Krishna group in Hawaii
Posted by:
zelig
()
Date: December 31, 2006 04:11AM
[b:60d4f843c0]DharamRakshak ~[/b:60d4f843c0]Quote
DharamRakshak
[Thank-you Zelig, duplicity fits much better. Hypocrisy also could have done I am sure.
I have not seen your posts before Maui. I look forward to reading more.
Nice detective work Cara.
If you want to follow the posts of one author, you can click on the profile button at the bottom of a post and then click on the option "find all posts by_____ " to read all of that persons entries.
You might be interested in my post called NOT STAGES OF GRIEF BUT STAGES OF COVER UP and EXHIBIT A.
Krishna group in Hawaii
Posted by:
emntk
()
Date: December 31, 2006 08:12AM
It still is circumstanstial at the moment but there is a Willis Butler senior and one would suppose Willis Butler junior must follow. Some of the dates in Cara's last post may refer to WB snr especially around the 1920's giving 60 years between the birth of Dr. WB snr and C butler. Enough time for a second generation of Dr. WB jnr. There is not a lot of information to go on atm but we will piece it together. Given the relationship between CB and his father this may be why he is not mentioned.
On the political anti-homosexual campaign someone on this board mentioned the early ninties. During 94-95 when I was first involved in SOI/ASM the impression I had received was that all forms of illicit sex were against the four regulative principles and there was no hatred specifically towards homosexuality. There was even a disciple who was a known lesbian. So my impression was that homosexuals were accepted but having sex was frowned upon which made being a homosexual rather redundant either way. Homosexuality was rarely even discussed except on a few of Butler's lectures, but nothing major, and his lectures were freely available.
Later in 1999 I revisted the Gold Coast and the Sleaze Ball rave party in Sydney ran an advertising campaign which included images of dieties in obscene poses. Possibly not the best idea. At the same time there were devotees protesting the Xena episode which included an incarnation of Krishna. My brother was involved in designing the webpage for Alliance Against Religious Villification (AARV) which displayed pictures taken by a Sydney ASM student who had attended sleaze ball to take photos.
There were books and videos from a library with some rather unusual information which all seemed straight out of an ignorant hateful campaign towards homosexuality. It was stated that the HIV virus can live outside the body for at least 20mins or a couple of hours - for example in a public swimming pool - despite all the times I was taught this was not a fact and that a certain percentage of people who contracted HIV had not been aware how they got it. This suggested that sexual contact or blood contact was not the only method of contracting the disease. You can imagine C Butler becoming highly paraniod over this information.
Like the time Tusta had his brain tumor and CB was upset with all the disciples for not telling him that mobile phones caused cancer. I know they discovered this did not cause his brain tumor but the point is Siddha is not a wealth of common knowledge so hearing this information on HIV instantly it would have become a fact. There was a video put up as an example that was shown to nurses and doctors explaining that full-body suits to protect them from contracting HIV were discriminatory to homosexual patients with the disease. The point CB and his followers were attempting to make illustrated with such examples was that gay people do not care about endangering other people's health, all they care about is being able to engage in their 'deviant' lifestyle.
Then the homosexual political campaign of recruiting children was discussed and that a high percentage of homosexual men were sexually abused as children and felt thankful towards their abusers for 'turning' them gay. The info just went on and on with out any credible truth to it.
This was around the last time I ever really had anything to do with ASM and it surprised me when Cara had stated that lectures were hidden from new students and that anti-homosexuality was high and the political campaiging.
So around 1999 is the time when CB started to become blatantly homophobic, which is around the same time Tusta had lessening involvement and passed away.
Possibly homosexuals were responsible for the Y2K prediction not coming true. :roll:
On the political anti-homosexual campaign someone on this board mentioned the early ninties. During 94-95 when I was first involved in SOI/ASM the impression I had received was that all forms of illicit sex were against the four regulative principles and there was no hatred specifically towards homosexuality. There was even a disciple who was a known lesbian. So my impression was that homosexuals were accepted but having sex was frowned upon which made being a homosexual rather redundant either way. Homosexuality was rarely even discussed except on a few of Butler's lectures, but nothing major, and his lectures were freely available.
