There really is nothing new under the sun - yournamedas you have a question in all that or do you just want to apologise for and make excuses for a group that you left?

What you have to say echoes what I have heard from SoI directly, nothing sinister going on, differences of opinion, the best thing is to move on. :roll: There is no such thing as serious student approaching initiation in SoI - what was your service? How useful were you? If you had a story that you wanted to tell I could tell you exactly how you were being exploited even if you havent realised it.

Sure there are some nice people that are in there, whether they sincerely believe or not they certainly do a good impression of it and they just want to get you to chant I am sure that every single person here thought that at one time, same with all the new people at the classes that never hang about long enough to even have to think about moving on.

Why dont you fill us in on what is true, what is news to you and what is speculation and wild exaggeration?

You still chant and you dont eat meat - good for you - I think that you would find that a lot of the people here are in a similar situation.

Your manta is interesting but the rest of t your post pretty much contradicts that. It is curious that you would try to draw parallels with the Gulf War and the government - difference though is we KNOW that George W Bush is real and he actually at least pretends to speak to 'his' people.

If you want to move on the first thing that you have to do is get rid of the mindset that there must be something wrong with you because you didnt fit into their cult, figure out what a cult is and break the cycle of dependence where you still feel the need to justify their crimes and abuses without reason.

Quote

I have been out of the group for 10 years and was a serious member for 5. As I mentioned before I was very serious and was considered an advanced student going as far as approaching for initiation. I lived in Hawaii for a while even doing personal service for JG. Some of what I have read is true, some has been news to me and has opened my eyes and some has been speculation and wild exaggeration.

How much does anyone who isn't initiated actually get to see or hear? Not much, from what I can gather. You probably have to wear a face mask, and you might hear some gossip, but I doubt if anyone who wasn't there with Sigh in the 70s at the latest is trusted with the details. Except for the kids who sign the contract so they can work on the cartoons, maybe. Have you heard about that, or would you call it just more "wild exaggeration?

MIND CONTROL MADE EASY... HOW TO BECOME A CULT LEADER.

This is the title of a video on google video.

[video.google.com]

This video is so right on it is scary...


"I used to be a negative, sinful loser... now, every day I am a winner!"

"Use deceptive recruitment techniques... 'we are a meditation center'"

"Construct your cult like an onion, with the most benign and helpful layers on the outside, and the most controlling, kooky and evil parts at the SECRET INNER CORE."

I don't want to get into a lengthy defense of using fluoride in water. There is a lot of good, scientific information on the American Dental Association website at:

[www.ada.org]

In Europe, some of the countries fluoridate table salt instead of fluoridating water.

It is important to understand that all naturally occurring water contains fluoride.

Much of the information, especially the alarming and sensational information pushed by the anti-fluoride movement on the web, is unscientific and bogus. Some of it is even crazy like trying to link water fluoridation to the Manhattan Project that gave the U.S. the atomic bomb during World War II. (As in the book "The Fluoride Deception.")

I believe that the Honolulu City Council bought a lot of unscientific baloney when they made their decision to ban fluoride on Oahu in 2004. The Hawaii Dental Association was not effective in presenting the benefits and safety of water fluoridation or in refuting unscientific claims.

Unfortunately, I was not at the hearings and wasn't able to hear and see what the public health defenders (Hawaii Dental Association and the Hawaii State Department of Health Dental Division) presented.

The important thing is that this is another hidden political issue that the Science of Identity Foundation cult is organizing around. As in their other political activity, there is a good chance that they are illegally using tax-exempt money to do it.

It appears to me that successfully banning fluoride on Oahu pushes the cult's beliefs about karma and reincarnation and tooth decay and their religious teachings and values in these areas on everyone.

There is deception at work in their efforts because they claim that they are just fighting for "pure water," but they are really trying to impose their religious beliefs on society at large.

The anti fluoride movement began as a fringe movement, originally coming from groups like the John Birch Society. I guess it makes sense that a secretive fringe group like the Science of Identity Foundation would be heavily involved in this issue in Hawaii.

Cult reporter

My post is my experience. I was not trying to introduce anything new under the sun. I am not here to defend. I came seeking help. My question was sincere and I apologize if I was not clear enough. To paraphrase, my question was “if I have an attraction to the holy name and enjoy chanting am I just continuing to delude myself as I deluded myself at one time in believing that Siddha was God’s representative? If I was wrong about that am I wrong about seeing chanting as a spiritual path? Some of it feels very right but much did not and that is why I left. I may be reading too much into it but Cult Reporter you seem to have your mind made up about me and know exactly what the truth is and what the right thing to do is. Must be nice. When you use the term cult apologist as you have in many of your posts it feels very negative and stifles honest inquiry into ones feelings. Perhaps not unlike a cult would do. I am open to the possibility that I have more to learn about myself and my experience but the “stuff” I laid out was my experience not an apology. The minute you start labeling people it colors the prism in which all future discussion is perceived. And if you are truly trying to help people your Dr. Phil, I know best, tough love approach is just going to alienate people. And I sure did not mean to draw a parallel to the gulf war it just seemed like a good example of group think. It is a powerful and little understood phenomenon.

