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cultreporter
If you would ever like to discuss spiritual issues beyond the scope of this thread I would be more than happy to communicate with you and will listen to what you have to say and consider it. I have stated before though that I do not read purports by ACB. The Holy Name is pure and speaks for itself. It is hypocrisy to sugguest that Krishna has perfect knowledge but he needs ACB to tell us what he [i:4615459370]really[/i:4615459370] meant to say.

Well you can accept what you like and I have no problem with that. In my previous post I had some links to commentaries to scriptures by different gurus in different traditions (not gaudiya vaishnavism) and they showed that they did the same thing as ACBS. They made even longer commentaries (purports) to verses then ACBS did. My point was to show that what ACBS has done is done in all vedic traditions when gurus comment on scriptures, it is the norm. Also I had a link to show that ACBS used about 70% of other peoples writings in his purports. In other words the way he made commentaries is that he used the commentaries of the prominent gurus from the tradition (Visvanath Charavarti Thakura, Jiva Goswami, Baladeva Vidybhusana, Bhaktivinoda Thakura etc) and then added a little bit of his own, that is the tradition in gaudiya vaishnavism when it comes to commentaries on scriptures. I am not saying you have to accept the commentaries of any of those prominent gurus of the past, but what ACBs did is in fact what all the past gurus have done in not only his tradition but in all vedic traditions.

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As I stated I read Scripture, I have read loads of it, but I do not read the purports. If someone can find the exact same point in the Scripture that has been written in the purport then I will accept it no question. That should not be a difficult task, but often it cannot be done. I have been debating Vaishnavas who have spent many years studying for quite a while. I made a post a while back that showed the difference in translation of a verse of "As It Is" and how a pertinent reference in the purport was not even contained in the origianl verse. At the moment I do not have the time to go through the whole thing to highlight the inconsistencies in the translations and purports. Even if I did the philosophy of disciplic succession and bonafide spiritual masters (not to mention that I am a lowly woman) would ensure noone would read what I had to say anyway.

There are lots of opinions on how to translate sanskrit from scriptures properly. What ACBS did in his translations was to use the translations of the previous gurus of his tradition and then translate that into english. If he would have done all the translations himself he would have never been able to get so many books done in such a short period. The reason he did do so many books in a short period is because mostly what he did was translate into english the work of his guru and the previous gurus who had translated the original sanskrit into bengali. I posted a link to show all of the various sources of his translations.

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Siddha was initiated in July 1971 [www.prabhupada.com]

He left ISKCON in 1978.

That is a lie told by Siddha. Siddha left in 1976 before Prabhupada died and right after he had been appointed co-GBC of Hawaii with Guru Kripa. I joined ISKCON in 1977 in Honolulu and I was told all about Siddha and how he had left ISKCON and had started his own thing. ACBS tried to convince him to come back to ISKCON but Siddha was probably frightened of Tamal Krishna who supposedly threatened him.

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Tamal Krishna is condemned by many non-ISKCON devotees and ISKCON reformists as a blasphemor for writing that ACB was senile and attatched and yet the first thing that anyone defending him invariably has to say is that he was an 80 year old man that was too kind.

I didn't say he was senile. He was old and sick, he had diabetes as well as a few heart attacks. He was immersed in doing his books and didn't have the energy nor the time to oversee 8,000 people. That was why he created the GBC. He said he didn't have the time to manage the society so in the beginning of the 1970's he created the GBC tyo manage ISKCON. I don't care if you don't like him or what he did, to each his own. But at least try to be objective and learn the truth of what went on instead of relying on speculations and rumors.

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Your statements about the GBC are also incorrect. When I was a new Bhakta I got a really cool A4 poster from PADA (Prabhupad Anti Defamation Association) of the eleven successor gurus that they were all offenders in the way I stated. I used t have it on my wall when I was in SOI.

