seems to be quite adequate...
there are family videos of him traveling in Europe,
having a home in the mountains, etc.
Apparently, once you become guru-cosmic,
and a major henchman for Chris, money is no problem.
Would be interesting to know exactly "who" pays for John's lifestyle & possessions.
Appears to be better than any 401K plan I've ever seen!

So that's my John Scott Moore aka Jivan update.
He's the only deranged person I bother to keep up with, only from time-to-time...
simply because of his 3 eldest children, whom I am proud to call my friends, family, & companions.

BTW...
I find it strange that people continue to call Chris Butler anything but, Chris Butler.
That's his name...the one he was given at birth.

I will not likley be back on here for a long while again...

Peace be with you all ~

Hey Shanti2

Nice to see you. Yep, I found ol' Jivan's Facebook page a while back. You are right, those guys just love being in the spotlight! Follow the friends lists and you will find the whole stinking crew. I wonder what happened to their "Let's pretend we all live in the old Vedic society"? Looks like the new mandate is: Get lots of slaves, Get lots of Cash, F*ck like bunnies, spread that gene pool around. Seems to be working out pretty well for them, all those lovely homes and cash and lots of toys. ( Did I mention the slaves?) Oh yeah, give me that old time religion!

*Ka-Ching*

There is a lot of bitterness after all these years. Let it go. Religion has always had its quirks. I'm surprised to see so many people from the 70's still in the fold. I find that interesting. But everyone has free will to make their own choices. I don't regret having gotten involved. I do regret staying involved for about 8 years. One year should have been sufficient. But there were some good people in the mix and some interesting experiences along the way. Live and learn.

RadhaGovinda:

"...bitterness..."?

People have every right to point out the abuses and exploitation in groups called "cults" like this one.

Attempting to categorize legitimate concerns as "bitterness" seems fairly ridiculous to me.

Please understand that personally attacking members of this board personally is against the rules you agreed to before posting here.

Frankly, Chris Butler appears to be a fairly typical ego maniacal, con man and/or "cult leader" to me.

The allegations against Butler are quite serious and don't deserve to taken lightly at all.

Whoa, whoa! I am not attacking anyone. I've just been reading the posts and that's my personal opinion regarding some of the emotions displayed here. We can agree to disagree. I do agree that there is a lot of exploitation, as I have found in all religions to one degree or another.

[forum.survey.net]

On initiation Chris Butler bestows a 'spiritual name' which his disciples become known by, typically a Vedic word which corressponds alphabetically to their original name. He also chants a mantra on their japa beads and returns them in exchange for the promise that they will chant a set number, usually sixteen, of 'rounds' a day for the rest of their lives. A 'round' is one 'Maha' (great) mantra (ie - Hare Krishna, Hare Krishna, Krishna Krishna, Hare Hare, Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare) on each of a set of one hundred and eight beads which takes with takes about two hours a day.

Disciples are to be deferred to by students in the abscence of Chris Butler, which is typical as he is increasingly reclusive and uncontactable by all but a select few. They act to discipline through meeting among themselves and organise recruitment and projects.

Despite Chris Butler's personally absent spiritual guidance copious instructions are issued by him through his network of secretaries and staff in Hawaii and in his writings and recorded lectures. Disciples rely on contacting him indirectly through these means and issues which are considered important are brought to his attention through his secretary.

Students have had to demonstrate sufficient belief in Chris Butler to become progressively more exposed to his teachings, association with other devotees and involvement in his projects. Most long term students do not contribute a significant amount of money or have been displeasing to Chris Butler in some way. Not being initiated does not provide for liberation, creating an imperative to be as pleasing and devoted as possible.

Some disciples have taken advantage of this situation by soliciting money from students for investment and pyramid schemes, developing their businesses via free labour and manipulating sexual favours and money from students in exchange for recommending them for initiation. Chris Butler has shown no interest in these issues when they are brought to his attention beyond directing that all money should be sent directly to him.

New people are defined as those who are not deemed 'serious enough' by the controlling disciples to be given anymore than superficial access to the spiritual nature of the organisation and Chris Butler's teachings.

If a person becomes involved when they are aged beyond their twenties they are regarded with suspicion and may never progress above open classes simply because Chris Butler preaches that the older a person is without becoming his follower the more degraded their consciousness has become. Other factors which are considered is whether a person has a spouse or children that do not attend, whether they are regular attendants and if they have any assets or skills that are useful to service.

Chris Butler has an estimated twenty thousand 'devotees' with confirmed prescences in Australia, Belgium, Canada,China, Czech Republic, England, France, Germany, Hong Kong, Ireland, Lithuania, New Zealand, Phillipines, Poland,Russia, Switzerland and the United States - particularly Hawaii, California, Arizona, New Jersey, New York, Washington and Texas.

