Quote
VoxVeritasVita Das
quote: " how other people can allow themselves to get sucked into that reality?" I have often asked myself the same question. How is it that seemingly normal people with normal or perhaps above normal intelligence
can actually believe the whole "Butler as Guru" package, and believe it for so many years, has always escaped me.
The message itself was never bad. The reality is, in this case, that we must all question the messenger.


I was around several of the devotees who were very near to and sometimes in the inner circles, especially the ones involved in direct personal service as well as direct contact on his many, never ending, always changing, bottomless pit of uncompleted projects. I found many of them to be kind and caring, it was a pity that their boss was not. Still they did as they were told, over and over. There were others, however, who left much to be desired. I remember seeing the mats on the floor with a bit of foam on top that was the bed for a few of the single men at the old warehouse. They were worked hard and I know they had to be physiclaly hurting when they had only
cardboard and foam for a bed. But the Guru, he had the finest of matresses and while many of his followers shivered in the cold months in Cottonwood and down in Twizel, he & his consort were getting to wear $300.00 Eddie Bauer jackets. In the meantime, what were the minions
rewarded with? Being called horrendous names, in the case of the women (which makes me wonder- he must really hate women to use one of the more caustic and vile of words in the English language, ergo I must submit to you all, he must be a mysoginist) or else they had to wear bags on their heads. So why do they believe?
This is a dysfunctional relationship, not unlike the master who kicks the dog over and over, yet still the dog will come back to get any scrap of food or care from the same hand that beats it. You have to ask what personality type accepts this situation?

I have to question this post of yours. You accept that devotees are "seemingly normal with normal or perhaps above normal intelligence" and you also say that "the message itself was never bad". So why do you then ask what "personality type" accepts this situation?

You must know then, that there is a much deeper process at work. It goes way beyond a personality type accepting stuff, that is only the beginning. Yes, a person needs to be a thinker, disillusioned with society perhaps, looking for deeper meanings, looking for some personal satisfaction, something that makes them feel good, ... yes. But that describes millions of people and therefore can only be starting point. The journey from there is a complicated emotional dance that is very adroitly manipulated from the top down. Ordinary people really cannot see it coming, until it is getting to be too late. The process is very well described in many other posts so I will not go into it all over again.

The problem I have with your post is that you assume that only certain people will go along with CB's cult, and only because they have a personality flaw "kick me again, master". I think you fail to see that *anyone* can fall prey to the process, and therefore the process needs to be shut down. I also feel that you are blaming the victim instead of the perpetrators, and really...that just sucks.


As I have said on other posts, this cult will probably not attract too many new members off the street anymore, but I don't think they are looking for that. The second generation is multiplying like rabbits, CB has all the slave labour he needs out of that. The digital age has shed some light on their practices and they are scurrying underground, no more "hare krishna" but it's all Yoga, don't you know?

Lets put the pressure where it belongs, on CB and his long-time disciples and keep this in the light of day, and stop writing it off to pathetic personalities as willing victims. thanks

My honest opinion on this is yes and no.

I could be wrong, but there are willing participants in this scheme, and if you look at the benefits, there are. A lawyer in the cult got his lovely wife from joining the group and the clientele to participate as victims of injustice, he very much needs in his practice, to support his lavish lifestyle. He also have got no short of willing helpers to serve in his law firm for free, in a form of devotional service. If you engage him in a talk, he's just as average as just like anybody else, but being married to an elite disciple, all he has to do is scratch her back and his back get scratched too, not just by her, but by her minions as well. Ask Krishna Katha where he thinks he would be, had he not joined this group? Probably a struggling sweaty tennis instructor, not the senator that people look up to now. His family is like the royalty in the cult. In every chapter of the cult there always are these royalties, from Hawaii to California; from Poland to Philippines. Most of the time, these are the people that become the elite forces in the group.

Secondly, no. Unfortunately, there are those who simply wanted to escape the darkness of this world. Like moths in the night, they were simply got lured by this small beacon they thought to be a true light. And there are plenty of beacons out there, not just SoI. And they are not there by chance; they are meant to lure these poor souls. It maybe desperation, infatuation or stupidity. Whatever the reason is, adults will choose whatever they want to belong to. And it's in their every right, which in the constitution of every democratic society is guaranteed absolute protection. The problem is, when there are children born or dragged into the cult by these brain-dead parents. Like I said, more often than not, in courts, the religious rights of an individual trump up the rights of a child as stated in the UN Declaration on the Rights of the Child. Moreover, in the eyes of the court, abuse usually means physical bruises, or sexual acts, not the psychological damage or the stunted societal growth religious cults bring to the children.