PADA is one person; Puranjana Das. He is the source for so many false stories because he wanted revenge for what happened to him when he was in ISKCON (he was a leader of the "gopi bhava club" (google it) and was humilated when it was ordered shut down as a deviation by ACBS, some of the GBC ratted him out to ACBS. No one takes him seriously because everyone knows he has mental problems. In his own mind he is the leader of the anti-GBC crowd. In reality the rest of them hate him because he is a habitual liar. This is his battle against the main anti-GBC crowd (IRM=Iskcon Revival movement) [www.iskconirm.com] What he does is mix fact with fiction. Some things he say are true, not that he is the source of the info, he simply copies it from other sources, but mostly he just makes long meandering rants which are mostly made up.

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Here they all are here : [www.harekrsna.org]

Here are some sentences from that page to show his constant fabrications

"Jayapataka: a self-appointed bogus GBC ISKCON "guru" clone (clown), preaching homosexual pedophile philosophy, "

No one in Iskcon preaches "homosexual pedophile philosophy", but what Puranajana does is to make these crazy claims because that person was a friend of Bhavananda. So that makes Jayapataka a person who preaches ""homosexual pedophile philosophy"?

"Rameshwara: (Robert Grant) soon to gift "leather miniskirts" to 15 year old statutory rape girlfriend, Sankritan "prostitution parties", is co-partner in Laguna Beach Drug dealing, helping in the murder of Sulochana"

I was there and I know the girl, she is a friend of mine. She was not having sex with Rameswara, she was friends with him, she was also friends with me, she was a really nice really smart girl and a dancer (Rukmini). The rumours spread by Puranjana are based on a single incident i.e. Rameswara was spotted at a mall with the girl. From that one bit of information Puranjana has created "leather miniskirts" and "statutory rape". Then other people repeat what he makes up and it becomes "fact". Furthurmore Ramesvara had no "prostitution parties", he had nothing to do with the Laguna Beach drug ring. I knew them also and they went to jail. They gave some money to Ramesvara but he was in charge of the L.A temple, they were giving the money to the temple, he had nothing to do with how they gained their money. Those guys were not in Iskcon anyways, they were ex members who became drug smugglers (hashish) and then donated a portion of their proceeds to L.A and Laguna Beach and San Diego Temples. He is suspected by some to have aided in some way with the Sulochan murder through not trying to stop the murder, but the FBI never went after him because everyone involved said he wasn't involved.

Ayways Puranjana tells more lies then facts. You can believe him if you like, but people who know him and know the facts know better. Anyways I'm not trying to pick on you, it's just that if you want credibility you have to be careful not to be seen as person who doesn't know what she is talking about on many aspects of the tradition and history. I'm not here to preach to you or anyone, I, like you, want the truth of Siddha to be known to the people he is sucking the life out of. If you want to be taken seriously by them then you need to be sure you are not insistently saying many mistaken things which are well known to most followers. I am trying to help you, no need to vent on me.

[www.myspace.com]

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You removed 3 links. 2 of them were to the writings of other traditions then gaudiya vaishnavism in order to show that what ACBS did in his commentaries was normal and done by all hindu traditions. The other link was simply to show that the claim that ACBS did not stick to the teachings of his own tradition are not true. None of the links were meant to be "preaching". They were all to set the record straight. It is one thing to criticize ACBS for things he did, but if you are going to state things that most everyone in the tradition knows to be false, and then reject the rebuttal, then that can only harm cultreporters credibility. Cultreporter makes so many accusations against Siddha and she wants people in that cult to learn the truth about him, then she makes a bunch of uneducated and misinformed accusations about ACBS that everyone within the tradition knows to be false. So what she is doing is losing credibility in her expose of Siddha to his followers by making so many wrong statements about ACBS. It's about credibility. Luckily there are many other ex followers of Siddha who have come forward.

I am not in charge of this forum so how rrmoderators decision to delete your links affects [i:40d8bbe55a]my[/i:40d8bbe55a] credibility is a pathetic and weak argument that displays your obvious agenda. You can not defeat the refutation of your own argument so now you attack the arguer.

