Bnei Baruch anyone?
Posted by:
Habibi
()
Date: June 15, 2007 01:52PM
Ok, I would like to add my own personal experience. I am a former student of Bnei Baruch who studied at the organization for over a year. After that time, I came to the conclusion that, even though many of the people I had contact with were very nice people and I had often enjoyed their company and the group’s cohesiveness, I eventually decided to sever contact with this unhealthy group for the following reasons:
1. I realized that so much of my free time was being used to study or disseminate Bnei Baruch work. BB was constantly and endlessly concerned with dissemination of BB material. I was beginning to have no other life and I was already sensing that I would need to give more and more in order to reach spirituality because the idea of the group was for it to unify. (Many of the references on Amazon.com to Laitman’s books actually come from members intent on promoting BB. You can even see that “Markos” in his response on this forum couldn’t help referring to kab.tv, schedule available there even on this cult forum! Also note that he never wrote back!)
2. I was constantly asked to join in more and more BB events despite my already very active participation in the group and I was not compensated for my many hours of work.
3. I began to lose contact with friends and others.
4. I noticed that many of the men at my local group were also extremely involved in dissemination and, despite having full time jobs and family responsibilities; many told me that they only had time for their families one day a week. Wives clamored for more attention as did children but they often did not get it and were told to just deal with it.
5. The men would work full time jobs, sleep for four-five hours and get up to study. They always seemed to be sleep-deprived. In my opinion, this constant state of sleep deprivation made them more susceptible to manipulation on the part of the organization.
6. I learned that Rav Laitman was not a rabbi ordained by any of the Jewish streams, but his students called him “Rav” out of respect. Not once during the time I studied at BB did I ever hear “Rav” Laitman correct this assumption. Laitman’s books and website still refer to him as “Rav”. This is deceptive.
7. People always referred to Laitman as “Rav”, “Rav said such and such”. To normal ears, “Rav” would be followed by a name but here “Rav” by itself was understood to be referring to “the” Rav, “Rav” Laitman.
8. There was general difficulty among members of BB in criticizing Laitman, even constructively. They all seemed to speak of him as if he were a sort of god or Messiah. Many a pair of eyes would light up when the words “Rav” would pass their lips.
9. While the group was officially non-hierarchical, Laitman did have an inner circle which was referred to in hallowed terms by his many dedicated students who seemed to have suspended all rational thought.
10. The BB forum moderators often evaded questions of all types, especially when one could guess that the answer wouldn't be pleasing, but questions having to do with the role of women and homosexuality were dealt with in a kind of double-speak and often ignored or pooh-poohed. Sometimes, I got the impression that certain questions were not welcome; other questions were welcome to a certain point before the moderator would get aggressive. They especially didn't like talking about other "ways'.
11. Though I liked almost all of the Forum Moderators, I thought that Tony Kosinec’s moderating style was abrasive and authoritarian (and he certainly seemed that way outside the forums anyway), and he seemed the least likely of the BB Forum Moderators to give a straight or respectful answer.
12. I later discovered from an independent source that, contrary to BB propaganda, the person designated to succeed Yehuda Ashlag was his grandson Simcha Ashlag, not Michael Laitman.
13. I had a lot of trouble Laitman’s references to an authoritarian Creator “sending beatings” and other afflictions to people as a demonstration of His love and desire to bring them close to Kabbalah. This would be familiar and understandable to people accustomed to such abuse.
14. I didn’t like the dismissive and arrogant way that Laitman responded to some of the students’ questions. One could never predict whether or not a question would be deemed "acceptable" by "Rav" and one could never predict how he would react. He humiliated a fair amount of students during my tenure.
15. I disagreed with BB’s stance that their way was the only way and NO other way was acceptable or even possible.
16. One could only reach “spirituality” (ruchaniut) through a group with BB. The famous refrain of BB was “You need to have the right books (Yehuda Ashlag), the right teacher (Laitman) and the right group (BB)”.
17. Gay men, while officially tolerated in the group, had to have a wife to reach spirituality (they needed a wife to reach spirituality). One gay man was apparently asked to leave the group because he brought up the topic too much. Lesbians were more manageable or something because they were women and just needed to be attached to a group.
18. Women could only reach spirituality through their husband or by being attached to a group. They were just “vessels”.
19. There was no verifiable way to ascertain whether one had attained spirituality or to know what it was like because it was forbidden to ask someone if he had reached spirituality (the reason given was that others might become jealous).
20. I disliked the constant separation of men and women. Men and women would eat separately. The men would sing songs and put their arms around each other but the women did not sing songs or put their arms around each other. Only in the strictest interpretations of Judaism did men and women sit separately. Thus it seemed to me that BB, as a non-religious group, should qualify to allow men and women to sit together but they insisted on the separation.
21. There was a large amount of alcohol consumed at BB events and dinners. Congresses were also full of people addicted to nicotine, as could be heard by the constantly coughing and people always smoking.