Later in 1999 I revisted the Gold Coast and the Sleaze Ball rave party in Sydney ran an advertising campaign which included images of dieties in obscene poses. Possibly not the best idea. At the same time there were devotees protesting the Xena episode which included an incarnation of Krishna. My brother was involved in designing the webpage for Alliance Against Religious Villification (AARV) which displayed pictures taken by a Sydney ASM student who had attended sleaze ball to take photos.
There were books and videos from a library with some rather unusual information which all seemed straight out of an ignorant hateful campaign towards homosexuality. It was stated that the HIV virus can live outside the body for at least 20mins or a couple of hours - for example in a public swimming pool - despite all the times I was taught this was not a fact and that a certain percentage of people who contracted HIV had not been aware how they got it. This suggested that sexual contact or blood contact was not the only method of contracting the disease. You can imagine C Butler becoming highly paraniod over this information.
Like the time Tusta had his brain tumor and CB was upset with all the disciples for not telling him that mobile phones caused cancer. I know they discovered this did not cause his brain tumor but the point is Siddha is not a wealth of common knowledge so hearing this information on HIV instantly it would have become a fact. There was a video put up as an example that was shown to nurses and doctors explaining that full-body suits to protect them from contracting HIV were discriminatory to homosexual patients with the disease. The point CB and his followers were attempting to make illustrated with such examples was that gay people do not care about endangering other people's health, all they care about is being able to engage in their 'deviant' lifestyle.
Then the homosexual political campaign of recruiting children was discussed and that a high percentage of homosexual men were sexually abused as children and felt thankful towards their abusers for 'turning' them gay. The info just went on and on with out any credible truth to it.
This was around the last time I ever really had anything to do with ASM and it surprised me when Cara had stated that lectures were hidden from new students and that anti-homosexuality was high and the political campaiging.
So around 1999 is the time when CB started to become blatantly homophobic, which is around the same time Tusta had lessening involvement and passed away.
Possibly homosexuals were responsible for the Y2K prediction not coming true. :roll:
Krishna group in Hawaii
Posted by:
just-googling
()
Date: December 31, 2006 08:58AM
Those damn queers! They must have reprogrammed the computers! :lol:
Yes, J. Guru criticizes the merchants for trying to make some money over the Christmas season ... meanwhile he is profiting from the sales of tofu turkeys, non-alcoholic beer, fancy sweetmeats and Christmas turnips as sold at his chain of grocery stores! The followers do not seem to see [b:6acb13963c]the hypocrisy[/b:6acb13963c] here.
:roll:
Yes, J. Guru criticizes the merchants for trying to make some money over the Christmas season ... meanwhile he is profiting from the sales of tofu turkeys, non-alcoholic beer, fancy sweetmeats and Christmas turnips as sold at his chain of grocery stores! The followers do not seem to see [b:6acb13963c]the hypocrisy[/b:6acb13963c] here.
:roll:
Krishna group in Hawaii
Posted by:
zelig
()
Date: December 31, 2006 09:08AM
Quote
emntk
During 94-95 when I was first involved in SOI/ASM the impression I had received was that all forms of illicit sex were against the four regulative principles and there was no hatred specifically towards homosexuality. There was even a disciple who was a known lesbian. So my impression was that homosexuals were accepted but having sex was frowned upon which made being a homosexual rather redundant either way. Homosexuality was rarely even discussed except on a few of Butler's lectures, but nothing major, and his lectures were freely available.
[b:0a0d6bfcdb]True.[/b:0a0d6bfcdb]
There was also more than one lesbian disciple. There had also been a gay man (highly closeted) who managed the first health food store. I do not understand how the homophobia became such an issue. But insanity knows no reason.
Krishna group in Hawaii
Posted by:
cultreporter
()
Date: January 01, 2007 01:18AM
Quote
maui
There is no such thing as "siksa initiation" in the Gaudiya tradition or ISKCON. Maybe you meant "diksa initiation"? A siksa (shiksha) guru is anyone who gives you relevant spiritual teaching at any time. It is said anyone can be a siksa guru to anyone. If you give advice to someone and they take it to heart then you have acted as a siksa guru. Diksa (diksha) guru is a person who properly initiates someone into a tradition through the giving of a mantra and a name, and in some traditions also japa beads and other items depending on the specific type of initiation. It is usually done in a ritual diksa ceremony, like confirmation for catholics.
To anyone that is averse to ISKCON as all Siddha's followers are I would not wonder that what they have in Australia at least could be mistaken for initiation. Last year they introduced a very formalised Siksa program
[www.iskcon.com.au]
There is even a ceremony for Siksa students, where one is 'welcomed' and 'becomes part of ACB's family' although it is not initiation that is given but prayers. Students are encouraged to be 'aspirants' through the Siksa progam, choosing their Spiritual Master and working their way through the prescribed steps to becoming his initiated disciple and taking diksa initiation. To me this seems a strange and distasteful way to approach spiritual life. Streamlining the franchise, sure enlightenment coming right up - and would you like fries with that?
[i:7162b23261][b:7162b23261]It is said anyone can be a siksa guru to anyone. If you give advice to someone and they take it to heart then you have acted as a siksa guru. [/b:7162b23261][/i:7162b23261] I know this is said, but as far as I know it is not said in SOI. I was fortunate enough to have this, but I know that disciples, RKd in particular put a stop to that. Just another example of Siddha being a jealous 'god' and squashing individual's potential to serve Krishna and have a personal relationship with Him.
BTW I got an e-mail from Carol Gabbard which arrived not long after she was the lst name I mentioned on the forum. You can read it here if you like.
[www.xanga.com]
Also there is some info about my spiritual life some pics of me, Bren and Narasingha and ALL my contact details.
So anyone can contact me, make corrections, debate, call me a bitch, tell me to shut the f**k up. You can even click print and burn me in effigy if you like (maybe it would help you regain some of that lost sleep RKd)
Just spare a thought for your own sake to the fact that I have more web space than ASM and SOI and the obviousness of exactly who has stuff to hide.
Krishna group in Hawaii
Posted by:
maui
()
Date: January 01, 2007 06:31AM
Quote
cultreporterQuote
maui
There is no such thing as "siksa initiation" in the Gaudiya tradition or ISKCON. Maybe you meant "diksa initiation"? A siksa (shiksha) guru is anyone who gives you relevant spiritual teaching at any time. It is said anyone can be a siksa guru to anyone. If you give advice to someone and they take it to heart then you have acted as a siksa guru. Diksa (diksha) guru is a person who properly initiates someone into a tradition through the giving of a mantra and a name, and in some traditions also japa beads and other items depending on the specific type of initiation. It is usually done in a ritual diksa ceremony, like confirmation for catholics.
To anyone that is averse to ISKCON as all Siddha's followers are I would not wonder that what they have in Australia at least could be mistaken for initiation. Last year they introduced a very formalised Siksa program
[www.iskcon.com.au]
There is even a ceremony for Siksa students, where one is 'welcomed' and 'becomes part of ACB's family' although it is not initiation that is given but prayers. Students are encouraged to be 'aspirants' through the Siksa progam, choosing their Spiritual Master and working their way through the prescribed steps to becoming his initiated disciple and taking diksa initiation. To me this seems a strange and distasteful way to approach spiritual life. Streamlining the franchise, sure enlightenment coming right up - and would you like fries with that?
I see. That's a program started some years back as an experiment for ISKCON'S "Namhatta" {program for congregational development}. It's supposed to inspire congregational members to become more involved in ISKCON. It's really kind of silly, kind of like offering treats to your dog if he performs tricks. It's never really caught on in ISKCON and is practiced in very few places.
Quote
[i:5a6ced3651][b:5a6ced3651]It is said anyone can be a siksa guru to anyone. If you give advice to someone and they take it to heart then you have acted as a siksa guru. [/b:5a6ced3651][/i:5a6ced3651] I know this is said, but as far as I know it is not said in SOI. I was fortunate enough to have this, but I know that disciples, RKd in particular put a stop to that. Just another example of Siddha being a jealous 'god' and squashing individual's potential to serve Krishna and have a personal relationship with Him.
They can't really put a stop to it if they understand the concept. A siksa guru isn't an official position. If RKd or anyone else is giving a lecture on philosophy or theology then he or they are acting as siksa gurus, it's a subjective concept not an objective position. If someone asks him or you or any other person some question and you answer then you are acting as a siksa guru.
Someone else asked if I was a Siddha disciple, I was not. I have lived in Hawaii on and off since 1978, altogether for over 20 years and it was there where I was exposed to Siddha and his followers through the health food stores, public access t.v., the rare public program they would have, and I had a roomate who was a member. Also I have friends who work at their store in Kahului Maui (non members). I noticed some people wondering about their financing. Their Down to Earth chain of stores/cafes are very successful in Hawaii. They completely dominate the health food and vegetarian market in a place which has a very large demand for those services, not only from the people who live in Hawaii but also from the horde of tourists. They are the only chain of health food stores and vegetarian cafes in Hawaii and they do very very well. That is bringing in a lot of money.
Cara I have a question for you: In ISKCON there is an ongoing phenomena of many members of ISKCON regularly leaving ISKCON either as a full time member or congregational member to go and become a follower of an elderly Indian guru within the tradition such as Narayana Maharaja, Govinda Maharaja, Bhakti Ballabh Tirtha Maharaja, etc. Does this happen with Siddha followers as well?
[www.myspace.com]
Krishna group in Hawaii
Posted by:
zelig
()
Date: January 01, 2007 07:21AM
Nice blog Cara.
Thanks for publishing Carol Gabbard's (?) email. Here's my response to the same old party lines.
Carol Gabbard wrote:
Funny thing. I was threatened with this line too. They told me that things would be horrible if I left the group and spoke out against CB. Total damnation and spiritual death was expected. I really believed it for a long time after I was gone. I kept waiting for the “penny to drop”. It never did. As a matter of fact my life has been getting better and better. And then I began to find ex-disciples whose lives also had improved.
Another thing didn’t happen. I didn’t become a gross materialist, madman, alcoholic, druggie, beeper watch wearing sex addict, nor become involved in another crazy cult; religious, spiritual, psychological, or political!
I found true outlets for my spiritual longings and expressions as well as my desire for service. Of course this will be denied by CB followers. They will claim that none of us ever humbly submitted to the guru or listened to the “Lord in the Heart” in the first place nor can we possibly have made any real spiritual progress in our lives.
Carol Gabbard wrote:
Translation: Only those who are deemed pure in their love for CB are cared for. That is the truth. He is your judge. The rest are deemed unworthy of care, but worthy of stealing their time, money, and energy. If you want to gamble on that, to trust a fallible mortal, then fine, chant and be happy. But be informed and know you will be sacrificing your all to a crook and a liar. It’s your choice.
But Carol, you have lived a materially comfortable life, so it doesn’t really matter does it? And it is quite possible that you imagine that you have served with a pure heart for you to have reaped these rewards.
For careless people, as long as they are well provided for, the deeper questions about truth and ethics are irrelevant. Politics and CB's philosophy really are perfect bedfellows.
Thanks for publishing Carol Gabbard's (?) email. Here's my response to the same old party lines.
Carol Gabbard wrote:
Quote
I am sorry to know that you must be feeling very sad in yourself and far from
Krishna by what you are doing now. The further you proceed the worse this will
get for you. I hope for you that you can realise this before it is too late and
years of your young life are wasted.
Funny thing. I was threatened with this line too. They told me that things would be horrible if I left the group and spoke out against CB. Total damnation and spiritual death was expected. I really believed it for a long time after I was gone. I kept waiting for the “penny to drop”. It never did. As a matter of fact my life has been getting better and better. And then I began to find ex-disciples whose lives also had improved.
Another thing didn’t happen. I didn’t become a gross materialist, madman, alcoholic, druggie, beeper watch wearing sex addict, nor become involved in another crazy cult; religious, spiritual, psychological, or political!
I found true outlets for my spiritual longings and expressions as well as my desire for service. Of course this will be denied by CB followers. They will claim that none of us ever humbly submitted to the guru or listened to the “Lord in the Heart” in the first place nor can we possibly have made any real spiritual progress in our lives.
Carol Gabbard wrote:
Quote
Srila Prabhupada cares very much for His devotees and ensures those who are pure in their love for Krishna are cared for.
Translation: Only those who are deemed pure in their love for CB are cared for. That is the truth. He is your judge. The rest are deemed unworthy of care, but worthy of stealing their time, money, and energy. If you want to gamble on that, to trust a fallible mortal, then fine, chant and be happy. But be informed and know you will be sacrificing your all to a crook and a liar. It’s your choice.
But Carol, you have lived a materially comfortable life, so it doesn’t really matter does it? And it is quite possible that you imagine that you have served with a pure heart for you to have reaped these rewards.
For careless people, as long as they are well provided for, the deeper questions about truth and ethics are irrelevant. Politics and CB's philosophy really are perfect bedfellows.
Krishna group in Hawaii
Posted by:
maui
()
Date: January 01, 2007 08:27AM
Cara in the email you got this was said by Carol Gabbard
That may be true, but my question is: what about those people who knowingly help to prop up a false guru in order to gain some material benefit?
Well the lord in the heart also guided people to leave Siddha. It's an interesting phrase "to progress you need to listen to the lord in the heart". And just how do you propose that people do that? While it is true that a person who is self realized can directly converse with god due in part to their knowledge of god being a part of us, within our consciousness and mind, but for everyone else who is not able to directly converse with god how are they able to distinguish what is the "guidance of the lord within the heart" from something else? For example I could claim that these people who reject Siddha are more sincere then you and because of that sincerity they have been guided by the lord in the heart to abandon Siddha.
Well even if you have many other desires there is always the opportunity to "serve Krishna and love him" whatever that means to you.
Who are you...God's secretary? It is quite preumptuous for a person who is not actually god's personal spokesperson to pretend to be one. It's one thing to teach others what you believe god wants people to learn because of some scriptural teaching. It is another thing entirely to presume to speak for god when it comes to "rewards" for submitting to some person as their disciple. You are in no position to speak for god when it comes to someones choice of guru and how god will treat them if they choose or reject some "guru". If you are not dealing directly with god in the same way that you directly deal with other people, then you shouldn't pretend to be god's spokesperson or a guru on the highest level. Such is the problem not only with you but also with Siddha and many others. You people are not what you claim to be and the only reason you claim to be so exalted is in order to exploit others. You guys know this and I know this and god knows this. Seeking to exploit others by trying to convince them to serve some bogus guru and bogus group through the utilization of Krishna's message as a tool of that exploitation is inviting this backlash. You can fool some of the people some of the time, but the time to pay the piper has arrived.
A guru doesn't have devotees, he has disciples who he teaches to be devoted to god and the path of self realization. Your group has a fraud posing as a guru who seeks to gain devotees for himself, who seeks worship, who get's angry and abusive when his worship isn't done properly. He is the opposite of a guru.
[www.myspace.com]
Quote
Krishna will provide for all those who seek to humbly submit to a bonafide
spiritual master.
That may be true, but my question is: what about those people who knowingly help to prop up a false guru in order to gain some material benefit?
Quote
To progress in spiritual life you need to listen to the Lord
in your heart who guided you to Srila Prabhupada and continue to follow this
despite what hardships you may encounter on the way.
Well the lord in the heart also guided people to leave Siddha. It's an interesting phrase "to progress you need to listen to the lord in the heart". And just how do you propose that people do that? While it is true that a person who is self realized can directly converse with god due in part to their knowledge of god being a part of us, within our consciousness and mind, but for everyone else who is not able to directly converse with god how are they able to distinguish what is the "guidance of the lord within the heart" from something else? For example I could claim that these people who reject Siddha are more sincere then you and because of that sincerity they have been guided by the lord in the heart to abandon Siddha.
Quote
When all your heart desires
is a position to serve Krishna and love Him He will provide it for you.