I was pretty sure that you would get reproached for preaching sooner or later which is why I invited you to discuss the issues with me if you so felt that I was in need of an education. I would publish your links on my blog and you can write a commentary a rebuttal whatever you like. I have always extended this invitation to [b:40d8bbe55a]ALL[/b:40d8bbe55a] people including followers of Siddha. It is not like I am difficult to contact or I do not identify myself and exactly who I am. That is more than I can say for you or any of your GV buddies that come in here trying to say what is what.

I stated to you repeatedly that I do not have the time to research ACB. I make no apologies for that. My point is that he made bogus gurus left and right - why don't you address this? He did what he could is a weak excuse. A spiritual master is meant to be perfect is he not - how ISKCON went down is hardly a perfect picture is it? Rick Ross has a great archive on ISKCON that anyone interested can take a look at. They are nothing more than an abomination. This would make him the founder-archaya of abomination - the fruit of the tree.

That said your argument has fallen apart because you wade in wanting to defend ACB's honor - but oh no you don't mean to say that everyone has to read his books or be a follower of him :roll: Why don't you tell us again how Siddha was with ISKCON for only a short time or how boo hoo ACB was just an old man that couldn't keep control of his followers :cry: That's right[/color:40d8bbe55a] because both of those statements are bogus.

Can you find the equivalent of the quote you gave me from ACB's purport in the Scripture? It should be there if he is such a true representative of God.

Do you want to try to tell us again how I was wrong when I stated that all the successor gurus were of bad character?

Would you like to explain the simple lack of logic that if GV is such an unbroken tradition how ACB came to break away from it and start his own show in the first instance?

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Bhaktivedanta Swami on Gaudiya Math

Followers were instructed to avoid Gaudiya Math followers and literature. He spoke of them being incapable of preaching lower class, envious of him and even non-human and criticised them for involvement in politics and having wealth.

"you should not have any intimate connection with them as they have gone against the orders of my Guru Maharaja."

"So I have now issued orders that all my disciples should avoid all of my godbrothers. They should not have any dealings with them nor even correspondence, nor should they give them any of my books or should they purchase any of their books, neither should you visit any of their temples. Please avoid them." 1.

"Regarding the Gaudiya Math, our position has nothing to do with them. They cannot do anything and if somebody does something, they will be envious. That is the nature of third class men." 2.

"Our big, big godbrothers in India, they could not preach Lord Gauranga's name all over India. They are simply inclined to criticize me, that my students call me Prabhupada. They could not do anything practical and tangible. They are satisfied with a temple and a few disciples begging alms for the maintenance of the temple... So, we can understand that they have all become sudras. How can they have interest in Bhagavad-gita. Although some of them have been born in brahmana families, but by quality are all sudras." 3.

In Krishna philosophy, particularly Bhagavad-Gita there are four classes of men described. The highest, the Brahman's are the priestly class followed by the Ksartras, the warrior class, the ? the merchant class and the Sudras servant class. 4.

All along my godbrothers gave me only depression, repression, compression--but I continued strong in my duty. So never mind there is some discouragement, continue with your work in full enthusiastic Krishna Consciousness attitude of service." 5.

"Regarding the Gaudiya Math books being circulated there, who is distributing? Who is sending these books? The Gaudiya Math does not sell our books, why we should sell their books. Who has introduced these books? Let me know. These books should not at all be circulated in our Society. Bhakti Vilas Tirtha is very much antagonistic to our society and he has no clear conception of devotional service. He is contaminated. Anyway, who has introduced these books? You say that you would read only one book if that was all that I had written, so you teach others to do like that. You have very good determination." 6.

"You should not write anything to Madhava Maharaja's camp. You may have talked many things with Mangala Niloy but why write him in black and white. The letter must not be sent. Their policy has been all along to suppress me and take credit for himself. Their proposal for cooperation is a myth. They haven't done anything which is cooperative. You know in a recent article they managed to write in such a way that Madhava is doing the world movement and we are his subordinate. From the beginning that has been their mentality. So there is no possibility of cooperation with them. Rather you should avoid strictly meeting with them. They are not after preaching but material gain and reputation and adoration. Otherwise why they are non cooperating with me? So no cooperation is possible. Do not think or indulge in loose talks. Be careful always. Let us do the duty of propagation sincerely and seriously on our own principles. Krsna and Srila Prabhupada Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura are our only hope and they and helping us. If anything thing has to be done it is to be talked on the higher level between Madhava Maharaja and myself, but I know his mentality is different and there is no possibility of cooperation." 7.