SoI meditation and yoga centres, which serve as the primary means of recruitment, operate under various names. Typically titles are based on the location (eg- Australian School of Meditation) or favour the names of 'Chaitanya' or 'Gauranga' (eg- Chaitanya Mission and Gauranga School of Meditation). Names which contradict this general practice have also been documented (eg- Mantra Meditation in Hawaii and Gokula House in Melbourne,
Australia).

SoI also carries on recruitment through dedicated 'outreach' operating in public spaces, such as libraries, community and youth centres, member's private homes, university campuses, through the WWOOF (World Wide Opportunities On Organic Farms) project, Brandon Raynor Massage Schools and Down to Earth 'Lifestyle Centres'.

Subliminal indoctrination is attempted according to the belief that exposing 'karmis' (non-believers) to the sounds of Chris Butler chanting and the consumption of 'prashadam' (food that has been ritually offered to the deity
Krishna).

Based on these beliefs SoI has established Wai Lana Yoga, which features the chanting of Chris Butler - credited as Siddha, Ajita's Vege Chips, the Down to Earth food chain, Healing Noni Juice and a multitude of smaller scale food service and musical projects, including Chris Butler's own failed rock star aspirations.

RadhaGovinda:

You come across as someone that has come here to play spin-doctor for Chris Butler in an effort to minimize whatever damage he has done.

The fact that other religious groups may hurt people doesn't mitigate what Butler has allegedly done or the victims left in his wake.

Your opinion is noted, but flatly rejected, as little more than an attempt at apology and spin.

I do remember we used to steal a lot of stuff. Mostly small stuff like toilet paper and flip-flops. Although I don't know that bigger trysts like bank robbery would have been discouraged if we had had a good enough plan. I also remember Siddha getting angry once when we were proselytizing at a post office on Kauai. One of the devotees informed someone who was getting into their car that they had left their glasses on the roof of the car. Siddha said that he was just going to use those glasses to read karmi material, so we weren't doing him any favors. A lot of silly stuff like that went on all the time. I am sure there were more serious offenses going on, although I was mostly oblivious to it all. Quite a few people did give up their inheritances.

rrmoderator:

Like I mentioned in my first post, I'm surprised that so many of the early followers are still in the fold. I just figured everyone had gone their own way eventually. Sorry if you think I'm spinning stuff. Just sharing from my own perspective from my own personal experiences. I never witnessed a murder or sexual abuse but that doesn't mean it didn't happen. Anything could be justified. I do appreciate you letting me have my say even when we don't see eye to eye. I love hearing other views and I used my actual initiated name just in case anyone recognizes it from the olden days.

the early followers that are still in the fold are there because their life of exploitation is too hard to give up. I seriously doubt whether the "advanced devotees" believe the "Chris Butler is God" stuff.

The lives of 'advanced disciples' is pretty nice. Living in their so-called Meditation Centers, with slave labor for the upkeep and chores, donations coming in to pay the mortgage, the power trip of having people bow down them, not to mention the constant traffic of attractive and personable people to entice the senses.

So yes, you wonder how it took you 8 years to get out, when 1 year should have been enough? I have no answer for that yet, as it took me a good 10 years to come to my senses, and even then it took another couple of years to re-adjust my brain and my heart.

I too saw people give up HUGE amounts of money and personal property to Chris Butler. I think maybe those people stick around so they don't have to face what a huge mistake they made, they SO need it to be real to justify giving away the farm. I think I stuck around a lot longer than I wanted to, just to avoid facing that I had made a huge mistake. It is never pretty to admit to yourself how badly you have been tricked.

The next generation of these original devotees are quite a f*cked-up lot. They grew up with parents who put a stranger first, parents who swapped partners fairly regularly, parents who did not care to ensure any stability for their kids while they were giving it all away to CB. The kids who did not rebel were married off young so they could produce more slave labour, and the kids that did rebel, had to start all over making their way in the world with nothing. Some of them are doing really well, some..not so much.

I do think that CB needs to be exposed for taking people's money and property. I know you feel that people *should* have free will to make their mistakes and move on, and sure....religion is always a minefield, and people get hurt. This thinking, however, is just a way to deflect responsibility for abuse from the perpetrator, Chris Butler and his minions, and on to the victim. Free will is only free when a person knows what is really going on. As you say, "I never witnessed a murder or sexual abuse, but that doesn't mean it didn't happen."


There was a HELL of a lot going on that the minions didn't know about.

Anyway, I am glad you got out and you seem to have recovered nicely. Congratulations.