22. BB seemed to have its greatest appeal to people who were accustomed to an authoritarian lifestyle. In my opinion, it is this in addition to a quest for spirituality that attracted a large amount of Russians and Israelis (combined, they were perhaps the vast majority). The Russians and Israelis were already used to a communal lifestyle. The Russians had no trouble with groups because many had grown up under Communism. The Israelis had the experience of being in the army and were accustomed to having an authority at their lead.
23. I didn’t like the authoritarian and harsh way some of the BB students interacted with their children.
24. Laitman and the group mindlessly attributed certain characteristics and energies as supposedly inherent in males and females.
25. People in the group were not encouraged to talk about their backgrounds or their personal lives.
26. The group was used in a way to keep the men on track (under control?)
27. People were instructed to ignore the intellect and instead just be present for the lesson. In the lesson, there were many complicated diagrams. I learned that, just because someone speaks over your head, especially about spirituality, doesn't mean he knows anything.
I could go on!!! This is my experience and my opinion regarding my experience with the added benefit of hindsight. There are some very good people there but I need to keep myself sane so I removed myself from the scene.
I think it's important that other former members share their experiences with this forum. I believe that current BB members are not reliable as they seem to want to defend BB and Laitman without really responding to the evidence brought forth, as has been previously established by the moderator of this forum.
1. I realized that so much of my free time was being used to study or disseminate Bnei Baruch work. BB was constantly and endlessly concerned with dissemination of BB material. I was beginning to have no other life and I was already sensing that I would need to give more and more in order to reach spirituality because the idea of the group was for it to unify. (Many of the references on Amazon.com to Laitman’s books actually come from members intent on promoting BB. You can even see that “Markos” in his response on this forum couldn’t help referring to kab.tv, schedule available there even on this cult forum! Also note that he never wrote back!)
2. I was constantly asked to join in more and more BB events despite my already very active participation in the group and I was not compensated for my many hours of work.
3. I began to lose contact with friends and others.
4. I noticed that many of the men at my local group were also extremely involved in dissemination and, despite having full time jobs and family responsibilities; many told me that they only had time for their families one day a week. Wives clamored for more attention as did children but they often did not get it and were told to just deal with it.
5. The men would work full time jobs, sleep for four-five hours and get up to study. They always seemed to be sleep-deprived. In my opinion, this constant state of sleep deprivation made them more susceptible to manipulation on the part of the organization.
6. I learned that Rav Laitman was not a rabbi ordained by any of the Jewish streams, but his students called him “Rav” out of respect. Not once during the time I studied at BB did I ever hear “Rav” Laitman correct this assumption. Laitman’s books and website still refer to him as “Rav”. This is deceptive.
7. People always referred to Laitman as “Rav”, “Rav said such and such”. To normal ears, “Rav” would be followed by a name but here “Rav” by itself was understood to be referring to “the” Rav, “Rav” Laitman.
8. There was general difficulty among members of BB in criticizing Laitman, even constructively. They all seemed to speak of him as if he were a sort of god or Messiah. Many a pair of eyes would light up when the words “Rav” would pass their lips.
9. While the group was officially non-hierarchical, Laitman did have an inner circle which was referred to in hallowed terms by his many dedicated students who seemed to have suspended all rational thought.
10. The BB forum moderators often evaded questions of all types, especially when one could guess that the answer wouldn't be pleasing, but questions having to do with the role of women and homosexuality were dealt with in a kind of double-speak and often ignored or pooh-poohed. Sometimes, I got the impression that certain questions were not welcome; other questions were welcome to a certain point before the moderator would get aggressive. They especially didn't like talking about other "ways'.
11. Though I liked almost all of the Forum Moderators, I thought that Tony Kosinec’s moderating style was abrasive and authoritarian (and he certainly seemed that way outside the forums anyway), and he seemed the least likely of the BB Forum Moderators to give a straight or respectful answer.
12. I later discovered from an independent source that, contrary to BB propaganda, the person designated to succeed Yehuda Ashlag was his grandson Simcha Ashlag, not Michael Laitman.
13. I had a lot of trouble Laitman’s references to an authoritarian Creator “sending beatings” and other afflictions to people as a demonstration of His love and desire to bring them close to Kabbalah. This would be familiar and understandable to people accustomed to such abuse.
14. I didn’t like the dismissive and arrogant way that Laitman responded to some of the students’ questions. One could never predict whether or not a question would be deemed "acceptable" by "Rav" and one could never predict how he would react. He humiliated a fair amount of students during my tenure.
15. I disagreed with BB’s stance that their way was the only way and NO other way was acceptable or even possible.
16. One could only reach “spirituality” (ruchaniut) through a group with BB. The famous refrain of BB was “You need to have the right books (Yehuda Ashlag), the right teacher (Laitman) and the right group (BB)”.
17. Gay men, while officially tolerated in the group, had to have a wife to reach spirituality (they needed a wife to reach spirituality). One gay man was apparently asked to leave the group because he brought up the topic too much. Lesbians were more manageable or something because they were women and just needed to be attached to a group.