They are not even ordinary human being. They are envious of me, and what to speak of make a judgment by estimation? They're envious. Enviousness is immediately disqualification of Vaisnava, immediate. He is not a human being. 8. Yeah real humble :roll:

"In India some of the important members they have collected huge amounts in the name of the Society and spent it luxuriously. I wanted you all my experienced disciples should manage the whole institution very cleverly without any personal ambition like ordinary materialistic men. The Gaudiya Math institution has become smashed, at least stopped its program of preaching work on account of personal ambitions." 9.

"My other godbrothers they are concerned with litigations, politics, and diplomacy, so what is the pracara? As far as I am concerned I have the blessings of my guru maharaj. I do not need anything else. That is how I went to your country, just to try to carry out his order. By his blessings it has come out successful." 10.

1.Srila Prabhupada's Letter to Pradyumna 02/17/68 , Srila Prabhupada's Letter to Visvakarma, 11/9/75
2.Srila Prabhupada's Letter to Yamuna 11/18/70
3.Srila Prabhupada's Letter to Niranjana 5/21/73
4.Link to Bhagavad Gita
5.Srila Prabhupada's Letter to Gurudasa 8/29/72
6.Srila Prabhupada's Letter to Sukadeva 11/14/73
7.Srila Prabhupada's Letter to acutanand 6/8/74
8.Srila Prabhupada's Room Conversation with a Reporter in Johannesburg 10/16/75
9.Srila Prabhupada's Letter to Karandhara 10/8/74
10.Srila Prabhupada's Letter to Subala 10/15/74

Please post the details of my education that you have to make the statement that I am uneducated. That's right I am but a woman - perhaps I could come and darn your socks while you tell me what I should really think. My education from Gauidaya Math comes from Bhaktivedanta Narayana Goswami Maharaja who has written a whole book called Our Gurus: One In Siddhanta, One In Heart that contradicts ACB multiple times. I believe you call it clearing up the confusion. :roll: Fact is we started out with one scripture and now we have to put up with everyone who comes along to call themselves a guru's interpretation of it and just to keep the clear imperative of diciplic succession going what this one [i:40d8bbe55a]really[/i:40d8bbe55a] meant and that one [i:40d8bbe55a]really[/i:40d8bbe55a] meant.

At the end of the day GV is the IKEA of religion it all comes in a box with clear instructions but you can make whatever you like out of it. It is no wonder that gurus like Siddha exist when this is where they have come from once more the fruit of the tree.

You want to give me examples of Hindu tradition - I am not a Hindu. If you accept Hindu tradition as valid then you must also accept wives going on the funeral pyres and the cruel social structure of untouchables. Krishna devotees (who recognise Krishna as the Supreme) are not Hindus[/color:40d8bbe55a], your precious ACB said that many times. You may as well post me a link to Scientology for all the relevance that would have.

Why don't you stick to telling us about the GV tradition which you present as an expert as and tell us where it is that one can buy their initiation with money, property and followers and go from impersonalist to disciple in a few months. Where is that supported?

You want to criticise and attack me Maui? Let me spell something out to you. I am one person who hasn't even had six months to recover from cancer and lives with a chronic illness that doesn't let my body stay awake for more than a few hours at a time. I work every minute that I have and spend every cent that I have - which is not very much let me tell you out of compassion for seekers of the truth that have and may fall into the pit of Siddha's cult. I get e-mails every day thanking me from people that have the most abhorrant stories to tell about how this cult has hurt them. I have seen people hurt by it first hand. And what pray tell is the Gaudiya Tradition to sit on your butts [/color:40d8bbe55a]and pray for the deliverance of the bogus gurus and follow your belief that it is not right to criticise someone who is a guru no matter if you know they are bogus or not. Lord Caitanya hit those who were offensive with a stick among other things. Balarama broke the arms of those who were offensive to him. Lord Narasingha ripped Haranikasipu's guts out and made Himself an intestine necklace. I have the example of Vaishnavas to look to so you can pardon if I dismiss your critique of me (and not my argument) as whiny defeated garbage.