Ok other questions…I was not intentionally leaving things out it is just I do not do this for a living and preparing concise thought in written format takes me longer than most. This thread has gone on for years so for brevities sake just an example. Opened my eyes = I did not know that Vishnava dasi was Siddha’s devotee and that he gave up sanyas to marry her. I did witness first hand how the children were treated like royalty. Asking devotees about Siddhas life was considered gossiping about your SM. Exaggerations = such as he lives in palaces and is driven around in expensive cars. While the house in Lanikai was ocean front it was small. Maybe two bedroom. And the car was a late model something. It was in fine shape but was far from a luxury vehicle. Speculation = in all of the posts I read no one ever witnessed the toenail prasadam. While maha prasadam was definitely sought after, and the toenail thread made good reading I suppose, it was speculation. The whole because you have to wear a mask he must be like Howard Hughes is also speculation. We were told he had a disease that makes him chemically sensitive. There is actually quite a bit of literature on this condition. But maybe he was making up. I don’t know. As far as wearing a mask. During my time at the gatherings at Bellows beach you did not have to wear a mask unless you were sick or had traveled out of the country. You could approach Siddha when offering a garland for instruction. I did this once and got an answer. Cult reporter says that approaching for initiation does not exist. I don’t know what your experience is but I followed the procedure as was outlined by the advanced devotees. I wrote a letter and I sent my beads up. If your SM accepts you as a disciple he chants on the beads and gives you an initiated name. A fire ceremony is then done by a Brahman. I was never accepted. My service consisted of back-up driver, one cannot have one’s spiritual master waiting around for a tow truck if something were to happen,  and standing post at the house. Which basically meant sitting in the carport in case Siddha needed something. Calling us body guards would be an exaggeration. We were a pretty passive motley bunch. Depending on which shift you took it could include bringing the dinner in in the evening or running the outside bath in the morning but mostly you just sat around and chanted your rounds and got eaten by mosquitoes, because repellent was verboten. I also worked on several business and outreach projects. I did not deal with Siddha personally but received tape recorded conversations if the instructions or more often the chastisement concerned me. I was definitely not in any inner-circle and as I mentioned gossiping was really frowned on.

I am trying to educate myself on the characteristics of a cult. However the SM disciple relationship has existed, in India for example, for thousands of years. Is it all a cult? I know little and am unsure of how much of the cool-aid I may have drank. It is limited but I can only speak to my experience. In this forum I guess that makes me a cult apologist. Man I hate labels. My questions are spiritual in nature. I am trying to find balance. I do want to move on. Perhaps this is not the forum for it.

Namaste,
yndas

hi yournamedas,
Recovery can be difficult.And I don't know what the answers are about finding religion after leaving a group.
There are books you can read ( this website lists some), and there are other resources for therapists who can help you work through your experiences.
You may find reading or posting on some of the recovery threads to be more focused on issues of recovery, and may give better resources and ideas about how to help yourself.
To quote another brave ex group member "Welcome to the roller coaster ride of recovery!"
All the best, Yasmin

Hi Yournamedas

See your inbox on this forum for a private message. (Top right on this forum page -- look for "messages")

There is a network of friends who were involved in the group and we keep contact by private e-mail. We do not want to label anyone as "cult apologist" but simply share our experiences and provide support.

:D

Dear Yournamedas,

Firstly of all it is true that there is a "network of friends" who watch this board and who would be more than happy to talk to you - although you should note that several of them were banned from here for defending SoI ie-asserting that it is not a cult and then coming back under different identities and then attempting to subvert the efforts to expose SoI by spreading false information and launching a campaign against me personally designed to supress my ability to do that. When I first came onto this board I was very trusting and open and as such was exposed to the myriad of agendas that are here. Personally I believe that one should be very skeptical of individuals who are hiding their identities while asking questions about others and who claim to want to help although they have done nothing in this regard for over twenty years, defend SoI and attempt to subvert attempts that want to see it exposed. I cannot explain this further as per the rules of this board, but I will get around to publishing about it eventually. Also this thread is heavily trolled also as I am sure that you have seen in reading through it.

Secondly I do not do this for a living either. I have lost to date about $15 000 that I do not have to SoI and post SoI to trying to get my life back on track, researching, computer expenses etc. At the current time I am looking at accessing funding in order to be able to expand and get some of my goals in cult awareness and promoting safe and open meditation and yoga practice off the ground. I cant do everything that I would like to do and what I can do I cannot do quickly enough for my liking. I only really do this for spiritual reasons although this has not been a popular concept among the circle of friends here or devotees in general. Lucky for me I was born a woman so I was designated low caste by birth, I really dont have anything to lose.