18. Women could only reach spirituality through their husband or by being attached to a group. They were just “vessels”.
19. There was no verifiable way to ascertain whether one had attained spirituality or to know what it was like because it was forbidden to ask someone if he had reached spirituality (the reason given was that others might become jealous).
20. I disliked the constant separation of men and women. Men and women would eat separately. The men would sing songs and put their arms around each other but the women did not sing songs or put their arms around each other. Only in the strictest interpretations of Judaism did men and women sit separately. Thus it seemed to me that BB, as a non-religious group, should qualify to allow men and women to sit together but they insisted on the separation.
21. There was a large amount of alcohol consumed at BB events and dinners. Congresses were also full of people addicted to nicotine, as could be heard by the constantly coughing and people always smoking.
22. BB seemed to have its greatest appeal to people who were accustomed to an authoritarian lifestyle. In my opinion, it is this in addition to a quest for spirituality that attracted a large amount of Russians and Israelis (combined, they were perhaps the vast majority). The Russians and Israelis were already used to a communal lifestyle. The Russians had no trouble with groups because many had grown up under Communism. The Israelis had the experience of being in the army and were accustomed to having an authority at their lead.
23. I didn’t like the authoritarian and harsh way some of the BB students interacted with their children.
24. Laitman and the group mindlessly attributed certain characteristics and energies as supposedly inherent in males and females.
25. People in the group were not encouraged to talk about their backgrounds or their personal lives.
26. The group was used in a way to keep the men on track (under control?)
27. People were instructed to ignore the intellect and instead just be present for the lesson. In the lesson, there were many complicated diagrams. I learned that, just because someone speaks over your head, especially about spirituality, doesn't mean he knows anything.
I could go on!!! This is my experience and my opinion regarding my experience with the added benefit of hindsight. There are some very good people there but I need to keep myself sane so I removed myself from the scene.
I think it's important that other former members share their experiences with this forum. I believe that current BB members are not reliable as they seem to want to defend BB and Laitman without really responding to the evidence brought forth, as has been previously established by the moderator of this forum.
Bnei Baruch anyone?
Posted by:
Habibi
()
Date: June 16, 2007 12:06AM
Just for the record, I would like to state that I believe that Bnei Baruch is a cult. I don’t expect everyone to agree with me but it is my opinion.
I thought I’d add that women in BB ideology are considered to be more “corrected” than the men. This is the reason that the men have to study so much: to correct their ego-centered desires. A woman is created less “egotistical” than men. This was the reason given that women shouldn’t study. That way they could dedicate themselves to their families and any remaining free time to…you guessed it…Bnei Baruch dissemination! But I guess they’re not so ego-less after all because even “Pnina” on this forum says that:
This to me raises other issues: one, it’s yet another instance of how BB are promoting their version of the “Kabbalah” in this forum; two, there is the inbuilt idea all problems are caused by the “ego”; and three, those who leave are considered to be following their “ego” which have increased in size so as to cause them to leave. I hasten to add that, according to Laitman, BB students are free to leave and come back as they wish, however those who leave for good do so knowing that, since BB is the only way to spirituality on earth, they are forever forfeiting their possibly once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to achieve spirituality. Given the immense pressure this knowledge causes, why would any believer leave – for what motive? Unless they somehow have the strength to see through the manipulation and attempt to control they are chained to the group by their belief in BB’s uniqueness. They know that by leaving they are possibly causing irreparable damage to their current spiritual life. Is this really “freedom” to leave or is it just lip service?
But wait, there’s more manipulation! Once, when I chose to dedicate myself to a personal endeavor, I was met with the disapproval of several members of the group and attempts to make me feel guilty. Attempts to induce guilt are controlling by their very nature and belong more in the realm of dysfunctional groups than healthy ones.
There is constant pressure at BB to get married and there are many “shidduchim” in Bnei Baruch. Men can’t reach spirituality without being married anyway. Russians and Israelis are used to an ingrained marriage-oriented culture so they find it normal.
BB students have their egos massaged both simply by being members of BB and also when they are disseminating material. As members of BB, they enjoy the distinct status of being the chosen people of the “Chosen People” (i.e. the Jews). They’re told not to get too invested in the idea of being the chosen people of the Chosen People because they are only instruments of the Creator anyway. In my opinion, even not being invested in the fact that you’re not egotistical IS egotistical by itself!!
Dear Former Members of Bnei Baruch, I appeal to you to come forward with your stories and experiences. There is a dearth of information critical of BB on the web and elsewhere. I know that Laitman doesn’t care that outsiders consider his group a cult and that he downplays those allegations, but others need to hear from you! Your stories are sorely needed as a balance to BB’s propaganda and for others to identify with. You can sign up anonymously on this forum.
I thought I’d add that women in BB ideology are considered to be more “corrected” than the men. This is the reason that the men have to study so much: to correct their ego-centered desires. A woman is created less “egotistical” than men. This was the reason given that women shouldn’t study. That way they could dedicate themselves to their families and any remaining free time to…you guessed it…Bnei Baruch dissemination! But I guess they’re not so ego-less after all because even “Pnina” on this forum says that:
Quote
You will know from experience, Renee that the women's groups are full of EGOs bumping up against each other constantly. Sounds like that member's wife was in the middle of some serious ego bumping and decided to hightale it.