You obviously don't know a thing about Science of Identity or Siddha's followers evidently because they could not care less what I say about ISKCON. My Siksa guru adores what I think about ISKCON. They hate ISKCON. Their worship of Bhaktivedanta Swami is just a formality, a picture trotted out on Appearance Days. What they learn through Siddha of his teachings is only the basic elements that anyone could repeat and make sound good even ACB.

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cultreporter
I am not in charge of this forum so how rrmoderators decision to delete your links affects my credibility is a pathetic and weak argument that displays your obvious agenda. You can not defeat the refutation of your own argument so now you attack the arguer

That was not a response to you, if you look you will see I was responding to the moderator.

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Please post the details of my education that you have to make the statement that I am uneducated. That's right I am but a woman - perhaps I could come and darn your socks while you tell me what I should really think. My education from Gauidaya Math comes from Bhaktivedanta Narayana Goswami Maharaja who has written a whole book called Our Gurus: One In Siddhanta, One In Heart that contradicts ACB multiple times. I believe you call it clearing up the confusion. :roll: Fact is we started out with one scripture and now we have to put up with everyone who comes along to call themselves a guru's interpretation of it and just to keep the clear imperative of diciplic succession going what this one [i:645f64ac85]really[/i:645f64ac85] meant and that one [i:645f64ac85]really[/i:645f64ac85] meant.

Relax, umkay. Sometimes we need to realize just how much we know and how much we think we know. Don't take offense, I'm trying to help. From the above you seem to have faith in Narayana Maharaja as a bona fide guru, if I am wrong, please tell me. What the above does is point out what I am trying to tell you i.e. you have many misconceptions about the things you say. You claim Narayana Maharaja teaches things which are contradictory to ACBS. Yet the fact is that Narayana Maharaja calls ACBS his siksa guru and has praised him in numerous long lectures and repeatedly said he was the highest level guru. Here are some quotes from him.

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[Question:] Gurudeva, the other night you were speaking about the wrong editing of our Srila Prabhupada's books. Having heard your class, some devotees may become afraid to read his books now, doubting all his published books. They may be wondering if they are really getting Prabhupada, or someone else. Can you say something about that?

[Srila Narayana Maharaja:] They should carefully read the books of Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaja. They should read all his books. Generally there will be no doubt, but where there is some doubt, they should see his original writing. There are so many changes in Srimad-Bhagavatam also.



Some persons doubt that Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaja was tri-kalajna, omniscient. They question that if he was omniscient, how could he have given the renounced order to so many disciples who have either fallen down or will fall down very soon. They say that it seems as though he never knew what would transpire in the future. Many ISKCON leaders are thinking that he was not omniscient, and that is why he gave sannyasa to many who later went to hell.

Those who think that he was not omniscient or that he made mistakes are wrong. They are totally wrong. They are not initiated in the real sense, and they cannot understand things properly because they are not associated with any high class of Vaisnava.

"MY SIKSA GURU" by Narayana Maharaja: [bvml.org]

Don't take this as an attack simply because I point out mistakes you make. Everyone makes mistakes, you don't have to try and make everyone believe that you are right about everything single thing you have written. Why do you have this animosity? You call me a sexist because I point out things you got wrong? That is not fair. I'll respond to your blog for the things you wanted. I don't consider what I have written to be "preaching". All I have done is respond to the things you brought up.