Well, I think it is a given that those who have gained financially are not victims, they damn well know what kind of lie they are living. I think we can all agree on that, but they are gaining financially off the backs of the little guys, the underlings, the 'students', and it is those to whom I refer when I say 'victim'. I was a bit annoyed that Vox chose to portray those people as somehow personality-challenged enough to be asking for it. Like the whole setup was their own damn fault.

You know, you say that adults can choose what they want to belong to, and that is correct, but what if what they choose to belong to is a huge lie, a mirage, a deception so deep that what it appears and what it is, are poles apart? How can a person use their free will to choose, if they do not know what they are choosing? A cult is a cult because it is deceptive, because it lures people with false promises, fake personalities and manages to hide all that behind a clever construct. So yes, there is a small element of choice, but it is not a choice based on fact.

100% agreement here that the kids have no choice, no chance and need help. How will they get that help? Ideas?

Quote
VoxVeritasVita Das
quote: " how other people can allow themselves to get sucked into that reality?" I have often asked myself the same question. How is it that seemingly normal people with normal or perhaps above normal intelligence
can actually believe the whole "Butler as Guru" package, and believe it for so many years, has always escaped me.
The message itself was never bad. The reality is, in this case, that we must all question the messenger.


I was around several of the devotees who were very near to and sometimes in the inner circles, especially the ones involved in direct personal service as well as direct contact on his many, never ending, always changing, bottomless pit of uncompleted projects. I found many of them to be kind and caring, it was a pity that their boss was not. Still they did as they were told, over and over. There were others, however, who left much to be desired. I remember seeing the mats on the floor with a bit of foam on top that was the bed for a few of the single men at the old warehouse. They were worked hard and I know they had to be physiclaly hurting when they had only
cardboard and foam for a bed. But the Guru, he had the finest of matresses and while many of his followers shivered in the cold months in Cottonwood and down in Twizel, he & his consort were getting to wear $300.00 Eddie Bauer jackets. In the meantime, what were the minions
rewarded with? Being called horrendous names, in the case of the women (which makes me wonder- he must really hate women to use one of the more caustic and vile of words in the English language, ergo I must submit to you all, he must be a mysoginist) or else they had to wear bags on their heads. So why do they believe?
This is a dysfunctional relationship, not unlike the master who kicks the dog over and over, yet still the dog will come back to get any scrap of food or care from the same hand that beats it. You have to ask what personality type accepts this situation?

I can understand why these statements are disturbing to some and appear to be "blaming the victim". Not everyone understands how cults work, nor the psychology of indoctrination. So give Vox the benefit of the doubt. His questions are valid. They are the same questions that parents, family, friends, and teachers ask. Until you study and learn how cults work, it looks like this from the outside. "How could you be so stupid!?" "Do cult members have some sort of personality defects?" But, normal people are so much more easy to manipulate than you can imagine, especially without an awareness of how we are influenced. We think a sign of intelligence is the ability to perceive things correctly, but you will find no shortage of intelligent people in cults. There are times in our life when we are more vulnerable or susceptible to undue influence, but it is not a personality type.

Vox, I would also question the messages along with the messenger(s). Within every evil philosophy or political system that exploits people, the essential message is always coated it what appears to be good and universal principles. Followers perceive only this smoke screen under the careful machinations of the cult operations. The truth is never meant to be seen.

Vox, here are a few articles written by Margaret Thaler Singer, Ph.D. that may help answer your question, "How is it that seemingly normal people with normal or perhaps above normal intelligence can actually believe the whole "Butler as Guru" package, and believe it for so many years?"
This is a good place to start your research:

"other people can be manipulated but not me"
undue influence
thought reform programs
phsychological persuasion techniques
criteria for thought reform

Quote
terrenaut
100% agreement here that the kids have no choice, no chance and need help. How will they get that help? Ideas?