This to me raises other issues: one, it’s yet another instance of how BB are promoting their version of the “Kabbalah” in this forum; two, there is the inbuilt idea all problems are caused by the “ego”; and three, those who leave are considered to be following their “ego” which have increased in size so as to cause them to leave. I hasten to add that, according to Laitman, BB students are free to leave and come back as they wish, however those who leave for good do so knowing that, since BB is the only way to spirituality on earth, they are forever forfeiting their possibly once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to achieve spirituality. Given the immense pressure this knowledge causes, why would any believer leave – for what motive? Unless they somehow have the strength to see through the manipulation and attempt to control they are chained to the group by their belief in BB’s uniqueness. They know that by leaving they are possibly causing irreparable damage to their current spiritual life. Is this really “freedom” to leave or is it just lip service?
But wait, there’s more manipulation! Once, when I chose to dedicate myself to a personal endeavor, I was met with the disapproval of several members of the group and attempts to make me feel guilty. Attempts to induce guilt are controlling by their very nature and belong more in the realm of dysfunctional groups than healthy ones.
There is constant pressure at BB to get married and there are many “shidduchim” in Bnei Baruch. Men can’t reach spirituality without being married anyway. Russians and Israelis are used to an ingrained marriage-oriented culture so they find it normal.
BB students have their egos massaged both simply by being members of BB and also when they are disseminating material. As members of BB, they enjoy the distinct status of being the chosen people of the “Chosen People” (i.e. the Jews). They’re told not to get too invested in the idea of being the chosen people of the Chosen People because they are only instruments of the Creator anyway. In my opinion, even not being invested in the fact that you’re not egotistical IS egotistical by itself!!
Dear Former Members of Bnei Baruch, I appeal to you to come forward with your stories and experiences. There is a dearth of information critical of BB on the web and elsewhere. I know that Laitman doesn’t care that outsiders consider his group a cult and that he downplays those allegations, but others need to hear from you! Your stories are sorely needed as a balance to BB’s propaganda and for others to identify with. You can sign up anonymously on this forum.
Bnei Baruch anyone?
Posted by:
skippypb
()
Date: June 16, 2007 04:07AM
I signed up on the new BB board a little while back. I haven't posted anything there, at least not yet, but I have read a number of the questions/answers and I am alarmed. I swear things were not this out of hand in the past, although it seems from others' experiences that they really were this out of hand all along. Signing up is free and easy, so anyone can check out this board and verify this as truth (except for parts that deal with my own history, which is older than the board). I'm going to fall Habibi's excellent post, hence the awkward numbering.
1. I don't see evidence of anyone being openly pushed to disseminate BB material, yet the new members seem to be quite fond of the idea.
4. I was directed to a local group where members traveled over an hour each way every day to study. Of course it was men only.
5. The late night studying is viewed as practically a requirement for serious students. The pressure doesn't appear to be outright, but if it is clearly stated that only serious students make progress, and serious students study at night, put two and two together.
6. I don't remember which book but the translators do note that Rav Laitman is not a rabbi and that the rav title was given by his students as a sign of respect. It was only one book, but it's something.
7. Ironically the Kabbalah Centre students also refer to their rav as simply "Rav" as do Philip Berg's wife and sons.
8. There is absolutely no criticism of Rav Laitman. Not too long ago there was something about Rav Laitman doing a special lecture. I watched it for shits and giggles and thought it was very boring, basic, and something anyone from BB could have done, yet it was repeatedly praised afterwards for all of the light it attracted and what an amazing experience it was.
9. "Faith above reason" is constantly spoken of, yet it's allegedly the "science" of kabbalah. "Faith" and "science" don't mix because science is based on fact, not on faith.
10. I also noticed that the moderators would avoid certain questions, especially pertaining women and homosexuality, but they were usually backed into a corner and had to give the unpleasant answer eventually. A couple of students continued questioning where the actual proof to their answers was, and eventually got to the point that the moderators stopped answering, choosing to instead give half-assed comments like "you'll see later."
11. I have spoken of my disdain for Tony before. "Abrasive and authoritarian" is indeed the best way to describe it. Tony definitely gets a kick out of being in charge. His personality spews venom and he is a disgusting spiritual leader. But I suppose he serves a valuable purpose to the organization.
12. Habibi, did you mean Baruch Ashlag? (As Laitman never studied under Yehuda)
15. Very recently I read some post regarding eastern religions, and they were given some credit for attaining lower levels of spirituality. I thought it was pretty impressive that the moderators bent that far. But still, absolutely no other path would reach the higher levels. That's fine and dandy by me, except it contradicts the fact that the Torah, Zohar, and TES are three different paths that all lead to the same place.
16. Another very recent post dealt with the right texts. TonyK actually said that no one needed any non-Laitman texts at this point (or for years to come), even though BB's own list of right texts does not include Laitman in their list of approved authors. Odd. In the most outrageous post I've seen, a student actually called out Tony on the fact that no student or teacher has reached spirituality, so how can Tony say that once the students reach spirituality then the right texts will appear? I laughed hysterically at the post, but unfortunately Tony never replied.
17. It is a very antigay group which I find funny. Being antigay contradicts everything they teach.
18. The sweeping generalizations about men and women are ridiculous. Women are supposedly natural caregivers (plenty of people with bad mothers could argue this). Women also get along better (apparently Laitman has never seen a cat fight......I would argue that men get along better).
19. You can tell from the responses by moderators that absolutely no one has attained spirituality through their method. One presumes that Laitman must have, but if you look carefully at his words, there is no evidence to suggest that he has either.
22. I want to argue that BB has its greatest appeal to the less intelligent people. I do not mean this as an insult, but as a valid point. Months ago I chatted online with a BB student who couldn't understand the most basic texts or graphics. I seriously couldn't believe that the student couldn't grasp anything. But the student was determined, because BB teaches that you don't have to understand, that only your efforts matter. I only attended one other lecture this year. I had switched myself over to being an intermediate student and watched a lecture by Igal. To my horror, the lesson stalled as question after question poured in about the most basic, simple things. No progress was made for nearly half an hour, so I shut it off. The students really didn't "get it." Imagine spending thirty minutes explaining how a dog walked down the street and you'll get an idea for how simple and unimportant it was.
23. I don't think poor child-rearing is limited to BB in any way. Someone will always have a problem with the way someone else raises their children.
*** A new point: I've seen BB stuff for two years now and I noticed that other than the moderators, there are no consistent members. People come, people get involved, and people leave. I can't find anyone on the boards today who was there even one year ago. So fortunately BB is unable to keep their members, outside of the few in positions of "power."
1. I don't see evidence of anyone being openly pushed to disseminate BB material, yet the new members seem to be quite fond of the idea.
4. I was directed to a local group where members traveled over an hour each way every day to study. Of course it was men only.
5. The late night studying is viewed as practically a requirement for serious students. The pressure doesn't appear to be outright, but if it is clearly stated that only serious students make progress, and serious students study at night, put two and two together.
6. I don't remember which book but the translators do note that Rav Laitman is not a rabbi and that the rav title was given by his students as a sign of respect. It was only one book, but it's something.
7. Ironically the Kabbalah Centre students also refer to their rav as simply "Rav" as do Philip Berg's wife and sons.
8. There is absolutely no criticism of Rav Laitman. Not too long ago there was something about Rav Laitman doing a special lecture. I watched it for shits and giggles and thought it was very boring, basic, and something anyone from BB could have done, yet it was repeatedly praised afterwards for all of the light it attracted and what an amazing experience it was.
9. "Faith above reason" is constantly spoken of, yet it's allegedly the "science" of kabbalah. "Faith" and "science" don't mix because science is based on fact, not on faith.
10. I also noticed that the moderators would avoid certain questions, especially pertaining women and homosexuality, but they were usually backed into a corner and had to give the unpleasant answer eventually. A couple of students continued questioning where the actual proof to their answers was, and eventually got to the point that the moderators stopped answering, choosing to instead give half-assed comments like "you'll see later."
11. I have spoken of my disdain for Tony before. "Abrasive and authoritarian" is indeed the best way to describe it. Tony definitely gets a kick out of being in charge. His personality spews venom and he is a disgusting spiritual leader. But I suppose he serves a valuable purpose to the organization.
12. Habibi, did you mean Baruch Ashlag? (As Laitman never studied under Yehuda)
15. Very recently I read some post regarding eastern religions, and they were given some credit for attaining lower levels of spirituality. I thought it was pretty impressive that the moderators bent that far. But still, absolutely no other path would reach the higher levels. That's fine and dandy by me, except it contradicts the fact that the Torah, Zohar, and TES are three different paths that all lead to the same place.
16. Another very recent post dealt with the right texts. TonyK actually said that no one needed any non-Laitman texts at this point (or for years to come), even though BB's own list of right texts does not include Laitman in their list of approved authors. Odd. In the most outrageous post I've seen, a student actually called out Tony on the fact that no student or teacher has reached spirituality, so how can Tony say that once the students reach spirituality then the right texts will appear? I laughed hysterically at the post, but unfortunately Tony never replied.
17. It is a very antigay group which I find funny. Being antigay contradicts everything they teach.
18. The sweeping generalizations about men and women are ridiculous. Women are supposedly natural caregivers (plenty of people with bad mothers could argue this). Women also get along better (apparently Laitman has never seen a cat fight......I would argue that men get along better).
19. You can tell from the responses by moderators that absolutely no one has attained spirituality through their method. One presumes that Laitman must have, but if you look carefully at his words, there is no evidence to suggest that he has either.
22. I want to argue that BB has its greatest appeal to the less intelligent people. I do not mean this as an insult, but as a valid point. Months ago I chatted online with a BB student who couldn't understand the most basic texts or graphics. I seriously couldn't believe that the student couldn't grasp anything. But the student was determined, because BB teaches that you don't have to understand, that only your efforts matter. I only attended one other lecture this year. I had switched myself over to being an intermediate student and watched a lecture by Igal. To my horror, the lesson stalled as question after question poured in about the most basic, simple things. No progress was made for nearly half an hour, so I shut it off. The students really didn't "get it." Imagine spending thirty minutes explaining how a dog walked down the street and you'll get an idea for how simple and unimportant it was.
23. I don't think poor child-rearing is limited to BB in any way. Someone will always have a problem with the way someone else raises their children.
*** A new point: I've seen BB stuff for two years now and I noticed that other than the moderators, there are no consistent members. People come, people get involved, and people leave. I can't find anyone on the boards today who was there even one year ago. So fortunately BB is unable to keep their members, outside of the few in positions of "power."
Bnei Baruch anyone?
Posted by:
Habibi
()
Date: June 17, 2007 01:39PM
Thank you very much for your feedback, Skippy. I’d like to touch on a couple of things you brought up.
No one is officially [i:22d505b045]pushed [/i:22d505b045]to do anything in Bnei Baruch. The problem is, and anyone who has studied at BB knows this, that in order to advance spiritually and “attract the surrounding light” to your endeavors, you need to be involved in dissemination work. Naturally, the more work you do, the more light you attract and the more accelerated your spiritual evolution, just like in the case of late night studying that you mentioned.. There is a subtle but quite perceptible pressure to relentlessly disseminate material.
I wasn’t aware of this translators note and you’re right it is something but unfortunately it is still falls far short of what I consider to be spiritual or even non-spiritual integrity. One who has not been ordained a rabbi should not be passing himself off as one to unsuspecting audiences - especially when these unsuspecting audiences are interested in acquiring books and CDs. "Rav" is not a "Rav" in the eyes of many unsuspecting people and to state that he is without any disclaimer is very dishonest - pure and simple!
Furthermore, I think it is especially important for spiritual groups to be very clear and forthright about their financial dealings. I think that this is the reason why the moderator was insisting on balance sheets or independent auditors' reports earlier in the discussion. I just can't imagine that BB would really get outside auditors to audit their accounts...if they were members of BB, well maybe then :lol:
In general, I think that secrecy is breeding ground for all kinds of inaccuracies as well as outright lies. Who’s to know which is which? The previous answers provided by BB representatives regarding finances were vague and convoluted.
As an aside, perhaps the moderator would like to ask where the monies collected in the annual Congresses in Israel and throughout the world have been going? Thousands of people came from all over the world to these events and they all paid good money to go. Where did this money go? I am not necessarily implying that BB did anything suspicious with these funds but the fact that there are not officially published and audited (even un-audited!) accounts is a matter of grave concern. The public has a right to know. It's safe to assume that, unless someone from BB clearly indicates to the contrary, there is obviously little or no financial transparency at BB. Is this honest for a spiritual organization that wants to assist all of mankind in its spiritual elevation?
You're right, Skippy. Laitman studied under Baruch Ashlag, not Yehuda, since the latter died years before Laitman arrived in Israel. What I meant to say is that I learned that the Ashlagian torch was passed to Simcha Ashlag who is the grandson of Yehuda Ashlag - it didn't go to Michael Laitman as he and BB are fond of saying.
I'd also like to add, and I have no way of proving this, but I would suspect that people were primed by the parenting and cultures to unquestioningly accept Laitman as their leader. Children who are raised in functional families - and I would gather that many or most of the people at BB were not - would very quickly see through the leader and group manipulation. I know this, because I know people who saw through the game very quickly.
I believe it. There are still quite a few hangers-on though :) Do you know what happened to the community forum with all the questions people ask about Kabbalah on the kabbalah.info website? I can't seem to find it.
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1. I don't see evidence of anyone being openly pushed to disseminate BB material, yet the new members seem to be quite fond of the idea.
No one is officially [i:22d505b045]pushed [/i:22d505b045]to do anything in Bnei Baruch. The problem is, and anyone who has studied at BB knows this, that in order to advance spiritually and “attract the surrounding light” to your endeavors, you need to be involved in dissemination work. Naturally, the more work you do, the more light you attract and the more accelerated your spiritual evolution, just like in the case of late night studying that you mentioned.. There is a subtle but quite perceptible pressure to relentlessly disseminate material.
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6. I don't remember which book but the translators do note that Rav Laitman is not a rabbi and that the rav title was given by his students as a sign of respect. It was only one book, but it's something.
I wasn’t aware of this translators note and you’re right it is something but unfortunately it is still falls far short of what I consider to be spiritual or even non-spiritual integrity. One who has not been ordained a rabbi should not be passing himself off as one to unsuspecting audiences - especially when these unsuspecting audiences are interested in acquiring books and CDs. "Rav" is not a "Rav" in the eyes of many unsuspecting people and to state that he is without any disclaimer is very dishonest - pure and simple!
Furthermore, I think it is especially important for spiritual groups to be very clear and forthright about their financial dealings. I think that this is the reason why the moderator was insisting on balance sheets or independent auditors' reports earlier in the discussion. I just can't imagine that BB would really get outside auditors to audit their accounts...if they were members of BB, well maybe then :lol:
In general, I think that secrecy is breeding ground for all kinds of inaccuracies as well as outright lies. Who’s to know which is which? The previous answers provided by BB representatives regarding finances were vague and convoluted.
As an aside, perhaps the moderator would like to ask where the monies collected in the annual Congresses in Israel and throughout the world have been going? Thousands of people came from all over the world to these events and they all paid good money to go. Where did this money go? I am not necessarily implying that BB did anything suspicious with these funds but the fact that there are not officially published and audited (even un-audited!) accounts is a matter of grave concern. The public has a right to know. It's safe to assume that, unless someone from BB clearly indicates to the contrary, there is obviously little or no financial transparency at BB. Is this honest for a spiritual organization that wants to assist all of mankind in its spiritual elevation?
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12. Habibi, did you mean Baruch Ashlag? (As Laitman never studied under Yehuda)
You're right, Skippy. Laitman studied under Baruch Ashlag, not Yehuda, since the latter died years before Laitman arrived in Israel. What I meant to say is that I learned that the Ashlagian torch was passed to Simcha Ashlag who is the grandson of Yehuda Ashlag - it didn't go to Michael Laitman as he and BB are fond of saying.
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22. I want to argue that BB has its greatest appeal to the less intelligent people.
I'd also like to add, and I have no way of proving this, but I would suspect that people were primed by the parenting and cultures to unquestioningly accept Laitman as their leader. Children who are raised in functional families - and I would gather that many or most of the people at BB were not - would very quickly see through the leader and group manipulation. I know this, because I know people who saw through the game very quickly.
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*** A new point: I've seen BB stuff for two years now and I noticed that other than the moderators, there are no consistent members. People come, people get involved, and people leave. I can't find anyone on the boards today who was there even one year ago. So fortunately BB is unable to keep their members, outside of the few in positions of "power."
I believe it. There are still quite a few hangers-on though :) Do you know what happened to the community forum with all the questions people ask about Kabbalah on the kabbalah.info website? I can't seem to find it.
Bnei Baruch anyone?
Posted by:
skippypb
()
Date: June 17, 2007 10:17PM
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HabibiQuote
*** A new point: I've seen BB stuff for two years now and I noticed that other than the moderators, there are no consistent members. People come, people get involved, and people leave. I can't find anyone on the boards today who was there even one year ago. So fortunately BB is unable to keep their members, outside of the few in positions of "power."
I believe it. There are still quite a few hangers-on though :) Do you know what happened to the community forum with all the questions people ask about Kabbalah on the kabbalah.info website? I can't seem to find it.
I used to have that forum directly bookmarked. It now automatically forwards you to the new website. Interestingly, the last post on the forum was questioning the BB link to Zionism... it wasn't presented in a negative light, but it went unanswered.
Bnei Baruch anyone?
Posted by:
Habibi
()
Date: June 18, 2007 12:42AM
Hmmm...that's interesting. I had a good look around on the BB website and I couldn't find the community forum where people normally ask questions. If it's been removed, that would certainly be very interesting since many of the online discussions we've been referring to are stored there. I wonder...has the evidence been destroyed???
Bnei Baruch anyone?
Posted by:
skippypb
()
Date: June 18, 2007 11:32AM
The worst evidence was destroyed a long time ago. The forum you are speaking of was heavily moderated (nothing could be posted without approval first). The less-moderated forum is still around and anyone can post anything at anytime without approval. Some posts are locked or deleted if they stray. To access the new forum you must register at arionline.info, sign in, and then go to Virtual Classroom ----> Student Forum. There is also an intermediate forum, but that requires going to My Profile and selecting the bullet that says you've already gone through the beginner courses. Then when you go to the Student Forum you can see the intermediate forum. Because it isn't as heavily moderated beforehand, you'll find a lot of harsh comments and criticisms from the moderators to try to keep people in line. Fortunately, many people stand up to the moderators and call them out on their rudeness. Unfortunately, the vast majority apologize for being insolent and promise to try to do better. BB has actually stated in the past that being rude is actually a side-effect of spiritual attainment because rudeness is the ego fighting back against bestowal. It's shocking that it doesn't alarm more people that they're being taught that rudeness is a good thing.
Bnei Baruch anyone?
Posted by:
jaim
()
Date: June 18, 2007 01:15PM
incidentally regarding their forum:
I have been banned from it numerous times, for commiting the crime of pointing out differences between Rabbi Baruch's methods and Laitman's methods.
I have been banned from it numerous times, for commiting the crime of pointing out differences between Rabbi Baruch's methods and Laitman's methods.
Bnei Baruch anyone?
Posted by:
Habibi
()
Date: June 19, 2007 05:32AM
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...being rude is actually a side-effect of spiritual attainment because rudeness is the ego fighting back against bestowal. It's shocking that it doesn't alarm more people that they're being taught that rudeness is a good thing.
I always had qualms with this type of belief and similar ones touted by BB. These beliefs encouraged people to mistreat each other. For example, I remember one of the student teachers responding in a very rude way and humiliating to one of the questions asked during a live lesson when "Rav" wasn't there. This kind of scornful attitude, which had nothing to do with the questioner who in my mind had asked a perfectly reasonable question, was modeled by Laitman. My understanding of basic Jewish law is that you're not supposed to humiliate a person, especially in public!
It's also disappointing, but not in the least bit surprising that the forum I was referring to [i:11ec83996d]disappeared[/i:11ec83996d] although I don't think I'm going to set up another profile...
By the way, I had occasion to read some of you and Jaim's other posts like the one in this thread:
[board.culteducation.com]
where Jaim sets forth these excellent and succinct points:
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Your question puzzles me. What ISN'T dangerous about BB?
1. They lie about who they are and what their purpose is. They transmit a false initial image of themselves and their objectives.
2. They cultivate exclusivness: only they know the truth' only through their method one can develop, only their leader is special, etc.
3. They scare you:if people won't start learning Kabbalah, this that and the other will happen, the world will only solve all its problems through Kabbalah, or else!
4. They embrace you quickly and love you very much, while suggesting you should give up relationships with people who are not as "spiritual" as yourself (hence anyone outside BB).
5. They control information: reading other books that are not Kabbalah books will confuse you, you should not talk about what goes on in the group reunions with people outside the group, etc.
6. The friends that love you so much will inform their leaders if you speak your mind against something within the organization. This behaviour is seen as positive.
7. Your time is theirs. Wake up before dawn to study, you must work, you must attend all BB activities, you should contribute to spreading Kabbalah.
That pretty much sums up what a cult is, and you will find plenty of all of this at BB.
All of those points resonate with me and my experience. I remember that I decided to keep things very quiet because there seemed to be a [b:11ec83996d]snitch system[/b:11ec83996d] going on in BB. Once I met one of the group leaders who lived thousands of miles away from me, but he let me know that he knew all the dirt on me - how good a student I was, if I was absent, etc.
There were other times that I confided in one friend something and others in the group would then know about it...
Do you guys have any experiences of this kind of [b:11ec83996d]snitch system[/b:11ec83996d]?
Bnei Baruch anyone?
Posted by:
din
()
Date: June 20, 2007 05:04PM
Please forgive my bad English, I will try to give my opinion on the subject:
1. Kabbalah is a very complicated subject, I have read many original Kabbalah books, The Bahir, Sefer Yetzirah, Sefer HaZohar, and also learned from the writings of many Kabbalist Sages such as Ramban, The Maharal, The Ari, Ramchal, and of course Yehuda Ashlag texts also.
2. I am not a Rabbi, just a student, like many of you.
3. I spent also around 800 hours listening to Michael Laitman on the internet, and reading BB material, so that gives me a good idea on the teachings.
4. I would not recommend to anyone to start studying Kabbalah in a group such as the Kabbalah Center or Bnei Baruch, as Habibi said, is unhealthy for most of the people.
5. There are several reasons why, but it is more than enough to point out the authoritarian character of the leader and the lack of respect to students.
6. Kabbalah is meant to be teached or even transfered to each person by his Rabbi, and should be done extremely careful, Teacher and student need to be very close, respect each other and have a profound knowledge of who exactly is the student, in order to guide him in perfecting his character and keep growing on a spiritual path, that is my humble opinion.
7. Massive Kabbalah is like learning brain surgery by mail, one thing is to read or repeat words over and over again, and the other is understanding how each word relates to you in this world and now.
8. An example of what I am saying can be found in the book Shaar Haguilgulim of Rabbi Yitzchak Luria, the Ari.
Thank you, and have a wonderful life.
1. Kabbalah is a very complicated subject, I have read many original Kabbalah books, The Bahir, Sefer Yetzirah, Sefer HaZohar, and also learned from the writings of many Kabbalist Sages such as Ramban, The Maharal, The Ari, Ramchal, and of course Yehuda Ashlag texts also.
2. I am not a Rabbi, just a student, like many of you.
3. I spent also around 800 hours listening to Michael Laitman on the internet, and reading BB material, so that gives me a good idea on the teachings.
4. I would not recommend to anyone to start studying Kabbalah in a group such as the Kabbalah Center or Bnei Baruch, as Habibi said, is unhealthy for most of the people.
5. There are several reasons why, but it is more than enough to point out the authoritarian character of the leader and the lack of respect to students.
6. Kabbalah is meant to be teached or even transfered to each person by his Rabbi, and should be done extremely careful, Teacher and student need to be very close, respect each other and have a profound knowledge of who exactly is the student, in order to guide him in perfecting his character and keep growing on a spiritual path, that is my humble opinion.
7. Massive Kabbalah is like learning brain surgery by mail, one thing is to read or repeat words over and over again, and the other is understanding how each word relates to you in this world and now.
8. An example of what I am saying can be found in the book Shaar Haguilgulim of Rabbi Yitzchak Luria, the Ari.
Thank you, and have a wonderful life.
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