Maui this thread has 500 viewings a day. From my end eventhough there are a lot of SOI people too cowardly to debate in any forum what I am doing regardless of it being small is very relevant to them. It is the first stone really as far as I can tell. They would love to discredit me. Choose a side but don't ever comment about me in that manner again and expect me to believe that you are on mine. If you have an objection to anything I say well and good, but I can read and I have read your message several times and I still take it as an unqualified personal attack. Your subsequent posts do qualify your original statements and make them seem not as unreasonable as they first seemed, but there was no reason to implicate me in an issue you had with rr in the first instance was there? You have attacked my character and as such damaged my work that you claim to support. Well done.

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But at least try to be objective and learn the truth of what went on instead of relying on speculations and rumors.

And Gaudiya Math and ISKCON and the BBT are all objective sources I supposse? Fact is you do not know who my sources are, and nor have you stated your qualification to make the statement that I am uneducated.

What you say about PADA may well be true, although it seems quite well funded for one person. Perhaps he is rich. If I had the resources he has to publish a regular magazine and send it free all over the world (and I know this is true because I have received stuff from them) I would be a lot more active.

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Anyways I'm not trying to pick on you, it's just that if you want credibility you have to be careful not to be seen as person who doesn't know what she is talking about on many aspects of the tradition and history.

If I want credibility - well it does seem to be only you (besides those who have identified themselves as being from SOI) that is contending that I am lacking in this. As far as I am told there are a lot of people that really like me and are supportive of what I do.

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From the above you seem to have faith in Narayana Maharaja as a bona fide guru, if I am wrong, please tell me. What the above does is point out what I am trying to tell you i.e. you have many misconceptions about the things you say.

I really wish that you would stop with the assumptions. I did not say at all that he is a bonafide guru or indicate any faith, I simply said that "this is where my education in GV comes from". I have a much more extensive and actually formal education in the Bible and can quote it for days, but I have no faith in it either. If you have read my posts and my blog you would know that I am a servant of Narasingha that primarily recognises Prahlad Maharaj as a genuine Vaishnava. I also refer to Lord Caitanya and I have mentioned Thakura with the qualifying statement that while I like his words I do not know much of his charcter. No I have no faith in any guru, and that is not to say I have non faith in them either, it is to say that most I do not know enough about to know if they warrant faith or not.

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the fact is that Narayana Maharaja calls ACBS his siksa guru and has praised him in numerous long lectures and repeatedly said he was the highest level guru

Well I love my Siksa guru with my whole heart but I still disagree with him. That book does contradict quite a few things though, the whole point of it is to address what GV followers consider to be inconsistencies between the teachings of the two. It is well beyond the scope of this thread and quite frankly boring for me to write and I am quite sure for people that are here to talk about Siddha to go into a detailed analysis.

[b:325c13155e]Back on topic...[/color:325c13155e][/size:325c13155e][/b:325c13155e]

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That is a lie told by Siddha. Siddha left in 1976 before Prabhupada died and right after he had been appointed co-GBC of Hawaii with Guru Kripa. I joined ISKCON in 1977 in Honolulu and I was told all about Siddha and how he had left ISKCON and had started his own thing. ACBS tried to convince him to come back to ISKCON but Siddha was probably frightened of Tamal Krishna who supposedly threatened him.

[b:325c13155e]If you know such details of Siddha's history with ISKCON then I wish that you would post them.[/b:325c13155e] I know that it is Siddha's claim that he left in 1978, and I don't take his word for it, but there has been no information for me to disprove it either.

What I was told by one of his former disciples was that he was offerred the co-GBC appointment but did not take it. I have seen minutes from a GBC meeting sugguesting that he be offerred a position, but no follow up information about it as yet. That Tamal threatened him is an elusive rumor and if you were there and privy to a lot of information then I would like to know what you know if anything about the temple sale/s and the story that Siddha fell down with his secretary and had to marry her. I know he had the Hawaiian temple so what happened to it when he left? Do you know who took it over and maybe I can verify with them if they are still living. Do you know or the existence or have any copy of formal records to that effect? Can you name any close associates of Siddha or any dedicated critics of him within ISKCON?

If you have personal experience of Siddha during his ISKCON days then I am sure that it at least would be entertaining and most likely enlightening as to his character.

