"quotesman - I'm glad to see that you are still a Vaishnava. I think that this is a wonderful process and may the Lord look with favor upon you." Hoax
Ditto. :D
"It also bothered me that some of the devotees seemed to enjoy kirtan for sense gratification. They only enjoyed real "rockin" chants. I know I am being judgmental here but how could I overcome this in FLs group where there wasn't any tangible spiritual advancement?" Hoax
There was a great sadhu, now passed on, who once said we should not chant the holy name in the enjoyer spirit as if the name is there to give us enjoyment. If one makes progress then of course real ananda or bliss (enjoyment) does manifest. However he said if we approach the name with the mentality of enjoyment we will never actually taste the holy name. He specifically said we should be careful not to introduce the holy name in such a way. And yes I have seen this in the group, it is all about personal sense gratification. The rock and roll kirtan is really just a substitute for the disco and if one is very attentive they will see this type of thing arouses mundane lust more than love. Concerning the rock and roll kirtan in front of the deities, I see it as another deviation. This is unprecedented in the sampradaya. Of course for the general public to introduce them to the name such things are acceptable. But quickly they should be given the name in the proper context. For instance George Harrison did wonders. But to make it a standard is a very bad idea. It was a cardinal sin to chant the same ragas (melodies) that ISKCON did. But in fact many of those ragas were given by Mahaprabhu Himself and they have the tendency to calm the senses and lift the spirit whereas rock and roll simply agitates the senses and lust. And in more traditional Vaishnava circles it is understood that ragas are very important. There are different ragas for different times of the day for example. It is very scientific. The agitating sound of rock and roll does not fit in the picture at all. When I first left that group and began to associate with sadhus and devotees on the outside I actually had a bad taste for the more traditional ragas, it took me a good while to become use to them. That is how conditioned to the rock and roll non- sense I had become.
Now of course I could never go back to rock and roll as a standard.
Don’t get me wrong I am not against rock and roll and listen to it on occasion. There is a place for it, in front of the deities or in the temple however is not one of them.
Speaking of rock and roll here is a great piece done by some Korean kid. Check it out. [
www.youtube.com] this Korean kid is better than Hendrix.
Utube is a place to hear rock and roll.
"I remember an answer by an advanced devotee (whom I do have respect for) to the question of what spiritual advancement means. He said it means that you want to chant all the time. Somehow this just seemed insufficient for me." Hoax
It is a fact if one makes progress in most traditions they will become more attacched to the main thing offered and practiced.. It is no different in Vaishnavism. The name is the central thing. If one does not develop attachment for the name then it can only mean they are either not following properly or they are following a bogus guru who is not teaching properly. It takes the best Professor to give the best knowledge. But if one has a dinky Professor with little knowledge that is all they will receive from him.
"Regarding the Catholic church - yes, it is an institution but FLs group is also an institution. There is a hierarchy, rules of conduct, chains of command, and so on. Is Vaishnavism supposed to be this way? What do you think, Quotesman?" Hoax
Yes there are rules in any process. And there is hierarchy everywhere. But if the hierarchy is headed by unqualified teachers then everything on down the line will be disrupted. If you go to college but your Professor is teaching you the wrong thing, then you will end up with the wrong thing. In Vaishnavism one should adopt the mood of their teacher. So if you want to be uptight at the slightest thing, agitated most of the time, always cursing people around you, making your servants pay fines etc for transgressions etc. If that is how one wants to end up then they should continue to follow FL because if they follow perfectly that is what they will become.
"Regarding the sins of priests - yes, there have been great indiscretions and cover ups. However, Quotesman is correct in saying that these are sins of men. For men are born with sin. Those who condemn the Catholic church for this therefore condemn all men, and perhaps rightly so, for men have committed and continue to commit the gravest atrocities." Hoax
Those who condemn any religious tradition based on the sins of weak men are in my opinion not seeing things very clearly. If we can show you in the Bible or the teachings of past Saints within Christianity that they teach it is ok to have sex with kids then of course we should condemn the Bible and those saints. But if it is taught the opposite and then men who are supposed to represent the Bible and those saints engage in that activity how can we blame the Bible or the process? It should be seen the same for any tradition including the Vaishnava tradition. Those who think differently are simply biased and bigoted in my humble opinion. They are angry people with an axe to grind. But sadly they cut many innocent people with their blade.
"That is why spiritual life must be a purification process. To realize that you are a sinner and beg forgiveness and try to overcome your sins. FL preaches that serving him is a purification process. I don't think anyone on this forum ever felt that they were being purified by serving him. If anything you end up feeling more stressed, resentful, and disillusioned." Hoax
Yes I agree with this. Again, having a qualified teacher is a very big part of the picture.
"I truly believe that spiritual life must involve a process of purification. To do so, one must follow the example of one without sin - such as Christ or Krishna. If you think that FL is without sin, I think you are sadly mistaken." Hoax
Yes I agree here. In many Christian traditions it is said one must become Christ like. It is really not different in the Vaishnava tradition. One who is not Christ-like should not pose as one who is. Such posing only causes a disturbance.