Do you really need someone to tell you whether chanting is right or wrong? There are different opinions about chanting, some say that the Western Hare Krishna movement spends too much time chanting in order to develop a philosophy. Personally I agree with this as there are very few opportunities to study the Vedas and to learn Bhakti beyond the most superficial level. What is in the West is certainly not real in a traditional sense. To be attracted to Krishna there are many more paths than the ISKCON and ISKCON derivative path (including Siddha) would have you believe. If your perspective has been limited to only this, and for many people their time with Siddha is their only exposure to Krishna Consciousness then there is a lot that you might like to find out. A devotee would say to look to the Lord in your Heart on this. The Lord in my heart is broken so I dont pretend to know any answers. For all I know and care to speculate Siddha may really be God's representative, I certainly dont think so and see no example of him acting like it, but I have not had any contact with him whatsoever and there is no clear indication of what his instructions actually are. For all I know he may well not be accurately presented by his disciples. Of course though his disciples should be his representatives, despite Jeannie Bishops disclaimer. Is it all a cult - well it would appear likely given the history of the Gaudiya Vaishnava line being founded in direct response to Buddhism which gave people more freedom to bring them back into line with what was beneficial to the Brahman class. The Krishna Consciousness religion has all of the characteristics of a cult as part of their belief system, whether by accident or design who can be certain? There is a lot of history there and potential for conspiracy.

In moving on I will say that I have not found any association with devotees particularly beneficial or enjoyable. I have personally come to the conclusion that devotees are very selfish and largely ignorant people that follow a doctrine so complex and contradictory that it is not possible to attain to the standards which they aspire to. There are lots of places on the net where you can talk to devotees, yahoo groups, Gaudiya Repurcussions, maybe PADA. If you want to talk to me you can press the email button, I can probably help direct you to some people that are still devotees and ex-Siddha, cannot post their details here.

Siddha's Living Conditions = There are pictures of one of Siddha's houses on www.cultofbutler.com it certainly looks like a mansion to me. I have a friend who saw one of his dwellings when he was in Australia that was very simple and even had an outdoor toilet (and only one double bed :o ) In consideration that all of these houses are custom built for him to specific standards, fitted out with air filtration systems and other special conditions and the tab picked up by his devotees it is not apparent how he lives simply according to the qualities of a Vaishnava. There is evidence also of how he was living in New Zealand which is also on the website, including that the whole inside of the place was covered with aluminum foil, and this is derived from court documents. Other accounts of former devotees are that he was arrogant and demanding, some of these which have been posted here.

Toenail Prashadam = The toenail prashadam was witnessed by a devotee in New Zealand who had her diary taken as evidence by police in the inquiry there. Apart from this fact I would dismiss it as specualtion too since it was brought here by shady characters.

Siddha's Disease = I have heard disciples speak on this often although the reason seems to vary from he is sick from practicing Kundalini Yoga to he is sick from taking on the karma of his followers. Kundalini was the most frequent explanation that I heard. I have never taken up the claim that one has to wear a mask, I agree with you that this is BS. I personally saw the instructions to a devotee going to Hawaii about having to be in certain areas and heard from the devotee that I was living with about the classification system also. My best friend gave a garland to Siddha when she was a devotee and was in personal gatherings many times while he was here and never saw masks. It is because of BS such as this that this forum has been lacking in credibility and I was not convinced to heed warnings that Zelig (Rescate) and co purported to have been making. A lot of what is here is certainly wrong, I know this also and I have said it here a couple of times.

Cult reporter says that approaching for initiation does not exist = What my experience is that I have said many times that I would follow Siddha's instructions if I had them and I have never had them. I recently spoke to an advanced devotee and Jeannie Bishop, within the past couple of weeks and both of them had no idea of how to get a letter to Siddha. This does not inspire my belief that it is possible to approach him for initiation. Before I became critical, still in the phase of believing that maybe his disciples were responsible I wrote several letters begging for instruction, and they were never answered. It was the same situation with my friend who was actually still remembered years later by senior disciples as being a nice serious devotee. According to Jeannie Bishop Jagad Guru does not involve himself in who becomes his student which is a clear indication to me that he is not a genuine spiritual teacher and certainly not teacher of the world. Your experience would appear to back up that he is only interested in the people that are useful to him ie- there in Hawaii to be able to labour for him. I know for a fact the only followers that rate in Australia are the ones that send over a lot of money. We may have a simple difference of opinion on this subject but I am sure that we could probably agree that it is misleading and inconsistent with the example of former archayas to refuse to teach those who one is not deriving some benefit from, and not to mention ridiculous to claim to be Jagad Guru while doing this.

It is interesting to hear the details of your experience. It is unfortunate that there are not a lot of people that are willing to provide specific details and that it does allow for speculation to carry on, although there are some people that prefer it that way. Most of what I get told about what people were doing there is off the record that I cannot publish it. I have seen some personal letters and stuff that are pretty disturbing but I do not have any to publish. I am guessing that you must have been one of the younger guys that maybe now you could be about the same age as me (27) If that is a good guess then being a young devotee is pretty hard and there are not really many around apart from those that were born to it.

I hope this makes up for my earlier response. Nt

Shame that this got buried under all their spam since it is the only decent looking effort so far www.jagadguruchrisbutler.org

On the links page of this site there is five more that have already been seen here, clearly they are improving and the spam campaign is still going strong with the ads getting updated as they expire fluctuating at between 4 and 6 hundred in any given week.

Why a guru that cant answer a question would need 6 websites and a hell of a pile of spam is anyone's guess - oh wait.. :twisted: