I have had an interest in spirituality for quite a few years so I was interested when I came across an advert online for meditation classes at Australian School of Meditation.

When I sent an e-mail I got a link to the newsletter at Brisbane, eventhough the ad said Gold Coast. I wrote again asking if there were classes closer to me and got a copy of a different newsletter for Nobby's Beach. There was a phone number so I decided to give them a call. I read through the articles on the Brisbane site and didn't mind what I heard. Some of it was a bit strange to me, but I had read a few small books about Krishna before.

Looking back at the Nobby's Beach Centre they were a bit cagey about the enquiry but I figured the guy just had a bad phone manner you know? I was told there was a library that I could read more books from but when I asked they just kept putting me off, yeah sure ask me next week sort of thing. I don't really want to say where I went and when because I would rather they just forget about me.

I figured everyone has a website right? That was how I got here and started reading and a few things starting making really bad sense. Just the way that these people interact just doesn't feel right. Suspicious for no apparent reason. Really judgemental and not at all friendly or approachable. Sometimes they would start talking mentioning things like veggie chips and the farm and then look at me and shut right up. Probably I only noticed because I had read this forum, but I am glad I did. One time they were talking about the guy who broke cultreporter's heart, and let me tell you he has got no friends there. I reckon they would kill him a thousand times over just to get the password to that xanga site. You shoulda chosen the girl!

I caught what they were on about and tried to ask them about this forum and the website and I was told that the girl making it had never even been there and was just making it up. I mean COME ON - surely they could think of something better than that!?! Especially when they had just been talking about it right in front of me! Lame as!!!

I just wanted to say great going to everyone, except that Radha Krishna das - you got royally caned my man!

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cultreporter
With all respect Maui, as I have already indicated that I have for you what you say about ACB is ontlogically incorrect and reading your post I see a bias that is consistent with allegiance with Gaudiya Vaishnavism. This is something I could write extensively on and cross reference however here I aim to keep it brief, and know that some of the points have been raised before by myself and others.

I feel like i am speaking objective truth, I'm not trying to put forth subjective or biased opinions based on an "allegiance".

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If you would ever like to discuss spiritual issues beyond the scope of this thread I would be more than happy to communicate with you and will listen to what you have to say and consider it. I have stated before though that I do not read purports by ACB. The Holy Name is pure and speaks for itself. It is hypocrisy to sugguest that Krishna has perfect knowledge but he needs ACB to tell us what he [i:6e5ed802d9]really[/i:6e5ed802d9] meant to say.

I have never stated that anyone needs to be a disciple of, or study the writings of ACBS, in order to practice and gain the benefits that gaudiya vaishnavism purports to offer. So your claim that I am doing that is unfounded.

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The purports are many times longer than the verse that they address and seek to chritianise Krishna Consciousness, wholly inconsistent with any GV philosophy that I am aware of, completely at odds with Christian writings and having no support in the Scripture where Jesus is never mentioned.

You need to understand the tradition a little bit better.

You say that ACBS's purports are at odds with the gaudiya tradition. I don't think that is the case. The only time that anyone from the tradition has ever contested something he taught as being incosistent with the gaudiya tradition is on the topic of the origin of the soul. But that has been debated and shown to be false.

As for "christianizing" gaudiya teachings; I have no idea what you mean. Maybe you can elaborate.

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[b:6e5ed802d9]One cannot logically or scripturally condemn a disciple of a spiritual master without condemning the spiritual master themselves. [/b:6e5ed802d9]

ACB himself said as is scripturally supported that if one disciple falls down than the spiritual master is not bonafide and 'cheap gurus cheap disciples'.

You are mistaken. He never said or wrote such a thing. If you can show where he did I will retract my statement. It is well known and accepted in the gaudiya tradition that every guru will have many disciples who gave up the path of Krishna Bhakti. I don't know where you got that idea from.

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No one had cheaper disciples than ACB - Tamal Krishna, Kirtananda, Siddhaswarupananda. The whole original GBC - these were his closest and most trusted who had perverted desires for children, attatchment to homosexual sex lives and lust for other men's wives. They were embezzlers, women beaters, rapists and murderers.

It is a misconeption to think that people like Tamal Krishna or Kirtanananda were ACBS's closest and most trusted disciples. In fact Kirtanananda was the first person to be thrown out of ISKCON by ACBS. After he was thrown out he went to West Virginia and started his own ashrama, he then begged ACBS to allow him back in ISKCON. But he was never close to ACBS after that. Tamal Krishna was creating such a mess that he was kicked out of all his responsibilities and told to go to China and stay there by ACBS. So he also was not a close confident. The members of the GBC who were sexual with boys and young men were Kirtanananda and Bhavananda. Bhavananda did not begin his sexual acts with bengali teenage boys and young men until after ACBS died. The other GBC were not homosexuals nor were they child molesters,nor were they women beaters, nor were they having affairs with other mens wives, nor were they rapists nor murderers. Not that ISKCON didn't have members who did do those things, but of the GBC members it was only Kirtanananda and Bhavananda. And even then they did not do anything illegal until after 1977 when ACBS died.

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ACB used snuff, wore expensive Rolex watches and drove around in a gold Mercedes Benz for a start.

He used snuff occaisionally, when asked about that he said he needed it to stay awake all night to do his writing. Which in fact is what he usually was doing every night. He gave away his watches and all gifts, he didn't own any cars, other people would rent cars when he visited and they would drive him around. He had many wealthy followers who would shower him with gifts. But he gave them all away.

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He may have started out in a delapidated shop front but he soon got accustomed to being accomodated in the best and most expensive hotels and country manors transversing the world in his private jet ala Siddhaswarupananda.

He almost never stayed in hotels, only at the very beginning of his return to India. He would always stay in peoples homes or his own rooms in the temples. He did not have a private jet and only travelled commercial air.

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ACB infact shamelessly courted celebrities, and declared the Beatles to have done more for KC than his other disciples

I have never heard that. Can you show some source? He didn't court the Beatles. George Harrison wanted to meet ACBS after he heard about what was going on in San Francisco with the Mantra Rock concerts. The Beatles had just come back from India and George and John (not Paul and Ringo) were into continuing their yoga paths. After George met ACBS and introduced him to John then John invited ACBS and a handful of his disciples to live at his estate "Tittenhurst Park". Which is what they did. John wanted them to build a temple on his property but after a while Yoko didn't want John involved so closely and ACBS left. Other then that ACBS never met any world famous celebrities, never. In India occasionally an Indian celebrity would want to meet him, but there is no record of him trying to meet any celebrity. How many celebrities do you think he met? ISKCON has never had many celebrity followers outside of India. There are a few celebrities who are famous in their own countries who became followers, from countries like Brazil, Venezuela, Italy, Spain, Nigeria, South Africa, India, etc. But as far as world famous celebrities the 2 beatles are the only ones ACBS ever met, well besides Alan Ginsberg, but he wasn't as famous back then as he is now, and it was Ginsberg and the beatles who sought out ACBS not the other way around. In fact the only other world famous follower I can think of is Hayley Mills and her son rock star Crispian Mills. Chrissie Hynde is a gaudiya vaishnava, but she became one long after ACBS died and she is a disciple of Narayana Maharaja.

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Under ACBs guidance Hare Krishnas were considered to be out for money to the extent of being public nuisances and with very good reason. He fully condoned deceptive fundraising, devotees dressing up as Santa Claus for example, and badgering members of the public creating gauntlets at airports and other public places.

You are mistaken. When it was brought to his attention that some decepetive fundraising was going on he told them to stop. "Gauntlets"? That wasn't how it was done. There would be one or two people per terminal.

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ACB was aware of debaunchery in the temples, abuse of wives and child molestation. He denounced Tamal Krishna for cutting down a tulsi tree but he didn't do a thing against the child molestors that he was aware of deeming that the disgusting affair should be handled internally.

He was aware that people were having affairs, what could he do about it? He did what he could to stop abuse of all kinds. But he was an 80 year old man who could not totally control what a society of thousands of people were doing. The child abuse that happened in ISKCON if you read about it occured almost all after he died, in the late 1970s-80's. He was against even spanking children and forbid it. When child abuse was reported to him he kicked the offender out of ISKCON. There are allegations that ACBS did nothing, but those allegations have never been accompanied by any proof.

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As for being an adherent to GV ACB was highly critical of GV referring to his godbrothers among other things non human. It is said that he resolved this before he died, but it this really just another historical convenience neccessary to perptuate that ACB is a saint and keep the KC religion intact. GV wanted nothing to do with him until ISKCON took off and began making money.

When you say GV (gaudiya vaishnavism) what you mean to say is GM (gaudiya math). GV is the name of the whole religion, GM is the name of the organization which ACBS's guru started. Yes he was critical of the GM. But that didn't start until ACBS started temples in India and then members of the GM would try to bad talk ACBS to his disciples in order to gain his wealthy followers. That is well documented.

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As for not wanting worship I have yet to see a picture of an ISKCON temple where there is not a deity of ACB seperate to the altar to be bowed down to. At the Sydney temple there is a large, I guess probably life sized cast likeness presiding over the temple room that it is expected that one bow down and offer their obeisances to and a pair of his shoes in a glass case. Unlike the altar which is closed outside cermonies ACB can be worshipped at any time.

That is the tradition in many Indian religions. See this link [www.akshardham.com] and also this one [www.akshardham.com] And those statues (made of resin) were not made until years after ACBS died.

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It is very well to criticise Siddha, you are not about to see me defending him, but let's not forget who granted him his validation as a guru in the first instance.

ACBS didn't "raise" Siddha. Siddha was in ISKCON for a short periiod.

maui:

Please refrain from preaching.

And this is not a place to post links that profess your beliefs.

I've been interested in the Hare Krishna movement myself in it's authenticity since Cara mentioned a few things to me. Others on this forum have made comments about ACB's behavior and as Siddha is not above reproach neither is anyone else. Apparently he was also poisoned by his own disciples. It is all well and good for you to say that he was an 80 year old man (Although that seems to be a bodily identification of an ordinary human being - hmmm?) and had only partial control over his disciples but this does not make his descisions highly thoughtful in their preconception for a guru who is the external manifestation of the lord in the heart. For a person to be the founder of a cult where one has lost much control and to keep on expanding shows a lack of insight wouldn't you say?

You admitted there was child abuse going on in ISKCON that Bhaktivedanta knew about. Just how long had this occured before he found out? The murders you say happened mostly post-78 but regardless it seems the GBC were not in control either. There was the altering of Bhaktivedanta's books and possibly forging of letters.

Other's mentioned drug dealing to support ISKCON. It was also stated that ACB wrote a letter to Butler stating that he was not take on disciples while ACB was still around (which is by default permittance of Butler thinking he is a guru at that time) and the letters that were given out to ACB's disciples were apparently accepted as an authorization from ACB that they are now bona-fide gurus despite the fact that a guru is never appointed by anyone other than the Supreme.

From what you are saying there was a pure devotee who started a cult that he lost control of and all sorts of criminal and abusive behavior came of that is still occuring today. I'd suggest that there is a lot to delve into when it comes to ISKCON. I'm not sure if it is appropriate to discuss this on the same thread as Butler being it is an extremely large cult but another thread or older thread may be warranted. I wouldn't want people blindly following your conviction that ACB was a perfect teacher when there is so many curious (perhaps even suspicious) features of this cult.

Your objective truth is possibly unbiased but we are sure to find that out? Conscientiously, patiently and concisely.

I know it is hard not to go into details about what you are passionate about. It's easy to get off topic here, but I am interested in the scholarly input of maui as well as cultreporter's insights. Both of you have shown me different angles. Thanks.

I'll be posting some more Sai Speaks excertpts soon. It provides an interesting historical record of the evolution of a cult leader. It is amazing to me to see the photos of Sai casually lounging with students or surrounding him so closely like bees to honey, especially in light of his current reclusiveness. He really used to be that accessible, inspiring and peaceful. Imagine that I once aspired to what I imagined was his level of realization. :oops:

[b:446eb1add8] :?: Psychic Sleep or Hypnotic Suggestion?
:?: Blissful Voyage or Mind Control?
:?: Sound Vibrations from the Spiritual Sky or the Soundtrack of a Psychotic Break?[/b:446eb1add8][/size:446eb1add8]
I think this was CB's first recording. I don't have a copy, but here is the advertisement in Sai Speaks. Evidence of the meditation practice called Psychic Sleep that has been aparently resurrected in CB's Centers in Oz.
[img:446eb1add8]http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j104/Yodaplanet/Sai%20Speaks/saispeakspage54recordad.jpg[/img:446eb1add8]

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rrmoderator
maui:

Please refrain from preaching.

And this is not a place to post links that profess your beliefs.

You removed 3 links. 2 of them were to the writings of other traditions then gaudiya vaishnavism in order to show that what ACBS did in his commentaries was normal and done by all hindu traditions. The other link was simply to show that the claim that ACBS did not stick to the teachings of his own tradition are not true. None of the links were meant to be "preaching". They were all to set the record straight. It is one thing to criticize ACBS for things he did, but if you are going to state things that most everyone in the tradition knows to be false, and then reject the rebuttal, then that can only harm cultreporters credibility. Cultreporter makes so many accusations against Siddha and she wants people in that cult to learn the truth about him, then she makes a bunch of uneducated and misinformed accusations about ACBS that everyone within the tradition knows to be false. So what she is doing is losing credibility in her expose of Siddha to his followers by making so many wrong statements about ACBS. It's about credibility. Luckily there are many other ex followers of Siddha who have come forward.

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just-googling
I remember that Siddha's followers put on a feast to try and woo some political people on Maui. (After all, free food that tasted delicious was a proven way to sway people into your camp, wasn't it???). This was the "Godly Government" agenda at that time... I distinctly remember Siddha told Wayne Nishiki not to say things like "Haribol" to these people - to act like a normal karmi and to hide any affiliation with any kind of Eastern religion. The whole idea was that making money and engaging in politics, if done for Krishna, were just as spiritual as chanting and engaging in worship.

Oh yeah! I had forgotten about that event! They served all kinds of Hawaiian foods (no pig of course!); poi and haupia (coconut pudding), breadfruit, etc. He invited the Hawaiian musician/ artist Maui Loa to play music along with some other mellow, Hawaiian, 'aloha aina' types. CB was trying to recruit the "return the land to the natives" group. It was really a weird affair. All the devotees were instructed to wear nice clothes (tilak wearing was long gone, but hide your neckbeads!) and act "regular". Ha! I became friends with Maui and his girlfriend "Sweetie" and Maui's Dad later. They were really nice people and sniffed out the fanatical religious weirdness early on. Hawaiian nature is very liberal and accepting of differences in general, but have a good nose for phonies and people trying to put one over on them. They would never come out and say they thought you were full of crap, but would quietly withdraw. Maui picked up right away that the whole group was strange. I visited him at his home/studio and they were into Hawaiian spirituality, medicine and language. They taught me a lot before I left the islands. Very cool people. Sharp too, not to let CB use them after that.

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:) Tuko says: "There are two kinds of people in this world - those with spurs and those without spurs." (The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly)

Great movie!

Tukoram says: "There are two kinds of people in this world - those that trouble themselves to seek out true forms of faith and religion and those who make up their own rules." (The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly in the Spiritual Sky)

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maui

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cultreporter
If you would ever like to discuss spiritual issues beyond the scope of this thread I would be more than happy to communicate with you and will listen to what you have to say and consider it. I have stated before though that I do not read purports by ACB. The Holy Name is pure and speaks for itself. It is hypocrisy to sugguest that Krishna has perfect knowledge but he needs ACB to tell us what he [i:09a146bbfa]really[/i:09a146bbfa] meant to say.