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cultreporter

Back on topic...[/color:47827af609][/size][/b]
I know he had the Hawaiian temple so what happened to it when he left? Do you know who took it over and maybe I can verify with them if they are still living

The "temple" on Maui was on a piece of land (owned by Wayne N. and a parnter?) that eventually got [b:47827af609]sold[/b:47827af609] in order to pay for the Down to Earth store in Honolulu. (there was a Down to Earth on Maui and the original one on Kauai but the big store in Honolulu was the real money maker)... I am not sure what year this happened. They built a large "chanting hall" on this property.

The temple on Kauai was on a small piece of "borrowed" land and I suppose that eventually this land went back to the original owner. I am not sure if they got kicked off this land or if they just all faded away gradually. There was an older house on this property that housed the deities, and some smaller ramshackle shacks and a bamboo house that the devotees built.

Both temples held Sunday feasts and gatherings and sometimes a lot of the local hippies would attend these feasts. They were also growing a few vegetables on these properties as well.

Tuko says: "there are two kinds of gurus in this world - those that live in the temple and those that live in heavily guarded mansions." [/size:47827af609]

:D

Can anyone enlighten me on the following -

When deities are referred to were they ever Radha-Krishna or has Siddha always had Nitai-Gaur on the altar?

What I heard from disciples here was that Siddha said that we are not suitable to worship Radha Krishna (apparently God agrees with Siddha that we are all - especially his disciples and students - germ breathing karmi scum that can't do anything right) and must have Nitai-Gaur because they are more merciful. I don't notice any example for this though. Apparently he worships Radha-Krishna privately and occassionally gives some of his disciples various forms of Krishna for worship on their initiation. I heard of one disciple that had Jaganatha to worship and he was considered most unfortunate by several followers talking about it because (in very basic terms) Jaganatha requires multiple and very specific food preparations.

Also I am curious as to what are the origins of the chants that Siddha's followers chant as I have not heard them anywhere else. Are they traditional or did he make them up himself?

(Please excuse that my Vedic spelling is not very good. When I am not sure of a word I have tried to write it phoenetically.) If you can correct the spelling or translate the words for an article I am writing I would appreciate it (PM or email if you prefer)

Namo Om Vishnu Padaya Krishna Presthaya Bhutale
Srimate Siddhaswarupananda Paramahamsa Iti Namine

Bhaga Shri Krishna Caitanya Prabhu Nychinanda Sri Advaita Gaudihara Sri Vasidago Bhakta Vrndarn

With the number of rounds chanted the common number stated among the disciples I knew was 12. This was explained to me as Siddha gives less than ISKCON disciples get so that they will not think that they are better than ISKCON disciples. (While at the same time referring to ISKCON members among other things as "clumps of dog stool") ISKCON disciples get 16 and apparently GV adherents get 32. As far as I know the number of rounds that one is given on initiation may vary in any of the above, and each is only a minimum promise made to your spiritual master and Krishna. I am mainly just curious as to any insights into the key practices of SOI since to me they are quite inconsistent and I suspect that like most things we are learning from Sai Speaks and other sources Siddha just made it up.

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cultreporter
Can anyone enlighten me on the following -

With the number of rounds chanted the common number stated among the disciples I knew was 12....

Anywhere from 12 to 18... some got 14, and I am not sure if some got ODD numbers like 15. This was typical of J.Guru and not believing to keep everyone EQUAL, he liked to have a hierarchy, with some people higher on the ladder than others. Playing this numbers game with the number of rounds chanted on beads was another way for J.Guru to grade people according to his whims.

The other mantra goes like this:

Bhaja Sri Krishna Chaitanya, prabhu Nityananda, Sri Adaita, Gadadhara, Srivasadi Gaur bhakta Vrinda.

I think it's offering respects to the "Panca Tattva" the five grand spiritual masters in Lord Chaitanya's day...

Tuco says: "There are two kinds of spiritual masters in this world: those who have a humble attitude... and those with an arrogant attitude."[/size:e5255fe9bf]

:wink:

of course it is! Thanks Googling.