Some people blame religion for the ills of the world, which is understandable, considering the many evils religion brings to the world. Especially in enslaving the desperate and the weak, and in breaking up families. Man, that's the worst. It's so easy to blame. But what blamers forget, is why people cling or take refuge in religions in the first place. People choose religions because of the darkness in this world, most of the time. And they are the most vulnerable people on Earth, especially when they bring the children along. Personally, I do not know what to do to help, not that I did not try. As far as going through the social system, it's always an uphill battle. Basically because the rights to religion is so fundamental to our democratic way of life, the courts would rather stay out of the issue, like as if their hands are tied. I think people outside religion share the guilt why other people choose to cling or take refuge in religions. For the children I guess, the best option is just to love them. I know I'm being philosophical here, but when children are showed quality love, more often than not, the tougher the chances for religions and religious cults to lure them. Even if they're in already, the chances of them getting too involved are lessened. And if this translates to societal proportion, less and less people will get to the trappings of religion. Just an opinion. But it worked for me.

to VoxVeritasVita das: Sorry if I jumped all over your head. I can see how you would be wondering how ordinary people will willingly put up with cruel treatment. VeraCity was most kind to include some links to useful reading, perhaps you can understand that a bit better.

It is true that we should question the messenger. You are also correct that Chris Butler is not acting as a loving spiritual master. How he gets away with it, how he is supported in it even, makes no sense to an onlooker. It only makes sense within the confines of a cult.

Your observations are valuable, and I hope you will continue to share your experiences, so that anyone else who reads this site can be fairly warned.

-terrenaut-

Thank you to all for your valuable feedback. The essence of all of this is to help warn people
about this group. I think we are all in agreement about this. I also hope that a few devotees
here and there are actually reading this thread and that maybe they might one day see what we all saw and experienced. You are right, Terranaut, that for the most part everyone involved in this cult especially the long-timers, cannot see the forest for the trees. It is their choice. They wish to be victims, fine, but leave the children out of their selfish equation. The question I asked as to how
is it that they still believe, (or any other "normal" person for that matter) was a rhetorical one. I was trying to be diplomatic about that.
I could actually unleash a very ugly tirade here against some of them in general and a few, by name, in particular, who I saw mistreat & abuse their children in front of me, but I won't.
In actuality, I saw so much that went so against my natural instincts ESPECIALLY when it came to the children, that I had to step away from it all. I had children with a devotee and very early on, I saw how the children were both regarded and treated, especially if their parents were involved in direct personal service or in working on those never-ending and seemingly random projects.
It took 5-6 years to extricate myself fully and even more for the mother of my children to do so.
I kept myself in the back, always observing and occasionally offering to help in one or another project but I never committed myself fully for my children's sake. One of us had to remain sane, or so I believed at the time. In reality a child needs both parents but more importantly, children need to be loved, wanted, accepted and cared for. They need that 24-7 and 110% and then some. Or else,
they will end up in a cult like this or worse. They could end up the child of devotees who, having been left here and there from an early age (because both parents are so involved in "servicing" the Spiritual (?) Master) suffered multiple rapes and other abuses, ended up doing drugs and eventually found herself on the streets selling her body by the time she was in her mid-teens. To this the parents were quoted as saying " She was out of control" and " She spun out". I heard those 2 sentences one too many times. One child hurt and destroyed because of this cult is ONE CHILD TOO MANY !
To that I said- not on my watch!
This was not going to happen to my sons. I took them and got out. Their mother stayed for a few years more and finally she left as well. There was no earthquake, no thunderbolt from the sky,
and I think that nurturing 2 kids and helping them grow into responsible loving adults and now parents
with their own children, where the love continues to flow, should offset any so-called "spiritual suicide" I may or may not have committed. For my part as a father I held a great responsibility in my hands to provide for my children and to care for them, which I tried to do to the best of my ability. I taught them about the philosophy as best I could and urged them to discover for themselves which path they needed to take. I showed them how important it was to go thru this life knowing that the material world was so transient and that this was not our real home, but finding ourselves in it for now, we should be as careful of it as if it were. Serve the Lord, do not take more than you need, give back always and most importantly, learn to judge people by their deeds not their words. The words of one of the great Masters comes to mind, "What you do to the least of my brethren, you do to Me."

To all of you, who in your SELFISH pursuit of escaping the wheel of birth and death, allowed ANY child to be injured, killed, raped, physically or emotionally discarded by the wayside because you were too busy serving a "spiritual (?) master" ----you have done this to Krsna !

I do have to say however, that not all parents were like that. I did run across a few who tried very hard to be good parents and to be there
for their children, and I am sure it was very difficult to balance out their devotional service with their householding duties.
Its a fine line you must walk when you choose to join this particluar cult. I always felt there should be a warning label attached to it, somehow.

I am glad this posting exists. In fact, I purposely did a search of critiques of Siddhaswarupananda Paramahamsa / Chris Butler's organization. It is sometimes good to hear what the other facets express.

That being said, I am currently informally involved with this particular Vaishnava lineage. Primarily I study and meditate via Kirtan and Japa with the organization's 2 representatives, a husband-wife team, living in my city.

For two years now I have visited their Meditation Center on and off. I have also occasionally joined their soft and humble (in contrast to ISKCON) Sankirtan chanting which they do on the streets of my city as part of their public outreach.

For those two years I too have been troubled by many of the same concerns I see expressed on this site. From a relative perspective, these Vaishnavas appear highly intolerant, almost fanatically conservative.

Yet, over time I started having insights. First off, although they offer me their path, they seem to actually do more to dissuade me from joining it than to recruit me. They bash at my attachment to my false ego, they say all the things they know will upset my "cultural sensibilities", and they lure me into their "cult" with promises of sacrificing all my material pleasures, no-sex, no-drugs, lots of hard karma-yoga, and oh yes, the lure of lures: intense bhakti-yoga to Guru and Lord Krishna. Where do I sign!?

Here is the thing with these Vaishnavas: Look at their Actions not their Words. Actions > Words. When I listen to their words I wonder, "Who are these intolerant fanatics?" When I look at their actions I am in awe: "These are some of the most pious, strong, and devoted entities I have ever met."

This is the exact opposite of most other "spiritualists": Pretty Words but Lay Actions.

The fruits of this tree are as such: the veteran Vaishnavas I have met are some of the purest, strongest, most devoted beings I have encountered. They are not slaves in any way. We who think we are free and clear are a hundredfold more enslaved to our material and egoistic addictions than these warriors of God are to their devotion.

This is the prism we must look at the Vaishnavas: is the world mankind has constructed healthy? When I look at the natural world, that is, sans the human-mind, it is Edenistic and beautiful. Enter the human mind and we have all this nonsensical suffering. Look at present human civilization: we are murdering, raping, and exploiting in every way possible ourselves, each other, and our Earth Mother at the most rampant rates we can manage with all the power at our disposal. We think we are advancing? In ways yes, but if you looked at statistics... there is so much genocide and (sexual) slavery going on this planet in this "modern era" as would make your heart shrivel to know of its extents...

So, if we are honest with ourselves we must see that we are very flawed. I know I personally am deeply addicted to my material and egoistic attachments. I think I am special. I think I am intelligent and I carry a powerful energy with which I can positively impact this world. Oh, how lucky you are all, and even God, that I offer my services to you. Haha. I am so small and so foolish. Forgetful, too...

The reality is we are a world of the worst kinds of addicts. Addicts who have come to believe that their material addiction IS life. They can just barely entertain the notion that maybe, just maybe, something exists beyond their addiction. But, better not think too much about it. That's dangerous...

Now enter the Vaishnava doctors... do you think sweet words are going to suffice in one of the highest security mental hospitals in existence?

We are grasping with every bit of strength to hold onto our material addictions. They can help you. They will cut/rip off the tumors in your Heart... However, it is not pleasant. And, very few are willing to undergo the procedure...

And, because God is infinitely merciful... you must be willing. If not, no worries. Go, Maya-devi is waiting for You, Dear Ones <3

<3<3<3

Let go of the doctrines, let go of the people... for now just chant the Names of the Lord. Nothing ill can be spoken of this. And, if you do this practice with a sincere Heart: You Will Know. This is the promise and mercy of the Lord. Ask, and thou shalt receive. Ask to not know, and He will prove to you He does not exist. Can you imagine a greater mercy? How fortunate we are!

Haribol, my relatives, Haribol <3

indigoarthur:

Please don't preach here. It is against the rules agreed to before you posted on this message board.

This message board is essentially about behavior not beliefs.

The criticism directed at this group is that it is totalitarian and exploits people.

There are numerous allegations of abuse of financial exploitation by Butler.

Frankly in my opinion he seems more like "con man" than a "guru."

Maybe you should chant less and think more.

In some groups excessive chanting becomes a device to still the mind specifically to subvert critical thinking. In this way cult leaders often manipulate and dominate their followers.