I have never stated that anyone needs to be a disciple of, or study the writings of ACBS, in order to practice and gain the benefits that gaudiya vaishnavism purports to offer. So your claim that I am doing that is unfounded.

My original statement by no means sought to single you out and was not intended as a personal attack. The point that I sought to make is that it is accepted by those who read ACB's translations that the purports are valid. You quoted a purport to me so evidently you believe that it is relevant and authorative. Either the words and instructions given by Krishna and the Vaishnavas written as Scripture are perfect or they are not. To sugguest that a four line verse requires a 12 page purport is to make a pretty definite statement that they are not.

As I stated I read Scripture, I have read loads of it, but I do not read the purports. If someone can find the exact same point in the Scripture that has been written in the purport then I will accept it no question. That should not be a difficult task, but often it cannot be done. I have been debating Vaishnavas who have spent many years studying for quite a while. I made a post a while back that showed the difference in translation of a verse of "As It Is" and how a pertinent reference in the purport was not even contained in the origianl verse. At the moment I do not have the time to go through the whole thing to highlight the inconsistencies in the translations and purports. Even if I did the philosophy of disciplic succession and bonafide spiritual masters (not to mention that I am a lowly woman) would ensure noone would read what I had to say anyway.

My interest is primarily in addressing Siddhaswarupananda and I try to maintain an interest in ACB only as far as that he served to validate Siddha by making him a disciple and allowing him to remain a disciple despite the fact that he was a troublemaker within ISKCON who did not accept instuction from the beginning.

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ACBS didn't "raise" Siddha. Siddha was in ISKCON for a short periiod.

Siddha was initiated in July 1971 [www.prabhupada.com]

He left ISKCON in 1978.

If you consider that to be a short while when it is infact over half the time that ACB was present from the foundation of ISKCON (1965) until his death that is up to you. It is true that he was only within ISKCON for a short period before he was initiated. So what we have that is not subject to dispute is that a cocky young upstart impersonalist fronts up to ISKCON with a bag full of money and starry eyed disciples in tow, the largest group to ever join ISKCON, and makes disciple in roughly about 6 months. That he could receive sufficient instruction in that amount of time is even more astounding than his claim to have mastered 4 forms of yoga in less than two years which included the not small tasks of achieving Kunadalini awakening and Brahman realisation. Such feats extend beyond the abilites and achievements of every great Vaishnava. Even Lord Caitanya who was God Himself studied for longer than 6 months and He didn't have the challenges of the imperfections of mere mortals. Either Siddha is the greatest sage to ever grace this earth or a tremendous bullshit artisit. ACB gave Siddha an initiation that he still cashes in on today in validation stakes, turned a blind eye to all the offences that he committed, never even attempting to condemn him.

So far to examine there was the temple selling, the psychic sleep, the taking of his own disciples and putting himself on the altar, falling down with his secretary, numerous complaints about the deviations in his teachings all of which ACB was aware of. [b:09a146bbfa]What did ACB do?[/b:09a146bbfa] Put Siddha in charge of the Hawaiian temple and said "Well he must be ok because everytime I see him he gives me money" refer to The Guru Business by Sulocana das. He even initiated Sai Siddhasvarupa "one who is accomplished in image". It is a nonsense.

Tamal Krishna is condemned by many non-ISKCON devotees and ISKCON reformists as a blasphemor for writing that ACB was senile and attatched and yet the first thing that anyone defending him invariably has to say is that he was an 80 year old man that was too kind.

Your statements about the GBC are also incorrect. When I was a new Bhakta I got a really cool A4 poster from PADA (Prabhupad Anti Defamation Association) of the eleven successor gurus that they were all offenders in the way I stated. I used t have it on my wall when I was in SOI.

Here they all are here : [www.harekrsna.org]

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zelig
I think this was CB's first recording. I don't have a copy, but here is the advertisement in Sai Speaks. Evidence of the meditation practice called Psychic Sleep that has been apparently resurrected in CB's Centers in Oz.

The last class that I ever went to with Australian School of Meditation was on 3rd September 2006. (Although I call the time I left the cult in June 2006 this was really only the time that I was kicked out of my home by the disciples. I was still involved for a few more months after that although being homeless had a bit of an impact on my ability to be as involved)

I didn't get into SOI through the conventional way so I was pretty sheltered from the processes that new people are exposed to. I was in a position to observe them without being directly affected by them. As far as everyone was concerned I was Bren's responsibility. When I was still new I went to a kirtan at Radha Krishna das' house (right into the belly of the beast :lol: ) and during the time when everyone consumes vast amounts of sugar and gossips there was talk about how there was a lack of followers. RKd 'joked' that next week everyone had to adopt a new person just like Brendon had done. I later got a message that I needed to refer to him as to which gatherings to go to. A lot of the time neither of us went to any. Gayatri dasi from Brisbane gave me an ultimatum that I could move out of the house that Bren and I had and be taken care of by the cult or I could stay with him and become a "matyr" because no one really liked him. In her opinion the best thing that he had ever done in his time there was "father a child and bring you in"

He knew well enough that meditation classes were for new people and already knowing about Krishna decided that I had no need to go. We argued about why there was no mention of Krishna etc. I always thought that they should be. I used to cry that 'Srila Prabhupad's' teachings were being kept from people - why how could they ever be saved? :oops: He always stuck to the party lines about people in this age being too ignorant to know Krishna etc. and that this was the best way for most people.

Anyway the Deep Peace class that I went to fit exactly the description of psychic sleep to the letter, which fits exactly to the letter the script for the progressive relaxation method of hypnosis.

How it went was the disciple (Gayatri Dasi) fussed about making sure that everyone was comfortable to lay down on the floor. They have carpet rugs and cushions there and we were suppossed to lay down with our heads on the cushions and one under our legs/feet. Some of the lights were turned off so that the atmosphere pretty dim. There was incense which I remember thinking was unusual because there usually wasn't. It started out with relax your head and progressed down the body parts to the feet. Then with the additon of a background of esoteric music that just started up she began to focus on the mind. By now I was pretty focussed and definitely feeling very relaxed. The guidance started out with 'The Silent Witness' (I don't know what tradition of meditation this comes from or if Siddha made it up. I always liked this reading... I am the silent witness, not the mind because I can watch the mind...) After that point I actually lost consciousness and can't remember anything else until I came to and I felt that the few people that were there (river festival was on in Brisbane, and public transport was a mess so the gathering was very small this evening) were all looking at me and I felt pretty creeped out and a bit disoriented.

What I was told about a few weeks later by Brendon's mother was that I had been banned from ever going to the centre agian because I had referred to SOI as a cult the last time I was there. :? I've been told by a few people that I talk in my sleep and when I used to take meditation classes if I was able to get into a trance state. For a few years I studied Buddhist meditation where it is possible to go into a 'trance' and according to what you believe exerience mystical or psychic experiences. According to her this is what happened at ASM :lol:

With regard to progressive relaxation hypnosis it was developed as a simple method, and is still taught to most psychologists, to achieve behavioural modification by implanting subtle sugguestions in the subconscious during the relaxed state. Popular applications are to attempt to relieve stress headaches, panic attacks, obsessive compulsive tendencies and clinical anxiety. Hypnosis is often questioned on an ethical basis because of the potential to deliberately or unwittingly implant destructive ideas that cause distress or confusion as oppossed to having a beneficial or curative effect.

I personally do not believe that to have Krishna in your mind is a bad thing. My objection to this practice as I have described is the preference in SOI for deception and manipulation above imparting knowledge of and love for God. That Siddha introduced such methods which were contrary to the teachings and wishes of ACB who he claimed to have 'surrendered' to demonstrates arrogance and contempt for those who seek spiritual guidance through him and demonstrates that in his opinion the 'All-attractive' being is not attractive enough to be appealing without coercion.

There is also the consideration of whether if Siddha and his followers consider this to be an acceptable way to treat people what other ideas they may deem to be required for our own good.