Funny then that you never see the Panca Tattva. They might have had a picture at the Nobby's Beach centre, but then it might have been the Gabbards and their five kids, they need to dust around there.

What I said earlier about appealing to material senses for the spiritual check out the poster on www.xanga.com/carisjames of ACB and Ginsberg (both appeared) so ACB was in on it and notice that it advertises in the centre "chanting magic word formations - Hare Krishna Hare Rama"

Magic[/color:e5d206101a] word formations - now there is something you don't see in the Scripture everyday :? (or any day for that matter)

That is what I am talking about making out KC to be a magical mystery tour appealing to the trippers and then criticising them for coming in.

It's always good to read Rick Ross's list of the [u:463c97e317]Ten warning signs regarding people involved in/with a potentially unsafe group/leader[/u:463c97e317].

[www.culteducation.com]

Absolute authoritarianism without meaningful accountability.

No tolerance for questions or critical inquiry.

No meaningful financial disclosure regarding budget, expenses such as an independently audited financial statement.

Unreasonable fear about the outside world, such as impending catastrophe, evil conspiracies and persecutions.

There is no legitimate reason to leave, former followers are always wrong in leaving, negative or even evil.

Former members often relate the same stories of abuse and reflect a similar pattern of grievances.

There are records, books, news articles, or television programs that document the abuses of the group/leader.

Followers feel they can never be "good enough".

The group/leader is always right.

The group/leader is the exclusive means of knowing "truth" or receiving validation, no other process of discovery is really acceptable or credible.


[u:463c97e317]Ten warning signs regarding people involved in/with a potentially unsafe group/leader. [/u:463c97e317]
Extreme obsessiveness regarding the group/leader resulting in the exclusion of almost every practical consideration.

Individual identity, the group, the leader and/or God as distinct and separate categories of existence become increasingly blurred. Instead, in the follower's mind these identities become substantially and increasingly fused--as that person's involvement with the group/leader continues and deepens.

Whenever the group/leader is criticized or questioned it is characterized as "persecution".

Uncharacteristically stilted and seemingly programmed conversation and mannerisms, cloning of the group/leader in personal behavior.

Dependency upon the group/leader for problem solving, solutions, and definitions without meaningful reflective thought. A seeming inability to think independently or analyze situations without group/leader involvement.

Hyperactivity centered on the group/leader agenda, which seems to supercede any personal goals or individual interests.

A dramatic loss of spontaneity and sense of humor.

[b:463c97e317]Increasing isolation from family and old friends unless they demonstrate an interest in the group/leader. [/b:463c97e317]

Anything the group/leader does can be justified no matter how harsh or harmful.

[b:463c97e317]Former followers are at best-considered negative or worse evil and under bad influences. They can not be trusted and personal contact is avoided. [/b:463c97e317]

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

The following excerpt from Sai Speaks is non-different from his teachings when I was part of the group. It illustrates his simplistic, cynical and bitter world view. Another example of his famous 'straw man' epistemology. sick stuff.[/size:463c97e317]

Comments anyone?[/size:463c97e317]

Tokorama says, "There are two kinds of people in the world. Those with beeper watches and those without." "OOPS there goes mine...time to see my prostitute!!"[/size:463c97e317][/color:463c97e317]

[img:463c97e317]http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j104/Yodaplanet/Sai%20Speaks/saispeakspage9.jpg[/img:463c97e317]

[img:463c97e317]http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j104/Yodaplanet/Sai%20Speaks/saispeakspage10.jpg[/img:463c97e317]

Quote
cultreporter
They would love to discredit me.

I tend to agree that Maui seems to be playing a game in order to cast doubt on your research. It may also appear that he may be attempting to cast doubt on your well researched veiws on SOI also.

We only have the word of Maui that none of the suspicious information about ACB is true so I would like to question some of the information that Maui has offered on another thread that is more relevant to the ACB topic. So Maui I direct you to continue this conversation on the thread titled 'Hare Krishna' and my post is located here:

[board.culteducation.com]