Well even if you have many other desires there is always the opportunity to "serve Krishna and love him" whatever that means to you.
Quote
Surrender to Krishna through taking shelter of Srila Prabhupada after all you
have gone through will not go unrewarded by the Lord. He only wants for you to
be happy.
Who are you...God's secretary? It is quite preumptuous for a person who is not actually god's personal spokesperson to pretend to be one. It's one thing to teach others what you believe god wants people to learn because of some scriptural teaching. It is another thing entirely to presume to speak for god when it comes to "rewards" for submitting to some person as their disciple. You are in no position to speak for god when it comes to someones choice of guru and how god will treat them if they choose or reject some "guru". If you are not dealing directly with god in the same way that you directly deal with other people, then you shouldn't pretend to be god's spokesperson or a guru on the highest level. Such is the problem not only with you but also with Siddha and many others. You people are not what you claim to be and the only reason you claim to be so exalted is in order to exploit others. You guys know this and I know this and god knows this. Seeking to exploit others by trying to convince them to serve some bogus guru and bogus group through the utilization of Krishna's message as a tool of that exploitation is inviting this backlash. You can fool some of the people some of the time, but the time to pay the piper has arrived.
Quote
Srila Prabhupada cares very much for His devotees and ensures those who are pure
in their love for Krishna are cared for.
A guru doesn't have devotees, he has disciples who he teaches to be devoted to god and the path of self realization. Your group has a fraud posing as a guru who seeks to gain devotees for himself, who seeks worship, who get's angry and abusive when his worship isn't done properly. He is the opposite of a guru.
[www.myspace.com]
Krishna group in Hawaii
Posted by:
emntk
()
Date: January 01, 2007 08:30AM
[www.molokaiadvertiser-news.com]
Dr. Willis Butler Jnr (Physician, Activist, Author) had lived on Molokai and currently lives back in Kailua Oahu if he is still alive. He was alive at 87 in April 2006 so some of the dates Cara posted had refered to Willis P. Butler Snr.
He also took the US of A to court for disallowing a peaceul protest when Nixon visited Hawaii.
In this newsletter there are three photos of him. It mentions the birth of their first baby which suggests there was another. His wife's name is Barbara and Will Butler wrote the book "Barbara - Memoirs of a love affair" which describes the life he shared with his wife of 61 years. Pulished in January this year.
ISBN:1420860917
I'm guessing if this was his father of which the evidence is rather high then this will describe a bit more about Chris Butler's life before the cult. He does seem like a fun loving friendly sort of chap and not at all how CB described him. He left Molokai in 1959 though when CB would have been 11 years old I think. Googling you mentioned Molokai does that mean this could not possibly be him??
Dr. Willis Butler Jnr (Physician, Activist, Author) had lived on Molokai and currently lives back in Kailua Oahu if he is still alive. He was alive at 87 in April 2006 so some of the dates Cara posted had refered to Willis P. Butler Snr.
He also took the US of A to court for disallowing a peaceul protest when Nixon visited Hawaii.
In this newsletter there are three photos of him. It mentions the birth of their first baby which suggests there was another. His wife's name is Barbara and Will Butler wrote the book "Barbara - Memoirs of a love affair" which describes the life he shared with his wife of 61 years. Pulished in January this year.
ISBN:1420860917
I'm guessing if this was his father of which the evidence is rather high then this will describe a bit more about Chris Butler's life before the cult. He does seem like a fun loving friendly sort of chap and not at all how CB described him. He left Molokai in 1959 though when CB would have been 11 years old I think. Googling you mentioned Molokai does that mean this could not possibly be him??
Krishna group in Hawaii
Posted by:
emntk
()
Date: January 01, 2007 08:56AM
[img:9ccad143d6]http://honoluluweekly.com/wp-content/042606bookbarb.jpg[/img:9ccad143d6]
There is quite a resemblance to Chris in Barbara although A book review stated they were raising 4 children although not sure if they were all their own. hmmm..?
There is quite a resemblance to Chris in Barbara although A book review stated they were raising 4 children although not sure if they were all their own. hmmm..?
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